odiousgambit
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May 8th, 2013 at 4:45:13 PM permalink
Kinda surprised to come across this, with Michael not mentioning it. Unless I missed it.

Pretty quick decision there, seems to me. Listen to some arguments, know instantly which side of the bread gets buttered, boom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6slReuErGU
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
sodawater
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:01:16 PM permalink
It's pretty strange that casino gaming revenue is "confidential" in Nevada but every penny of it is public knowledge in New Jersey.
superrick
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:16:18 PM permalink
Quote:

sodawater
It's pretty strange that casino gaming revenue is "confidential" in Nevada but every penny of it is public knowledge in New Jersey.



What's so strange about it, Vegas is in the wild, wild west? Didn't you ever read any of the post about the rules that they don't have on the dice here in this state?



Casinos wouldn't cheat, now would they. If this is what this was all about!
Is there something wrong with the pay outs? Inquiring minds want to know?
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
rxwine
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:34:02 PM permalink
Casinos still have a motive to protect the information besides cheating. They don't want to have to sweat real competition.

What casino wants to be known as the #1 stingiest payback? None.

Not that I'm on their side -- just sayin'
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
sodawater
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:39:14 PM permalink
i'm pretty proud to play in a state where

1. they can't throw you out for being too good at blackjack

2. every cent of gaming win is reported and transparent.

wish the gov. didn't get rid of the CCC officers in every casino, but NJ still has the best regulation of gaming in the country.
FleaStiff
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:47:17 PM permalink
The proceeding was for a writ of mandamus.

It is an extraordinary writ that compels a government official to perform an act he is required to perform, rather than an act that is discretionary. For instance, if Mr. Unpopular Candidate wins an election, the Secretary of State of the State of Nevada must issue a Certificate of Election and can not say, I only issue certificates for candidates that I like. A writ of mandamus would compel the official to perform the duty that he is obligated to perform.

I would say the case was perhaps poorly argued but the points raised were proper:

The court wanted to know if the proceeding is premature. Obviously the judge did not want to issue an order if there were administrative appeals still available to Petitioner Shackleford.

The court wanted to know the number of casinos involved and Petitioner's counsel should have had a number ready at the tip of his tongue.

The court was concerned about casinos having had notice and opportunity to be heard in the matter and that should have been taken care of in at least some respect.

The essential point is that Petitioner's counsel mentioned the information sought is often advertised by the casinos, although little information about this was given. Petitioner was seeking authoritative information from the Commission to substantiate such advertising claims but the statute declares the data to be confidential.

The best Peitioner Shackleford's counsel could argue is that the Commision issues such information for a variety of geographical areas and is now merely being asked to issue a line by line listing rather than a total summation.

The argument was that money in/money out to a slot machine is no more indicative of profit than the cost of booze purchased and the total revenue from a casino's bar is not really all that convincing.
SanchoPanza
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May 8th, 2013 at 5:57:37 PM permalink
Quote: superrick

Casinos wouldn't cheat, now would they. If this is what this was all about!
Is there something wrong with the pay outs?

If there is an appeal or a similar case is filed in the future, it might be a good tactic to show photos or videotapes of the blatant advertising and try to present the case as an honesty-in-advertising issue. New Jersey, for instance, regulates extremely tightly all such claims about odds, percentages and the like.
superrick
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May 8th, 2013 at 6:23:17 PM permalink
I know that there was a time that Sam's Town was advertising $3 craps on their electronic sign out front of the casino and around town. They had a player challenge the fact they they told him they did not have a $3 game, it was now a $5 game, when it was still on the sign out front and around town.

On the weekends they raise the table to a $5 game now and they no longer have the signs around town offering a $3 game!

That may seem like nothing to argue over, but when you have 20 times odds it came make the difference between winning and losing for the day.

Sam's Town bills it's self as a local casino, and a lot of their players only use small buy-ins when playing craps!
Note, all my post start with this is just my opinion...! You do good brada ..! superrick Winning comes from knowledge and skill when your betting and not reading fiction http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/index.php ...
AlanMendelson
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May 8th, 2013 at 7:46:43 PM permalink
Listening to what the judge and what the gaming commission lawyer said, I think a valid action would be to seek confirming data from any casino which claims to have a certain payback percentage. That is information that should be public. But if a casino did not advetise payback percentages I can understand why that data could be protected.

