RonC
RonC
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November 1st, 2014 at 6:25:33 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

"Get out of bed before noon", why make that insulting comment (Mods, its a very light insult,no suspensions please)



Thanks for the laugh, Terps dude!!

In case it wasn't a joke and you were serious, he isn't talking about you...so there is no insult to a member of the forum.
AZDuffman
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November 1st, 2014 at 1:17:53 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I love early voting because voting for working people like me, its very tough.
I mean cmon, you don't want to give us working people in the cities a break.
"Get out of bed before noon", why make that insulting comment (Mods, its a very light insult,no suspensions please)
I have no idea why you think voters in a city like me have the option of getting up around noon.



Ron already explained it. But lets just say the kind of person who is too lazy to get an ID is probably too lazy to get up before noon.

Quote:

I get up at 6am. I could get up later but I would rather take a longer bike ride to work then the quicker drive so I set my alarm clock earlier.
If I am lucky, I only have a 30 min widow to vote at the end of the day. If held up at work which is common, I have no opportunity to vote.



So you are saying you cannot find time in an 11 hour window to vote? Any place I lived the polls opened about 7:00 AM and stayed open until 8:00 PM, and as long as you were in line by 8 you got to vote. This is plenty of time for 95% of people to get to the polls, those that have unusual jobs like OTR truckers and oil workers to name two could always get an absentee ballot.

"Early Voting" is bad for secure elections and should be ended. Voting is not supposed to be as simple as ordering a pizza. OTOH the GOP is out in the lead early this year by most reports so the look for the liberals to want to shorten it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
terapined
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November 1st, 2014 at 2:37:32 PM permalink
I know the comment from you AZ "Get out of bed before noon" wasn't directed at me personally :-)
I just think its a terrible stereotype to imply that those in the city polling locations have long lines at night is due to not being able to get up before noon.
A more logical explanation to these long lines is due to people waiting after work to vote.
Your average person rushes to work in the morning, the free time comes after work, when most in the city vote.
Long lines discourages voting.
This is a democracy.
The right to vote shouldn't have to depend on having to get up an hour earlier, say 5am instead of 6am, on election day.
Sonuvabish
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November 1st, 2014 at 3:16:02 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

Where did you hear this http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2014/02/do-you-have-to-carry-id-with-you-at-all-times.html . In no state are you required to have an ID or face a fine.



They can cite you for loitering, for one. Obstructing a police officer. They can also detain you to verify your identity if they have cause. It is also illegal not to carry an ID in certain places. You're right, a fine isn't really an issue since it mostly applies to poor people...being arrested because you pissed off the cop is the concern.

There is no U.S. Supreme Court law that says you have to carry an ID in general. There's also no law that says a state or locality can't make up it's own law regarding the issue. There have been laws in the past that were struck down as vague; it stands to reason that other jurisdictions made up similar laws that were not struck down.

I have no problem with requiring ID for people to vote. Enough idiots are at the polls already. How many geniuses fail to obtain IDs?
RonC
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November 1st, 2014 at 3:24:04 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I know the comment from you AZ "Get out of bed before noon" wasn't directed at me personally :-)
I just think its a terrible stereotype



It is a true statement about too many people--I am willing to bet money that, in spite of your opposition to voter ID laws, that you have the proper ID that would be required just about every time you leave the house.

The people that statement pertains to are the ones living off the government, not wanting to do anything but live off the government, wanting to have their children live of the government who can't be bothered to get out of bed early to get their kids to see the doctor and then complain about there being no appointments when they finally feel like getting up. They are the same people who can't be bothered to get an ID even if it is free because they have so much to do...

People tell me that those type of people don't really exist, people on assistance don't really drive nice cars, etc. but I can tell you that they are all full of shit. There is a percentage of people who live a life that is so drastically different from the rest of us that we should be appalled that we are supporting it. It isn't a "stereotype" that I have--it is something I have witnessed personally.

It isn't city people; it is a subset of the welfare crowd that make people hate the way welfare works...and a group willing to holler "that violates my rights" at the drop of the hat just because something takes an extra five minutes to do.

Liberals have no real argument against good, solid voter ID laws. They also have no reason to protect the voting booth.
petroglyph
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November 1st, 2014 at 5:29:20 PM permalink
The next thing you know, the authorities are going to want 30 million illegals to have I.D. also.

Although TP complained about comments that voters wouldn't get out of bed so they couldn't vote was too harsh, I did not see him refute it.

There are sets and sub sets of people and some stereotypes although opinionated are also often true.

The thing about the voting lines. Arn't all those "folks" [now I hate that term] volunteers? Quit complaining and get down there and be a part of the procedure. There are too many critics already.

Talking about subsets, we all know there are those would be voters that stayed up at night torching some left handed and just forgot it was election day, or just had to eat donuts till the polls closed. Like a vote mattered? hahaha sure it does. The only change that will help these people is civil disobedience ala Howard Zinn, or occupy non infiltrated.
petroglyph
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November 1st, 2014 at 7:58:19 PM permalink


http://libertyblitzkrieg.com/2014/10/31/wall-street-spends-record-sum-in-midterm-election-betting-on-republican-puppets-this-time/

"the American public knows that it doesn’t matter which Democrat of Republican crony they vote for. In contrast, Wall Street understands it still needs to sponsor the winning puppet." Citizens United, lol.. the owners are just having a little fun with oxymorons, citizens united hehe..hehehe. They must about pee themselves everytime somebody brings that up and here we are, haggling over a few would be voters.
SanchoPanza
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November 2nd, 2014 at 11:34:52 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

The next thing you know, the authorities are going to want 30 million illegals to have I.D. also.

