Zimmerman Trial

Quote: AZDuffman

If he was being punched side to side that is totally possible that there was not a serious mark. Still, Martin attacked him. Are you saying it is OK to attack a person?

Guess this isn't serious enough for Bingo.



If somebody did this to Bingo, I highly doubt that he'd just sit there and take it. (I'm waiting for his ED argument now)

Quote: Beethoven9th

Guess this isn't serious enough for Bingo.



If somebody did this to Bingo, I highly doubt that he'd just sit there and take it. (I'm waiting for his ED argument now)

If you think these are serious injuries from a fist fight, you have lived a very sheltered life.

Quote: CS94

If you think these are serious injuries from a fist fight, you have lived a very sheltered life.

So I suppose that if someone were on top of you "MMA style" and pounding your head, you would lay on your back and take it?????

If so, then you have lived a very unbelievable life.

(BTW, did you even bother to read the post I was replying to? My guess is that you didn't because the person had implied that Zimmerman didn't have the back of his head bashed against the concrete.)

Did anyone else notice how the prosecution kept showing pictures of younger and smaller Travon Martin? They didn't show current pictures of him!
I heard that he was actually 6'1". He was a big man, not a little teenager as he was being portrayed. He was much bigger than Zimmerman
So why on earth was the prosecution not showing more current pictures of Martin?

Quote: Keyser

So why on earth was the prosecution not showing more current pictures of Martin?

Because it wouldn't have helped their case.

It just find it to be so incredibly underhanded. Zimmerman could have ended up in jail for 30 years.

Quote: thecesspit

Don't start following people just because they are wearing a hoody with the hood up. Funny though, I wear hoody's all the time, and no-one ever follows me around.

(I guess I just don't look like trouble.)

Oh so many lessons to be learned from this.

So true. Unless someone is breaking a law clearly, leave them alone.

Quote: AZDuffman

Don't attack people on the street just because you don't like the neighborhood watch watching the neighborhood.

Obama is going to use this case to show that people approve of being watched for practically no reason at all. And if they fight back, you can use force against them.

So, it was a win win either way.

Quote: Keyser

It just find it to be so incredibly underhanded. Zimmerman could have ended up in jail for 30 years.

I agree, but then again, they're trying to get a conviction. Also, if they cared at all about Zimmerman, they would have never brought charges against him in the first place with such a weak case.

Same old story. If being raped, don't fight, you'll only be hurt worse. The state will deal with the bad guy later. If hijacked, obey the bad guy, the state will find the criminals and bring them to justice. If attacked with fists, you may only respond with fists, otherwise, you're violating the civil rights of the attacker.

Quote: Keyser

Did anyone else notice how the prosecution kept showing pictures of younger and smaller Travon Martin? They didn't show current pictures of him!

People in EU think he's a 5th grader, thats all
they showed in a lot of places. He was huge
compared to Zimmerman, who was skinny at
the time.

AZDuffman - where is the evidence for any of your empty assertions? "Lay on the ground ......" "punch you in the face time after time .. There is no evidence for any of this. The rest of your remarks are just emotional arm-waving arguing from Zimmerman's story.

I guess it's like religion, and dice setting: a matter of "faith."

Ridiculous.

Quote: riverbed

AZDuffman - where is the evidence for any of your empty assertions? "Lay on the ground ......" "punch you in the face time after time .. There is no evidence for any of this. The rest of your remarks are just emotional arm-waving arguing from Zimmerman's story.

The evidence has shown that Martin attacked Zimmerman (in a possible hate crime!) and was punching him in the face while he had him pinned on the ground.

So I am just asking those who are defending Martin's actions if they would like to lay on the ground while being punched in the face for several minutes until the cops arrived.

My guess is they would not. My further guess is most of them live in very safe areas and do not understand living in a neighborhood with break-ins.

FWIW Zimmerman's story makes far more sense. Zimmerman does not seem a type to just attack or shoot someone for no reason. His mentoring of black children shows him not to be a racist. Martin had a history of behavior problems and his phone conversation suggests he was ready to go on the attack.

I will take Zimmerman's story as it seems true, just as the cops that night and the DA believed before outside pressure came to bear.

You know, if I had a son, he would look like Zimmerman.

Quote: AZDuffman

You know, if I had a son, he would look like Zimmerman.

Really?!

AZDuffman - there is no such evidence as you claim. You are simply speculating from your own agenda. We know nothing about the initial confrontation and very little about the fight that ensued. One single witness said he thought Travon was on top, and he wasn't adamant about that.

