Zimmerman Trial

I am not going to get into the politics of gun control or the stand your ground law, but am going to limit my thoughts to the oddities of the trial so far, which it seems to just be filled with.

1.) All female jury. Does this seem acceptable to anyone? Is this reflective of that community? I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, but I would think this could be grounds for an appeal for either losing side.

2.) In the murder trial of a Juvenile 17 year old, an opening statement, beginning with a knock knock joke. Really??? :( Very disturbing. Again, no legal training and no Holiday Inn Express, but.....grounds for appeal ?

3.) A key witness for the prosecution, who no matter which side you are pulling for or whether you believe her testimony or not, she was just horrible. Extremely hostile and unlikable. I don't spend much (any) time in courtrooms, but have never seen anything like that.

4.) A defendant that has gained 120 pound in 16 months. This is just sad, but adds to the bizzarity ( <- this might a word of my own making...lol) of this saga.

Quote: kewlj

1.) All female jury. Does this seem acceptable to anyone? Is this reflective of that community? I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, but I would think this could be grounds for an appeal for either losing side.

Were the number of males in the jury pool such that either side excluding as many females as they possibly could have would have necessarily resulted in at least one male being on the jury?

That's definitely an oddity, though, I imagine the defense would potentially have grounds to appeal, but they'd have had to preserve it as an appealable issue at the appropriate time by objecting to it. Essentially, you can't appeal something that you didn't argue in the course of the proceedings.

Quote:

2.) In the murder trial of a Juvenile 17 year old, an opening statement, beginning with a knock knock joke. Really??? :( Very disturbing. Again, no legal training and no Holiday Inn Express, but.....grounds for appeal ?

Was there an objection? Who made the joke? I'd be really surprised if that could ever result in a successful appeal, you would have to be able to convince the appropriate Appellate court that said joke has a substantive and prejudicial effect in the jury's determination of guilt or innocence. Occasionally, one side or the other will say something in the course of proceedings that is legally inappropriate, but appeals often fail because the inappropriate thing said is not adjudicated to have been enough to unfairly sway the jury.

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3.) A key witness for the prosecution, who no matter which side you are pulling for or whether you believe her testimony or not, she was just horrible. Extremely hostile and unlikable. I don't spend much (any) time in courtrooms, but have never seen anything like that.

I haven't been following this thing specifically, so I have no idea who you mean or why they were hostile and unlikable.

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4.) A defendant that has gained 120 pound in 16 months. This is just sad, but adds to the bizzarity ( <- this might a word of my own making...lol) of this saga.

Stress eater?

My thoughts about the knock knock joke being grounds for appeal are based on the fact that here in Nevada, OJ Simpson was recently granted a hearing to determine if he should get a new trial based on the grounds that his lawyer mishandled his case. I was thinking Mr Zimmerman could make a similar claim. But again, just thinking out loud.

The makeup of the jury is not grounds for appeal, although I'd agree that this particular jury is peculiar. As for Zimmerman's appearance, I think it actually helps him out in a weird way. People probably view a pudgy guy as less likely to be a killer.

3.) A key witness for the prosecution, who no matter which side you are pulling for or whether you believe her testimony or not, she was just horrible. Extremely hostile and unlikable. I don't spend much (any) time in courtrooms, but have never seen anything like that.


Jury supposed to be looking for the truth and not a pleasing personality.

Quote: Buzzard

Jury supposed to be looking for the truth and not a pleasing personality.

That's the key word.

For me a big part of the truth is George Zimmerman was told to stay in his car. I am sure was he not armed, that's what he would have done !


Were I his lawyer, I would have pleaded not guilty for medical reasons. He obviously was suffering from " Barney Fife" syndrome.

Kewlj;

I have been watching this closely with a local channel covering from the first day of jury selection (which is why I've been on this board as much as I have, in front of the tv [eek!] several hours a day, helping moderate a chat board for that station). So, a little information...

