The wheel has a physical flaw ...

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The wheel has a physical flaw ...

I know physics and i discovered a flaw that almost every existing wheel has as we know them.
Any one can with eye sight and notepad tell in witch area the ball will end up before it does just that.

No need to use any kind of device or advance calculation.
It is like the wheel unfold it self and show us where the ball will end up.

Some basic skills are needed do.
Understand different degrees of tilt/bias and know the numbers order on the number ring.
Thats all and the rest is easy ...

Einstein was not so clever when he state that you have to steal from the dealer.
Pretty stupid statement.

I could show or teach any one to drastically reduce the house edge and even make it vanish.

haha, I can already see where this thread is going.

I'll just sit back and read all the great comments coming.

Is this gonna cost me 19.95?

Quote: AverageJOE

I could show or teach any one to drastically reduce the house edge and even make it vanish.

Do tell.

Some one tell me the odds of ewjones and myself posting at exactly the same time.

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It just feels great being clever and see the light in the end of tunnel - LOL

All this years being into high advance visual ballistics - physics - to finally discover it was not necessary.
One simple observation and some notes does the same thing - with out knowing the particular rotor speed or strenght of the ball at certain moment.

I call it a flaw as rotor should shift from trail to trail being different or random distributed.
Same function with the launching of ball.

I am saying that as they should not calibrate, manifest and unfold the future witch i know.
That is the riddle ...
Knowing it witch area the ball will end up.

With this kind of ability I presume you will be headed to vegas with a pocket full of cash, so I wish you good luck.

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No need i have mini Las Vegas with boat trip from where i am + my local international casino.
The edge manifest.

I am from Europa.
It is about time for casinos or wheel manufactures to start to change the game - but in the mean time i will grind out regular wins.

Well if the dealer does not start to put a finger into the rotor near to the end of the spin or that they add a random motor below the rotor - i will do just fine.

LOL :-)

The problem with having discovered a physical flaw in a Roulette wheel is that no casino will allow you to exploit it significantly.

Since you're into bias play, you're probably familiar with Dr. Alan Wilson and his excellent book on the subject ("The Casino Gambler's Guide"). He talks about having assembled a team that discovered and exploited a genuinely biased wheel at Harold's Club in Reno back in the 1950s. (One of the dividers between two pockets on the wheel had been replaced with a slightly taller divider from a different wheel, causing several pockets on the wheel to become very hot and others to become very cold, as the ball was much more likely to stop when it hit the taller divider.)

The Wilson team was allowed to play that wheel exploiting the bias for as long as they were only because they (very wisely, I think) attached the highest high roller who played at Harold's Club to their crew, but having done that only bought them a little more time -- the owner of the casino ended up stopping play in mid-spin and switching the wheel out with the biggest whale he'd ever netted sitting at the table.

That was back in the 1950s when casinos weren't doing the sort of bias-checking that they do today (although Wilson did mention a primitive computer being used at one establishment to monitor whether certain numbers were too hot even that early). So I'd think that, if things have changed at all in that regard, they have become even more difficult for anyone wanting to make serious money at AP Roulette. Wilson and his team did everything right, from things that I might have thought of (trying to appear to be system players) to things that I wouldn't have thought to do (like attaching the high roller, known as such to management, to their crew) and still got backed off and had the wheel replaced before they do any real damage.

With all of that said, I have heard that bias play is easier to get away with in Argentina. I have no idea if this is true or not. I have asked about it on here several times when the subject of Argentine casinos has come up, but haven't gotten any response. But I have heard some (quite possibly apocryphal) stories about people making serious money down there.

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I understand what you are saying and i would not say it is nonsense.
Your story is not so impressive as i know how bias teams of today operate.

But you misunderstanding my teaser witch is a long term wheel signature based upon physical parameters.

I know two members at this forum that would understand the topic and that it is valid.
Will not mention any names.

I could elaborate about bias and tell you that i have the formula that distinct what is due towards random fluctuation or being a valid bias - could even elaborate about defect spotting - but it is to sensitive and private knowledge to be discussed at a public forum like this one.

Quote: AverageJOE

-but it is to sensitive and private knowledge to be discussed at a public forum like this one.

oh good, so you are done talking about it?

Quote: AverageJOE

I understand what you are saying and i would not say it is nonsense.
Your story is not so impressive as i know how bias teams of today operate.