In fact, if a casino company advertised a certain payback percentage I think the Federal Trade Commission might even get involved because it's probably advertised on a website and that is interstate commerce.
Wizard
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May 8th, 2013 at 7:59:04 PM permalink
I'm surprised somebody found it already. I was going to publish a page on it today, but am still waiting for my proofreader to give me an uncorrupted version of it. I'll refrain from comment until the whole story is published.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
rxwine
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May 8th, 2013 at 8:49:24 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

In fact, if a casino company advertised a certain payback percentage I think the Federal Trade Commission might even get involved because it's probably advertised on a website and that is interstate commerce.




(be sure and send along photos or ads of payback)

Quote:

The Federal Trade Commission, the nation's consumer protection agency, collects complaints about companies, business practices, identity theft, and episodes of violence in the media.

Your complaints can help us detect patterns of wrong-doing, and lead to investigations and prosecutions. The FTC enters all complaints it receives into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database that is used by thousands of civil and criminal law enforcement authorities worldwide. The FTC does not resolve individual consumer complaints.



https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
odiousgambit
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May 9th, 2013 at 12:23:43 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I'm surprised somebody found it already.



Ah, the internet. Privacy gone, you know.

I am subscribed to your input at you-tube. There it was!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DJTeddyBear
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May 9th, 2013 at 5:25:51 AM permalink
I hope the official page includes a transcript.
I had a hard time understanding what the judge said.

Frankly, I'm shocked that Gaming is claiming that they don't have the numbers requested.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
onenickelmiracle
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May 9th, 2013 at 5:37:23 AM permalink
My biggest complaint about slot payback info is it is misleading because it includes FP awarded through the players' clubs. It is not a requirement to join a players club, so numbers should not include them or numbers should indicate both. The Meadows in PA is a big benefactor of this because the player makes a bet and is reimbursed afterwards, thereby adding to both pays and plays, pushing them to the top in PA, which I think they do not deserve.
I am a robot.
onenickelmiracle
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May 9th, 2013 at 6:10:31 AM permalink
"Information we don't normally make" implies they have it.
Maybe you can ask for each machine a casino has and for proof they are above the minimum payback required by law and for more than a yes or no answer. This would be so burdensome, they might give in. How proof they are requiring with the law is confidential makes no sense to me.
I am a robot.
Wizard
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May 9th, 2013 at 2:31:02 PM permalink
I just posted the whole story on my Odds site. Please see my blog entry titled Lack of Freedom of Information Act.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Ahigh
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May 9th, 2013 at 2:54:31 PM permalink
I respect your dumping $3,000 at this problem. I know how it can be to dump money into something that has very little chance of coming back to anything besides proof that you are willing to dump a lot of money to come to a conclusion that you both expect to come to and still has no effect on anything.

I built the die balancing device to convince the biased dice conspiracy theorists that there was no reason to worry and I won't have that time or money come back either. But oh boy, what a can of worms that one!

It sure would be nice to get you more involved in the details of dice as there is some nuggets in there I think. There's a group think going on that everything is 100% fair, and I have more evidence than I have shared.

But there are more than just a few similarities between these two stories from my perspective. Especially considering the "it is what it is and we're not going to change it" mentality.
aahigh.com
Paigowdan
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May 9th, 2013 at 3:09:42 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just posted the whole story on my Odds site. Please see my blog entry titled Lack of Freedom of Information Act.



1:20, a lay....some odds...."I'll pay you an extra 20:1 if we win this thing by some miracle...even with you as my lawyer, we don't [yada, yada, yada......]" A difficult road.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
TIMSPEED
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May 9th, 2013 at 3:12:59 PM permalink
Without gaming, Nevada would absolutely cease to exist...if everyone knew the absolute payback of every bet/machine/table...would those casinos be in business?
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
rxwine
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May 9th, 2013 at 3:14:43 PM permalink
Quote: TIMSPEED

Without gaming, Nevada would absolutely cease to exist...if everyone knew the absolute payback of every bet/machine/table...would those casinos be in business?



Well, they can know the table games percentages (if they want to) and they play a lot of those.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Wizard
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May 9th, 2013 at 3:18:34 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I respect your dumping $3,000 at this problem.



Thanks. What other webmaster of a gambling website would do so?