1. Jury pool was initially 500. All were given written questionaires (not released: voir dire round 1) asking basic questions about their backgrounds, biases, and media exposure to the case. 70 were dismissed for cause (not known what; could have been hardship, bias, whatever). First 100 of those who were left (determined by lottery) stood by and were called in 1 by 1 for individual questioning (voir dire round 2) by both lawyers in front of the court. Specific interview topic was knowledge of the case, viewing/reading habits, use of social media, bias towards one side or the other, and hardship but questioning led into religion, fear of riots and for personal safety, lots of other topics brought out thru questioning. Was a special round so as not to taint other jurors with media knowledge. Became apparent that the less a person knew about the case, the more they said they could keep an open mind, and the more desirable they were to the lawyers. Midway through this process, the judge decided to sequester the jury due to the fear the jurors were feeling, which changed hardship burden. They went through approx. 62 jurors to get 40 before they went further; lost many men here for bias or hardship. They then empaneled the group for more traditional voir dire (round 3), and with 10 peremptory challenges per side (each actually used 6), got 6 women plus 4 alternates (2 women, 2 men). The jurors were offered in the order they had survived rounds 1 and 2. Into round 2, there were slighly more women than men, but for various reasons most of the first few men were struck for cause; by round 3, there were 24 women and 16 men, heavily weighted in order for women. (8 of the first 12). The state attempted to strike 4 of those 8 in a row, the defense challenged for gender bias, and the judge (female) allowed 2 to be struck, forced the state to accept the other 2. Had they been successful, the next 2 in order would have been men, those now alternates. The lone black male potential was struck by the defense. The lone black woman was struck by the prosecution.

2. Full knock knock joke was based on results of above (which is why I was detailed). "Knock knock" "Who's there?" "George Zimmerman" "George Zimmerman who?" "Alright, good, you're on the jury." I found it incredibly insulting to the jury, calling them ignorant, and he told it to THEM! Very disturbing all around, and he tried to apologize after lunch for it, but just dug the hole deeper.

3. I wrote about this in another thread here, so will just say: she was forced to be there, she had an antagonistic history with Don West, and he was being paid a lot to make her look bad. He succeeded. All theater.

4. The defendant is 5'7.5". He weighed 204 when he killed the kid, 185 when he was arrested 44 days later, and now is well over 300. The defense lawyer (not the knock/knocker, the lead attorney) is unhappy about that because they're making a big deal about the relative sizes of both parties, and the jury's looking at a huge man who shot and killed an unarmed kid, and his defense is that he was in fear for his life while fighting him (kid was 5'11" and weighed 158). No gag order on anybody, so the lawyer is discussing things like this in press conferences.

The white gunowner contingent is expecting race riots if he's found not guilty on the order of Rodney King. Everybody's on edge.

BTW, as far as I know the prosecution cannot appeal a verdict.

Quote: kewlj

I am not going to get into the politics of gun control or the stand your ground law, but am going to limit my thoughts to the oddities of the trial so far, which it seems to just be filled with.

1.) All female jury. Does this seem acceptable to anyone? Is this reflective of that community? I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, but I would think this could be grounds for an appeal for either losing side.

2.) In the murder trial of a Juvenile 17 year old, an opening statement, beginning with a knock knock joke. Really??? :( Very disturbing. Again, no legal training and no Holiday Inn Express, but.....grounds for appeal ?

3.) A key witness for the prosecution, who no matter which side you are pulling for or whether you believe her testimony or not, she was just horrible. Extremely hostile and unlikable. I don't spend much (any) time in courtrooms, but have never seen anything like that.

4.) A defendant that has gained 120 pound in 16 months. This is just sad, but adds to the bizzarity ( <- this might a word of my own making...lol) of this saga.

1. Both sides agreed to this jury so it is what it is.
2. Pretty sad. This is a serious matter. Horrible decision to start off with a joke but a small mistake hopefully. The last thing a lawyer wants to do is get off on the wrong foot with the jury.
3. She doesn't want to be there and her testimony reflects that. Its that simple.
4. Oh well, he brought it on himself. I love walking, great exercise. In fact many businesses such as restaurants and convenience stores are all in my walking distance.

Before and after pics of Zimmerman. Whats he been doing,
powering down Taco Bell for 18 months?

Quote: Beethoven9th

As for Zimmerman's appearance, I think it actually helps him out in a weird way. People probably view a pudgy guy as less likely to be a killer.

Not to mention that he has been for all intents and purposes confined to his residence, thanks to the media saturation and the onslaught of past and potential threats to his body and safety. Maybe even including a touch of Kevlar here and there.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Not to mention that he has been for all intents and purposes confined to his residence, thanks to the media saturation and the onslaught of past and potential threats to his body and safety. Maybe even including a touch of Kevlar here and there.

