Thread Rating:

Poll

12 votes (32.43%)
25 votes (67.56%)

37 members have voted

Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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March 31st, 2013 at 5:56:07 PM permalink
Without giving any numbers, how are you guys doing so far this year?
Fighting BS one post at a time!
Zcore13
Zcore13
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:13:03 PM permalink
I'm up playing Poker. I was just in the process of discussing that in a new thread when I saw this post. Details will be posted in the Poker section shortly...

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Mosca
Mosca
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:16:22 PM permalink
I'm up. I've had a few really excellent sessions and one really bad one.
A falling knife has no handle.
kewlj
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:35:52 PM permalink
I am down 33 grand for the year playing blackjack. I support myself by advantage play and blackjack accounts for the majority of my results, so needless to say, 2013 has been a struggle for me, from day one, literally, as I lost 5 figures the first day of the year that I played. Several months of losing are not unusual results for me. In both 2010 and 2011, I had 6 month periods with negative results. In both years, I had pretty successful years overall. But 33 grand is the largest amount that I have gone backwards before I began to win again, just barely worse than my 32 grand number of 2011.

My 2013 results would have been more devastating just a couple years ago when blackjack accounted for 90-95% of my play. Now I play a second game at an advantage and my partner and I do quite a bit of bonus chasing. I have shown a profit of almost 14 grand with the second game that I play and my bonus chasing, thanks in large part to two $4000 royal flushes that I hit 3 days apart in early February. In addition, I am up 11 grand in sports betting this year. Sports betting is something that I do for entertainment rather than expecting to make money. It is, negative expected value for me, but I have just been very fortunate betting college basketball this year.

So bottom line is I actually feel pretty fortunate to be just under 8 grand in the red, total for the year, and am just waiting for my blackjack results to catch up to my expected value which they will at some point.
rxwine
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:51:07 PM permalink
I googled "variance", but I couldn't find any images of a wicked witch or something similar. Most were just graphs, and a couple nice looking ladies.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gs_rn=7&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=6&gs_id=m&xhr=t&q=variance&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44442042,d.eWU&biw=1600&bih=729&wrapid=tljp1364780910044010&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=c-dYUd__GIim9gTN5YHoBw
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
tringlomane
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:58:32 PM permalink
I don't gamble too much, but I have had a fairly rough 2013 so far. Definitely below expectation.
DRich
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March 31st, 2013 at 8:27:39 PM permalink
I am slightly ahead for 2013 but 2012 was terrible.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
kmumf
kmumf
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March 31st, 2013 at 9:26:27 PM permalink
First trip to vegas was busto this year. I have 2 more planned one in June and December lets hope one will be positive.
AcesAndEights
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April 10th, 2013 at 5:48:17 PM permalink
Played one session of craps and I think 4 sessions of blackjack this year. 4 losers, one winner.

Seems like 2013 has been a bitch to almost everyone on this board!
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Zcore13
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April 10th, 2013 at 5:55:00 PM permalink
That's because if you play table games or slots regularly there is almost no chance you will be ahead at the end of the year and more likely a month or two is the last time you'll see a positive total if you make it that far.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
terapined
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April 10th, 2013 at 5:55:17 PM permalink
Down but just 20 bucks. I don't hit Vegas till the end of the year. I do have Seminole Hard Rock casino here in Tampa. Love their buffet. I usually pig out then relax playing some video poker. Since crummy pay tables about 97 to 98 per cent, I limit myself to losing 20 then hit the road. Cant wait to go to Vegas later this year so I can be down some serious moolah. LOL
kewlj
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:01:38 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

That's because if you play table games or slots regularly there is almost no chance you will be ahead at the end of the year and more likely a month or two is the last time you'll see a positive total if you make it that far.

ZCore13



What are you talking about?? I play table games and video poker (no slots) and have not only had 9 straight years of positive totals, but have not worked for another person a single day during that time. There are plenty of people, a number on this site that support themselves from AP.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:06:28 PM permalink
I did not mention Video Poker because if you account for comps and other promotional advantages you can possibly come out ahead. I said table games and slots.

