PLAZA CASINO BONUS FOR TAX DAY (reposted)
Even if, by your own estimate, there is a 1% chance of costing someone say, 10k, that means that your lifting 100 bucks from their wallet on average. Now, if you have any ability to make good judgements on such matters, you have to factor in the possibility that you are wrong, and perhaps very wrong.
I have no problem leaving breadcrumbs for aspiring APs and the like. I do so myself, though in other areas. And, as someone who was absolutely clueless about this area, I've benefited a lot from such breadcrumbs. Axel himself has been exceptionally generous with me (so maybe I'm biased). But I try not to put out stuff that's helpful to casinos, books, etc. when it could yank the rug from under someone else, even for a small amount.
There's a way to go about things, IMO. And there's room for different outlooks. But you have to consider the venue you are using, and who could possibly be helped or hurt by sharing this particular info at this particular time in this particular place.
Also, the "it was public information" argument doesn't hold any water. There's a mountain of public info, all of which is nearly meaningless without context and interpretation. Every sports betting line is public info, as is much of the info someone might put together analyzing a stock, as are casino promotions. They are promotions, after all. Hell, everything in most non-fiction writing is public information. But that doesn't make it right for every person to share that info in every situation.
Also, don't think this is a free speech issue. I'm pretty militant about free speech, but I don't think anything in On Liberty suggests we can't keep things on the downlow occasionally.
That's a different subject altogether.Quote: MathExtremistThat's not going to do it though. If you're actually in the 28% tax bracket to start with, winning a $20,000 jackpot and getting the extra 28% means you get $25,600. At the 28% tax rate, the tax on $25,600 is $7168 so you're left with $18,432. Just saying...Quote: AxelWolfOne of the official rules for the Plaza promotion was....
Rule 3: The Plaza will pay a 28 percent bonus on all taxable winnings over 1200 and up to $20,000 in free slot play.
The right way to calculate the bonus rate to yield a "tax free" award is to take the tax rate R and give a bonus of R/(1-R). If 28% is the actual tax rate, R/(1-R) is 38.89%. The bonus would then be 38.89% of 20k and the win is a total of $27,777.78. When you tax *that* amount at 28% you get back to $20k. Of course, if that 27k award pushes you into the next tax bracket then you're not actually made whole. On the other hand, that also means you're making more than about $205k/year anyway so you'd better be good at tax planning by now.
I was just pointing out that 20k was meant specifically to include the $5 VP.
Most Jackpot promos cap at 10k.
Either way we have solid specific information that yes they were originally going to allow the $5.
I'm sure the W-2G doesn't include the free play amount, but any cash winnings from free play is properly reported as business income to Schedule C filers. Unless the professional gamblers who are playing this are also cheating on their taxes, it's still an effective (taxable) bonus of 27-ish percent (assuming a minimal loss of the theoretical value of free play due to playing optimal VP or something).Quote: DRichThe 28% was being paid in free play not cash so there shouldn't be any tax consequences.
Oh, I know. It's just a pet peeve of mine when casino marketers try to get clever but get the math wrong. It'd be one thing to say "today's a tax-day bonus, we're adding 28% to your winnings to help defray taxes." That's just a nice short-term promo, and I'd assume very lucrative if you could play $100 slots. Depending on the game, a significant percentage of $100 denom slot pays are hand pays at the 1.28x bonus that should mean a significantly positive game off the top (assuming you start at the average of 95%). Based on $100/spin and 600 spins/hour you're likely doing better than +$1,000/hour theo if you can afford the bankroll. But I just looked and the GCB doesn't report any $100 slots downtown. Oh well.Quote: AxelWolfThat's a different subject altogether.
The point is, it's not accurate to say "we're covering your taxes, here's a 28% bonus" because that doesn't actually cover the taxes.
For some reason, a post by Keeneone was causing a problem with doing this earlier. I had to remove a table I made that he quoted to be able to do the split, for which I apologize.
