Why do cheating men get married?
Quote: PloverI think human sexual behavior is somewhat influenced by our genes. Genes that increase the reproductive success of an individual are more likely to produce more copies of that individual's genes in future generations.
So for example, a gene that makes men have sex with as much fertile women as possible, might increase the reproductive success of those men. Over the long run a lot of men will carry that gene. So there will be a lot of men who are constantly looking for opportunities to cheat.
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One must be smarter than one's genetic programming. The biological imperative to reproduce is a stupid biological imperative.
Quote: Mission146
2.) Like, kinks or something? I wouldn't know. I would think that the ideal course of action would just be to discuss such things with your partner and see where that goes. Perhaps she is also unusual, in that regard. One old school friend of my fiancee's, for example, is involved in what I can only describe as a, "Sex Group," because I don't know what the word is. There's some number of men and women who can pretty much all engage in sexual congress with one another anytime they want to...and many of the individuals involved in this group are even married to one another.
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NO not kinks, I've had some friends tell me they want "strange," meaning "different." A different woman, a different body part. I'm trying not to be crude.
And, in general, I am an "analyst" who observes and thinks about the world around him without getting as judgmental as some others. Your post about what people should do in certain situations, situations that you apparently have never been in, strikes me as sincere but naïve. There are so many people who are different than you are in so many ways and yet you keep saying that people are selfish and recommending that people leave their spouses and end their marriages. Yes, people act selfishly everywhere in everything they do. Marriage is hard work for almost everyone and young people are tending towards a "hookup culture" yet you render moral judgements about the hypothetical husbands in my post. Basically, my post was about trying to understand why people do the things they do, but your post seems to be lecturing them about what they should do.
No heat in this post, just saying....
Quote: gordonm888NO not kinks, I've had some friends tell me they want "strange," meaning "different." A different woman, a different body part. I'm trying not to be crude.
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This matches my understanding. "Strange" is "other than your usual". In bygone days, "stepping out" for a dalliance.
Quote: gordonm888
NO not kinks, I've had some friends tell me they want "strange," meaning "different." A different woman, a different body part. I'm trying not to be crude.
And, in general, I am an "analyst" who observes and thinks about the world around him without getting as judgmental as some others. Your post about what people should do in certain situations, situations that you apparently have never been in, strikes me as sincere but naïve. There are so many people who are different than you are in so many ways and yet you keep saying that people are selfish and recommending that people leave their spouses and end their marriages. Yes, people act selfishly everywhere in everything they do. Marriage is hard work for almost everyone and young people are tending towards a "hookup culture" yet you render moral judgements about the hypothetical husbands in my post. Basically, my post was about trying to understand why people do the things they do, but your post seems to be lecturing them about what they should do.
No heat in this post, just saying....
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I'm not really trying to do that, but I don't see the moral question as monogamy v. "Hookup culture," but rather consent vs. a lack thereof.
For example, when it comes to having sex outside of the marriage, I only see it as a moral issue if one of the parties to the marriage is doing it without the consent of the other party. When such a thing happens, then I consider such an action immoral. In fact, that's one of the few things that I personally do consider immoral.
When you have people engaging in sexual congress outside of the marriage, but with consent, then I don't see it as a moral issue because I don't look at the act of consensual sex (in and of itself) as having any significance re: morality---whether one is married, or otherwise.
In short, I just see one discussion as involving the moral qualities of consensual behavior (of which there aren't any, in my opinion, at least not when it comes to consensual sex between adults) and the moral failing of going outside of the marriage/relationship without the consent of the spouse/significant other.
Quote: Mission146Quote: PloverI think human sexual behavior is somewhat influenced by our genes. Genes that increase the reproductive success of an individual are more likely to produce more copies of that individual's genes in future generations.
So for example, a gene that makes men have sex with as much fertile women as possible, might increase the reproductive success of those men. Over the long run a lot of men will carry that gene. So there will be a lot of men who are constantly looking for opportunities to cheat.
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One must be smarter than one's genetic programming. The biological imperative to reproduce is a stupid biological imperative.