It is nothing like "the authorities are going to want . . ." It is longstanding and crystal-clear Federal law, as the Supreme Court has noted:
"Under federal law, the failure to carry registration papers is a misdemeanor that may be punished by a fine, imprisonment, or a term of probation. See 8 U. S. C. §1304(e) (2006 ed.); 18 U. S. C. §3561."
SanchoPanza
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November 2nd, 2014 at 11:41:41 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

In no state are you required to have an ID or face a fine.

In the famous case of an innocent rancher right here in Nevada, Hiibel V. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court Of Nev., Humboldt Cty. (03-5554) 542 U.S. 177 (2004) 118 Nev. 868, 59 P.2d 1201, the refusal to present ID initiated the whole encounter and subsequent Supreme Court case:

"The officer asked him if he had “any identification on [him],” which we understand as a request to produce a driver’s license or some other form of written identification. The man refused and asked why the officer wanted to see identification. The officer responded that he was conducting an investigation and needed to see some identification. The unidentified man became agitated and insisted he had done nothing wrong. The officer explained that he wanted to find out who the man was and what he was doing there. After continued refusals to comply with the officer’s request for identification, the man began to taunt the officer by placing his hands behind his back and telling the officer to arrest him and take him to jail. This routine kept up for several minutes: the officer asked for identification 11 times and was refused each time. After warning the man that he would be arrested if he continued to refuse to comply, the officer placed him under arrest."
Twirdman
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November 2nd, 2014 at 12:34:50 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

In the famous case of an innocent rancher right here in Nevada, Hiibel V. Sixth Judicial Dist. Court Of Nev., Humboldt Cty. (03-5554) 542 U.S. 177 (2004) 118 Nev. 868, 59 P.2d 1201, the refusal to present ID initiated the whole encounter and subsequent Supreme Court case:

"The officer asked him if he had “any identification on [him],” which we understand as a request to produce a driver’s license or some other form of written identification. The man refused and asked why the officer wanted to see identification. The officer responded that he was conducting an investigation and needed to see some identification. The unidentified man became agitated and insisted he had done nothing wrong. The officer explained that he wanted to find out who the man was and what he was doing there. After continued refusals to comply with the officer’s request for identification, the man began to taunt the officer by placing his hands behind his back and telling the officer to arrest him and take him to jail. This routine kept up for several minutes: the officer asked for identification 11 times and was refused each time. After warning the man that he would be arrested if he continued to refuse to comply, the officer placed him under arrest."



You'll notice that case is about something completely different. That is whether you have to identify yourself to an officer when asked. The case Kolender v Lawson struck down a California law that required “credible and reliable” identification. There is a difference between being forced to identify one self and being forced to present identification. One is legal while the other is not.
Sonuvabish
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November 2nd, 2014 at 1:07:31 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

It is a true statement about too many people--I am willing to bet money that, in spite of your opposition to voter ID laws, that you have the proper ID that would be required just about every time you leave the house.

The people that statement pertains to are the ones living off the government, not wanting to do anything but live off the government, wanting to have their children live of the government who can't be bothered to get out of bed early to get their kids to see the doctor and then complain about there being no appointments when they finally feel like getting up. They are the same people who can't be bothered to get an ID even if it is free because they have so much to do...

People tell me that those type of people don't really exist, people on assistance don't really drive nice cars, etc. but I can tell you that they are all full of shit. There is a percentage of people who live a life that is so drastically different from the rest of us that we should be appalled that we are supporting it. It isn't a "stereotype" that I have--it is something I have witnessed personally.

It isn't city people; it is a subset of the welfare crowd that make people hate the way welfare works...and a group willing to holler "that violates my rights" at the drop of the hat just because something takes an extra five minutes to do.

Liberals have no real argument against good, solid voter ID laws. They also have no reason to protect the voting booth.



The type of people u are describing are just gaming the system. Like what card counters do in blackjack. They tend to be smarter than average. I have zero problem with it. My issue lies with the system that has such gaping loopholes.
It's true that there's not really a good reason to not have ID and I have no problem with such a law per se. But let's face it...the laws are designed to decrease voter turnout so that the numbers skew for Republicans, has nothing to do with anything except that.
rxwine
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November 2nd, 2014 at 1:27:53 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Although TP complained about comments that voters wouldn't get out of bed so they couldn't vote was too harsh, I did not see him refute it.

There are sets and sub sets of people and some stereotypes although opinionated are also often true.



Thought this was a curious claim, since stereotypes aren't limited to lazy welfare democrat voters. Then the anti-minority vote suppressing republican stereotype exists also.

If stereotypes have merit, it doesn't generate a win for one side or the other. There are plenty of stereotypes for all levels of society. If they all have some merit than everyone has legitimacy to their complaints.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
petroglyph
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November 2nd, 2014 at 2:39:43 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Quote:

Thought this was a curious claim, since stereotypes aren't limited to lazy welfare democrat voters.