It doesn't just hurt AP's. The fact that the casino took off the $5 cost non AP's and people who could've really used the money over $1400.Quote: TomGIf anyone doesn't like it that gambling information gets put up on internat chat rooms, the only appropriate response is to not read it. If having a more educated population hurts your income, get better at your job.
Quote: RigondeauxSo, was the problem that Axel contacted RS, DJTC and Wizard of Nothing to flag the post? If they had flagged it independently, would it still have been a problem?
It would still be a problem, because whether independent or team (and they are not a team, they are the guys who flagged the post, whether it was coordinated among some of them or not), they used the flag function to censor a post that was not spam, not profane, or otherwise rule-breaking, and was in fact information that was of interest and pertinent to the forum.
The flag button was put in place because there were only a couple of moderators and the great majority of members are legitimately interested in the forum for its stated purpose. They could be trusted to help clean off spammers and bots. It's somewhat archaic now, as things get seen more quickly with more of us, but hadn't been used for other than its understood purpose (to my knowledge) until now (or recently; perhaps there were flame wars before my time or something).
Let Me Explain SomethingQuote: RigondeauxSo, was the problem that Axel contacted RS, DJTC and Wizard of Nothing to flag the post? If they had flagged it independently, would it still have been a problem?
First off I didn't tell Wizardofnothing to flag anything, whatever he did was totally independent and on his own volition.
People here know Djact works with me so they might want to make that connection. I'll neither confirm or deny his involvement.
Wizardofnothing is absolutely independent from me and DJ or RS and so there was no big conspiracy or gang of bullies here.
Anyone who has ever meet Dj or RS would absolutely know they are anything but bullies.
One drives a Miata and the other one has a pink rainbow cat as an Icon for heaven's sake.
Quote: AxelWolfIt doesn't just hurt AP's. The fact that the casino took off the $5 cost non AP's and people who could've really used the money over $1400.
Disadvantage Players have the most to gain from spreading information
Axel and I definitely do not work together nor am I employed by him as dj is ( not sure why he is still on the payroll) - jk
I flagged this on my own
I may have been wrong
However my respect for darkoz is out the window. If in fact he claims to want to disclose information for the public then he should disclose plays that he benefits from in New York City... I will refrain from disclosing anything at this point , but to disclose something simply because he is located in New York and does not travel to Vegas for plays actually seems selfish to me and hypocritical, post things you deal with in New York and my opinion will change .
Quote: WizardofnothingJust a brief note on this,
Axel and I definitely do not work together nor am I employed by him as dj is ( not sure why he is still on the payroll) - jk
I flagged this on my own
I may have been wrong
However my respect for darkoz is out the window. If in fact he claims to want to disclose information for the public then he should disclose plays that he benefits from in New York City... I will refrain from disclosing anything at this point , but to disclose something simply because he is located in New York and does not travel to Vegas for plays actually seems selfish to me and hypocritical, post things you deal with in New York and my opinion will change .
All of this. Really, the information benefited nobody. The place was packed with APs. Tell me how 60 jackpots going off in an hour benefits APs or the casino. This place probably gets 1 jackpot on graveyard shift. The poor lone slot attendent was running around all night doing handpays. Surveillance and night shift management were freaking out because they didn't know what was going on. APs were waiting HOURS to get paid. You have to believe that at least some people were there because of the WoV post. Anything less than the attendance that showed up would have been better. Fortunately all of the employees and the owner were extremely accommodating and allowed the promotion to continue.
Quote: AxelWolfI have information what killed the $5. Why the promo lasted, what the casino may or may have not have known and what they were thinking.
Interested in all this info. Plz pm if sensitive. What I was told was that they kept running the promotion out of principle: they said they would do the promo, so they would stick to it and not cancel. I guess to have a good image. Not sure if there's better answer.