The Poll shows 14-5 that people are down in the first 3 months. One of those that is up is mine, but I only play poker. I promise you if you did the poll for the whole year it would end up 98-2 or something close to that.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
kewlj
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:11:40 PM permalink
I don't know the exact make-up of the membership of this site. But I do know a number of successful professional players that participate, so I am pretty sure it would not be 98-2. lol
EvenBob
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:13:08 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

That's because if you play table games or slots regularly there is almost no chance you will be ahead at the end of the year

ZCore13



A guy was telling me years ago his wife won $12K on a slot,
and I foolishly said 'time to quit when you're ahead.'

No, he said, she's going use the money to win even more
money on the slots. I foolishly pointed out that statistically
you can't get ahead and stay ahead on slots and he almost
punched me. He said he didn't know where I got my info
but I was full of s__t, and he stomped away.

That was in my wising up chumps days, I don't do that anymore.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Boz
Boz
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:17:33 PM permalink
Down slightly over the house edge in BJ YTD, but trying to make it up next week in Vegas starting Friday the 19th. Playing BJ and some lower limit Poker Tournys that have always paid me some profits. The 10AM at Flamingo seems to always be a winner for me over the week. Now if we can just get more than 12 players!

But I judge my winnings in hundreds and by no means need this to make a living.
rdw4potus
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:29:58 PM permalink
I'm up a bit, mostly because I've significantly curtailed my play. I could have been up a lot more today, but luck eluded me. Switched from DDB to Deuces Wild, then hit AAAA4 on the next hand. Figures.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:32:05 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I don't know the exact make-up of the membership of this site. But I do know a number of successful professional players that participate, so I am pretty sure it would not be 98-2. lol



I deal with gamblers every day. Hundreds a day. Thousands a year. Yes, people might say they make their living gambling. Yes, probably 80% of the people I talk to after they take a trip to Las Vegas tell me they "broke even" but at least they made enough to cover food and rooms, so it was a "free trip". I can also see the win/loss of players that claim they are ahead for the year or "even". It's NEVER true. Just because someone says something doesn't make it real.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
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April 10th, 2013 at 6:35:48 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Yes, probably 80% of the people I talk to after they take a trip to Las Vegas tell me they "broke even" but at least they made enough to cover food and rooms, so it was a "free trip".

ZCore13



I never met anybody that lost money in Vegas, they
always win a little or break even and their comps
paid for the trip. 80% is low, its more like 95%.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
kewlj
kewlj
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April 10th, 2013 at 7:12:03 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I deal with gamblers every day. Hundreds a day. Thousands a year. Yes, people might say they make their living gambling. Yes, probably 80% of the people I talk to after they take a trip to Las Vegas tell me they "broke even" but at least they made enough to cover food and rooms, so it was a "free trip". I can also see the win/loss of players that claim they are ahead for the year or "even". It's NEVER true. Just because someone says something doesn't make it real.
ZCore13



Ok, you are one of those people that wants everyone to prove their claims. That's your prerogative. I too deal with gamblers nearly every day. I play blackjack 300-320 days per year baring health issues and although I have pushed quite a bit of my video poker responsibilities off on my partner and associate, I still play through some free play most days. I also eat at least one meal every single day, usually 2 at and courtesy of a casino, so as I said, I am around the gambling public more than I would care to be. I won't argue your point that many are delusional. And I suppose this site is more representative of that gambling public than some of the AP sites that I participate on. That is quite apparent to me by the preoccupation with games that are negative EV plays. On the AP sites that I participate on, the preoccupation is with plus EV games. Most members won't even consider playing a hand, round, spin or making a single wager in a negative EV situation. A few of those same members are on this site, which is why I know your pessimistic numbers are off.