Quote: riverbed

AZDuffman - there is no such evidence as you claim. You are simply speculating from your own agenda. We know nothing about the initial confrontation and very little about the fight that ensued. One single witness said he thought Travon was on top, and he wasn't adamant about that.

No, I am going from both testimony and the police report. And adding in quite a bit of common sense to fill out the story.

For example, we know Martin said Zimmerman was a "creepy ass cracker" with a history of discipline problems.

Quote: AZDuffman

. My further guess is most of them live in very safe areas and do not understand living in a neighborhood with break-ins.
.

The police reports had more non-black descriptions for break-ins than black. It doesn't sound like he was even profiling correctly.

So, while he was following Martin, there was probably some nice looking white punk tiptoeing by him with someone's TV.

Quote: rxwine

The police reports had more non-black descriptions for break-ins than black. It doesn't sound like he was even profiling correctly.

Any youth walking close to houses would deserve investigation in that case. I still fail to see the problem with watching the neighborhood. I would be happy to have Zimmerman as a neighbor.

Quote: riverbed

AZDuffman - there is no such evidence as you claim. You are simply speculating from your own agenda. We know nothing about the initial confrontation and very little about the fight that ensued. One single witness said he thought Travon was on top, and he wasn't adamant about that.

At the risk of jumping into an argument in which I have no desire to participate, the forensic expert testified that

Quote: Fox News article

a forensic expert testified Tuesday that Martin's gunshot wound indicated that he was likely on top of Zimmerman when the neighborhood watch volunteer shot him. Forensic pathologist Dr. Vincent DiMaio, an expert on gunshot wounds who has written and co-authored several articles and a book on the subject, said the single shot that killed the Florida teen passed through Martin's clothing as it hung 2-4 inches from his skin, indicating that Martin was over Zimmerman and leaning forward.
"If you’re lying on your back, the clothing is going to be against your chest," DiMaio testified. "So the fact that we know the clothing was 2 to 4 inches away is consistent with someone leaning over the person doing the shooting."
...
"The wound itself, by the gap and the powder tattooing, in the face of contact with the clothing indicates that this is consistent with Mr. Zimmerman's account that Mr. Martin was over him, leaning forward at the time he was shot," DiMaio said.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/09/11-calls-becoming-heart-zimmerman-trial/?intcmp=trending#ixzz2YZd2T41T

The burden of proof was on the prosecution and they didn't meet it. It's not a question of agenda, it's a question of the basic tenets of litigation in this country: the moving party must make its case. In the eyes of the six jurors, that didn't happen.

Quote: AZDuffman

No, I am going from both testimony and the police report. And adding in quite a bit of common sense to fill out the story.

And as backed up by the deputy prosecutor who used the cutout to demonstrate how he said Martin straddled Zimmerman.

Facts: George Zimmerman was measured/weighed the night of the confrontation. 5'7.5", 204 lbs. (Police report.)
When he was arrested 44 days later, he weighed 185 lbs. (Police report.)
Trayvon Martin was measured/weighed at his autopsy. 5'11", 158 lbs. (Autopsy report.)

Facts: No one except George Zimmerman saw/testified that Trayvon Martin threw the first punch. No one else saw it; Rachel Jeantel (on the phone with him at the time) did not hear it that way. She did hear them struggling together (his earbuds fell off while this was going on and she heard it from the mike on the ground for a few moments before the call cut off; she heard them in the grass, not on concrete). This can't be considered a fact in evidence because there is no independent verification, and other evidence (no bruises, 1 small cut 1/4" by 1/8" on his 4th finger. (GZ deposition, RJ deposition/testimony, autopsy).

Facts: No one except George Zimmerman saw/testified that Trayvon Martin was banging his head on the concrete. The only eyewitness to part of the fight that said anything about that was Dave Good, and he saw them fighting in the grass, not on the concrete, with TM on top. Another eyewitness thought she saw GZ on top, again in the grass. Nobody else saw anything until after the shot. (GZ deposition, DG deposition/testimony, neighbor deposition/testimony - can't think of her name).

Don't mind you arguing the facts, but what GZ says happened isn't credible on its own, because he had a strong motive to tell the details in his own favor, and was often caught in inconsistencies between the two taped statements, his written deposition, and the video re-enactment. The only other person who could verify those things is dead. I think you will see much of this come out in the civil trial, along with several other things the prosecutors did not pursue.