Quote:

It sure would be nice to get you more involved in the details of dice as there is some nuggets in there I think.



If you want to discuss that, please make another thread for it. Since it isn't about dice influence, but biased dice, I'll allow it. However, I'm going to want to see a large sampling of throws under casino conditions before I take much interest. I do not want to hear any adjectives in your argument.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FleaStiff
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May 9th, 2013 at 4:13:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just posted the whole story on my Odds site. Please see my blog entry titled Lack of Freedom of Information Act.


Okay, I've tried from time to time to be humorous about what passes for truth, justice and the American Way in Las Vegas.

Heck, for over a decade their Senator lived in Santa Monica, CA rather than anywhere in Nevada but the politician was no fool, any of his constituents phone him and it was a ten cent call that appeared to be to Nevada! When you've got deception right at the top, deception is what flows downhill!

I've often compared Vegas to Honest John's Used Car Lot which is something I stole from some Hollywood script writer somewhere or something. There is gaudy hucksterism but not much truth in all that glad handing going on for the camera.

If there was TRUTH in Las Vegas would things be all that bad? Would they turn off all those glittering lights? Would all those Beverly Hills plastic surgeons really repossess all those implants? I have a feeling there would be a few yawns and life would return to what passes for normal in Vegas.

When the USA listed all those tars in cigarettes and concluded that all brands were pretty much the same... some lawyer looked at the list and knew there had to be someone at the top and at the bottom, even if the difference was meaningless. Its the same with the Wizard's list of slot revenue from several years ago. Its not really worth treking around town but someone is sure to show up at the joint at the bottom.

We don't make debutantes advertise the amount of their unfinished dentistry and we don't make debutantes reveal their actual wealth. There are some things we keep private, but in the world of commerce particularly when that commerce involves a great deal of commercial advertising, there is a concern for an end to hucksterism and a concern for fair, honest and open dealing.

We know gamblers are plied with booze, subjected to flashing lights and blaring music as well as seductive entertainment ... but I see no need for that not to also be room for honesty.

The casinos will still strive for a mixture of slot machines even if data is eventually released. People will still make decisions based on their favorite colors rather than on math to the fourth decimal place. Vegas will not grind to a halt if honesty appears on the horizon.
A casino across town or a slot machine across the aisle can still be ignored by players who mill about not even seeking the truth.

On the very narrow aspect, the court was correct. No mandamus writ will issue if the act is discretionary rather than required by law. However, its obvious that the information exists since the totals for various categories are created from a listing of the individual licensees in those categories.
Wizard
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May 9th, 2013 at 4:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

On the very narrow aspect, the court was correct. No mandamus writ will issue if the act is discretionary rather than required by law. However, its obvious that the information exists since the totals for various categories are created from a listing of the individual licensees in those categories.



What good is the FOIA if the requested information must be specifically required to be provided upon request? If whatever government agency wanted to give it out, then they would just publish it. The purpose of the act was government transparency. Anything that isn't specifically made secret should be available to the public. For example, I don't think the general public needs to know how to enrich uranium, and I would respect that as an exception. However, in my case, there was no exception for what I asked for. At least that is how I saw it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
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May 9th, 2013 at 6:13:15 PM permalink
It might be easier to find out all the possible return percentages of machines that are approved by the gaming commission. I think most of them are provided with a half a dozen possible returns. If some of them have possible returns below 75% then presumably the casino is not permitted to use those settings. Then you could FOIA the data that the Commission uses to determine of the casinos are in compliance, or even if they collect data on what settings the individual casinos use.
s2dbaker
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May 9th, 2013 at 6:21:45 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

What good is the FOIA if the requested information must be specifically required to be provided upon request? If whatever government agency wanted to give it out, then they would just publish it. The purpose of the act was government transparency. Anything that isn't specifically made secret should be available to the public. For example, I don't think the general public needs to know how to enrich uranium, and I would respect that as an exception. However, in my case, there was no exception for what I asked for. At least that is how I saw it.

I may be mistaken here, I'm not a lawyer, but the Freedom of Information Act signed by Lyndon Johnson applies to federal agencies. I don't think Nevada has a similar FOIA law for its government agencies.