But you misunderstanding my teaser witch is a long term wheel signature based upon physical parameters.

I understand that you are not talking about something as obvious and unique as the flaw exploited by the Wilson team. You did say that you were working based upon observation of a physical flaw, however. I just used the Wilson story as an easily digestible example of the fact that, even where wheels are indisputably biased, casinos will not allow you to win too much at them.

One is inclined to wonder how you've detected a flaw that the casinos' bias-monitoring software has not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I always do with AP Roulette players because I keep secretly hoping that one of them has finally done it.

So I'm not questioning that you might have a completely valid methodology worked out, nor did I in any way intend to suggest that I was. But I am saying that even if they can't tell what you're doing, a casino will back you off just for getting "too lucky". I've had it happen at Sic bo, of all games. I have not seen anyone more recently than Wilson come up with a reasonable workaround for that (and his only bought him a little more time at the table).

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Quote = oh good, so you are done talking about it?

I am not done talking about it - the flaw - but i did not discus bias wheels - that was just assumption from another member.
See how easy it is to come to different conclusion depending of knowledge about the subject.

Bias can be many things other then that some numbers hit more frequent then what they should do for unknown reasons.
Could be a due towards a defect wheel.

Bias can also be that if you take 1000 to 2000 trails collecting the dealers release of the ball - you might find a 3 std from same release number.
Bias can be that 3 vertical deflectors hit 789 times out of 10.

There are many other physical parameters that can have a bias then numbers.
Cause and effect is the riddle ...

You said,

Quote: AverageJOE

The wheel has a physical flaw ...

I know physics and i discovered a flaw that almost every existing wheel has as we know them.

That is the very definition of a biased wheel, and exploiting this would be the very definition of bias play. The only thing different that you are saying is that (1) most wheels have this bias, and (2) because you discovered it, you are able to exploit it.

Quote: AverageJOE

I know two members at this forum that would understand the topic and that it is valid.
Will not mention any names..

If you open your mouth, talk. If you begin saying something, finish it, or don't begin. If you just stand there with your mouth open, you look like... well, like someone standing there with their mouth open.

Quote: P90

If you open your mouth, talk. If you begin saying something, finish it, or don't begin. If you just stand there with your mouth open, you look like... well, like someone standing there with their mouth open.

Well i find your statement naive
Personally i start how many topics i want - to tell there "exist" other solutions with out telling or write down the blue print to success - give it away on a silver plate.

I came here wanting to support the AP Roulette player and to politely point out the non-mathematical problem associated with AP Roulette that I've never seen anyone more recently than Dr. Wilson make an attempt to address. But, damn it, now I find myself hissing,

Some dogs are named Talmadge.

Quote: AverageJOE

Personally i start how many topics i want

It shows, 18 threads with just 84 posts.

Quote: AverageJOE

- to tell there "exist" other solutions with out telling or write down the blue print to success - give it away on a silver plate.

There is a difference between (1) providing useful and interesting information while withholding data that can not be harmlessly disclosed and (2) triumphantly implying you know something others don't while saying things everyone already knows.

I wouldn't make this post in the case of (1).

Quote: P90

It shows, 18 threads with just 84 posts.


There is a difference between (1) providing useful and interesting information while withholding data that can not be harmlessly disclosed and (2) triumphantly implying you know something others don't while saying things everyone already knows.

I wouldn't make this post in the case of (1).

Well i discovered one thing that i personally did not could imagine could exist as solution.
I write about it - so what - it might trigger people to take a look into physics instead of using useless systems.

It just feels good after spending 6K on material and one wheel to finally or literately be able to walk in to any existing casino - scout for conditions, collect data and play with positive expectation.

Quote: AverageJOE

scout for conditions, collect data and play with positive expectation.

Uh Huh. Then why are you trolling on a public
forum instead of being in the casino doing it?

There are entire message boards on the net
devoted to visual ballistic play. This is old
stuff, and its not as easy as you try and make it.

What do you hope to gain here, do you want
students to pay you for all this magical knowledge?
VB works on some wheels some of the time. It
won't make you rich, far from it.

Quote: rainman

Some one tell me the odds of ewjones and myself posting at exactly the same time.

HOLY SHIT THAT'S AMAZING!! Down to the SECOND??