Quote: AZDuffman

I would be happy to have Zimmerman as a neighbor.

I'll try to get the message to him. : )

Quote: Beethoven9th

So I suppose that if someone were on top of you "MMA style" and pounding your head, you would lay on your back and take it?????

If so, then you have lived a very unbelievable life.

(BTW, did you even bother to read the post I was replying to? My guess is that you didn't because the person had implied that Zimmerman didn't have the back of his head bashed against the concrete.)

Where did I say I would take a beating? I just find it unbelievable that a 28 year old man at 5' 7" 185 pounds (as listed on his April 2012 arrest report), could not fend off a 5' 11" 158 pound (autopsy report) 17 year old, without shooting him. If George was really that unable to fend for himself he should have stayed in his car. As to what really happened that night we will never know, because we only have George's version of events. The only thing we do know for sure is that if George had stayed in his car we would have never have heard of either of them.

Quote: CS94

The only thing we do know for sure is that if George had stayed in his car we would have never have heard of either of them.

You sound like a defense attorney, blaming the rape victim.

No, we also know that if Martin had not attacked the "creepy ass cracker" we would likewise never have heard of either of them.

Getting out of your car to investigate a possible crime in progress is not a crime; attacking someone is.

I wondered if the defense ever had Zimmerman try to reproduce "his" scream in private. If they did, it must have not been suitable. You would have to simulate the same distance and cell phone recording, but not impossible to at least give it a shot.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Don't mind you arguing the facts, but what GZ says happened isn't credible on its own, because he had a strong motive to tell the details in his own favor, and was often caught in inconsistencies between the two taped statements, his written deposition, and the video re-enactment.

Yeah but it is frankly very difficult to remember all the details of our lives and retell them 100% accurately. We tend to think of our brains as being like digital recorders but they are far from it. Our memories and the stories we tell ourselves about past events evolve over time. All this to say that inconsistencies are certainly a problem but also that they are not at all unusual even when someone is trying to tell the truth. Haven't you ever witnessed the same event with a group of friends and then heard that other person tell the story and you remember it differently?

Quote: CS94

I just find it unbelievable that a 28 year old man at 5' 7" 185 pounds (as listed on his April 2012 arrest report), could not fend off a 5' 11" 158 pound (autopsy report) 17 year old, without shooting him.

I don't know what your height/weight is, but I'm sure I can find someone approximately your size who knows how to fight and who can take you down & subdue you in an instant.

For that matter, I don't know what high school you went to, but I witnessed many high school fights between two guys (who were about the same size) where one ended up getting pummeled by the other. Hell, even Manny Pacquiao got knocked out by a guy who was approximately his size.

Quote: CS94

As to what really happened that night we will never know...

That's why the verdict was correct. If you don't know what happened, then you don't have nearly enough information that goes 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Quote: CS94

The only thing we do know for sure is that if George had stayed in his car we would have never have heard of either of them.

That's just as ignorant as saying that if Trayvon Martin had not been out that night we would have never heard of either of them.

There's a documentary on this written by Tom Wolfe.

Quote: bigfoot66

Yeah but it is frankly very difficult to remember all the details of our lives and retell them 100% accurately. We tend to think of our brains as being like digital recorders but they are far from it. Our memories and the stories we tell ourselves about past events evolve over time. All this to say that inconsistencies are certainly a problem but also that they are not at all unusual even when someone is trying to tell the truth. Haven't you ever witnessed the same event with a group of friends and then heard that other person tell the story and you remember it differently?

bigfoot; couldn't agree more. I've read, too, that a person with small inconsistencies in their story is less likely to be lying than one who tells it exactly the same way. But some of the inconsistencies included things that couldn't possibly have happened the way he said, not just unconfirmed but possible actions. And when you add that to his knowing the framework for determining self-defense and his motive in protecting himself and justifying his actions under questioning, he is not credible without independent verification.

There's another fun case coming up in Florida: probably won't go as well for the shooter. Loud music, walking? Pretty much got an excuse to kill everyone.
Granted, there's no real way to kill people playing loud music and get away with it, that I know of. Defending your ears?

Quote:

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."

After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun, Schoonover said.

"Nobody else in that vehicle was struck; it was just our victim [Davis], which was lucky because the vehicle was shot eight or nine times," Schoonover said.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

Mr. Tangent strikes again.

