Discussion III about the Suspension List
Quote: ChumpChangeStatement from "Kandahar Department of Information & Culture Media"
Attention in Kandahar - All local media outlets in #Kandahar (radios & televisions) are informed that music & programs that involve women's voices or women in some way will no longer be permitted.
#Taliban
WARNING: Knock it off ChumpChange. This is close to being politics (Certainly it is on world events that are being politicized.) And you have also managed to begin to hijack an otherwise wide-open Discussion About the Suspension List Thread with a completely irrelevant post. You are a smart guy and I know you feel things strongly, but a repetition will not be tolerated.
Quote: billryanA question to the mods.
My understanding is this is supposed to a PG forum ,meaning discussions and language should be held to the standard of what is acceptable in a PG movie.
I used the term bullshit to describe a firms position. Not used against a member, but a firm. That word is used in PG movies and lately I've even seen it on a TNT program. Is it acceptable here, and if not is bullspit a better term to use? It seems silly when everyone will understand the word I'd prefer to use but I'll will abide by your rulings. Thanks.
My reading says that profanity is entirely prohibited.
I suggest using words and phrases that convey the meaning without offending the sensibilities.
With regard to "bullspit", it doesn't strike me as profane.
Bleeping the profanity is a lazy way to stay out of trouble. Rewriting to avoid a bleep is more work, but sounds better.
"Your novel betting system is utter BS."
"Your novel betting system seems as if it was shoveled from the manure heap."
Quote: billryanA question to the mods.
My understanding is this is supposed to a PG forum ,meaning discussions and language should be held to the standard of what is acceptable in a PG movie.
I used the term bullshit to describe a firms position. Not used against a member, but a firm. That word is used in PG movies and lately I've even seen it on a TNT program. Is it acceptable here, and if not is bullspit a better term to use? It seems silly when everyone will understand the word I'd prefer to use but I'll will abide by your rulings. Thanks.
Fair question. I don't know, other mods and Wizard will probably need to rule. As you have phrased it (It is used against a corporation and not against a WOV forums member, it is not used politically, religiously, etc.) is a best case. I note that "BS" is less coarse, has been repeatedly allowed in the forum, and is instantly recognized as having the same meaning. And if we allow it, do we also allow "horsesh*t"? Times change, and our rules may gradually change with them, but I wonder if our argumentative forum will be a better place if our roads are splattered with the "sh*t" word.
Quote: DieterMy reading says that profanity is entirely prohibited.
I suggest using words and phrases that convey the meaning without offending the sensibilities.
(snip)
Not actually disagreeing, but there are gray areas. The rules are enforced by humans who consider context and "degree of profanity." Profane words such as "damn" and "ass" (when the context is appropriate) have been routinely allowed. Some people consider "suck" and "MILF" to be profane but I have seen them used without moderator intervention. Bill's reference to our "PG standard" was fair.
I agree one shouldn't be able to say member or a moderator sucks. That is a personal attack and those shouldn't be allowed. But is saying a movie sucks okay? We are all adults. If somebody asks me how a movie I detested was, I'm not going to say it stank. I'd reply it sucked and the person who asked would have a very clear understanding of how I felt about it.
Quote: gordonm888Not actually disagreeing, but there are gray areas. The rules are enforced by humans who consider context and "degree of profanity."
Completely agreeing.
The spectrum on a lot of issues is generally:
OK -- GRAY AREA -- WHOLLY UNACCEPTABLE.
The nature of the inquiry suggests an underlying question of "What kind of dubious action in the gray area will be tolerated?"
Which I address metaphorically as "You're playing with fire; maybe you cook a nice steak dinner, maybe you get burned. Be careful and feel free to take a step back."
Sorry, this - like most situations - is a Potter Stewart "I know it when I see it" call. That said, if you had to taste a bar of soap or play a -EV swear jar for a word, skip it.
Quote: billryanBut is saying a movie sucks okay?
I dunno, did I like the movie?
You invested 107 minutes of your life and seventeen bucks, surely you got more than one word in return.
"My date and I quickly lost interest in the film, and only occasionally looked up from our makeout session in hopes of being impressed by the special effects in the car crash scenes."
Quote: MrVWould it be a violation to say something like "My date and I quickly lost interest in the film, and only occasionally looked up from our makeout session wherein she sucked like a vacuum cleaner?"
What you did or didn't do with a vacuum cleaner in your formative years is not mine nor the forum membership's business.
I can only presume she was working her beverage straw because you didn't recognize that the extra $3 for the giant bucket of cola was the +EV purchase.