You are underestimating people. Because you can't, don't or choose not to be AP, doesn't mean it is not possible. People can have remarkable abilities. My AP abilities aren't anything special. I choose time tested methods founded in simple math, but what some of these folks can do is remarkable. I have witnessed associates playing table games and explain to me what they are doing and how it gives them an advantage and I am just lost. I know of one guy who is a machine specialist. And I am not talking about a plus EV video poker machine. He can and does make a living playing negative EV slot machines. He has knowledge of these machines that only the manufacturer has, maybe even that the manufacturer doesn't have. He buys machines, takes them apart and finds all kinds of vulnerabilities. When I first heard of him and even later when I began speaking with him, I was sure there was no way. But there is. I know people, credible people, that have known him for years and vouch for him.

Now I am not suggestion there are a ton of people like this running around, there aren't. They are the exception. But there are plenty of players, both on a professional level and recreactional level alike, who's only gambling addiction is being addicted to playing a winning game, a positive EV game. They too are the exception, but you can be damn sure they are there. You can be damn sure of it because of the casino industries reaction, over-reaction and paranoia of these players.
Zcore13
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April 10th, 2013 at 7:40:02 PM permalink
So what percent of gamblers do you think do this professionally and for a profit? I said 98-2. That's 2% that might be making money. I think I'm way high on that. I would say there are:

Less than 100 people in the WORLD that can play Blackjack full time for a profit
Less than 20 people in the WORLD that can play Craps full time for a profit
Less than 5 people in the WORLD that can play Roulette full time for a profit

My guess is that a fraction of 1% of people that play regularly do it profitably and many (not all) that tell you they do, do not.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
rdw4potus
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April 10th, 2013 at 7:48:47 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

So what percent of gamblers do you think do this professionally and for a profit? I said 98-2. That's 2% that might be making money. I think I'm way high on that. I would say there are:

Less than 100 people in the WORLD that can play Blackjack full time for a profit
Less than 20 people in the WORLD that can play Craps full time for a profit
Less than 5 people in the WORLD that can play Roulette full time for a profit

My guess is that a fraction of 1% of people that play regularly do it profitably and many (not all) that tell you they do, do not.

ZCore13



You're probably right about the Craps number. Maybe Roulette, too, depending on how much info about the European wheel tracking BS is true. But counting at BJ just isn't THAT hard. I would bet that there's 100 people in New Jersey who play for a profit. I guess we could quibble about what "professionally" means.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
tringlomane
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April 10th, 2013 at 9:27:32 PM permalink
Yeah that number on blackjack is probably quite off. Also I don't think this forum would be 98-2 in the hole by the end of the year. If you sampled all CET diamond members instead, the 98-2 ratio would be closer to true.
Beethoven9th
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April 10th, 2013 at 9:31:21 PM permalink
I think he was claimin
Fighting BS one post at a time!
kewlj
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April 10th, 2013 at 10:12:41 PM permalink
Ok, hold on a minute. Somehow this statement has evolved into what percentage of gamblers are professional AP's. That number is immensely low. Far less than 1%. But that's not really what the initial comment was about. The quote was that 98% of the membership would lose money over a year as opposed to the 3 months that the current poll reflects. Here is why I believe that number is way off.

First of all, if you took results where everyone involved was playing negative expectation, there would still be winners over a period of a year. That's just the way it works. Negative expectation doesn't mean that every single person loses. It means over the long run everyone will lose. A years results do not necessarily fall into the long run category. I know people who are playing with an advantage, as much as 1-1 & 1/2 percent advantage that have endured year long losing periods. So likewise a few people playing at a small disadvantage would buck the trend and win over a less than long-term period, like a year. Especially when there are games with large payouts involved. I mean, if someone hits some big jackpot, that alone will be enough to put them in the black for the year regardless of what happens the rest of the year.

So there would be a few people playing a losing game that were still in the black. Now add to that a few AP's and you are well over the 2 % that was initially stated. Now while there aren't but a fraction of a percent of AP's in the general population, I believe just from those that I know, that it is significantly higher than that on this site. I earlier stated the number of AP's participating on this site wasn't near what it is on sites devoted entirely to AP play, but it is still much higher than the general gambling population. Certainly enough to push the number of people in the black after a year well above 2%.
Zcore13
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April 10th, 2013 at 10:31:57 PM permalink
To make it clear, here is what I'm saying:

Maybe 2% of the people on this site would be a winner after 1 year of regular play. I say that because people on this site are probably better educated and a higher level of gambler than the general public.