Quote: Beethoven9th

That's why the verdict was correct. If you don't know what happened, then you don't have nearly enough information that goes 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Boom, and justice was hence served. Zimmerman may indeed by a murderer, or may indeed be innocent. The law quite clearly has stated he is innocent of criminal charges.

Quote:

That's just as ignorant as saying that if Trayvon Martin had not been out that night we would have never heard of either of them.

Or if Zimmerman hadn't approached him, or Trayvon hadn't reacted to the approach, or Martin hadn't reacted to the reaction, and so on and so forth.

Things escalate. It got out of control. Someone died. That is a tragedy. No-one deserved to die.

You know where the block button is.

Quote: thecesspit

Or if Zimmerman hadn't approached him, or Trayvon hadn't reacted to the approach, or Martin hadn't reacted to the reaction, and so on and so forth.

Things escalate. It got out of control. Someone died. That is a tragedy. No-one deserved to die.

Agreed.

Quote: rxwine

There's another fun case coming up in Florida: probably won't go as well for the shooter. Loud music, walking? Pretty much got an excuse to kill everyone.
Granted, there's no real way to kill people playing loud music and get away with it, that I know of. Defending your ears?

Quote:

A Florida gun collector has pleaded not guilty to a murder charge alleging that he opened fire on a car full of unarmed teenagers, killing one, in an altercation that police say stemmed from loud music.

Michael David Dunn, 45, acted "as any responsible firearms owner would have," his lawyer said of the Friday evening incident at a gas station outside a convenience store in Jacksonville, Fla.

Dunn and his girlfriend were in Jacksonville for his son's wedding when they pulled up in their car next to the teens. Police allege that while the girlfriend was in the store, Dunn told Jordan Russell Davis, 17, and his three friends to turn down their music.

"It was loud," Jacksonville homicide Lt. Rob Schoonover said of the teens' music. "They admitted that. That's not a reason for someone to open fire."

After an exchange of words, Dunn began shooting with a handgun, Schoonover said.

"Nobody else in that vehicle was struck; it was just our victim [Davis], which was lucky because the vehicle was shot eight or nine times," Schoonover said.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/28/15513847-florida-man-pleads-not-guilty-to-shooting-teen-to-death-over-loud-music?lite

One man fires into a car full of kids 9 times and flees the scene... One neighborhood watch guard is attacked and fires one shot into his attackers chest...

Where are the similarities?

Quote: Beardgoat

One man fires into a car full of kids 9 times and flees the scene... One neighborhood watch guard is attacked and fires one shot into his attackers chest...

Where are the similarities?

LOL

You should see his other posts. One time I was talking about political pollsters, and then out of nowhere he starts going on & on about casinos and the Wizard!

I hope some people come to realize that if you dress like you're "gangsta" and act like you're "gangsta" then people will keep a watchful eye on you.

But then again, isn't that why they dress like that in the first place, so they can get the attention that they crave?

They purposefully try to walk and dress like they're thugs and hold their hands in their pants to pretend that they have a gun. Of course, it's also to keep their pants from falling the rest of the way down.

Quote: Keyser

But then again, isn't that why they dress like that in the first place, so they can get the attention that they crave?

Good point! They seek attention, and then they complain when they attract attention.

Hmm, can't wear a hoodie? Okay thanks. I'll pass on the saggy pants though.

Quote: Beethoven9th

LOL

You should see his other posts. One time I was talking about political pollsters, and then out of nowhere he starts going on & on about casinos and the Wizard!

Tangent.

Look, if you're going to wear a hoodie, and walk around pretending to have a gun in your pants, then people are going to take notice and assume that you're a thug.

That's why they dress like that. They want to look "gangsta".

I agree with Alan Dershowitz. I believe that Zimmerman Special Prosecutor Angela Corey Should Be Disbarred. She withheld evidence, and mislead judges and the grand jury. I believe Zimmerman should have never been charged. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/14/alan_dershowitz_zimmerman_special_prosecutor_angela_corey_should_be_disbarred.html

And now Obama and his minions are trying to go after him on federal charges.

By the way, try going into your local bank wearing your hoodie up, pants sagging, while pretending to hold a gun. LOL :).

Quote: Keyser

And now Obama and his minions are trying to go after him on federal charges.LOL :).

So saggy ass Harry can make a case he was guilty.
Harry can't find the bathroom in time some days,
good luck with that, Harry. He's going to have trouble
with bringing a race case if the guy isn't even guilty
of murder. Its so racist on the Obama administrations
part. Of course Barry said if he had a son, he'd want
him to look just Treyvon. So there is that..