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I agree that our genetic programming is flawed. But I disagree that reproduction is stupid. None of us would be alive if humans were unable to reproduce.
Quote: Plover
I agree that our genetic programming is flawed. But I disagree that reproduction is stupid. None of us would be alive if humans were unable to reproduce.
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I meant that giving into imperatives unthinkingly is stupid, not the act of reproduction. I guess I could get into an argument as to whether or not there is inherent value in any of us even being alive, but that's neither here nor there and is outside of the purview of this thread.
Dad said, "there are two types of women in this world. There are big Ole goodins and good Ole bigins." I looked at him puzzled. He said, "son, you might want to grab onto your beer cuz them two gals are about to get into a hair pullin contest over AL."
Sure enough, a few seconds later they came sailing across our table.
The question that came to mind was AL a one woman man? Or a one man woman? 🤔 Cuz he was shouting "stop it honey, I told you I'm a one man woman." 😲
I guess it depends on the vows themselves. Most weddings I have attended, including my own, have vows with language such as "I promise to be faithful" and "Forsaking all others." I would consider this to be not just implying, but stating explicitly that the marriage is to be monogamous.Quote: DRichI know that this is an old thread that just got bumped, but when did marriage start implying monogamous? i remember the part about "love and cherish until death do you part" but I would assume one could do that while bouncing on top of others.
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Quote: DRichI know that this is an old thread that just got bumped, but when did marriage start implying monogamous? i remember the part about "love and cherish until death do you part" but I would assume one could do that while bouncing on top of others.
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Since ever? At least in most of religions marriage has been monogamous for every (non-royalty) one. Guess there are good reasons and societal-evolutionary wisdom for that.
Quote: JoemanI guess it depends on the vows themselves. Most weddings I have attended, including my own, have vows with language such as "I promise to be faithful" and "Forsaking all others." I would consider this to be not just implying, but stating explicitly that the marriage is to be monogamous.Quote: DRichI know that this is an old thread that just got bumped, but when did marriage start implying monogamous? i remember the part about "love and cherish until death do you part" but I would assume one could do that while bouncing on top of others.
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Good call.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HktenTVb4S0
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t_AdbyjBOU0
Emily is probably my favorite because she's very smart for such a young girl. I keep hearing from these women that most men can count on one hand the number of sincere compliments they've gotten from a woman in their entire lives. Yet we give them compliments all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/o5XAhl0x9sg
Quote: EvenBobI am learning a ton of stuff about relationships and how women think by subscribing to several YouTube channels that are done by women. They mostly give advice to women about what they're doing wrong in trying to get a man. But a lot of their audience is men because you can pick up a lot of pointers from these women on how to treat your wife or why she's treating you a certain way.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HktenTVb4S0
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/t_AdbyjBOU0
Emily is probably my favorite because she's very smart for such a young girl. I keep hearing from these women that most men can count on one hand the number of sincere compliments they've gotten from a woman in their entire lives. Yet we give them compliments all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/o5XAhl0x9sg
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That's because women are desirable and men aren't. Why should women give us compliments? Why should a secure man even want a compliment?
Quote: Mission146
That's because women are desirable and men aren't. Why should women give us compliments? Why should a secure man even want a compliment?
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The suicide rate among white males in the United States is it an all-time high for all age groups. There's a lot of unhappy men in this country. A lot of it is relationship unhappiness, they don't feel appreciated. And according to these women men who don't feel appreciated are very hard to get along with, they're angry all the time, they're frustrated all the time. So you tell me, why should a woman ever give a man a compliment. I know when my wife tells me that she really appreciates that I did something for her, it makes my day. A few months ago there was a sale on her favorite ice cream, malted milk ball. So I bought 12 half gallons and put them in one of my two freezers because my wife lives in a retirement community and her condo doesn't have a freezer. She came over here on Wednesday to get some and she tells me how much she really appreciates me doing this for her. That meant a lot to me, it's nice to feel appreciated. Don't you like it when a woman appreciates what you do?
Quote: EvenBobQuote: Mission146
That's because women are desirable and men aren't. Why should women give us compliments? Why should a secure man even want a compliment?