Way, way less than 2% of regular gamblers win after a year of play. I know first hand this is true and have every statistic you can think of to prove this point. It's part of my job.

A year of regular play IS the long run. Almost nobody wins, trust me.

You are believing too many stories if you think otherwise. The people you think have a 1 - 1 1/2 percent advantage over the house and aren't winning over a year long period of regular play most likely don't have the advantage they think they do. They are either mis-reading hole cards, mis-counting AP blackjack or something else of that nature. I year of regular play is a HUGE sample size. In most cases, it is the long run.

And just a normal non AP player that plays regularly 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. 90 hands an hour since most regulars that try and win money that I've known don't play at full tables. That's 93,600 hands. At just a $5 bet with just a 1/2 percent advantage that's an expected loss of $23,400. And that's with only an average $5 bet. And that's the best table game in the house. It just doesn't happen that people win. I swear to you that I'm not lying. It does not happen.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Beethoven9th
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April 10th, 2013 at 11:00:44 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

The quote was that 98% of the membership would lose money over a year as opposed to the 3 months that the current poll reflects.

Fighting BS one post at a time!
OzzyOsbourne
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April 10th, 2013 at 11:04:08 PM permalink
I usually spread 10-125 when i play shoes (or more accurately two hands of 125) and 25-200 in DD. I'm up 2000 this year at blackjack, after losing 1600 my last session in one shoe at a 10 dollar table. It was an absolute nightmare and the first time in 350~ hours of blackjack play i have seen the running count get to 30. the highest I can ever remember previously seeing was 27 in another shoe which I also got crushed on.

Anyway not even one deck had been played and the RC was 12. I start betting 25. a lady comes and plays so i start playing two hands of 50. count was at 18 with 4.5 decks left. I keep losing and the count keeps climbing. Lady also keeps losing and finally leaves at a running count of 25 with about 3.5 decks left. i keep buying in for 2 or 300 bucks at a time. You can tell the dealer feels so bad and so does the pit boss. When i started betting two hands of 100 he whispers checks play. At one point the pit boss comes over and is genuinely rooting for me to win. dealer has a 4 up. At this point im betting two hands of 200. on one hand I had doubled on a soft something and gotten a 10 for no help and the other stiff i stayed. the dealer has a 7 under (for 11) and I just yell NO!!! he pulls a 4 for 15 then another 4 for 19, not only to beat both hands and put a 1200 swing the casinos way, but that last 4 made the running count 30. the pit boss honestly seemed upset that this happened and never came back to my table til i left. on the final hand i had two 250 bets and two shitty hands and took insurance, which thankfully the dealer had it. other than that session this year has been great! :)
casino's money disappears the execs worry when the wizard is near He turns tears into joy Everyone's happy when the wizard walks by
thecesspit
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April 10th, 2013 at 11:12:29 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

To make it clear, here is what I'm saying:

Maybe 2% of the people on this site would be a winner after 1 year of regular play. I say that because people on this site are probably better educated and a higher level of gambler than the general public.

Way, way less than 2% of regular gamblers win after a year of play. I know first hand this is true and have every statistic you can think of to prove this point. It's part of my job.

A year of regular play IS the long run. Almost nobody wins, trust me.

You are believing too many stories if you think otherwise. The people you think have a 1 - 1 1/2 percent advantage over the house and aren't winning over a year long period of regular play most likely don't have the advantage they think they do. They are either mis-reading hole cards, mis-counting AP blackjack or something else of that nature. I year of regular play is a HUGE sample size. In most cases, it is the long run.

And just a normal non AP player that plays regularly 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. 90 hands an hour since most regulars that try and win money that I've known don't play at full tables. That's 93,600 hands. At just a $5 bet with just a 1/2 percent advantage that's an expected loss of $23,400. And that's with only an average $5 bet. And that's the best table game in the house. It just doesn't happen that people win. I swear to you that I'm not lying. It does not happen.