Spreading the information cost everyone money indeed. publicly posting the math absolutely got the $5 taken out.Quote: AvincowAll of this. Really, the information benefited nobody. The place was packed with APs. Tell me how 60 jackpots going off in an hour benefits APs or the casino. This place probably gets 1 jackpot on graveyard shift. The poor lone slot attendent was running around all night doing handpays. Surveillance and night shift management were freaking out because they didn't know what was going on. APs were waiting HOURS to get paid. You have to believe that at least some people were there because of the WoV post. Anything less than the attendance that showed up would have been better. Fortunately all of the employees and the owner were extremely accommodating and allowed the promotion to continue.
FROM THE OWNER HIMSELF(others can confirm) During the play.Something to the effect of......
Had I thought or known about games xxx and xxx I would've excluded it prior. I didn't think about doing XXX or xxx.
You guys got me on this and other plays.*shrugs shoulders*
He decided not to cancel it for a few different reasons. MUCH RESPECT. Since he knew the percentages and still let it go. Talk about a good sport.
I'm not going into that because it's an important aspect.
Do casinos read forums? This guy does.
I promise you darkoz would feel differently if it took money out of his pocket,
Maybe someone should have advertised the bus promotion and how to beat it when he was doing that .... Oh that's right it was a 30 dollar play!!!
Quote: WizardofnothingI can confirm that the owner was 100 percent on site and saw what was being played.
Poju Zabludowicz was there? He's the Chairman and CEO of Tamares Group which owns the Plaza.
Hold on a second. He reads these forums, knows about people like Wiz, Eliot or me, and still runs a promo with that many holes in it? Letting it run even after he realized it is probably the right move from a PR standpoint but there are definitely ways to check a promo for exploits before it goes out the door.Quote: AxelWolfFROM THE OWNER HIMSELF(others can confirm) During the play.Something to the effect of......
Had I thought or known about games xxx and xxx I would've excluded it prior. I didn't think about doing XXX or xxx.
You guys got me on this and other plays.*shrugs shoulders*
...
Do casinos read forums? This guy does.
I got a call once from a casino in Washington that complained about a BJ promo that dumped. They tried to run a 2-to-1 suited blackjack promo, except they forgot about the "suited" part and were paying 2-1 on all naturals all weekend. Whoops.
On the other hand, like I'm one to talk. I designed a bunch of accumulator slots in the 90s and those entire *games* had holes in them.
Give props to the Plaza and Jonathan Jossel Owner/C.E.O.Quote: tringlomaneWell I gotta give props for the Plaza not cutting the promo down further given the circumstances..
He's actually a cool guy.
I know he was kinda Toying with a few AP's and Visa Versa but he knew mostly what was going on. He seemed to be more offended when or that some AP's were just trying to completely snow him or they just buried their head when he introduced himself. It was completely obvious who was with who and exactly why people were there.
I swear one guy said who the hell are you? get away from me! He was casually dressed as if they called him from golfing or something.
He knew how much people were up or down how they did on free play. He knew who rarely came in who comes in often.
Djatc seemed to get paid faster!
See my post in mission articles thread.Quote: MathExtremistHold on a second. He reads these forums, knows about people like Wiz, Eliot or me, and still runs a promo with that many holes in it? Letting it run even after he realized it is probably the right move from a PR standpoint but there are definitely ways to check a promo for exploits before it goes out the door.
I got a call once from a casino in Washington that complained about a BJ promo that dumped. They tried to run a 2-to-1 suited blackjack promo, except they forgot about the "suited" part and were paying 2-1 on all naturals all weekend. Whoops.
On the other hand, like I'm one to talk. I designed a bunch of accumulator slots in the 90s and those entire *games* had holes in them.
MUCH ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to you. If not for stuff like that... because I started with like $300 and a bicycle.Quote: MathExtremist.
On the other hand, like I'm one to talk. I designed a bunch of accumulator slots in the 90s and those entire *games* had holes in them.
What ones?
PS I called them banking slots.
Well then someone is running around with fake cards and telling slot techs what to do.Quote: IbeatyouracesPoju Zabludowicz was there? He's the Chairman and CEO of Tamares Group which owns the Plaza.