Of course not.

Quote:

Then the anti-minority vote suppressing republican stereotype exists also.

Agreed, but I don't think it a majority. Everyone votes their own pocketbook. Imo, the selection is already so thoroughly vetted, it matters not who is "elected".

Quote:

it doesn't generate a win for one side or the other. There are plenty of stereotypes for all levels of society. If they all have some merit than everyone has legitimacy to their complaints.

Pretty much. Sure, you can complain all you want, after all its a free country. But never ever question the system itself, that might get you two to the back of the head if you are anyone of significance who has the potential to make any difference.

I love this scene from "Lord of War" and is generally how I see it, start at 2:50 http://youtu.be/UTK8torOylM
mickeycrimm
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November 2nd, 2014 at 2:43:46 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

But let's face it...the laws are designed to decrease voter turnout so that the numbers skew for Republicans, has nothing to do with anything except that.



And lack of enforcement of immigration laws has everything to do with democrats picking up votes.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
RonC
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November 2nd, 2014 at 3:11:48 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

And lack of enforcement of immigration laws has everything to do with democrats picking up votes.



...and they spend all their time hollering about how unfair it is to show an ID. I bet none of them has ever complained about showing an ID to cash a check!

Anyway...no matter what is said about making it easier to obtain proper ID, they continue with the same "suppress the vote" crap. It anyone really wanted to suppress the vote, they'd just ask people to name the capitals of twenty states!
beachbumbabs
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November 2nd, 2014 at 3:21:50 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

The type of people u are describing are just gaming the system. Like what card counters do in blackjack. They tend to be smarter than average. I have zero problem with it. My issue lies with the system that has such gaping loopholes.
It's true that there's not really a good reason to not have ID and I have no problem with such a law per se. But let's face it...the laws are designed to decrease voter turnout so that the numbers skew for Republicans, has nothing to do with anything except that.



Exactly. Thank you.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RonC
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November 2nd, 2014 at 5:21:09 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

he type of people u are describing are just gaming the system. Like what card counters do in blackjack. They tend to be smarter than average. I have zero problem with it. My issue lies with the system that has such gaping loopholes.



No, they aren't "gaming the system"--they are lying about things and cheating to so what they do. They don't have to be smart; the example has been set for them and they want to live just like the others.

Card counters work at a craft--those scums work at stealing from us. Huge difference. Card counting is not illegal. Cheating is.

Ridiculous comparison...not worthy of the counters here...


Quote: Sonuvabish

It's true that there's not really a good reason to not have ID and I have no problem with such a law per se. But let's face it...the laws are designed to decrease voter turnout so that the numbers skew for Republicans, has nothing to do with anything except that.



Quote: beachbumbabs

Exactly. Thank you.



You're right. It is so obvious. Republicans only want Republicans to vote. Democrats want more Democrats to vote so they aren't in favor of anything that might protect the vote.

If they were in favor of actually protecting the vote, they'd tell those pesky Republicans that they had passed legislation making penalties for voter fraud so bad that people just won't do it...so the reason for voter ID laws wouldn't be important to the Republicans any more. Everyone reasonable would be happy with the compromise of eliminating most potential voter fraud.

C'mon, Democrats...step up!!
petroglyph
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November 2nd, 2014 at 5:32:10 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

The type of people u are describing are just gaming the system. Like what card counters do in blackjack. They tend to be smarter than average. I have zero problem with it.

Quote:

My issue lies with the system that has such gaping loopholes.

So do you favor complete control??


Quote:

But let's face it...the laws are designed to decrease voter turnout so that the numbers skew for Republicans,

Did the election just sneak up on everybody?
SanchoPanza
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November 2nd, 2014 at 6:28:21 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

You'll notice that case is about something completely different. That is whether you have to identify yourself to an officer when asked.

And in the landmark Hiibel case, it was precisely the request for documentation that started the case. A fact that the Supreme Court backed up.
SanchoPanza
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November 2nd, 2014 at 6:31:17 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

The type of people u are describing are just gaming the system. Like what card counters do in blackjack. They tend to be smarter than average. I have zero problem with it. My issue lies with the system that has such gaping loopholes.

People receiving public assistance have to declare the facts of their situations. If they do not do so truthfully, they are in clear violation of a number of federal and local laws.
boymimbo
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November 2nd, 2014 at 7:32:09 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Ron already explained it. But lets just say the kind of person who is too lazy to get an ID is probably too lazy to get up before noon.



So you are saying you cannot find time in an 11 hour window to vote? Any place I lived the polls opened about 7:00 AM and stayed open until 8:00 PM, and as long as you were in line by 8 you got to vote. This is plenty of time for 95% of people to get to the polls, those that have unusual jobs like OTR truckers and oil workers to name two could always get an absentee ballot.

"Early Voting" is bad for secure elections and should be ended. Voting is not supposed to be as simple as ordering a pizza. OTOH the GOP is out in the lead early this year by most reports so the look for the liberals to want to shorten it.



Sure, plenty of people cannot find 11 hour windows.