ZCore13



Expected loss of 93,600 hands at $5 per hand and -0.5% EV is not 23,400. It's $2,340. Given a standard deviation of 1.0 (Blackjack is higher than that, but can't be bothered to find it right now), 2 stand devaitions is:

+$720 to - $5,399.

I'd expect over 2% of people to be in profit based on chance alone. Flip those numbers for a positive EV (which an AP would have).

With craps and a decent amount of odds, a lot more people would be net winners after a years worth of intensive play.

Most people aren't putting in 20 hours per week.

Winners happen.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
thecesspit
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April 10th, 2013 at 11:22:05 PM permalink
I've made 6 bets this year, and won 4 of them, including a good (as percentage of bankroll) win on the superbowl. I doubt I'll bet much this year.

I've never left Vegas up.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
kewlj
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April 10th, 2013 at 11:41:22 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

Ah, then I stand corrected. I'll keep my mouth shut from now on before I make another mistake. (haha) :)



Relax, Beethoven. I'm not blaming you or anyone. Just saying the meaning of what was actually said has somehow 'evolved' a bit. lol Don't keep your mouth shut. Participate. Make mistakes. That's life. :)

Quote: Zcore13

To make it clear, here is what I'm saying:

A year of regular play IS the long run. Almost nobody wins, trust me.

You are believing too many stories if you think otherwise. I year of regular play is a HUGE sample size. In most cases, it is the long run.

And just a normal non AP player that plays regularly 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. 90 hands an hour since most regulars that try and win money that I've known don't play at full tables. That's 93,600 hands. At just a $5 bet with just a 1/2 percent advantage that's an expected loss of $23,400. And that's with only an average $5 bet. And that's the best table game in the house. It just doesn't happen that people win. I swear to you that I'm not lying. It does not happen.

ZCore13



Ok, again, just to clarify a few things. A year is NOT necessarily the long run and in most cases is not that huge of a sample size. I am not going to use your exact example because there are some problems with that, mainly the 93 thousand hands which I will get to in a moment, but let's just say someones expected loss was $23,400. Depending on circumstances, normal standard deviation is likely to be large enough that it covers an area that swings into positive territory as well as much further negative. That would mean that although the expected loss would be $23,400, any results ranging in this standard deviation range or even two standard deviations are not only possible, but would be considered 'normal'. So a winning year based on expected loss of 23 grand would not be as rare as you are making it out to be.

Now, 93,000 rounds of blackjack. Most professional player that I know, play far fewer than that. Most higher stakes players play only a couple days a month. Players that play lower, mid level stakes are called grinders because they play a lot and grind out a slim advantage and few grinders play anywhere near this amount. I myself have averaged 75-80 thousand rounds over the last 2 years and frankly I don't know anyone that plays as much as me. Most of my fellow AP's think I am foolish for playing so much. And this idea of 90 rounds an hour, 4 hours a day, 5 days a week.....ludicrous. Doesn't work that way. Casino industry paranoia forces short session with lots of travel and down time, not to mention scouting time.

Now, you work for a casino and compile stats and keep track of players wins and losses. As all I can say about that is based on my own win-loss statements from different casinos, you guys aren't doing such a good job. I keep extremely detailed records of my play, right down to the penny and what I am winning and what the casino has me down as usually losing, are miles apart. lol

Now, I am not going to continue to argue this with you. Think whatever you like. But I do have a question. If you are so convinced that NOBODY wins, then why the hell don't you guys lighten up and stop the backoffs, bet restrictions and shallow penetration and CSM. NOBODY is winning, so let us play. lol
Zcore13
Zcore13
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:07:41 AM permalink
Nobody has been backed off in my Casino. The worst I can see happening is requiring a flat bet. We currently cut about 1 1/2 decks off and I'd love to take it down to 1 or even 3/4. We do not have a CSM and don't plan on getting one. We do have a maximum bet of $500, but that's a requirement by the State, not me. You are welcome at my place any time.