I agree that you should have received the information requested since it is already being collected and regurgitated on a regional level. If the information is being calculated on a regional level then those numbers are most certainly coming from each individual casino within those regions. It would take no effort on the part of the casino control commission(? or whoever you were suing) to drill down and release the information requested. I don't know why they are stonewalling, perhaps you can get a state senator to request the information for you. Who have you made a campaign donation to? Call their office (they'll check to see how big your check was) and they'll put in a call for you.

There's more than one way to skin a casino control commission.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
Nareed
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May 9th, 2013 at 6:27:41 PM permalink
Getting information from a government agency about that agency is one thing. Government owes you any data you want, for any reason or even for no reason.

But obtaining a government agency's data gathered from private businesses or individuals is another matter. That data is mostly the property of businesses and individuals, and the government shouldn't just let any and all omers, with or without reason, to ahve at it. Would you like it if I could obtain data gathered from you by, say, the Social Security Adminsitration or the Internal Revenue Service?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
boymimbo
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May 9th, 2013 at 7:00:40 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

If you want to discuss that, please make another thread for it. Since it isn't about dice influence, but biased dice, I'll allow it. However, I'm going to want to see a large sampling of throws under casino conditions before I take much interest. I do not want to hear any adjectives in your argument.



It's all about Ahigh, don't you know.

I'm sorry that you didn't get far with the Nevada act. I think it was worth a challenge. However, I agree with Nareed that the casino's individual win % by denomination is in fact private information. Just because it is collected by the government doesn't make the information public. Gaming presents numbers as an aggregate for the industry.

Think of it this way: if you were successful and you were able to get this information from gaming, other casinos could also use this information to adjust their slot paybacks and to make claims. As well, individual numbers from individual casinos may give away future result numbers, such as a future quarterly result.

Or think about census collections. It's fine to present census demographics about a particular zip code, but it wouldn't be okay to give a demographic about you.

I think government information goes too far the other way. For example, I can login to Clark county and get property records based on last names. I can find out within a couple of minutes that a certain prolific poster's home (who has no problem publishing his name on a public forum) is 2,xx1 Square feet and was bought in 20xx for x11K. It's none of my business. Why do I have access to this, but don't have access to gaming records? I can look at marriage records too for Clark country --used it to order a record of my first marraage for divorce purposes.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wizard
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May 9th, 2013 at 7:35:44 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Would you like it if I could obtain data gathered from you by, say, the Social Security Adminsitration or the Internal Revenue Service?



Social Security appropriately has regulations to protect individual privacy. I started as a claims adjuster for the agency and was well trained on what I could and couldn't reveal in touchy cases involving paternity or marital history. I'm sure the IRS has similar rules. In the case of Gaming, they specifically don't reveal information on revenue, and I respect that. I would argue I never asked for revenue information. What I did ask for was not protected.

Nevertheless, I see their argument has some merit too. Remember, I laid 20 to 1 odds that I would lose.

Quote: s2dbaker

I may be mistaken here, I'm not a lawyer, but the Freedom of Information Act signed by Lyndon Johnson applies to federal agencies. I don't think Nevada has a similar FOIA law for its government agencies.



The states have their own version as well. Here we have the Nevada Open Information Act.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Paradigm
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May 9th, 2013 at 7:43:03 PM permalink
I thought that was Brandon in the video when I viewed it yesterday, nice to see that confirmed! I still have his card from the G2E dinner gathering, he is my attorney of choice should I need one in LV!
midwestgb
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May 9th, 2013 at 8:24:42 PM permalink
Mike/Brandon,

Congrats on taking this thing on. I cannot recall a time in my 28 years in practice having seen a Judge enter a ruling and DECLINE ENTIRELY to offer any explanation or rationale for his decision. Other than to say: "I agree with Respondent." A sad commentary indeed on the state of Nevada Jurisprudence.

If there is still time to effect an appeal, I will be pleased to make a contribution to the appeal fund...
Ahigh
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May 9th, 2013 at 8:38:21 PM permalink
I would also like to make a point about this plea with the casino. Casinos should be under more scrutiny of the public eye than a "regular" business with so-called "confidential information."

To make an analogy, the disclosure being sought here, if this were a cigarette manufacturer instead of a casino being under the spotlight, the question would be if the amount of nicotine should be disclosed in the product or if cigarette manufacturers could just claim "least nicotine of any cigarette and most satisfying of all of them!" while simply lying to get their customers hooked.