Quote: billryanKeep it PG. No pornographic or violent images or text. Profanity is prohibited, especially the F word. (Amended 2/23/14 to not allow profanity at all. The previous policy was more lenient.)
I agree one shouldn't be able to say member or a moderator sucks. That is a personal attack and those shouldn't be allowed. But is saying a movie sucks okay? We are all adults. If somebody asks me how a movie I detested was, I'm not going to say it stank. I'd reply it sucked and the person who asked would have a very clear understanding of how I felt about it.
"Life sucks and then you die." Personally, I'm never going to be intervening because somebody says that.
I have personally posted "That belongs in the Hall of Fame, Suck Division" about something that happened to someone and nobody nuked me, LOL.
However, as I think we all agree, when you say that a certain person sucks, it is insulting and also can be interpreted as having a bit of a sexual connotation, whereas "you suck at making NFL picks" is more acceptable (I think Mission even has a "You Suck" award in his contest and we praise him for that - again, context and intent is important.)
"Hell" is another very mild profanity that I personally don't object to (although I know of instances of people getting police attention for using that word in a public place.)
I'm not in favor of trying to set up strict legalistic rules about the gray areas of profanity. We will know it when we see it, and for those who can't stand the jeopardy posed by a vaguely defined rule then you-all should strive to stay away from the gray areas.
The Cock crows at six AM!
Quote: darkozWill I get suspended if I use the word Cock?
The Cock crows at six AM!
It's probably acceptable to talk about roosters and donkeys.
Do you gamble much for roosters? ...Donkeys?
Are there a lot of farms with these animals in Las Vegas?
A rooster and a half won't lay an egg and a half in a day and a half....
So it's probably off topic, even if the context of the word makes it not profane.
Quote: Marcusclark66Why was MDawg suspended?
Misquoting.
The issue is still being discussed.
Misquoting.Quote: Dieter
The issue is still being discussed.
A suggestion - I'm not sure what software this forum is, but a custom built forum I am a member of, has this feature where when you want to quote someone, you simply click 'quote' and much like how this quote turns out, it gives you the full text, however, it also handily includes a link to the post the quote was from, so users can more readily jump back to the referred post (which is handy, if a post was long, you'd want to strip out the irrelevant bits to keep the relevant quote).
If this software is one of the pre-made forum software packages, perhaps they have an add-on that allows for the quote to be referenced? - In the other software, if you clicked the name (in this example 'Dieter' would be linked) - it'd take me to Dieter's post..
That's probably handy for moderation too?
It's also handy if you want to quote across threads.. for example - Quoting a post in MDawg's investments, into MDawg's massive adventure thread.
Much like the quoted example actually, just without the effort being placed on the user.
[-link=/forum/info/rules/36338-discussion-iii-about-the-suspension-list/4/#post821148][-q=Dieter][-/link]
Quote:What questionable nonsense can I get away with?
We don't know.
It's all evaluated on a case by case basis, and it's unlikely that a false step over the line is going to amount to more than a few days of feeling sheepish (or irate) and being unable to post about it.
Quote: TwelveOr21
If this software is one of the pre-made forum software packages, perhaps they have an add-on that allows for the quote to be referenced?
It is a custom development.
Plugins and enhancements for other platforms, like phpbb, will not drop in - not even close.
I can certainly refer the idea to Miro.
What for this time?
He going for the record?
Quote: darkozMDawg in red again?
What for this time?
He going for the record?
Please see the prior post addressing this.
Quote: darkozWill I get suspended if I use the word Cock?
The Cock crows at six AM!
I guess we could have a thread on betting on cock fighting. If I wasn't lazy at the moment, I would look through the rules about illegal activity betting.
He's full of Craps.
So it feels a little like it's tied into gambling.
Meh, not really. It was all in good fun, you can see people were making up funny slogans regarding Mission running for moderator. Most everyone clearly knows WMOAT has been a running joke. One would assume WMOAT=suck. And if you had read one of my other posts, I said that I thought the combination of all the Mods were doing a fairly good job.Quote: gordonm888This is not a criticism of moderator actions, this is just an insult. Suspension for 3 days due to personal insult.
With that being said... I somehow knew what I said might be just enough to be taken the wrong way and earn me a suspension, especially given the fact that you guys had just cracked down on 2 or 3 people. Not suspending me might be seen as unfair.
I could have made it clear with a J/K. But, what fun would that be? I took a chance and clicked the post button since I knew I had a busy weekend ahead anyways. As Mission pointed out, I really don't get upset or piss-off when I get suspended, and I don't take it personally. Even if it's an unwarranted/unfair suspension(like the one I'm talking about), I dont really care, I have no doubt there have been times where I probably should have been suspended, but I wasn't.