Salespeople on the road.
Consultants on travel gigs (I miss election days most of the time; I'm on the road)
People at conventions.
People visiting their sick relative.
People in the hospital suffering.
Business people forced to work overtime.
People working 12 hour shifts and face a long hours-long line on either end of their shifts.
Single parents who can't afford / get child care to wait in said line.
People working two jobs.
People without transportation to their polling station.

That's why alternate voting days and mail-in ballots are necessary.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
rxwine
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November 2nd, 2014 at 8:02:00 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Sure, plenty of people cannot find 11 hour windows.

Salespeople on the road.
Consultants on travel gigs (I miss election days most of the time; I'm on the road)
People at conventions.
People visiting their sick relative.
People in the hospital suffering.
Business people forced to work overtime.
People working 12 hour shifts and face a long hours-long line on either end of their shifts.
Single parents who can't afford / get child care to wait in said line.
People working two jobs.
People without transportation to their polling station.

That's why alternate voting days and mail-in ballots are necessary.



About 6800 people in the US die daily. Chances are, a lot of related families of voting age have been able to vote over the years, because something like that occurred and these people were able to shift their plans. Family deaths take precedence over most activities.

I don't want any part of the "screw you if you didn't get to vote" if that is the attitude of the Republican party.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
petroglyph
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November 2nd, 2014 at 8:28:13 PM permalink
Only 50-60% of registered voters vote and in midterm, less. This is from 2010.

http://www.wnyc.org/story/99564-markey-two-way/

"So why this unbalanced electorate? Why don’t younger people, or people of color, or people who make less money, vote in greater numbers?"

This is another diversion. If they wanted to vote bad enough they would. In the same situation I am willing to bet that if AZ wanted, or if I wanted to vote, or Mickey or Babs or others, it would happen. Everyone here who knows, will agree with this. Is someone here trying to convince me the difference is ID? Really? This is just more propaganda, how can this be the most important topic on the "news"? How can that be the news of the day and this is not? http://downtrend.com/vsaxena/illegal-minors-to-get-50-million-resort-citizens-to-get-squat/ I read lately where they have hired hairdressers? What was the last you heard about this?

When I hear how hard it is for these "folks" to vote, I think of Rosa Parks, and how now there is a free shit army with their hand out and I get a little sick in my mouth.

This is Bruce Hornsby "The way it is", enjoy http://youtu.be/GlRQjzltaMQobGlQ
Twirdman
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November 2nd, 2014 at 8:45:02 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

And in the landmark Hiibel case, it was precisely the request for documentation that started the case. A fact that the Supreme Court backed up.



That is not what the supreme court ruled on though. It might have been a catalyst but the Supreme court only found that the Nevada law was legal and all the Nnevada law required was identifying yourself not showing proof of identity. The two are very seperate things and the court had held in Kolender v. Lawson that a person did not need to present written identification.
Twirdman
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November 2nd, 2014 at 8:53:39 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph



How can that be the news of the day and this is not? http://downtrend.com/vsaxena/illegal-minors-to-get-50-million-resort-citizens-to-get-squat/ I read lately where they have hired hairdressers? What was the last you heard about this?



The reason that is not top news is its a bold faced lie http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43607_Gateway_Pundit_Claims_the_Obama_Admin_Awarded_a_$50M_Contract_to_House_Migrant_Children-_A_Bald-Faced_Lie . Also its not reported on because it was canceled over these false reports. Are you one of the people who complained Acorn helped steal the 2012 election even though they ceased existing long before it?
petroglyph
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November 2nd, 2014 at 10:02:17 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

The reason that is not top news is its a bold faced lie http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43607_Gateway_Pundit_Claims_the_Obama_Admin_Awarded_a_$50M_Contract_to_House_Migrant_Children-_A_Bald-Faced_Lie . Also its not reported on because it was canceled over these false reports. Are you one of the people who complained Acorn helped steal the 2012 election even though they ceased existing long before it?



It was the first link I came to. Are you saying the whole thing about the 50+ thousand minors is fake? If so, share with me so I can eliminate that illusion from my memory and move on to some other conspiracy.

Am I one of those people that complained about Acorn? No, no more than any of the others. Never have I used Acorn by name other than the kind that litter the ground. If it has anything to do with politics, it is manipulated to serve someone.

http://www.krgv.com/news/hotel-to-undergo-transformation-into-immigrant-center/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-to-seek-38-billion-for-border-control-more-than-previously-signaled/2014/07/08/ac95a56e-06a9-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

http://americanthinker.com/blog/2014/06/stunning_dhs_solicited_bids_for_vendor_to_handle_65000_unaccompanied_minors__in_january.html

Is this all baloney? I just wondered what happened to all these people, are you saying they don't exist and its just another trick? My point wasn't that those people are staying in resort conditions.
Twirdman
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November 2nd, 2014 at 10:11:28 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

It was the first link I came to. Are you saying the whole thing about the 50+ thousand minors is fake? If so, share with me so I can eliminate that illusion from my memory and move on to some other conspiracy.