I can imagine some places having a hard time keeping track of win/loss. We don't have that problem. We are small enough to keep pretty good tabs. I actually used to enjoy players that would rat hole chips. It gave me a challenge during my shift. I also enjoyed watching players that thought they could count and could win.

I'm really not going to worry about and change the experience for 99.9 percent of my players for the 0.1 percent that may get a tiny advantage over me.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
kewlj
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:17:56 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Nobody has been backed off in my Casino. The worst I can see happening is requiring a flat bet. We currently cut about 1 1/2 decks off and I'd love to take it down to 1 or even 3/4. We do not have a CSM and don't plan on getting one. We do have a maximum bet of $500, but that's a requirement by the State, not me. You are welcome at my place any time.

I can imagine some places having a hard time keeping track of win/loss. We don't have that problem. We are small enough to keep pretty good tabs. I actually used to enjoy players that would rat hole chips. It gave me a challenge during my shift. I also enjoyed watching players that thought they could count and could win.

I'm really not going to worry about and change the experience for 99.9 percent of my players for the 0.1 percent that may get a tiny advantage over me.

ZCore13



Well I applaud your attitude, ZCore. More of the industry should think along these lines. Zender first laid it out years ago, but few in the industry have paid any attention.

These numbers that you just posted, are much more realistic and fall in line with what I have been saying. They also contradict your earlier position that nobody ever wins. lol But that's ok, I am glad we are making progress with you. :)
Zcore13
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:24:10 AM permalink
Nobody wins over a full year with regular play.

Now, if you told me traveled around pouncing on promotions or that you specialized in counting side bets, that's a different story. That you could win at. But again, I think the number of people that do that successfully is so small it's barely worth discussing. If I were going to try AP play full time that's all I would focus on.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
odiousgambit
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:50:52 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Nobody wins over a full year with regular play.



Now your boy is back-sliding! [g]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Beethoven9th
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:54:35 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Relax, Beethoven. I'm not blaming you or anyone. Just saying the meaning of what was actually said has somehow 'evolved' a bit. lol Don't keep your mouth shut. Participate. Make mistakes. That's life. :)

Fighting BS one post at a time!
Jimbo
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April 11th, 2013 at 2:39:07 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I can imagine some places having a hard time keeping track of win/loss. We don't have that problem. We are small enough to keep pretty good tabs. I actually used to enjoy players that would rat hole chips. It gave me a challenge during my shift.


Quote: kewlj

Now, you work for a casino and compile stats and keep track of players wins and losses. As all I can say about that is based on my own win-loss statements from different casinos, you guys aren't doing such a good job.


My experience is that some casinos do an excellent job of maintaining accurate win/loss statements and other casinos are way off.

I keep meticulous records of my play. Twelve years ago, I played one year at one particular casino that included many, many hours of higher stakes craps play (average bet in excess of $200). I was there numerous weekends for at least 2 days each and sometimes for 3-4 days at a time. I played other times during the weekday. On occasion, I saved chips from one trip to another. I would buy in with cash and/or use existing chips. My wife cashed some of my chips at times--under $3,000 and using black chips so she did not show an ID. I thought there is no way the casino could accurately track this. But at the end of the year, the casino was off by only $100.

I had a discussion with the the table games supervisor and my host at the time about this, and I learned a good deal about just how closely they followed my play. I have also observed what goes on at the craps and blackjack tables on buy-ins and color-ups--at least with my own play.

Even at a crowded craps table, if you are the only person who is using black chips (or even if there are 2-3 other players), then it should not be difficult to track the play even if you are inclined to rat-hole some of the chips. And if you using purple ($500) chips, then it is even easier for the casino to know what you have at all times. At the craps table, they are checking my chips in the rack regularly as the boxman checks his bank and entering the information in my record.

Regardless, I have received win/loss statements at other times from other casinos and I wonder where did they get the numbers, since they aren't even close to being correct.