I do caution the current Dream Team to be careful when it comes to suspending people who are in fact making a joke or a light-hearted comment. As far as I'm concerned, if we can't joke around and have a little fun, then that would make me and a few others want to be here much less.
Thank You for your support. As you can see in my post above.Quote: KeeneoneI agree. The whole WMOAT thing is a long running AW joke about the moderators performance on the site (and not about the moderators personally). I am pretty sure Gordon knows this as he has commented on the WMOAT joke recently:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/off-topic/18435-miscellaneous-discussion-thread/1322/#post817210
I will repeat what I said to Keeneone. Thank you for the support...Quote: unJonQuote: KeeneoneQuote: gordonm888IMO, a post that says "the moderators suck" without any elaboration, is simply name-calling.
If someone walked into an area you were in and said "you suck!" you would feel insulted. I know that I would. And I would not countenance that.
If you logged into the 2+2 Poker forum and posted these three words "the Moderators suck", exactly what would you expect to happen?
I am open to criticism, because I may learn from criticism and improve myself. But if someone simply wants to post "The Wizard sucks" or "Mission Sucks" or "Mission sucks less than OnceDear" then there will be consequences -especially when there is no articulation of a rationale for such a statement. Because these are not critical statements about actions, they are intended to belittle and to insult.
-bolding mine-
I agree with most of this post, but the bolded section is not correct. AW included "#WMOAT" in the post. Thus it was a joke. Oncedear has been tolerant of "WMOAT" for some time now. If you (or other mods) no longer want to allow the WMOAT joke to continue moving forward, then please let everyone know so suspensions can be avoided.
We all make mistakes, this one is an easy fix. Free AxelWolf.
I agree. Feels like entrapment to be tolerant of and even encourage WMOAT then do this.
Don't be jealous bro.Quote: SOOPOOAxel’s WMOAT comments are trite, uninteresting, overused, boring, hijacking (usually) and rarely of any interest to anyone but himself. Really a waste of a few hundred posts.
You are correct, it was very obvious. I think it was more of a situation where the Mod(s) were thinking that the guys who just got the banhammer might feel slighted had I not been suspended for that.Quote: SOOPOOBut so far below the bar of what should result in a suspension….
You are correct, I really didn't/ don't care. I can only think of a few people that really DO CARE. Members who no doubt doggedly send a fury emails crying and arguing their case.Quote: SOOPOOHe won’t care and will return in 3 days after his time out is over.
I have always been just as ornery, you may have not noticed in the past since you were too busy being 10x more ornery then than you are now. (-:Quote: MrVAxel seems to be a bit ... different ... than he used to be.
More ornery.
Also, many of the former good members have moved on from the forum leaving us with... well, you know.
Dieter says many things that are hard to understand.Quote: KeeneoneQuote: DieterQuote: JBThis forum is designed to be self-moderating.
Emphasis mine.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/info/rules/2-forum-rules/#post2
I believe this post has been up since day 1.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post in this thread.
I must admit, I do not understand what you are saying with your response.
Quote: Marcusclark66Why was MDawg suspended?
First, thank you for your reasonably balanced reaction to your suspension. Welcome back.
IMHO, slapping a #WMOAT onto a post shouldn't give anyone the immunity to say any personally insulting thing they care to say. And context makes a difference, as it did in this case.
WMOAT started as a genuinely funny joke on the day Dieter and I were announced, with words to the effect that when Professor Axelwolf is grading the hot babes start out as an A+ and everyone else starts out as a a D- until they prove otherwise. Somehow, over the next 17 days, the tone of WMOAT morphed into something that was a bit more pointed and was used as a way to express your minor disagreements with things we said and did However, we were not bothered by it, because it was mostly communicated as humor.
The post you were suspended for came in the middle of a serious discussion about whether another forum member's joke qualified as hate speech, and in which a moderator was explaining/defending our position. Your post - stating that the current moderators suck more than the person who was prosecuting us for not recognizing hate speech - was poorly timed and placed if it was purely intended as humor. To me, it came across as intended to influence our final decision in a serious matter using words that were insulting.
I recognize you as a senior and highly valued member of the forum. And I'm sure I have sunk to WMOAT on your list. No prob, let's move forward.
Quote: gordonm888However, we were not bothered by it, because it was mostly communicated as humor.
Most of the insults I've read here are are humorous to some extent.
Are members permitted to insult each other, as long as they claim the insult was meant to be funny?