It's likely, if he gets off, he'll be even more hidden than Casey Anthony post-trail. The guy probably won't be able to ever go out in public with any regularity. Some friends think the weight gain makes him look "More Hispanic" but I don't know if I see it.

Here in the Central FLA area, it's wall-to-wall coverage on all the channels just like Casey Anthony was.

Quote: kewlj

1.) All female jury. Does this seem acceptable to anyone? Is this reflective of that community? I am not a lawyer, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn express last night, but I would think this could be grounds for an appeal for either losing side.

If I were Zimmerman I would have wanted several males on the jury but I did read in regards to this that there is no right to a "jury of your peers." I sat on a jury last year (see my blog at DT) and it was a guy who hung it.

Quote:

3.) A key witness for the prosecution, who no matter which side you are pulling for or whether you believe her testimony or not, she was just horrible. Extremely hostile and unlikable. I don't spend much (any) time in courtrooms, but have never seen anything like that.

Only saw part of it but the prosecution probably does not have much to work with. Charges were only brought after political pressure was applied. Consider the DA may be taking a dive?

Quote:

4.) A defendant that has gained 120 pound in 16 months. This is just sad, but adds to the bizzarity ( <- this might a word of my own making...lol) of this saga.

This could go either way. The possibility of going to jail for life for defending yourself would stress anyone to the point of huge weight gain or loss. The Mendez Brothers hung their first jury in part because some female jurors found them "cute" and felt sorry for them. Appearance may count. I will say at my trial the appearance of the Defendant looked such that I could believe some of the behaviors around the house that the victim claimed.

One thing that really irritates me about this case is that they keep showing pictures of Trayvon Martin when he was like 12 years old. I mean, c'mon...

Let me go on record by predicting this will go down like the OJ case -- not guilty in the criminal case and guilty in the subsequent civil wrongful death case. In other words, the juries will perceive a probability of guilty greater than 50% but less than whatever percentage constitutes "reasonable doubt."

Quote: Beethoven9th

One thing that really irritates me about this case is that they keep showing pictures of Trayvon Martin when he was like 12 years old. I mean, c'mon...

This is another big distinction between the national and the local news down here. They have been showing Trayvon looking older since the start. Local news reporters that care more about breaking stories than setting a narrative usually paint a more accurate picture.

Quote: cclub79

This is another big distinction between the national and the local news down here. They have been showing Trayvon looking older since the start. Local news reporters that care more about breaking stories than setting a narrative usually paint a more accurate picture.

Yeah, locally they have been quite careful to show pictures of Trayvon as recent as possible. But they tend to be neutral pictures, not with a flock of birds in flight.

Hispanic looking, with a German sounding name?
Baby dead?

Guilty!

the "knock knock" joke wasn't even original. I remember hearing it during the OJ Simpson Trial:

"knock knock"
"who's there"
"OJ"
'OJ who"
"OK, you're on the jury"

But of course, OJ's lawyers had the good sense not to tell it to the jury.

And I think it will be extremely unlikely that the defense could use this as grounds for appeal. A lawyer's performance has to be ineffective (i.e. incompetent) to reverse a conviction. Telling a dumb joke doesn't rise to that level. Plus, Zimmerman's other lawyers could have immediately moved for a mistrial if they felt it was that damaging.

OJ Simpson getting a hearing to ask for a new trial was a brilliant move by his lawyers by claiming OJ's lawyer (Galanter) told him it was OK to get his stuff back by force (I don't believe for a minute Galanter really told him this). Then, Galanter supposedly had a conflict of interest in having OJ not testify. The court felt compelled to look into this further, but I don't think he will succeed.

I can't wait for the acquittal so that I can counter-protest the race riots.

Semi-joking, as much as I legitimately would want to it wouldn't be worth my life.

Quote: Beethoven9th

One thing that really irritates me about this case is that they keep showing pictures of Trayvon Martin when he was like 12 years old. I mean, c'mon...

You realize that is an innacurate picture right http://www.pbs.org/pov/blog/docsoup/2012/03/on-pinterest-and-in-documentaries-dont-judge-a-killer-by-an-image/#.UdCKVWIWKss . That picture shows a completely unrelated Trayvon Martin.