I wonder what is the purpose of rat-holing chips anyway. Most people do not declare their gaming activities for tax purposes, so it can't be for the avoidance of taxes. A part of one's comps can be based on losses (separate from the Theo), and I suppose there may be something to be gained in greater comps if you can fool the casino into believing that your losses are more than they actually are.
teddys
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April 11th, 2013 at 7:11:11 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

That's because if you play table games or slots regularly there is almost no chance you will be ahead at the end of the year and more likely a month or two is the last time you'll see a positive total if you make it that far.

ZCore13

LOL! You know that is absolutely not true. You more than anyone should understand that's a function of E.V. -- playing a long term winning game you are more likely to be up at the end of the year than down. Almost everyone here realizes that -- that's why they are here. And those of us who play low E.V. games will have a better chance to be up at the end of the year than down, including extras and such.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
TIMSPEED
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April 11th, 2013 at 7:35:30 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I'm really not going to worry about and change the experience for 99.9 percent of my players for the 0.1 percent that may get a tiny advantage over me.
ZCore13


Wow, really? I'll jump in the car right now and bring $100k with me...hope your bank account can handle it...since I'll playing against you
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
Zcore13
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April 11th, 2013 at 7:48:02 AM permalink
Quote: TIMSPEED

Quote: Zcore13

I'm really not going to worry about and change the experience for 99.9 percent of my players for the 0.1 percent that may get a tiny advantage over me.
ZCore13


Wow, really? I'll jump in the car right now and bring $100k with me...hope your bank account can handle it...since I'll playing against you
u



Brilliant comment. If you've been following the thread "me" is the Casino that pays me to provide gaming to people like "you" the customer. So if you think the $100,000 cash hat you don't really have is enough to take down "my" house, drop on by.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
1BB
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April 11th, 2013 at 7:54:44 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

That's because if you play table games or slots regularly there is almost no chance you will be ahead at the end of the year and more likely a month or two is the last time you'll see a positive total if you make it that far.

ZCore13



I'll comment on blackjack. True APs don't talk about their winnings to casual acquaintances and true APs don't allow the casino to get an accurate picture of their winnings. There are different methods to accomplish this and they are very good at it. I believe that you see very few winners because you're not supposed to see them.

With one week of extremely good variance at blackjack I am ahead 2.5 base bets for each hour played in 2013 and am looking forward to another successful year. I've already passed 100 hours.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
AcesAndEights
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April 11th, 2013 at 8:22:09 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

And just a normal non AP player that plays regularly 4 hours a day, 5 days a week. 90 hands an hour since most regulars that try and win money that I've known don't play at full tables. That's 93,600 hands. At just a $5 bet with just a 1/2 percent advantage that's an expected loss of $23,400. And that's with only an average $5 bet. And that's the best table game in the house. It just doesn't happen that people win. I swear to you that I'm not lying. It does not happen.


Who the hell kind of non-AP player is playing 4 hours a day, 5 days a week?!? That's an insane amount of gambling for anyone. As kewlj said, most good APs don't play that much because they have better opportunities. I guess a retired millionaire who loves the casino might, or a 9-5 guy with no family who goes to the casino every night.

Anyway, 93600 * $5 * .005 = $2340 as someone else has already mentioned. $23400 would be accurate for roulette :)

Quote: Jimbo

I wonder what is the purpose of rat-holing chips anyway. Most people do not declare their gaming activities for tax purposes, so it can't be for the avoidance of taxes. A part of one's comps can be based on losses (separate from the Theo), and I suppose there may be something to be gained in greater comps if you can fool the casino into believing that your losses are more than they actually are.