Totally weird. I bet we could get a rough estimate, but would need Wizard to let us know the average time it takes for the first two replies of a new thread.

And what's more, it took me several minutes to write the post, since I was trying to come up with something really clever. I don't think I succeeded, haha.

I hope it wasn't a glitch, cause that's really cool.

Quote: EvenBob

Uh Huh. Then why are you trolling on a public
forum instead of being in the casino doing it?

There are entire message boards on the net
devoted to visual ballistic play. This is old
stuff, and its not as easy as you try and make it.

What do you hope to gain here, do you want
students to pay you for all this magical knowledge?
VB works on some wheels some of the time. It
won't make you rich, far from it.

Yes i spend time at casinos and with family - live ordinary life.
It is so ridiculous where you going at.

Just because you have the edge over the bank - people think you will become millionaire or play non stop.
Is just illusions and is not realistic.
How many times don't we read about people who believe they will solve there depths or bills playing roulette or even dream about living independent life style - nothing of does things i mention has anything to do with roulette.
Just ridiculous.

Based upon your lack of knowledge and understanding so do i understand you point of view.
If you read the topic from the beginning and see what i mention - then you would understand there exist solution witch make things more easy then traditional visual ballistic solution.

It is rare to meet some one who has insight.

So what is the point posting - well people should know there is no other solution then physics when playing the game.

Why is it that every Roulette AP gambler I come across wears a tin-foil hat?

I just love the game of Roulette, drinking all the adult beverages I can guzzle down, and watching clown after clown come up to the table and refuse to leave until they have lost every dollar they throw down. The ones who "really know what they are doing" are the most fun to watch.

Well that's what makes Roulette so much fun - the funny gamblers who make me chuckle...........

Quote: AverageJOE

That is the riddle ...
Knowing it witch area the ball will end up.

How do I get to know this witch? Do you have to bring the witch to the casino with you or does she write the numbers and times in blood on a piece of unicorn hide? Do casinos allow broomsticks to be carried by non-employees? I know that Harrah's is pet friendly but are black cats included in that policy? What about other familiars? Can a witch bring a pet owl?

Witch spelling error ... :-)

Quote: AverageJOE
I know two members at this forum that would understand the topic and that it is valid.
Will not mention any names..


Well, see now, you got Ken suspended. So now you only have one member that understands.

And if he stops taking his meds, you will have none !

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We don't know what we don't know

There are known knowns: there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns: that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns - the ones we don't know we don't know.

To all Roulette AP folks:

I keep hearing about AP and I can understand it for Blackjack - it's card counting.

But when it comes to Roulette I just don't get AP. I guess you folks are talking about out of alignment Roulette wheels - right?

OK, let's say that the $3,500+ wheel came lopsided from the manufacturer and the casino puts it in use. Now what? Do you stand by and take notes for days/weeks and find where to bet to beat the casino? The dealer is constantly switched out and the wheel is constantly slowing down - how do you make any sense out of this?

What does the casino do in the mean time? Revenue drops at the table and do they just ignore the problem?

I just don't see how AP applies to Roulette in the real world - in a laboratory I can understand but in the real world?

I've just assumed that Roulette AP is an inside joke for newbies, just like a "Smoke Turner" is for campers - experienced folks get a belly laugh at the tenderfoot.....

Quote: MauiSunset

I've just assumed that Roulette AP is an inside joke for newbies, just like a "Smoke Turner" is for campers - experienced folks get a belly laugh at the tenderfoot.....

Roulette AP is like carnival game AP; you're mostly waiting around for the dealer to flash. Some dealers flash more often than others and some do it more obviously than others. But it all comes down to trying to see what number the dealer is planning to spin before the ball is dropped.

If you can catch what number the dealer is going to spin before the ball gets dropped, you can (if you're quick) get a stack of chips on that single number bet, giving yourself a positive EV on the bet with a player edge of 100%.

Like Chess, Roulette is an abstract strategy game where the player has imperfect knowledge (the most important rule of Chess is to never allow your opponent to see your pieces). Except instead of being played between two players with imperfect knowledge (like in darts), in this case only the player has imperfect knowledge, while the dealer enjoys perfect knowledge, being able to see the bets on the table and knowing which pocket the ball will end up in. So, reducing the game to a Bernoulli trial should be a simple matter of getting the dealer to reveal where the ball will go before No More Bets is called.

