Discussion III about the Suspension List
Quote: WizardQuote: billryanWhen was the last time I complained about the forum management? I've completely embraced it. What complaint have I made over and over? As everything here is out front and open, it should be easy to copy my complaining about something over and over? Your position on free speech seems to be everyone has it, but me.
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Your sarcasm doesn't fool me. Here is the post you last got suspended for.Quote:I hate math and think it sucks. Personally, I am thrilled that the forum has gotten away from being strictly math and fact-based and is drifting into fantasy. I'm hoping we expand into cosplay but that might be too soon. Viva La Forum!!!!!!
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And.....
Quote: kewljI am going to express an opinion. I hope it doesn't get me in trouble.
Why can't there be respectful discussion (in a thread entitled discussion no less) of the forum rules, involving suggestions and yes even complaints? In private discussion with Mike over the years, I can remember a couple times that he responded with something like, yeah you make a good point. And there have been times he explained his reasoning and although I probably didn't like it, maybe it helped me see where he was coming from and understand a little better.
So why can't that happen publicly as well. Why can't there be some input from the membership? Make us feel like part of the forum family? It won't undermine Wizard or any other mods. In the end, Wizard will still be "the big cheeze" and what he says ultimately goes. But I don't know why that can't mean there can't be some open and respectful discussion and input, in an effort to make the forum better and more enjoyable for all.
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That post was perfectly fine. I do not mind constructive advice. However, I do not like sarcasm and general statements like "this forum sucks."
I am not going to bend more than one degree on my position respecting free speech. It's easy to respect free speech as long as you agree with it. However, truly respecting it means allowing speech you disagree with or even loathe the one speaking it.
What am I supposed to do with posters who claim ridiculous things like witnessing 18 yo's in a row, win 99% of sessions, witnessed 60 Player wins in a row in baccarat, or 60 wins in a row in blackjack? Note that these are hypothetical examples.
Said posters will still enjoy the right of personal insult protection. I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't enforce that rule. I already hide posts where ridiculous claims are the only purpose of said thread. As a reminder, everybody is entitled to disagree, nicely, with such claims.
Ultimately, I think the world would be a better place if we learned to live and respect those we disagree with, as opposed to embracing a mob mentality of driving out those we don't like.
Quote: WizardQuote: kewljI am going to express an opinion. I hope it doesn't get me in trouble.
Why can't there be respectful discussion (in a thread entitled discussion no less) of the forum rules, involving suggestions and yes even complaints? In private discussion with Mike over the years, I can remember a couple times that he responded with something like, yeah you make a good point. And there have been times he explained his reasoning and although I probably didn't like it, maybe it helped me see where he was coming from and understand a little better.
So why can't that happen publicly as well. Why can't there be some
That post was perfectly fine. I do not mind constructive advice. However, I do not like sarcasm and general statements like "this forum sucks."
I am not going to bend more than one degree on my position respecting free speech. It's easy to respect free speech as long as you agree with it. However, truly respecting it means allowing speech you disagree with or even loathe the one speaking it. .......
.....Ultimately, I think the world would be a better place if we learned to live and respect those we disagree with, as opposed to embracing a mob mentality of driving out those we don't like.
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I'm not sure how you can square you saying the world would be better if we learned to live and respect those we disagree with and then you turn around and suspend me for a month for disagreeing with you. This is a thread designed to discuss suspensions so let's have a discussion.
Quote: Wizard
What am I supposed to do with posters who claim ridiculous things like witnessing 18 yo's in a row, win 99% of sessions, witnessed 60 Player wins in a row in baccarat, or 60 wins in a row in blackjack? Note that these are hypothetical examples.
What are you supposed to do? I don't honestly know.
But you know how I feel about it. The math HAS got to matter! and especially on a forum started by YOU, one of the most respected gambling math guys and that still bears your name or what you are known by. To have these claims DOMINATE this forum is sac religious.
And I mean that sincerely. It is showing a lack of respect to you. There has got to be a way to allow some pushback, if not by you, by other real players that live by the mathematics. And particularly when we aren't talking about some occasional claim by an occasional player or member, but repeated claims by a small number of members that dominate the forum.
You can claim the Moon is cheese.
As long as you provide the evidence.
In fact there ought to in something in the sign up process. “On this site, you can claim anything is true as long as you provide evidence,”
Quote: rxwineI’m all for different opinions on the forum without driving people out.
You can claim the Moon is cheese.
As long as you provide the evidence.
In fact there ought to in something in the sign up process. “On this site, you can claim anything is true as long as you provide evidence,”
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I disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares?
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineI’m all for different opinions on the forum without driving people out.
You can claim the Moon is cheese.