APs do it because they don't want the casino to know they are winning. One factor that can contribute to a backoff is lifetime win, so best to keep it low or negative from their perspective if you can.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
slyther
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April 11th, 2013 at 9:14:39 AM permalink
up a few bucks on a cash in a home game NL Hold "Em tournament which offset a couple casino tournament non-cashes.
kewlj
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April 11th, 2013 at 9:16:27 AM permalink
One cautionary word about ratholing. Many that attempt to rathole do so in over-excess. You don't need to rathole away hundreds of dollars of a big win. You only need to rathole away a little more than your EV amount. If your longterm expected win is $40 an hour, rathole 2 greens, win or lose. You should limit ratholing to green chips because black chips are tracked more closely. It was told to me, by a pit boss acquaintance that if your are seen or even suspected of ratholing, they will make a notation on your account stating that you are known to take chips off the table. At that point any time you play, if there are chips 'missing' that they can't account for, they will 'assign' them to you. So when some player jumps up and walks away with some green chips, you will end up being credited with a bigger win (or smaller loss) than you actually incurred. So the purpose of ratholing is not only negated, but is now working 100% against you.
Zcore13
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April 11th, 2013 at 9:39:53 AM permalink
Another thing about ratholing... in general it doesn't do anything except make the person that's rating you and assigning your comp value dislike you. A good Supervisor knows how much in chips was in the tray when you started and how much is there when you are done. It doesn't matter one bit how much you color up at the end. Missing chips are missing chips. Most likely others at the table are not ratholing, so missing chips are easy to figure out. And for that bit of extra work (and attempted deceit) you end up getting rated lower and losing comps.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
EvenBob
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April 11th, 2013 at 12:24:31 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

One cautionary word about ratholing. .



In roulette, almost everybody, even women, take
black chips and put them in their pocket after a win.
Its standard procedure, green chips too. You don't
want somebody stealing them. Its because you bet
with roulette chips, hardly anybody bets the inside
with casino chips over $5, so the greens and blacks
just sit there and they're better off in your pocket.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
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April 11th, 2013 at 1:00:25 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Jimbo
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April 11th, 2013 at 1:11:36 PM permalink
I appreciate the responses about ratholing--both from the AP perspective as well as the point of view of the pit supervisor.

I had not considered the desire of the AP to mask his winnings. Makes sense.

I also did not realize that some pit supervisors get a little bent out of shape over ratholing.

When I color up at the craps table, I do not send in the odd chips that will be returned to me. For example, if I have $3,800 in green and black chips (and I always know what I have in my rack before I color up), I keep $300 of the black chips and color up $3,500 only. But then I let the pit supervisor or boxman know as I leave the table that I have 3 black in my pocket. First off, I am typically the only one playing with black chips, so there is no point in hiding it. (And even if there were others, the pit knows.) Secondly, and more importantly, I often play where they know me well and the pit and box appreciate my being up front with them. Having a good relationship with casino management pays dividends in many ways.
Zcore13
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April 11th, 2013 at 1:26:08 PM permalink
Quote: Jimbo

I appreciate the responses about ratholing--both from the AP perspective as well as the point of view of the pit supervisor.

I had not considered the desire of the AP to mask his winnings. Makes sense.

I also did not realize that some pit supervisors get a little bent out of shape over ratholing.

When I color up at the craps table, I do not send in the odd chips that will be returned to me. For example, if I have $3,800 in green and black chips (and I always know what I have in my rack before I color up), I keep $300 of the black chips and color up $3,500 only. But then I let the pit supervisor or boxman know as I leave the table that I have 3 black in my pocket. First off, I am typically the only one playing with black chips, so there is no point in hiding it. (And even if there were others, the pit knows.) Secondly, and more importantly, I often play where they know me well and the pit and box appreciate my being up front with them. Having a good relationship with casino management pays dividends in many ways.



You are the type of player that would get additional comps at many places if you ran out. It's kind of the same as when a police officer stops you. A lot of times if you're cool with him/her you get nicer treatment. If you are a jackass, you're not going to get any breaks. It's no different when gambling.

One time I was playing Pai Gow at The Avi in Laughlin. At around 2am the Pit Boss approached me and said "This is going to be the last shoe. We are painting the ceiling above you and we have to close the table." Now I could have been a jerk about it and complained, but instead I joked about it saving me money anyway and that I'm sure the game would be here when I wake up. The Supervisor thanked me and then at the end of the shoe came back with a food comp for 4. I was pretty pleased with that. Even better when I checked my comps on my card after waking up, she must have rated my average bet at about $75 or $100 a hand instead of $25 or $30 because my comps went through the roof.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
debitncredit
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April 11th, 2013 at 1:51:50 PM permalink
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