Quote: ahiromu

I can't wait for the acquittal so that I can counter-protest the race riots.

The race riots will be interesting not for the riots themselves, which will be a repeat of 1992 and the 1960s, but the fissures after. In all previous race riots "the man" was white, this time it will be a hispanic that he anger will be directed towards. "Whitey" is just on the sidelines here.

For years it has been questioned what happens when blacks are no longer the majority-minority. This hasn't quite happened yet, even if the numbers are there the perception is not quite sunk in. But this case could be a marker that this time is here. On the streets there is already tension between the two groups.

Jackson, Sharpton, and the usual band of race-baiters will simply shift and add Hispanics to the enemies list. Obama already came out for Martin and not Zimmerman. How will the average Hispanic take this?

Quote: Twirdman

You realize that is an innacurate picture right http://www.pbs.org/pov/blog/docsoup/2012/03/on-pinterest-and-in-documentaries-dont-judge-a-killer-by-an-image/#.UdCKVWIWKss . That picture shows a completely unrelated Trayvon Martin.

You do realize that my entire point revolved around the 2 sentences preceding the photo, right?

Quote: P90

ANFO PRISM Boston Freedom Stormfront Resist Obama

...what.

Quote: 24Bingo

Quote: P90

ANFO PRISM Boston Freedom Stormfront Resist Obama

...what.

It's a bunch of words used to crap up keyword filters used for blanket internet surveillance.

I don't really believe their algorithms lack so much in sophistication as to fail to reject signatures, but it's the thought that makes a statement. Largely the juxtaposition of Freedom between Boston and Stormfront.

There won't be much in the way of riots, all the usual suspects will do all the obligatory fomenting, but will gain little traction. After seeing the prosecution case, no wonder it took political pressure to get a prosecutor to move. The POTUS (not to mention the race baiting members of congress) actually injected himself into this case, pathetic.

Quote: Sabretom2

There won't be much in the way of riots, all the usual suspects will do all the obligatory fomenting, but will gain little traction. After seeing the prosecution case, no wonder it took political pressure to get a prosecutor to move. The POTUS (not to mention the race baiting members of congress) actually injected himself into this case, pathetic.

To steal form "The West Wing" they have the political equivalent of Tourette's Syndrome. They (including our POTUS) cannot help themselves. Pathetic, I agree.

Quote: P90

It's a bunch of words used to crap up keyword filters used for blanket internet surveillance.
.

Just sleep with one eye open.

Am I the only one that found that knock-knock joke at least slightly amusing?

I understand the seriousness of the whole thing, but the joke isn't going to make Trayvon Martin any more or less dead, just sayin'.

Must be a slow news day over at CNN. They think it's breaking news that the defense is saying that Zimmerman is not guilty:

What a bold gambit, to declare that your client is not guilty!

Quote: Mission146

What a bold gambit, to declare that your client is not guilty!

It would have beenbolder had they argued the opposite.

I am remided of the argument once made by attorney Texas "Racehorse" Haynes, who was defending a brazen killer; there was overwhelming evidence of the murder.

Haynes introduced an defense / argument which I believe to be unique to Texas: he argued only that "that son of a bitch needed killing."

Not because of self defense, either: only that the victim was such a cad that he "needed killing."

"Not guilty," agreed the Texas jury.

_______________

*found on the 'net, at an unmoderated gambling board*

"SANFORD, FL—Claiming that his second-degree murder trial has “dragged on for way too long,” sources confirmed Thursday that former neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman offered to just plead guilty and pay the fine or whatever. “Look, I’m sick of having to deal with this, so just let me pay the 100 bucks or whatever it is and I’ll be on my way,” said Zimmerman, noting that he has already wasted three weeks in court fighting his murder charge in the February 2012 shooting death of unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. “At this point, I don’t even care anymore. I’ll take the slap on the wrist if it means I can get back to my life. And if I have to do community service or something then, fine, I’ll do that too.” Zimmerman added that he really needed to wrap things up by tomorrow at the latest, since he has “already missed way too many days of work for this stupid thing."

He shot that little boy and everybody knows it. That little boy was freaked out by a guy stalking him.
Stop wasting my federal tax dollars that shouldn't be spent on this trial in the first place.