The AP Roulette player has several options in this department. There is the popular truth serum sodium pentathol, which could be surreptitiously introduced into the dealer's bloodstream shortly before inquiring as to which numbers will come up next. Unfortunately, sodium pentathol is somewhat less reliable than it may have appeared in older movies and TV shows, so the smart AP Roulette player may elect to induce a different lubricating agent. Some dealers have been known to be fairly receptive to various liquors, such as tequila, which, although they may cause the dealer to reveal the ball's intended destination, and other interesting pieces of information such as the nature of the House Shuffle and House Spin (for Roulette) and House Button Press (for Sic bo), the dealer may also being crying about their lousy childhood, slowing down play.

So what is the AP Roulette player to do? A number of options remain. Another member of this board suggested waiting until just after the dealer drops the ball, pointing over the dealer's shoulder, yelling "Look out behind you", and then moving the ball to the player's pocket of choice. While this may seem extremely tempting to the AP Roulette player, the problem remains that the history display will show the numbers predetermined by the dealers rather than the number of the pocket to which the ball had been moved. A possible workaround here would be to choose a Roulette table featuring a digital display, rather than the standard LED variety, and simply changing the channel at the commencement of play.

Like Baccarat, a monkey can play a significant role in AP Roulette. You yell, "Monkey! Monkey!" like in Baccarat, except that you actually have a monkey moving the ball while you're doing it. (In Baccarat, the monkey counts the cards.)

Like players, dealers often find themselves tempted to fall into Martingale progressions, which can be something for the AP Roulette player to monitor for. So, if a dealer spins 4, and then 8, and then 16, and the players keep winning, they will more than likely next be spinning 32.

Anyhow, those are just a few examples of how AP Roulette works. I think. The AP Roulette experts tend to be pretty tight-lipped about their methodologies. Again, I keep secretly hoping that one of them will eventually pull it off, but I've seen no indication of it having been successful in decades. But they might just be keeping it to themselves, of course. I sure would.

" but I've seen no indication of it having been successful in decades. "

And you think just a mere 20 or 30 years is an indication that Roulette AP's may not be on the verge of success ?

I mean where is ken when i need a voice of reason ?

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Sleeping on the job ...

An advantage player and a casino employee are both doing their job at the same time, in the same place. Only one of them is doing their job well, because they cannot co-exist.

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Sleeping on the job ... But only one is dreaming of winning. And his winnings only exist in dreamland. LOL

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What a silly thing to say and who can take you seriously.

You want to be me? feel how its like to have positive expectation!

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Quote: heather

Roulette AP is like carnival game AP; you're mostly waiting around for the dealer to flash. Some dealers flash more often than others and some do it more obviously than others. But it all comes down to trying to see what number the dealer is planning to spin before the ball is dropped.

If you can catch what number the dealer is going to spin before the ball gets dropped, you can (if you're quick) get a stack of chips on that single number bet, giving yourself a positive EV on the bet with a player edge of 100%. .
........

How on earth does the dealer do this?

I've only seen a dealer look at the wheel once in my years of playing Roulette - I then asked him what number he was trying to hit. He never looked again. Dealers are supposed to turn their heads and then spin - at least in Missouri and the casinos I frequent in Vegas.

If you guys play at tables where the dealer looks at the wheel and then tries to pick a release point I would be one of the folks asking the Pit Boss what number the casino was trying to hit that day. Let me in on the secret too.

Maybe in other parts of the world the dealer gets to pick a drop point but I sure would not gamble there........

Believe it or not, I have never wanted to be a loser !

I have a positive expectation on that fact.

Quote: AverageJOE

You want to be me? feel how its like to have positive expectation!

I'm sure your expectations are positive; it's reality that's giving you problems.

Quote: heather

Like Chess, Roulette is an abstract strategy game where the player has imperfect knowledge (the most important rule of Chess is to never allow your opponent to see your pieces).
The AP Roulette player has several options in this department. ... may elect to induce a different lubricating agent. Some dealers have been known to be fairly receptive to various liquors, such as tequila ...

Confirmed not working. Dealers in most casinos aren't allowed to accept drinks from players, and they don't. Assuming that you could get a server to help the dealer to one - even in case of success, a dealer that spills his game is also more likely to spill you out to the management.