Am I one of those people that complained about Acorn? No, no more than any of the others. Never have I used Acorn by name other than the kind that litter the ground. If it has anything to do with politics, it is manipulated to serve someone.

http://www.krgv.com/news/hotel-to-undergo-transformation-into-immigrant-center/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-to-seek-38-billion-for-border-control-more-than-previously-signaled/2014/07/08/ac95a56e-06a9-11e4-bbf1-cc51275e7f8f_story.html

http://americanthinker.com/blog/2014/06/stunning_dhs_solicited_bids_for_vendor_to_handle_65000_unaccompanied_minors__in_january.html

Is this all baloney? I just wondered what happened to all these people, are you saying they don't exist and its just another trick? My point wasn't that those people are staying in resort conditions.



No those 50k people are totally true and they do cost money to handle it and those are discussions we can have. The link you brought up however is a made up story about a hotel that doesn't and won't exist and was n not costing 50 million dollars of taxpayer money like you implied. Just because a kernel of truth exist does not mean it is a true story. For instance I could say that the US government is paying 1.5 billion dollars to buy each of these 50k kids a mansion and a Butler. The kernel exist in that yes there are 50k+ immigrants but the mansions are total crap.
petroglyph
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November 2nd, 2014 at 10:58:01 PM permalink
Where did I say 50 million dollars?

Fifty mill is chump change for my government.

Again my issue isn't what it costs for these 50 thousand [or so] people, I wondered what has become of them and why it is not news? I don't attribute it to a left or right issue. I don't think in those terms.

I provided more links as you didn't like my first attempt. I wonder what has happened to all these kids, and since you mentioned it I wonder what it is costing? I wonder what kind of health care they receive, I wonder if ebola will break out in camp or wherever they are staying. I wonder about the priorities of a government gone astray, who is "supposed" to represent us?

http://usadebtclock.com/
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 12:53:40 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

People receiving public assistance have to declare the facts of their situations. If they do not do so truthfully, they are in clear violation of a number of federal and local laws.



I don't think you realize how easy it can be to technically qualify for assistance without lying when they are not in an emergency financial situation. I'm not talking about people committing outright fraud. I also think you are lumping people into one category...everyone not poor who is on welfare is a fraud. Not true. Most are following the rules. I think your attitude is completely unhelpful and is a reason why their fraud tip line is basically useless and just another added expense that you have to pay for.
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 12:58:22 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph



Did the election just sneak up on everybody?



Are you serious? The laws have a discriminatory intent, that's the problem with them. No one would have a problem with requiring ID in general. Everyone knows this.
AZDuffman
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November 3rd, 2014 at 2:44:32 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Sure, plenty of people cannot find 11 hour windows.

Salespeople on the road.
Consultants on travel gigs (I miss election days most of the time; I'm on the road)
People at conventions.
People visiting their sick relative.
People in the hospital suffering.
Business people forced to work overtime.
People working 12 hour shifts and face a long hours-long line on either end of their shifts.
Single parents who can't afford / get child care to wait in said line.
People working two jobs.
People without transportation to their polling station.

That's why alternate voting days and mail-in ballots are necessary.



I have been involved in several of these. An absentee ballot was always the answer, not the nonsense of "early voting." The reality is most of the reasons are just excuses and if you said the polls were only open on one day for a 11-12 hour window most of the "Single parents who can't afford / get child care to wait in said line" types would figure out a way. Easiest being just take the kids to the polling station. It is not worth the security risk just because some people have "busy lives."
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RonC
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November 3rd, 2014 at 3:26:13 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Are you serious? The laws have a discriminatory intent, that's the problem with them. No one would have a problem with requiring ID in general. Everyone knows this.



Once again, someone claims some form of harm without doing anything about it. Ask your Democrat politicians to write laws requiring ID because "no one would have a problem with it" if they did not have "discriminatory intent"--since Democrats want the polling place protected just as badly as the Republicans, write those laws from that side of the aisle and take out the possibility of "discriminatory intent".

Y'all crow on and on about some "discriminatory intent" because a few people along the way said some dumb things or had some dumb ideas, but the mainstream idea behind voter ID laws in the eyes of regular supporters is to protect the ballot box from ineligible voters watering down the legal vote. You quickly forget what one of your people said in a minute of absolute stupidity--something about passing the law to see what is in the law. Did that make the law bad in your eyes? Right...and some idiots on the other side don't make voter ID bad, either.
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 8:12:02 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Once again, someone claims some form of harm without doing anything about it. Ask your Democrat politicians to write laws requiring ID because "no one would have a problem with it" if they did not have "discriminatory intent"--since Democrats want the polling place protected just as badly as the Republicans, write those laws from that side of the aisle and take out the possibility of "discriminatory intent".

Y'all crow on and on about some "discriminatory intent" because a few people along the way said some dumb things or had some dumb ideas, but the mainstream idea behind voter ID laws in the eyes of regular supporters is to protect the ballot box from ineligible voters watering down the legal vote. You quickly forget what one of your people said in a minute of absolute stupidity--something about passing the law to see what is in the law. Did that make the law bad in your eyes? Right...and some idiots on the other side don't make voter ID bad, either.