As long as you provide the evidence.
In fact there ought to in something in the sign up process. “On this site, you can claim anything is true as long as you provide evidence,”
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I disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares.
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You want 4chan style site then. Not me.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineI’m all for different opinions on the forum without driving people out.
You can claim the Moon is cheese.
As long as you provide the evidence.
In fact there ought to in something in the sign up process. “On this site, you can claim anything is true as long as you provide evidence,”
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I disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares?
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What are words worth?
What are words worth? Words
Words in papers, words in books
Words on TV, words for crooks
Words of comfort, words of peace
Words to make the fighting cease
Words to tell you what to do
Words are working hard for you
Eat your words but don't go hungry
Words have always nearly hung me
What are words worth?
What are words worth? Words
Words of nuance, words of skill
And words of romance are a thrill
Words are stupid, words are fun
Words can put you on the run
Oscar Wilde
If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.
George Orwell.
Quote: DRichI disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares?]
That might be fine for a wild west board like craigslist rants and raves but should that be the case here?
I think not.
This board is firmly rooted in math, or at least it used to be, and as such the criteria for acceptance is that a claim should be provable by objective criteria,.
This is especially so if a claim is so wide of the norm, so unbelievable on its face that the reader's first thought is "That's a bunch of B.S."
I suppose that absent proof of a claim the correct moderation response would be to allow the initial claim to stand but then warn the claimant that his claim is so far wide of the usual mark that absent proof he / she is prohibited from discussing or advancing the claim further.
Personally I'd throw such a claimant off the ship but then again that's the kind of guy I am; the Wiz seems to be a bit more tolerant.
Quote: MrVQuote: DRichI disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares?]
That might be fine for a wild west board like craigslist rants and raves but should that be the case here?
I think not.
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If people want more crap, that's easy enough. Though crap is normally what you want going out your backside, then flush.
Quote: billryanI'm not sure how you can square you saying the world would be better if we learned to live and respect those we disagree with and then you turn around and suspend me for a month for disagreeing with you. This is a thread designed to discuss suspensions so let's have a discussion.
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As I have said before, if you keep repeating the same complaint for 100 times, it becomes trolling. I know how you feel. It's time to let it go and move on.
Quote: WizardQuote: billryanI'm not sure how you can square you saying the world would be better if we learned to live and respect those we disagree with and then you turn around and suspend me for a month for disagreeing with you. This is a thread designed to discuss suspensions so let's have a discussion.
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As I have said before, if you keep repeating the same complaint for 100 times, it becomes trolling. I know how you feel. It's time to let it go and move on.
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It's hard to have a discussion when one side just keeps saying the others point of view is nothing but complaints. Not much point in even attempting to find common ground.
Quote: MrVQuote: DRichI disagree 100%. I can claim anything I want and don't have to provide facts. You can believe me or not, who cares?]
That might be fine for a wild west board like craigslist rants and raves but should that be the case here?
I think not.
This board is firmly rooted in math, or at least it used to be, and as such the criteria for acceptance is that a claim should be provable by objective criteria,.
This is especially so if a claim is so wide of the norm, so unbelievable on its face that the reader's first thought is "That's a bunch of B.S."
I suppose that absent proof of a claim the correct moderation response would be to allow the initial claim to stand but then warn the claimant that his claim is so far wide of the usual mark that absent proof he / she is prohibited from discussing or advancing the claim further.
Personally I'd throw such a claimant off the ship but then again that's the kind of guy I am; the Wiz seems to be a bit more tolerant.
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My thought is that I can post anything that I want and if you don't believe me you are welcome to dispute it. If you can prove what I am saying is incorrect, that is great. If not, your post would be even more worthless than mine.
personal insult posted by kewlj
The moderators do not want to see any further continuation of this (or any other) dispute between kewlj and AlanMendelson.
Quote: JoemanToo bad you had to close the thread. There were some interesting posts in there before the "firestorm" started.
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Do you think it could continue to be interesting without being inflammatory?
Quote: DieterQuote: JoemanToo bad you had to close the thread. There were some interesting posts in there before the "firestorm" started.
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Do you think it could continue to be interesting without being inflammatory?
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You could split the thread and have the offending posts immediately closed.
Quote: DeMangoQuote: DieterQuote: JoemanToo bad you had to close the thread. There were some interesting posts in there before the "firestorm" started.
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Do you think it could continue to be interesting without being inflammatory?
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You could split the thread and have the offending posts immediately closed.
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Maybe when I get back to a computer. Some administrivia is nontrivial with a limited technology assortment.
Quote: DieterQuote: DeMangoQuote: DieterQuote: JoemanToo bad you had to close the thread. There were some interesting posts in there before the "firestorm" started.