KB1

Quote: KB1

He shot that little boy and everybody knows it. That little boy was freaked out by a guy stalking him.
Stop wasting my federal tax dollars that shouldn't be spent on this trial in the first place.

KB1

It's a state case, and he's admitted to shooting the 17 year old "little boy." The case hinges on whether or not the killing was justified as an act of self-defense.

Quote: rdw4potus

It's a state case, and he's admitted to shooting the 17 year old "little boy." The case hinges on whether or not the killing was justified as an act of self-defense.

From what I've read and seen, the prosecution hasn't been able to prove squat beyond a reasonable doubt.

Zimmerman comes across as an overzealous, stupid amateur. But he souldn't be convicted on the evidence thus far presented.

Quote: KB1

He shot that little boy and everybody knows it. That little boy was freaked out by a guy stalking him.
Stop wasting my federal tax dollars that shouldn't be spent on this trial in the first place.

KB1

The "little boy" attacked him. And it is a state trial, not federal. I guess according to you there should be no trial for anyone we think is guilty?

RD- nice mo cl quote and I heard yesterday that federal tax dollars were being used in this thing. I thought it was all state money being used until I heard that on the local news channel.

KB1

The media obviously want riots so they have something
to cover in the non news summer months. Nothing like
some good ol race riots to sell some soap and get your
ratings up. And don't think there aren't certain elements
in the larger cities that will use any excuse to cart off a
50" TV from BestBuy or a new air conditioner from ABC
Warehouse.

Tupp? Where are you Tupp?

Quote: EvenBob

And don't think there aren't certain elements
in the larger cities that will use any excuse to cart off a
50" TV from BestBuy or a new air conditioner from ABC
Warehouse.

Those damn hipsters.

Hide the PBR, boys!

Now that this trial is complete as far as the evidence, I'll share more thoughts. I want Mr Zimmerman to be held accountable for the death of Travon Martin. I really feel like he is a whimp. Big man with a gun. He would have NEVER gotten out of his vehicle if he wasn't carrying. BUT the state didn,t PROVE that he did anything wrong according to the existing laws. I guess my big problem is with the law as it exists. The stand your ground law says you can kill someone as long as you feel you are in danger. So basically, you can walk into a bar, walk up to the biggest dude there and slug him. Then 2 minutes later when you are getting your ass kicked and fear for your life, you can pull out your gun and shot him. And that is crazy.

Quote: kewlj

The stand your ground law says you can kill someone as long as you feel you are in danger.

Stand your ground laws were not a factor in the defense. And I don't think your intepretation of them is right.

As to the rest, the Martin family is sure to file a wrongful death lawsuit. Zimmerman probably can't pay much, but if so then it only means he'll go broke fighting it.

If its anything less than murder, like manslaugther, there
will be riots. Just because its July. If it was Dec nobody
would care.

yup, I've got the popcorn ready

Quote: Nareed

The Martin family is sure to file a wrongful death lawsuit. Zimmerman probably can't pay much, but if so then it only means he'll go broke fighting it.

O.J. Simpson never paid a cent.

Quote: kewlj

So basically, you can walk into a bar, walk up to the biggest dude there and slug him. Then 2 minutes later when you are getting your ass kicked and fear for your life, you can pull out your gun and shot him. And that is crazy.

But that is not what happened. Zimmerman did nothing wrong and he was attacked. What you are saying is that if you are attacked you should not be able to defend yourself.

I hope he is found not guilty as he never should have been tried in the first place. If he is found guilty we are all less safe.

I hope that Zimmerman gets off. I strongly suspect that he will be acquitted. If he is convicted, then he will, at most, receive a manslaughter conviction.

I feel that he was completely overcharged, because of politics, and racism. By the way, isn't Zimmerman part black as well? I think his great grandfather was black. Regardless, he evidently isn't black enough for the inner city, because the black racists there still called him a "cracker".

Go figure. Racism sucks.

Quote: Keyser

By the way, isn't Zimmerman part black as well?

He is half-white and half hispanic, hence the CNN term "white hispanic."

By their logic Obama is a white african-american.

AZDuffman,

You comment doesn't make sense. Because as we all know, there is no logic on CNN.