1) I'm not writing to my politician.
2) I don't think, based on the lack of it ever being an issue in history, that Democrats care that much if people are required to have ID or not...but I'm pretty sure most people don't think it's a bad idea.
3) Discrimination is usually bad when it relates to people...unless you're white, then no slavery kinda is a bummer--admit it.
4) Fraud is not a serious problem...I'm not sure who's word you are taking that says otherwise.
5) Republicans want strict voter ID laws...your reasoning for the dichotomy between parties is what--democrats commit and approve of more illegal fraud?
6) Lost you at the end.
SanchoPanza
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November 3rd, 2014 at 1:01:07 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

I don't think you realize how easy it can be to technically qualify for assistance without lying when they are not in an emergency financial situation. I'm not talking about people committing outright fraud. I also think you are lumping people into one category...everyone not poor who is on welfare is a fraud. Not true. Most are following the rules. I think your attitude is completely unhelpful.

The "easy" qualification is well known. No one said, "Everyone not poor who is on welfare is a fraud." Many of us are well acquaianted with ailing or otherwise handicapped individuals, among other categories. But as the welfare reforms of the 90's demonstrated with such clarity, about one-third of the recipients had no business being on the assistance rolls.
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 1:21:36 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

The "easy" qualification is well known. No one said, "Everyone not poor who is on welfare is a fraud." Many of us are well acquaianted with ailing or otherwise handicapped individuals, among other categories. But as the welfare reforms of the 90's demonstrated with such clarity, about one-third of the recipients had no business being on the assistance rolls.



I'm talking about people gaming the system! You don't get it, do you? You probably at some point in your life qualified for welfare. You just didn't know it. Lots of rich-kid graduate students qualify for it.
RonC
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November 3rd, 2014 at 1:30:51 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

I'm talking about people gaming the system! You don't get it, do you? You probably at some point in your life qualified for welfare. You just didn't know it. Lots of rich-kid graduate students qualify for it.



Just to be clear--the people who are making a legal, if morally questionable, play to get welfare or other assistance are not the ones I was talking about it...as I am sure you already knew.
Boz
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November 3rd, 2014 at 2:48:11 PM permalink
Not having ID is just another example of the much larger problem in the country of why people that don't have anything are always looking to blame others for keeping them down when the person that has caused 99% of their problems in life in right in front of them in the mirror. But it is so much easier to blame others or a system. Other than the mentally or physically disabled, anyone can become rich in this country with hard work and effort. But too many, like those who will write how wrong I am, look for reasons NOT to succeed instead of finding ways to make it.

I for one am sick of paying higher tax rates for those who chose NOT to succeed each and every day with their actions. So I make more money than you....Great.....then I should pay more in taxes at the SAME rate as you. Not at a higher rate.

And this is why I will proudly vote Republican with my ID on Tuesday and enjoy watching Matthews and Maddow make excuses all night long. Its like my team winning the Super Bowl, knowing instead of a trophy, the end result is maybe, just maybe a few more people will have to make do with less handouts and take some responsibility for their life choices.

Or maybe that is wishful thinking. Either way it should be a good night for the good guys.
boymimbo
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November 3rd, 2014 at 4:25:13 PM permalink
Quote: Boz

Not having ID is just another example of the much larger problem in the country of why people that don't have anything are always looking to blame others for keeping them down when the person that has caused 99% of their problems in life in right in front of them in the mirror. But it is so much easier to blame others or a system. Other than the mentally or physically disabled, anyone can become rich in this country with hard work and effort. But too many, like those who will write how wrong I am, look for reasons NOT to succeed instead of finding ways to make it.

I for one am sick of paying higher tax rates for those who chose NOT to succeed each and every day with their actions. So I make more money than you....Great.....then I should pay more in taxes at the SAME rate as you. Not at a higher rate.

And this is why I will proudly vote Republican with my ID on Tuesday and enjoy watching Matthews and Maddow make excuses all night long. Its like my team winning the Super Bowl, knowing instead of a trophy, the end result is maybe, just maybe a few more people will have to make do with less handouts and take some responsibility for their life choices.

Or maybe that is wishful thinking. Either way it should be a good night for the good guys.



I hate to tell you this, but the republicans are not going to bring in a flat tax. There are poor republicans too. And there are plenty of republicans who look in the mirror and blame someone else for bringing them down, and usually it's the "LIVs".

Not everyone becomes rich in this country with hard work and effort. 99% of them don't. The one percent, most are either in the super-talented (aka, athletes, musicians, movie stars), or became rich because they were raised in an elite society. Even if you are not a "LIV", you have at most a 1% chance of working hard all of your life and becoming rich. Most of us outside of the "LIV" (of which I am one, well I'm Canadian, I don't count) work very hard to make a decent living. I am neither rich nor poor, and I don't really give a flying crap about being rich, for "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away."

I mean really, of all of the people on this forum, how many of us are rich due to hard work and effort? Most of us work hard and put alot of effort into their job and are not rich. In fact, due to the income gap which is growing, it is much more difficult to become one of the rich. That is statistically proven to be true.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 5:00:01 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

Just to be clear--the people who are making a legal, if morally questionable, play to get welfare or other assistance are not the ones I was talking about it...as I am sure you already knew.