Quote: AxelWolfDieter says many things that are hard to understand.
Touché.
(That's a fencing term from the French language, which means "I admit, you scored a point there.")
Quote: coachbelly
Are members permitted to insult each other, as long as they claim the insult was meant to be funny?
Quote: Forum Rules
Absolutely no personal insults.
Quote: Forum RulesThe punishment for violating these rules will be meted out on a case by case basis.
Do I pre-approve personal insults or any other rule violation?
Similarly, if a poster is obese and I call her "fat" would that be a violation?
In both instances the word used is apt and truthful.
Quote: MrVIf someone has only one eye and I call them "one eyed" would that be a violation"
Similarly, if a poster is obese and I call her "fat" would that be a violation?
In both instances the word used is apt and truthful.
We have been over this a few times.
Any truthfulness does not negate the insult.
1.) Wizard's listing should be updated to resolved.
2.) MDawg is scheduled to be unbanned today.
Quote: Mission146Helpful Reminders:
1.) Wizard's listing should be updated to resolved.
2.) MDawg is scheduled to be unbanned today.
If you want the job, you'll need to work on your typing.
Quote: billryanThis forum already has its Eddie Haskell. Do you really think it needs a second?
Fictional character. Google not useful for conveying your meaning to me.
Quote: Mission146Fictional character. Google not useful for conveying your meaning to me.
Mr. Smithers might be more to your generation.
Quote: AZDuffmanMr. Smithers might be more to your generation.
I know who the character is immediately, but I probably haven't watched The Simpsons since I was ten.
I don't want to hazard a guess here as to which forum member Bill Ryan refers as being the Eddie Haskell of WOV, but I don't think Mission146 is Eddie Haskell like at all. If he has something to say that is controversial or unpopular he will say it, and not hold back. In short, I don't believe that Mission146 is known whatsoever for insincere sycophancy.
Quote: MDawgEddie Haskell is known for insincere sycophancy. For example, when he would inveigle Beaver's mom with constant flattery such as, "That's a lovely dress you're wearing, Mrs. Cleaver" to curry favor with his friends' parents, mostly so that he could appear like a good little boy while at the same time constantly being up to good when no parents were around.
I don't want to hazard a guess here as to which forum member Bill Ryan refers as being the Eddie Haskell of WOV, but I don't think Mission146 is Eddie Haskell like at all. If he has something to say that is controversial or unpopular he will say it, and not hold back. In short, I don't believe that Mission146 is known whatsoever for insincere sycophancy.
Oh, that's not what I was doing at all, in this case. You got banned as a direct result of a conversation with me, so I simply wanted to point out that you were due to be unbanned. I'd prefer nobody be able to advance the notion that committing a violation against me will result in any unwarranted delays in one's sentence coming to a conclusion. More than that, I didn't know if the Moderators were all necessarily aware of the length of your ban as, I believe (but might be wrong) that it was decided by Wizard. My pointing this out was really more of a fairness gesture to you than it was butt kissing the Mods.
I'm definitely insincere from time to time, but not in a sycophantic way...at least, not as relates the forum. Thank you for your acknowledgment of that!
I'm not giving the current Moderation staff carte blanche to disclose any confidential PM's, but they'll even tell anyone that I have been fiercely critical of many of their decisions and (privately) do not hold back in expressing my occasional displeasure.
Quote: Mission146I'd prefer nobody be able to advance the notion that committing a violation against me will result in any unwarranted delays in one's sentence coming to a conclusion. More than that, I didn't know if the Moderators were all necessarily aware of the length of your ban
No offense intended to you or MDawg; I just hadn't gotten coffee and checked the list yet today.
Quote: DieterNo offense intended to you or MDawg; I just hadn't gotten coffee and checked the list yet today.
I don't blame you. When I was an Admin here, it always took a not insubstantial amount of coffee to prepare me for my first look of the day.
Quote: Mission146I don't blame you. When I was an Admin here, it always took a not insubstantial amount of coffee to prepare me for my first look of the day.
I haven't yet decided whether I need a stimulant or a sedative.
As recommended by experts, you should always mix the two.Quote: gordonm888I haven't yet decided whether I need a stimulant or a sedative.
Quote: AxelWolfAs recommended by experts, you should always mix the two.
[Citation needed]
(really, I have no idea)
All My drug dealers (obvious experts) all asked that I not quote them.Quote: Dieter[Citation needed]
Here is a list of possible drug experts, some of who may have suggested to themselves they should always mix the two. https://www.drugs.com/celebrity_deaths.html