IE: there is a public safety issue at hand. If you firmly believe you are gambling with the best possible edge due to marketing and you go and lose all of your money as a result of misplaced trust, it could lead to problems in your life as a result of being deceived into thinking your losses would be less than they in fact turn out to be.
aahigh.com
Wizard
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May 10th, 2013 at 6:21:14 AM permalink
Quote: midwestgb

Congrats on taking this thing on. I cannot recall a time in my 28 years in practice having seen a Judge enter a ruling and DECLINE ENTIRELY to offer any explanation or rationale for his decision. Other than to say: "I agree with Respondent." A sad commentary indeed on the state of Nevada Jurisprudence.



Thanks. I'd be interested to hear from other attorneys on the forum how unusual it is for a judge to make a ruling without any comment why.

Quote:

If there is still time to effect an appeal, I will be pleased to make a contribution to the appeal fund...



Thanks for offering. You're the first to do so. However, I wasn't planning on appealing it. Seems like throwing good money after bad.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
FleaStiff
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May 10th, 2013 at 7:01:31 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Seems like throwing good money after bad.

In a state where Gambling is King, that could be right.

I think the court may have been confused whether this was a straight mandamus writ application wherein the sole standard is "does a duty exist" or whether this was an enforcement of a FOIA filing wherein an exception was claimed and the issue was the sufficiency of the exception grounds claimed.

The court basically delegated the opinion writing to the Respondent.

It might have gone better if the Petitioner had emphasized that the data already revealed showed that there was not all that much variation amongst the individual licensees. So that the court was not being asked to reveal more the 'pennies' column than the 'dollars' column, but to do so in an authoritative citation rather than a geographical linkage.
Nareed
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May 10th, 2013 at 7:41:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

I would also like to make a point about this plea with the casino. Casinos should be under more scrutiny of the public eye than a "regular" business with so-called "confidential information."



Perhaps. But why should publilc scrutiny require government force?

Quote:

IE: there is a public safety issue at hand.



I don't see that at all. It's not like a casino will make you gamble and take your money.

There is a great potential for fraud in electronic games, yes. Also in table games, though that's more complicated. Take a VP machine. it may have a paytable that will return 99.9% assuming a random drawing of the elctronic deck. But since the deck is virtual and the player can't see it at all, the machine could eb programmed, easily, to cheat.

That's the same issue as with online gaming. I can't know that an online casino is honest. It could cheat so easily, the cost of doing so may be "reasonable" for any criminal-minded person to engage in. So I don't gamble online.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Boz
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May 10th, 2013 at 8:38:12 AM permalink
I still find it interesting that New Jersey releases all this data and more each month, yet Nevada for some reason does not want to.
pacomartin
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May 10th, 2013 at 9:28:16 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

I still find it interesting that New Jersey releases all this data and more each month, yet Nevada for some reason does not want to.



I talked to a fairly high level analyst at the NGC. He said that there are many people in the Commission who feel that the Nevada Laws are outdated as nearly every other gaming jurisdiction releases specific information on each business.

The general argument seems to be that in most states casinos are very protected by the state, and the state in turn takes a huge percentage of the gaming profits. So in turn the public has a right to know details on returns.

It's a sliding scale, and admittedly the newer jurisdictions like PA provide more protection to each casino from competition. In turn PA takes over half the revenue from the slot machines. In PA people are not likely to drive 50 miles to a different casino over a fraction of a percent difference in retention percent of the slots.
boymimbo
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May 10th, 2013 at 10:02:37 AM permalink
In Ontario, casino results are protected. I used to have access to these numbers when I worked with OLG many years ago. However, the information (profitability for each denomination of slot by casino) was not available to the public and still isn't.

I'd like to see how far a FOI request would go here and if we could go so far as to get the PAR sheets for the slot machines. Me thinks that for the corporate owned casinos, I wouldn't get far as the government licenses the casinos in a revenue sharing arrangement. For the government owned casinos however, I might get somewhere.... hmmmm...
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
pacomartin
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May 10th, 2013 at 10:03:54 AM permalink
Mike

In your survey you did in 2002 , Slot Machine Odds in Las Vegas, you must know the rank order for each machine. Did Palms was set the machines in the 3rd loosest of 8 possible settings, or did they mix and match different settings. Did they use different settings on the same machine?