No! I have no idea who you are talking about now. If you hate welfare because of the tiny proportion of people who steal, then why don't you hate everything? If there's no welfare, more people will steal...from you directly, you realize...and prices will rise to cover the cost. You can't afford that, so you need welfare. Doesn't exist. So now you're a thief. Without things like welfare, this country would have fallen apart a long time ago. We can get rid of welfare once we do a little bit of income redistribution. The gap between rich and poor is a major problem. Why do middle class, who are closer to being poor than to rich, want to vote for the interests of the rich? Because as John Steinbeck said...everyone is just a temporarily disappointed millionaire. It's pure insanity.
SanchoPanza
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November 3rd, 2014 at 5:34:28 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

I Lots of rich-kid graduate students qualify for it.

That criticism of the public assistance laws appears to go toward undercutting attempts to justify those laws.
Sonuvabish
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November 3rd, 2014 at 5:41:16 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

That criticism of the public assistance laws appears to go toward undercutting attempts to justify those laws.



All I'm saying is it's not illegal for people with nice cars and money to have welfare. Whatever you qualify for, you should take it. Obviously, there are some issues with the system.
RonC
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November 3rd, 2014 at 11:30:22 PM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

All I'm saying is it's not illegal for people with nice cars and money to have welfare. Whatever you qualify for, you should take it. Obviously, there are some issues with the system.



Public assistance should be part of a safety net designed to help people move forward. It shouldn't be a career.

We seem to agree...let's get it fixed!
AZDuffman
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November 4th, 2014 at 2:51:06 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



Not everyone becomes rich in this country with hard work and effort. 99% of them don't. The one percent, most are either in the super-talented (aka, athletes, musicians, movie stars), or became rich because they were raised in an elite society.



Come on, do you really believe that "the rich" just have everything handed to them?

Ask an athlete if they worked hard! Most athletes at the pro level will be putting in 60+ hour weeks. And they did the same all their lives to get to that level.

Ask a musician or movie star if they work hard. Musicians will have practiced all their lives for hours and hours a day, then work any place that would pay them until they might just might make it big. Then a life of perhaps 2-300 days a year on the road performing,

And I am not sure how "being raised in an elite society" lets you become rich without hard work. I know people who were raised among more well-off folks, but they almost all made their own money through their own hard work. Yes, there are a small number of "trust fund babies" and always will be, but please stop this nonsense about "the rich not working."

There are at least two major differences. One is that athletes have a service more people are willing to pay more to see. Nobody is going to pay to watch me abstract an oil lease, but they will pay to see Roethlisberger throw TDs. But I do not whine about it, I go on with the talents I have and have developed. Secondly, people who become rich take more risks. I now make more than I pretty much ever have, but there are no benefits and no paid time off. I can have my contract end at the drop of a hat. It is risk, but I take it because when I am working I will do better than I did when I had a job with benefits, PTO, and unemployment insurance. So many people I know think it I am crazy, but I will take it. Same thing happens when you start a business, no guarantees but potential big rewards.

But if you take the job "with benefits and time off!" you will get a few percent raise each year and nothing more as you deserve nothing more, you willingly traded upside for security.


Quote:

Even if you are not a "LIV", you have at most a 1% chance of working hard all of your life and becoming rich.

I mean really, of all of the people on this forum, how many of us are rich due to hard work and effort? Most of us work hard and put alot of effort into their job and are not rich. In fact, due to the income gap which is growing, it is much more difficult to become one of the rich. That is statistically proven to be true.



A 1% chance of making it an we call it the 1%--imagine that! Sorry but "effort" will not make you rich alone. The effort must also be properly placed. And once again I must ask why an "income gap" is a bad thing. Please, explain, because I do not see it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
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November 4th, 2014 at 2:51:07 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



Not everyone becomes rich in this country with hard work and effort. 99% of them don't. The one percent, most are either in the super-talented (aka, athletes, musicians, movie stars), or became rich because they were raised in an elite society.



Come on, do you really believe that "the rich" just have everything handed to them?

Ask an athlete if they worked hard! Most athletes at the pro level will be putting in 60+ hour weeks. And they did the same all their lives to get to that level.

Ask a musician or movie star if they work hard. Musicians will have practiced all their lives for hours and hours a day, then work any place that would pay them until they might just might make it big. Then a life of perhaps 2-300 days a year on the road performing,

And I am not sure how "being raised in an elite society" lets you become rich without hard work. I know people who were raised among more well-off folks, but they almost all made their own money through their own hard work. Yes, there are a small number of "trust fund babies" and always will be, but please stop this nonsense about "the rich not working."

There are at least two major differences. One is that athletes have a service more people are willing to pay more to see. Nobody is going to pay to watch me abstract an oil lease, but they will pay to see Roethlisberger throw TDs. But I do not whine about it, I go on with the talents I have and have developed. Secondly, people who become rich take more risks. I now make more than I pretty much ever have, but there are no benefits and no paid time off. I can have my contract end at the drop of a hat. It is risk, but I take it because when I am working I will do better than I did when I had a job with benefits, PTO, and unemployment insurance. So many people I know think it I am crazy, but I will take it. Same thing happens when you start a business, no guarantees but potential big rewards.

But if you take the job "with benefits and time off!" you will get a few percent raise each year and nothing more as you deserve nothing more, you willingly traded upside for security.


Quote:

Even if you are not a "LIV", you have at most a 1% chance of working hard all of your life and becoming rich.