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/07/14/Reid-Zimmerman-not-over

Wow, the corruption on the left is sickening!

Having almost no media contact whatsoever, I’ve not commented out of supreme ignorance of the details. But after reading some of the stuff posted here, I’ve been driven to submit my few pence.

Quite simply, Zimmerman was an idiot for causing the confrontation to begin with. I personally have called in a few things here and there, whether it was erratic drivers or creepers hanging around where they shouldn’t be. Every one of the incidents were handled effectively from my position in my driver’s seat. Unless someone’s health and safety were in danger, which wasn’t the case with me and wasn’t the case with GZ, stay your ass in the car.

That there was GZ’s mistake. But despite it, everything else is on TM’s shoulders. Look, I don’t give a shit what anyone says or does to you; unless you are in imminent danger of physical harm, you leave your hands off others. GZ could’ve tailed this boy round and round, taunting him and calling him a nigger 50 times over, it doesn’t matter. Unless GZ threatened TM’s health or safety, TM has no right to throw hands. If, and I say “if” because I’m that ignorant of the details, but if TM began the physical part of the confrontation, then his death is his own fault. About the only way I could convict GZ is if he got physical first, like, I dunno, if he tried to take TM into custody or approached him with gun already drawn and TM covered.

You guys that are commenting on the fight details have either never been in a fight, or it has been tens of summers since your last. I’ve both destroyed people and been destroyed by people and have looked far better than GZ’s pic, and I and my opponents have come away looking much worse, although all wounds were superficial. You just don’t know with fights. And gone are the days of the “gentleman’s agreement” a la Fight Club. You can’t in this day and age expect a man to stop when one goes limp or otherwise cries off. I’ve seen all too many fights, both on the intertron and with my living eyes, where a limp body gets mercilessly pummeled once on the ground and even once unconscious. I’ve been that target. Punches, kicks, knees, you just never know.

Ain’t a guy on this board who I couldn’t whoop. Whether it’s Wiz’s slender, timid self or rdw’s towering person, you’d have your hands full if you got me riled. On the flip side, every single person here could give me a thrashing just as easily. I’ve been there, unfortunately. I’ve pounded guys that left the crowd’s mouth agape wondering how I pulled it off, and I’ve gotten my ass kicked by a 140lb bean pole, all in the same year. You just don’t know.

And fights are terrifying. Even on the ice where there is code and backup, it’s bleeding scary. Out on the streets? Hell with that. Granted, I avoid confrontation like the plague, but if I was in GZ’s position of being outmanned, outgunned, and had no indication of the thrashing stopping RIGHT NOW, the only thing I’d have done differently is shot TM more than once. There is no shortage of people who took “just one punch” and are no longer here to tell the tale, or who are severely impaired as a result of neurological damage. To hell with that. If you want to fight, look for someone else. If you force a fight, pray I’m not carrying because I’ll empty it in your chest.

Tl;dr – They’re both idiots who paid with their lives. One literally, the other in all the ways that matter. Don’t start no shit, won’t be no shit. They both had phones – use them. Why is this news?

" Ain’t a guy on this board who I couldn’t whoop. "

I used to be that stupid too, many years ago. LOL

The kid was only 17 ! And of course had Zimmerman not been carrying, his skinny ass would have stayed inside the car.

Quote: Buzzard

" Ain’t a guy on this board who I couldn’t whoop. "

I used to be that stupid too, many years ago. LOL

You quoted what shows my age. You missed the next which shows my wisdom =)

Quote: Face

On the flip side, everyone here could give me a thrashing just as easily

Quote: Buzzard

The kid was only 17 ! And of course had Zimmerman not been carrying, his skinny ass would have stayed inside the car.

And you're 70! Just a broken, withered old man, right? I mean, a spry young buck such as myself wouldn't have a problem in hand to hand combat against the likes of you...right? ;)

Age, size, MMA phantasy camp,... All that goes out the window when knuckles meet noggin. C'mon Buzz, you of all people should get what I'm getting at. The tale of the tape rarely tells the full story. I wouldn't consider TM "a little kid" no more than I'd mistake you for a withered old man. Assumptions like that get you an ass whoopin', might even get you killed.

Quote: Face

I wouldn't consider TM "a little kid" no more than I'd mistake you for a withered old man. Assumptions like that get you an ass whoppin'...

Reminds me of that 67-year-old Vietnam vet who beat down a younger guy on the bus. (Go to 1:37 for the action)