Were you trying to protect the information on the PARS sheets, or did you just think this was too much information to publish?
SONBP2
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May 10th, 2013 at 10:47:52 AM permalink
First, thanks to many of the positive comments on our efforts against Gaming. Second, I really appreciate that Mike allowed me to work on this case and represent him in this matter. Thirdly, I want to address a few things below concerning the writ and the hearing.

(1) Specifically the Writ was filed after we requested the information under the Nevada Open Information Act, which is Nevada's version of the Freedom of Information Act.

(2) Virtually anyone can file a Writ, so long as they have standing to demand some type of action from someone else. We satisfied this requirement as Mike was a resident of Las Vegas.

(3) In our opposition to Gaming's motion to dismiss, which was denied, we provided exhaustive information concerning the wide spread use in other jurisdictions of specific slot payback percentage information. One thing that was raised by FleaStiff was the notification requirement raised by Gaming. There were two issues with this: (a) to properly serve all Nevada casinos, it would have cost several thousand dollars; and (b) the statute only requires notice to a non-party if the court determines that the Petitioner is entitled to the information, but information sought was confidential. Our primary argument was that the information sought was not confidential, therefore no notice was required. If the court determined that the information sought was confidential, then we would gladly notify the casinos and give them the opportunity to dispute our request. It was frustrating that the Judge did not make any ruling on this specific issue. He denied our request, but there was nothing in the final Order that stated the information sought was confidential.

(4) In our additional briefing, we used several reports from Gaming's website clearly showing their use of slot payback percentage information by region and other specific areas in Las Vegas. Further we provided pictures of casinos advertising and marketing their slot payback percentage. The Judge however, did not make any statements concerning this evidence. Again frustrating.

(5) If you watch the video, or maybe it was in the first hearing on the motion to dismiss, I specifically stated we exhausted all avenues with Gaming before petitioning the court. Then the Judge, asked during my argument whether we exhausted all avenues with Gaming. As you can see in the video I paused for several seconds. I was thinking in my head, REALLY? Have I not repeated this several times already and second Gaming never even raised this as an issue. I believe Gaming would have raised this as an issue immediately by stating we failed to request a hearing or file a proper appeal, but Gaming never challenged the process we took.

(6) Finally, Mike has the opportunity to appeal this decision to the Supreme witin 30 days of entry of the final order, which is coming up very quickly. However, it is difficult, if not impossible, to convince a client to spend his time and money when the Court gave us so little feedback as to our position. In a separate case I am taking to the Supreme Court, the judge specifically stated at the end of the hearing, "If there was a case that needed guidance from a higher authority, I believe it may be this case, but based on the current law and our Supreme Court's previous rulings at this time I must rule against the Petitioner." That gave my client enough informationt to decide an appeal was worth his time and efforts. Unfortunately, we did not get that type of feedback in this matter.

Again, thanks for the comments, I am sure some criticism is always warranted, but I do believe we provided the court with sufficient information to make a ruling in our favor.
Wizard
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May 10th, 2013 at 10:50:42 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

In your survey you did in 2002 , Slot Machine Odds in Las Vegas, you must know the rank order for each machine. Did Palms was set the machines in the 3rd loosest of 8 possible settings, or did they mix and match different settings. Did they use different settings on the same machine?



They were very consistent, setting their nickel slots to 93% to 94%. It would be misleading to say they liked the 4th out of 8 settings, because different makes have different ranges and jumps between steps.

Quote:

Were you trying to protect the information on the PARS sheets, or did you just think this was too much information to publish?



Yes. I have never released the PAR sheets I used in the study.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
jon
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May 10th, 2013 at 11:34:15 AM permalink
I watched the video. The judge seemed disinterested and looked like he didn't even read the briefs. It is common for a judge to decline to write a written opinion on a motion when they just don't even want to take the time. I would love to see this case go to the Nevada Supreme Court. I doubt any trial judge would rule against the Attorney General's Office, imagine the backlash he would face.
FleaStiff
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May 10th, 2013 at 11:37:12 AM permalink
Quote: SONBP2

I am sure some criticism is always warranted, but I do believe we provided the court with sufficient information to make a ruling in our favor.

I'm sure you did, but during oral argument its best to repeat it. Never assume the judge has read the supporting material.
JB
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May 10th, 2013 at 1:02:25 PM permalink
I applaud Mike's efforts to try to obtain information which need not be a secret.