I mean really, of all of the people on this forum, how many of us are rich due to hard work and effort? Most of us work hard and put alot of effort into their job and are not rich. In fact, due to the income gap which is growing, it is much more difficult to become one of the rich. That is statistically proven to be true.



A 1% chance of making it an we call it the 1%--imagine that! Sorry but "effort" will not make you rich alone. The effort must also be properly placed. And once again I must ask why an "income gap" is a bad thing. Please, explain, because I do not see it.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
1BB
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November 4th, 2014 at 3:40:51 AM permalink
I just voted! Maybe one of the first on this site. I like to vote early in case I want to go back later. :-)

To everyone voting for the lesser of two evils. You're still voting for evil.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Twirdman
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November 4th, 2014 at 5:50:00 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Come on, do you really believe that "the rich" just have everything handed to them?

Ask an athlete if they worked hard! Most athletes at the pro level will be putting in 60+ hour weeks. And they did the same all their lives to get to that level.

Ask a musician or movie star if they work hard. Musicians will have practiced all their lives for hours and hours a day, then work any place that would pay them until they might just might make it big. Then a life of perhaps 2-300 days a year on the road performing,



Your confusing necessary with sufficient. Baring stuff like heirs and people who win the lottery rich people have to work hard to get there. That is not sufficient though to make them rich. I don't care how hard the vast majority of people work they are unlikely to ever become anything resembling rich. Those that do become rich tended to have some sort of natural advantage that they were able to hone to make them rich whether that be athletic ability, intelligence, or good looks. Like me I will never no matter how much effort I put in become a star quarterback just don't have the body for it. More to the point though the vast majority of college football players will never turn pro even though many of them put in that 60+ hours a week.
RonC
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November 4th, 2014 at 6:27:04 AM permalink
Voted this morning after showing proper ID. Took less than five minutes start to finish; it would have taken less time for a straight-ticket but there are some races where I voted for the other party.
AZDuffman
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November 4th, 2014 at 6:33:49 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

Your confusing necessary with sufficient. Baring stuff like heirs and people who win the lottery rich people have to work hard to get there. That is not sufficient though to make them rich. I don't care how hard the vast majority of people work they are unlikely to ever become anything resembling rich. Those that do become rich tended to have some sort of natural advantage that they were able to hone to make them rich whether that be athletic ability, intelligence, or good looks. Like me I will never no matter how much effort I put in become a star quarterback just don't have the body for it. More to the point though the vast majority of college football players will never turn pro even though many of them put in that 60+ hours a week.



I am confusing not a thing. You just agreed that rich people have to work to get there. It is not that they had a natural advantage, it is that they took the advantage they had and worked with it. We have all seen or heard of people who could "make it big if they just put in the effort."

Correct, most college athletes will not make the pros after putting in long hours. To that I reply, "who cares?" Many people put in effort in many things and don't make it. That is life. But the sure thing is if you do not put in the effort you will not make it. Rich people did not become rich by accident. An the total hate that 47% of the USA has for people who worked to get better off is unbelievable.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
RonC
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November 4th, 2014 at 6:34:03 AM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

Your confusing necessary with sufficient. Baring stuff like heirs and people who win the lottery rich people have to work hard to get there. That is not sufficient though to make them rich. I don't care how hard the vast majority of people work they are unlikely to ever become anything resembling rich. Those that do become rich tended to have some sort of natural advantage that they were able to hone to make them rich whether that be athletic ability, intelligence, or good looks. Like me I will never no matter how much effort I put in become a star quarterback just don't have the body for it. More to the point though the vast majority of college football players will never turn pro even though many of them put in that 60+ hours a week.



I think you underestimate what a focused person can do. If you learn a trade or have a career, manage your money wisely, and strive to excel at what you do, you can become what most people would call "rich"...some millionaires I know don't have much more going for them than the drive to do better than the hand they were dealt.

The traps along the way? Tons of them. Excess spending on cars, vacations, gambling, entertainment, other vices (like smoking legal or illegal things), etc.

The reason most of us don't end up at a level most would consider "wealthy" is as simple as how we spend our money along the way in many more cases than you think. An example--Divorce? You lose 50% right away and your expenses change, so you may spend savings you've had for years.
AZDuffman
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November 4th, 2014 at 6:46:29 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

I think you underestimate what a focused person can do. If you learn a trade or have a career, manage your money wisely, and strive to excel at what you do, you can become what most people would call "rich"...some millionaires I know don't have much more going for them than the drive to do better than the hand they were dealt.



So correct! People think you need to do something sexy to make it big. In "The Millionaire Next Door" they blow this myth out of the water. Two of the better industries to enter if you want to be a millionaire? Pest Control and Dry Cleaning! I have been in both, trust me, it is true. Build to a few stores or several hundred regular customers as a PCO and you can make it.

The tradeoff is you work the dry cleaner store all day and on Saturday, while many people are relaxing. You are killing bugs 12+ hours per day and listening to customers complain about this or that. You sign for rent and vehicle leases that you must make good on even if the business fails. You have to deal with government regs at every turn.

Then, when you make it, you get to hear Obama say you need to "spread the wealth around," and "you didn't build that <your business>, someone else did that!" Others call you greedy and selfish.

Meanwhile, a change in clothing styles or a year with fewer bugs can wipe you out!
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
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