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Do you think it could continue to be interesting without being inflammatory?
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You could split the thread and have the offending posts immediately closed.
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Maybe when I get back to a computer. Some administrivia is nontrivial with a limited technology assortment.
That's why they pay you the big bucks, no?
Quote: billryan
That's why they pay you the big bucks, no?
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All current US banknotes are the same size and weight; none are bigger than others.
Quote: gordonm888kewlj is suspended 7 days for this post which was clearly personal and insulting:
If a claim is embarrassing but based on seemingly viable information, i.e. has a nugget of truth, how then should it be deemed "insulting?"
For example, if a woman poster posts a picture of herself in a bathing suit and she is clearly obese, why would a comment "She's fat" lead to a suspension?
Isn't truth a defense?
When people pitch a soft one why should we be penalized by hitting it out of the park?
Quote: DieterQuote: billryan
That's why they pay you the big bucks, no?
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All current US banknotes are the same size and weight; none are bigger than others.
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Keep it up and they might add another zero to your salary.
I was thinking the same thing.Quote: DeMangoQuote: DieterDo you think it could continue to be interesting without being inflammatory?
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You could split the thread and have the offending posts immediately closed.
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At the front.Quote: billryanQuote: DieterQuote: billryan
That's why they pay you the big bucks, no?
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All current US banknotes are the same size and weight; none are bigger than others.
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Keep it up and they might add another zero to your salary.
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I support reopening it with a split of the KJ/Alan spat, which can be closed. I'm just a bit too busy to do it right now.Quote: Mission146I can't imagine a reason not to reopen it, but that's just my opinion.
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Quote: OnceDearAt the front.Quote: billryanQuote: DieterQuote: billryan
That's why they pay you the big bucks, no?
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All current US banknotes are the same size and weight; none are bigger than others.
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Keep it up and they might add another zero to your salary.
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That'd be like tripling the pay. Again.
Quote: MrVQuote: gordonm888kewlj is suspended 7 days for this post which was clearly personal and insulting:
If a claim is embarrassing but based on seemingly viable information, i.e. has a nugget of truth, how then should it be deemed "insulting?"
For example, if a woman poster posts a picture of herself in a bathing suit and she is clearly obese, why would a comment "She's fat" lead to a suspension?
Isn't truth a defense?
When people pitch a soft one why should we be penalized by hitting it out of the park?
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So if you walk up.to an obese person and tell them to their face they are fat you expect the reply to be "I'm not insulted, it's the truth."
You do that often and get that reply?
Quote: darkozQuote: MrVQuote: gordonm888kewlj is suspended 7 days for this post which was clearly personal and insulting:
If a claim is embarrassing but based on seemingly viable information, i.e. has a nugget of truth, how then should it be deemed "insulting?"
For example, if a woman poster posts a picture of herself in a bathing suit and she is clearly obese, why would a comment "She's fat" lead to a suspension?
Isn't truth a defense?
When people pitch a soft one why should we be penalized by hitting it out of the park?
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So if you walk up.to an obese person and tell them to their face they are fat you expect the reply to be "I'm not insulted, it's the truth."
You do that often and get that reply?
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This was a VERY difficult part of my job. I’d have an obese person ask me about anesthesia risks in someone ‘healthy’ like himself, and I’d have to figure out how best to tell them the extra 100 pounds they are carrying puts him in a category he doesn’t want to be in.
Quote: darkoz
So if you walk up.to an obese person and tell them to their face they are fat you expect the reply to be "I'm not insulted, it's the truth."
What are you talking about, "walking up to a person."
Think in context, 'K?
Quote: MrVQuote: darkoz
So if you walk up.to an obese person and tell them to their face they are fat you expect the reply to be "I'm not insulted, it's the truth."
What are you talking about, "walking up to a person."
Think in context, 'K?
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Truth is not a defense to an insult. Think in context, ‘K?
With that, I would think the three defining characteristics of whether or not something is an insult are:
1.) Verbiage.
2.) Context of the conversation. (Are the two people friends?)
3.) Tone. (To whatever extent a tone can be read into a statement)
Anyway, I didn't inspect the verbiage of KewlJ's post closely enough to determine whether or not I would have called it an insult, though I should imagine that, if reported, KewlJ made the post with no real doubt that he could be Suspended.
Quote: Mission146Isn't an insult kind of about the verbiage that gets used? I think the example question was calling someone, "Fat," if they are obese, so I could see where that is an insult. However, would it still be an insult if someone said, in a neutral tone, "Your BMI is significantly greater than the average for your height."?