It's clear to me that:

1) Gaming has the information being requested, and any claims to the contrary are BS.
2) The gaming representative is a fantastic actor.
3) The judge was completely clueless and sided with gaming because he didn't understand anything.
Zcore13
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May 10th, 2013 at 2:52:43 PM permalink
Quote: JB

I applaud Mike's efforts to try to obtain information which need not be a secret.

It's clear to me that:

1) Gaming has the information being requested, and any claims to the contrary are bullshit.
2) The gaming representative is a fantastic actor.
3) The judge was completely clueless and sided with gaming because he didn't understand anything.



I agree they have the info. No doubt about that.

The reason I believe the Judge rules against Mike is the very clear wording on what is "confidential revenue information" based on NRS 463.120:

"ALL information and data required to be furnished to the Board or Commission. relative to finances, earnings or revenue of a licensee is confidential."

Now I don't necessarily agree with the statute, but in my opionion, the statute as it is worded covers the information requested amd therefore does not have to be revealed.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
JohnnyQ
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May 10th, 2013 at 3:00:45 PM permalink
Quote: JB

I applaud Mike's efforts to try to obtain information which need not be a secret.

It's clear to me that:

1) Gaming has the information being requested, and any claims to the contrary are BS.
2) The gaming representative is a fantastic actor.
3) The judge was completely clueless and sided with gaming because he didn't understand anything.



Agreed !

Would the local newspaper take interest in this ? At least an article pointing out that they make
claims on "loosest" slots but then fail to prove it when asked ?
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
onenickelmiracle
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May 10th, 2013 at 3:06:59 PM permalink
The information isn't the problem, it's the excuse there isn't a document which provides it only. The gaming representative did imply it has existed by saying they don't normally have this information. To get media attention, there would have had to be an outburst of some kind, but still forgotten by tomorrow or the next day. I do agree I definitely had the impression the judge did not read anything before the hearing and it seemed like he was lying when he said, "refresh my memory".
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Wizard
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May 10th, 2013 at 3:18:45 PM permalink
I'd like to point out that I never even had the chance to explain how I was told by Gaming that they did have a spreadsheet showing overall slot payback percentages by casino, at least in down downtown.

It would be great if anybody in the local media took an interest in this story, but I doubt they will. Jeff Simpson was an outstanding reporter for the LVRJ, who I'm sure would have covered it. Unfortunately, he died in December 2011.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
pacomartin
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May 10th, 2013 at 3:43:12 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Jeff Simpson was an outstanding reporter for the LVRJ, who I'm sure would have covered it. Unfortunately, he died in December 2011.



I liked Jeff. He used to send me a number of e-mails regarding the stuff I had in the LV Business Press.

Quote: Wizard

They were very consistent, setting their nickel slots to 93% to 94%. It would be misleading to say they liked the 4th out of 8 settings, because different makes have different ranges and jumps between steps. Yes. I have never released the PAR sheets I used in the study.



Without releasing the actual PARS sheets can you say what the possible settings were on any specific machine (even if you don't identify the exact model). Did any casino use the loosest possible setting?
Wizard
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May 10th, 2013 at 4:26:16 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Without releasing the actual PARS sheets can you say what the possible settings were on any specific machine (even if you don't identify the exact model). Did any casino use the loosest possible setting?



I suppose I can give you that. One of the machines I surveyed was Fortune Cookie, which was popular at the time. The possible settings were:

85.032%
87.521%
90.035%
92.541%
94.010%
94.966%
96.190%
97.412%

This range was common for all the slots. The casinos towards the bottom usually went with the lowest, whatever it was. It got to be that I would sit down at a machine at certain unnamed casinos and just know it was the lowest setting, but I still played to verify it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
onenickelmiracle
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May 10th, 2013 at 4:46:52 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. I'd be interested to hear from other attorneys on the forum how unusual it is for a judge to make a ruling without any comment why.



Thanks for offering. You're the first to do so. However, I wasn't planning on appealing it. Seems like throwing good money after bad.


How much would an appeal cost? Is there a legal defense fund or could you make one?

The difference in payouts in the post above is amazing by the way. I never knew machines had 2% jumps like that and always assumed less difference in tinkering. Of course, I should have known better based on how the same machines at different casinos seemed so far away in fairness.
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