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The suicide rate among white males in the United States is it an all-time high for all age groups. There's a lot of unhappy men in this country. A lot of it is relationship unhappiness, they don't feel appreciated. And according to these women men who don't feel appreciated are very hard to get along with, they're angry all the time, they're frustrated all the time. So you tell me, why should a woman ever give a man a compliment. I know when my wife tells me that she really appreciates that I did something for her, it makes my day. A few months ago there was a sale on her favorite ice cream, malted milk ball. So I bought 12 half gallons and put them in one of my two freezers because my wife lives in a retirement community and her condo doesn't have a freezer. She came over here on Wednesday to get some and she tells me how much she really appreciates me doing this for her. That meant a lot to me, it's nice to feel appreciated. Don't you like it when a woman appreciates what you do?
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Let's take this piece by piece:
1.) I think people should be free to commit suicide, if that is what they choose to do.
2.) Why do men have a right to feel appreciated? For those who are in relationships, are they making their partners feel appreciated? Nothing is unconditional.
3.) If men find themselves angry or frustrated, then they should change what they are doing. Why should they let women dictate, to them, how they feel?
4.) When a woman gives me a compliment, I respond politely. However, being a relatively secure person, the compliment itself makes no difference to me.
5.) If I am romantically involved with someone and she asks me to do something, then I will typically do it, if it is within reason. My assumption is that she appreciates me doing it, or she wouldn't have asked me to do it. Whether or not she expresses that appreciation is mostly immaterial as long as she doesn't criticize the way I went about the task she asked me to handle.
Quote: EvenBob[...my wife lives in a retirement community and her condo doesn't have a freezer. She came over here on Wednesday to get some...
Bravo.
There may be snow on the roof but there's still fire in the furnace.
(sorry, couldn't resist taking a swing at that one)
Quote: TigerWuI still think about compliments I got 25+ years ago.
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That's because we hardly ever get them.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/gm6-uk6Y6y8
(I don't know how to do these YouTube shorts so the video appears. The URL is different than a regular YouTube video)
Quote: PloverI think human sexual behavior is somewhat influenced by our genes. Genes that increase the reproductive success of an individual are more likely to produce more copies of that individual's genes in future generations.
I have never heard of "genes" driving sex drive. Testosterone levels, yes. Cultural upbringing, yes. General personality, yes. But no "gene."
Quote: EvenBobQuote: Mission146
That's because women are desirable and men aren't. Why should women give us compliments? Why should a secure man even want a compliment?
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The suicide rate among white males in the United States is it an all-time high for all age groups. There's a lot of unhappy men in this country. A lot of it is relationship unhappiness, they don't feel appreciated. And according to these women men who don't feel appreciated are very hard to get along with, they're angry all the time, they're frustrated all the time. So you tell me, why should a woman ever give a man a compliment. I know when my wife tells me that she really appreciates that I did something for her, it makes my day. A few months ago there was a sale on her favorite ice cream, malted milk ball. So I bought 12 half gallons and put them in one of my two freezers because my wife lives in a retirement community and her condo doesn't have a freezer. She came over here on Wednesday to get some and she tells me how much she really appreciates me doing this for her. That meant a lot to me, it's nice to feel appreciated. Don't you like it when a woman appreciates what you do?
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At the same time their testosterone levels are at an all time low. Yet this keeps getting ignored. That is the physical part, The relationship part is that too many women want to be "partners" instead of "wives." Husband/wife is supposed to be complimentary, not duplication of efforts. For younger guys the dating pool ends up being too many single moms with various life issues.
The ones who do go MGTOW because they just want no part of it all get shunned. You have to be a strong personality as there is no support system for men.
Quote: AZDuffman
At the same time their testosterone levels are at an all time low. Yet this keeps getting ignored. That is the physical part, The relationship part is that too many women want to be "partners" instead of "wives." Husband/wife is supposed to be complimentary, not duplication of efforts. For younger guys the dating pool ends up being too many single moms with various life issues.
The ones who do go MGTOW because they just want no part of it all get shunned. You have to be a strong personality as there is no support system for men.