Dam it, I should have gotten a card made up to and then asked them to add some $100 VP
It's been almost 20 years but I recall the ones that really got killed were Vacation USA and the follow-on Vacation Cruise. Two 10-spot accumulators running in parallel. We may have had others, I can't recall at this time and those titles are long dead in the back rooms of IGT somewhere. I think the "banking slots" phrase came from the earlier Piggy Bankin' games, but that was WMS.Quote: AxelWolfMUCH ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to you. If not for stuff like that... because I started with like $300 and a bicycle.
What ones?
PS I called them banking slots.
Quote: AxelWolfSpreading the information cost everyone money indeed. publicly posting the math absolutely got the $5 taken out.
FROM THE OWNER HIMSELF(others can confirm) During the play.Something to the effect of......
Had I thought or known about games xxx and xxx I would've excluded it prior. I didn't think about doing XXX or xxx.
You guys got me on this and other plays.*shrugs shoulders*
He decided not to cancel it for a few different reasons. MUCH RESPECT. Since he knew the percentages and still let it go. Talk about a good sport.
I'm not going into that because it's an important aspect.
Do casinos read forums? This guy does.
I know I am not an AP but at the end of the day this information being leaked cost a few people A LOT of money and IMO that is wrong. We all want to beat the casinos so why would we do anything that would help them out. Casinos are the "enemy" not each other. We should be helping each other not hurting each other. Just my 2 cents (maybe 3 cents I did ramble a bit).
https://www.thrillist.com/drink/nation/the-most-expensive-beers-in-the-world
Quote: WizardofnothingJust a brief note on this,
Axel and I definitely do not work together nor am I employed by him as dj is ( not sure why he is still on the payroll) - jk
I flagged this on my own
I may have been wrong
However my respect for darkoz is out the window. If in fact he claims to want to disclose information for the public then he should disclose plays that he benefits from in New York City... I will refrain from disclosing anything at this point , but to disclose something simply because he is located in New York and does not travel to Vegas for plays actually seems selfish to me and hypocritical, post things you deal with in New York and my opinion will change .
I'm not employed by Axel or anyone, we work together.
There were banking machines before Pigg's.Quote: MathExtremistIt's been almost 20 years but I recall the ones that really got killed were Vacation USA and the follow-on Vacation Cruise. Two 10-spot accumulators running in parallel. We may have had others, I can't recall at this time and those titles are long dead in the back rooms of IGT somewhere. I think the "banking slots" phrase came from the earlier Piggy Bankin' games, but that was WMS.
I remember Vacation USA and the follow-on Vacation Cruise very well they were very juicy until the word got out. I didn't play them long because I was on to other stuff and the competition became fierce. Imagine if every street performer and credit hustler suddenly showed up at a casinos that had them.
I couldn't afford to even feed you.Quote: djatcI'm not employed by Axel or anyone, we work together.
Other than all of this nonsense and BS about ruining a play that others can actually play and make good money at......the play went well over all. Ran bad, but oh well. Props to the owner of the Plaza for not cancelling the promotion early. He seemed like a very good guy and pretty cool.
Radio silence (lol, as one person put it) was simply because I was busy. Don't read too much into my not making comments for a day.
The real problem everyone who thinks I ruined this promotion has is that they really are not against me. They are against the Wizard and all the other mathematicians on here.
Axel and others keep saying "Darkoz posted sensitive information". Actually, I posted the information the Plaza released as a press announcement.
There is no way the Plaza read their own information and then decided it was a bad idea.
HOWEVER, you guys are guests on a message board from the Wizard who posted the mathematical breakdown. Bad etiquette to decry him, isn't it? SO, you guys keep railing against me.
As for New York plays, sure, I don't mind. Throw some out there. I might even take advantage of them if I am unaware of them and thank you for posting the info.
Resorts International in AC is giving a promo for new members. You can get up to $500 free play for earning certain points. You aren't a new member, don't worry, you can bribe a homeless guy to get you a new players card and supply you with the pin.