What I prefer to do is use my specialist poker skills to my advantage, namely chip shuffling. You aren't supposed to shuffle chips at a roulette table, so it attracts attention, maybe a little annoyance. But neither is there any rule against it, so they can't do anything to stop you. Chip shuffling, when done well, has a mesmerizing effect - you put your eyes on it and you can't take them off for a few seconds without a conscious mental effort.

And if they are watching my hands, they aren't watching theirs. It's the way human mind works, when you watch someone's hands, you mentally process their movements like your own, same parts of the brain are involved, so you can work off "muscle memory", but not do complex randomizations or other actions requiring additional conscious hand-eye coordination.

While at that, neither are they watching my eyes, of course, and between the distraction and no concealment of movements I use that opportunity to track the dealer's button press and respond with my placement. I'll give it to you that this isn't 100%, and you can only do it a few times, but it's enough to be used as a way to recharge your bankroll after a bad beat stacks you in the poker room. Then you go back to grinding, so no suspicions arise at either side. It's essentially how Thomas Cloutier operates, even if it's nearly an open secret by now to anyone who knows him on first-name basis, but it still looks so legit that it works.

Quote: AverageJOE

Einstein was not so clever when he state that you have to steal from the dealer. Pretty stupid statement.

*sigh*

Here we go again. So, if you understand roulette better than Einstein how about showing some of your cards proving it. Also, be warned that I have a very short fuse for others using this forum to sell get-rich-quick schemes. I shouldn't need to say this, but if you really had anything it would not exactly behoove you to share, or even sell, the information.

deleted

Awesome inside information, heather!

Quote: heather

Some dealers have been known to be fairly receptive to various liquors, such as tequila, which, although they may cause the dealer to reveal the ball's intended destination,

What makes you think the dealer has a clue as
to where the ball will land?

Aw Bob, you know those dealers can not be driving Ferrari's, jet settings, owning those bog mansions, if it were not for getting kickbacks from the Roulette AP's. Seems so obvious !

Quote: heather

Roulette AP is like carnival game AP; you're mostly waiting around for the dealer to flash...

+1 would read again.

Quote: EvenBob

What makes you think the dealer has a clue as
to where the ball will land?

He checks the display and inputs the number to hit via a button under the table. It's implicitly necessary for compliance, otherwise the wheel might keep neglecting numbers for 300 spins and more, and, since people frequently keep betting on their birthday or otherwise unalterable number, resulting in unfair wealth redistribution and de-facto discriminatory taxation. The dealer is there to prevent that from happening, but more than just a prevention measure - it could be automated, while there always is human error -
he also provides an important function as the person to blame for everything, terminating the chain early to shield the rest of the casino.

not Ken

Quote: P90

He checks the display and inputs the number to hit via a button under the table.

What button? What are you talking about?

Quote: EvenBob

What button? What are you talking about?

It appears that P90 forgot to put the "/sarcasm" flag at the end of the post.

Quote: tupp

It appears that P90 forgot to put the "/sarcasm" flag at the end of the post.

Nice try at covering it up, but the cat is out of the bag now !

Quote: EvenBob

What makes you think the dealer has a clue as
to where the ball will land?

Because of the preprogrammed history displays, of course! Everyone knows that the outcome in Roulette is determined beforehand. Like professional wrestling, or bass fishing.

To be fair, I did also say that "the most important rule of Chess is to never allow your opponent to see your pieces."

Roulette AP always gets around to secret code talk - no logical explanation can be given as to how the dealer can be observed and a pattern found - the wheel is always spinning at a different speed for EVERY spin during the day.

So AP folks start to talk like possessed religious leaders speaking in some old forgotten language; total gibberish.

That's what all this now sounds like - Roulette gibberish that makes no sense to us mortals.............

Can I add a real question here to the discussion?

If a wheel became biased, how many spins would it take to determine the bias?

Certainly you can't detect a bias in one spin, or two.

So my next question is how often do the casinos monitor or check their wheels for bias?

And is there even a chance that someone could find and play a biased wheel before the casinos know about it?

(OK thats more than one question. But I think the discussion of roulette bias is fascinating. While I don't play the game, like everyone else in the casino, I always look at the board to see what numbers are hitting.)