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Why would what women want be the problem as opposed to the inability of these guys to operate within the parameters of what women want?
It seems to me that social evolution would entail an ability to adapt to changing conditions.
For men who are unable to satisfy the conditions of what women want, or to find women whose conditions they would satisfy, to fail to carry on their genetic line only seems natural. They were either unable, or unwilling, to attract a mate.
If a person wants to do something that so many before him have achieved, and fails, then that person should only worry about changing one person...not an entire category of people.
Quote: Mission146
For men who are unable to satisfy the conditions of what women want, or to find women whose conditions they would satisfy, to fail to carry on their genetic line only seems natural. They were either unable, or unwilling, to attract a mate.
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From everything I'm seeing coming from women, it's the women who are the problem here. They are over demanding of what they want in a relationship, they want the man to do everything they just want to be the Queen of Sheba and be catered to on almost every level. It's incredible the number of women who are a 5 or a 6 and they will tell you they are a 10 and they deserve a man who's a 10.
Quote: Mission146
Why would what women want be the problem as opposed to the inability of these guys to operate within the parameters of what women want?
Because what they want is unrealistic.
Quote:It seems to me that social evolution would entail an ability to adapt to changing conditions.
For men who are unable to satisfy the conditions of what women want, or to find women whose conditions they would satisfy, to fail to carry on their genetic line only seems natural. They were either unable, or unwilling, to attract a mate.
Take a look around. Something like 60% of men under 30 and 30% of women that age are not involved in a relationship. The imbalance is likely that age women dating older men. In Japan and South Korea it is even worse. Average woman in SK is now having less than 1 child. The men of the USA and the world are looking at things, seeing them stacked against them, and deciding to not bother.
Quote:If a person wants to do something that so many before him have achieved, and fails, then that person should only worry about changing one person...not an entire category of people.
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Second wave feminism started telling men "we don't need you!" Now the men are saying, "fine."
Quote: EvenBobQuote: Mission146
For men who are unable to satisfy the conditions of what women want, or to find women whose conditions they would satisfy, to fail to carry on their genetic line only seems natural. They were either unable, or unwilling, to attract a mate.
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From everything I'm seeing coming from women, it's the women who are the problem here. They are over demanding of what they want in a relationship, they want the man to do everything they just want to be the Queen of Sheba and be catered to on almost every level. It's incredible the number of women who are a 5 or a 6 and they will tell you they are a 10 and they deserve a man who's a 10.
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"The Husband Store" explains it perfectly. I will not repost it here to avoid a flagged post, but it shows perfectly how the expectations of women are causing their own problems.
Quote: WizardThere was a piece recently on the Sunday Morning Show how undergraduate students at the University of Vermont are about 60% female. UV is hardly the only college with this imbalance. It leads to questions of why are women outperforming men as well as whether there should be affirmative action for men in college admissions. Note I'm not advocating a side (although I do have a very strong opinion one way or the other), thus I don't feel I'm making a political statement.
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I think that is the high end of average for female % at colleges. It has been drifting that way since the 1990s. IMHO there are two reasons for this. Trying to avoid political as much as possible.
First. college is not the value it once was. Cost is way up yet for more and more jobs you need a specialized cert not a degree. Men have seen this faster than women. IMHO women have a "romance" about getting the degree that men do not. Those student loans kill you for near a decade after and lets face it. women are far more likely to get a spouse to help pay it off than men are. Men are pragmatic, the degree is far more a means to an end than some achievement. Yeah, you hear about the occasional athlete who wanted to go back for their degree, but men want it for the employment value far more. Why get a degree when you can take a trade or get your Microsoft cert and make almost $100K?
Second, men are being driven off campus all over the place. From the guy automatically being in the wrong in a date rape claim to calls to "end toxic masculinity" to any other number of PC actions, men are subtly and not so subtly being told they are not wanted there.
But instead of fighting like women did to get on campus 100 years ago, the men are saying, "take it, it's yours!" They do not care, they have moved on.