At Resorts World in Queens, you can earn points with free-play so if the promotion requires you to earn 10 points, you can just use the free-play from one persons card to qualify for the next. Oh, and here's a little hint, it's five dollars a point at their slots. But their machines are set to award you the point if you are 80% close when you log out so just play a $4 max bet and pull your players card out after each spin. You will get a 20% discount on earning points.
In NYS, a jackpot is $600 and over (not $1200). It's issued in a "Limited Voucher" format which is unplayable. You have to go to the cashier. They don't link the player to the jackpot so if you owe any money, just have someone else cash it out for you (trust me, that one is no secret in NY)
BTW, if you don't have problems owing money, at Resorts World, cashing out a jackpot voucher has no effect on your ADT. At Yonkers, it does. If you were playing unrated and cash out a jackpot voucher, bang you just logged yourself in. Solution: If you can't get someone you trust to cash out for you, just wait 45 days - after that the voucher can be cashed out at any off-site NY Lottery office which is not tied into Yonkers rating system.
There, WIzardofNothing, happy?
www.gamingtoday.com/vegas_style/vegas_style_Casino_Deals/article/59804-Turning_tax_time_into_money_time_at_the_casino#.VxpBiqDD8b0
Quote: AxelWolfWell then someone is running around with fake cards and telling slot techs what to do.
Dam it, I should have gotten a card made up to and then asked them to add some $100 VP
I'm sure he's the guy running the show there at the place.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI first read about the promo here:
www.gamingtoday.com/vegas_style/vegas_style_Casino_Deals/article/59804-Turning_tax_time_into_money_time_at_the_casino#.VxpBiqDD8b0
Thank you!
But apparently, I ruined the promotion. Not GamingToday or LasVegasAdvisor or the casinos own website.
Quote: WizardofnothingYou are missing the point.... They advertise and pay for it , no need to post in forum,,,,, you want to give people info give them New York info.... But no .... You are radio silent on that
Am I radio silent on that? That's funny because about four posts ago I gave NY info. Or do you not do your homework.
Quote: darkozThank you!
But apparently, I ruined the promotion. Not GamingToday or LasVegasAdvisor or the casinos own website.
There are a bunch of junk promotions posted everyday. If some diamonds accidentally get thrown in the trash, no one will be searching for them until they realize it is there. You made people realize there was a diamond. And now there are less diamonds to go around
Quote: AvincowThere are a bunch of junk promotions posted everyday. If some diamonds accidentally get thrown in the trash, no one will be searching for them until they realize it is there. You made people realize there was a diamond. And now there are less diamonds to go around
So, maybe I should start posting links to all the promotions in Vegas on this forum? So, the diamonds get lost amongst the junk?
Quote: darkozSo, maybe I should start posting links to all the promotions in Vegas on this forum? So, the diamonds get lost amongst the junk?
If you become a shitposter, then yes, technically that would be better. But it would be ideal to purposely leave out the good promotions because you might actually get a reply or two on those ones.
In all seriousness, you know what I meant. Because at the end of the day, you did affect our bottom lines. As I said before, there was so much time wasted waiting for handpays. There was so much time wasted just waiting around. During the first 6 hours of the promotion we weren't sure if the promotion would get cancelled and the bonus wouldn't get paid out.
Quote: AvincowIf you become a shitposter, then yes, technically that would be better. But it would be ideal to purposely leave out the good promotions because you might actually get a reply or two on those ones.
In all seriousness, you know what I meant. Because at the end of the day, you did affect our bottom lines. As I said before, there was so much time wasted waiting for handpays. There was so much time wasted just waiting around. During the first 6 hours of the promotion we weren't sure if the promotion would get cancelled and the bonus wouldn't get paid out.
I did not affect your bottom line anymore than Anthony Curtis or Steve Bourie.
Are you seriously suggesting that no one from the gambling community, AP or casino employees goes to any of those websites?
And if you guys are aware of any lucrative NY promotions, I beg of you to please and absolutely post them here so I and my fellow AP's can take advantage. If its advertised in the press, feel free to post.