Quote: AZDuffmanFirst. college is not the value it once was. Cost is way up yet for more and more jobs you need a specialized cert not a degree. Men have seen this faster than women. IMHO women have a "romance" about getting the degree that men do not.
There are videos all over the internet of women crying their eyes out because they get out of college and they can't find a decent job. Now they have all this debt and they have no idea how they're going to pay it back. They're stunned that college lied to them about all these high paying jobs they were going to get when the first thing the employer asks is, what is your experience. They don't want education they want experience and it's always been that way.
Back in the 80s when I had the cab company I used to pick up this who's legally blind, couldn't drive, and he owned an employment agency. A place that would find a job for you. Now remember this is 40 years ago. He said the most common thing he gets is some guy who strolls into his office carrying his brand new degree sits down and almost puts his feet up on the desk, and starts with a list of demands of what he wants. When I inform him that he has zero experience in the workplace and he's lucky if I can get him a assistant manager job at Tom McCann's shoe store in the mall, some of them actually start crying. This is like 1985. You can only imagine how much worse it's gotten since then because the college debt now is unbelievable.
There's a recent video that's gone viral of this little girl who just got her degree and is going crazy in the front seat of her car screaming about how much debt she's in and she can't find a decent job and how she should have bought an $80,000 pickup truck instead of spending it all on College. This shows you how screwed up these kids are, because she's serious. They have absolutely no idea of what real life is like because nobody prepared them.
Quote: TigerWuI still think about compliments I got 25+ years ago.
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The greatest compliment I get from my wife is that she wants me alive more than she wants the life insurance money. I question her judgement but I still appreciate it.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: AZDuffmanFirst. college is not the value it once was. Cost is way up yet for more and more jobs you need a specialized cert not a degree. Men have seen this faster than women. IMHO women have a "romance" about getting the degree that men do not.
There are videos all over the internet of women crying their eyes out because they get out of college and they can't find a decent job. Now they have all this debt and they have no idea how they're going to pay it back. They're stunned that college lied to them about all these high paying jobs they were going to get when the first thing the employer asks is, what is your experience. They don't want education they want experience and it's always been that way.
I love watching those videos. One was a girl who had her degree in poly-sci IIRC. Her "dream job" was registering people to vote. She was in awe when it paid little and ended after the election.
If I ran things I would allow $0 in student loans for freshmen year and charge colleges back for student loans defaulted on. This sending kids to college automatically has to end. This bragging that you had X% of your student body go to college has to end. Too much money wasted.
Quote: AZDuffman
If I ran things I would allow $0 in student loans for freshmen year and charge colleges back for student loans defaulted on. This sending kids to college automatically has to end. This bragging that you had X% of your student body go to college has to end. Too much money wasted.
I think that is a little too extreme. I think the government should quit backing student loans. Let the banks take the full risk and then they will be more discerning.
Quote: DRichQuote: AZDuffman
If I ran things I would allow $0 in student loans for freshmen year and charge colleges back for student loans defaulted on. This sending kids to college automatically has to end. This bragging that you had X% of your student body go to college has to end. Too much money wasted.
I think that is a little too extreme. I think the government should quit backing student loans. Let the banks take the full risk and then they will be more discerning.
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Caution: this specific subtopic is turning political.
Caution is to any thread participants, not just DRich and AZDuffman.
Quote: DieterQuote: DRich
I think that is a little too extreme. I think the government should quit backing student loans. Let the banks take the full risk and then they will be more discerning.
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Caution: this specific subtopic is turning political.
Caution is to any thread participants, not just DRich and AZDuffman.
Sorry, I apologize. Please don't sentence me to public flogging.
Quote: DRichQuote: DieterQuote: DRich
I think that is a little too extreme. I think the government should quit backing student loans. Let the banks take the full risk and then they will be more discerning.
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Caution: this specific subtopic is turning political.
Caution is to any thread participants, not just DRich and AZDuffman.
Sorry, I apologize. Please don't sentence me to public flogging.
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Edited original for misformatting.
I see no reason to bring the public floggings if the cautions are heeded.
edit: clarification - the talk of student loans is the bit that seems like a political controversy