With that, I would think the three defining characteristics of whether or not something is an insult are:
1.) Verbiage.
2.) Context of the conversation. (Are the two people friends?)
3.) Tone. (To whatever extent a tone can be read into a statement)
Anyway, I didn't inspect the verbiage of KewlJ's post closely enough to determine whether or not I would have called it an insult, though I should imagine that, if reported, KewlJ made the post with no real doubt that he could be Suspended.
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I think you've made good points. Friendly banter in one context is insult in another.
I use a hypothetical random drunk guy in a bar as a litmus test. If there's a decent chance he'll try to punch me if I said something to him, that something is probably an insult. (This is not the official standard used here, but the Venn diagram of results has a lot of overlap.)
At least I'm above average.
Quote: DieterQuote: Mission146Isn't an insult kind of about the verbiage that gets used? I think the example question was calling someone, "Fat," if they are obese, so I could see where that is an insult. However, would it still be an insult if someone said, in a neutral tone, "Your BMI is significantly greater than the average for your height."?
With that, I would think the three defining characteristics of whether or not something is an insult are:
1.) Verbiage.
2.) Context of the conversation. (Are the two people friends?)
3.) Tone. (To whatever extent a tone can be read into a statement)
Anyway, I didn't inspect the verbiage of KewlJ's post closely enough to determine whether or not I would have called it an insult, though I should imagine that, if reported, KewlJ made the post with no real doubt that he could be Suspended.
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I think you've made good points. Friendly banter in one context is insult in another.
I use a hypothetical random drunk guy in a bar as a litmus test. If there's a decent chance he'll try to punch me if I said something to him, that something is probably an insult. (This is not the official standard used here, but the Venn diagram of results has a lot of overlap.)
At least I'm above average.
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I suspect that a 6'3 300 pounder can say a lot more to that bar drunk without getting punched than a 5'3 140 pound man so I'm not sure your litmus test works.
Quote: billryanQuote: DieterQuote: Mission146Isn't an insult kind of about the verbiage that gets used? I think the example question was calling someone, "Fat," if they are obese, so I could see where that is an insult. However, would it still be an insult if someone said, in a neutral tone, "Your BMI is significantly greater than the average for your height."?
With that, I would think the three defining characteristics of whether or not something is an insult are:
1.) Verbiage.
2.) Context of the conversation. (Are the two people friends?)
3.) Tone. (To whatever extent a tone can be read into a statement)
Anyway, I didn't inspect the verbiage of KewlJ's post closely enough to determine whether or not I would have called it an insult, though I should imagine that, if reported, KewlJ made the post with no real doubt that he could be Suspended.
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I think you've made good points. Friendly banter in one context is insult in another.
I use a hypothetical random drunk guy in a bar as a litmus test. If there's a decent chance he'll try to punch me if I said something to him, that something is probably an insult. (This is not the official standard used here, but the Venn diagram of results has a lot of overlap.)
At least I'm above average.
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I suspect that a 6'3 300 pounder can say a lot more to that bar drunk without getting punched than a 5'3 140 pound man so I'm not sure your litmus test works.
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If my jolly old self can't get away with it (saying it nicely), what chance would a little guy have?
Quote: rxwineI’d like to see a little more creativity. Like the suspended person gets an avatar of a face with a ball gag. Or if a warning all their posts only render in the smallest font for a day.
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I think OnceDear paints vivid seascapes, occasionally incorporating mermaids.
I'm more fond of senryu than quatrain, and some day I'm sure I'll incorporate poetry into a verdict and get cussed out for it.
Then I'll end up tinytexted.
Duplicate member account, Bullying, etc.
Quote: Rule 12This includes starting a thread only the for purpose of attacking another member.
Quote: rxwineI’d like to see a little more creativity. Like the suspended person gets an avatar of a face with a ball gag.
Or have their avatar be photoshopped over the body of the bad boy tied onto the dunking stool shown below.
The punishment must fit the crime, and the scofflaws who break the rules here really, really need to be seriously punished, embarrassed, and chastised; do it for their own good.
Quote: DeMangoFree KewlJ!!!!!
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I believe the incarceration period elapses on the Thirteenth of January, which does not appear to be this day.
In making this post
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36647-the-adventures-of-mdawg-ii/8/#post839565
KewlJ has simply restated some of the SAME terrible things he has been saying about the Wizard every week now, sometimes every day even, for years.
I was suspended from this forum for up to months at a time in the past and yet you won’t find even one post where I have put down any moderator of this forum, or the Wizard, during any of my suspensions.
This KewlJ post just isn’t the way to behave.
Kewlj should be nuked!
Not even for what he did, but for his own good. If he spends less time at forums he'll probably be better able to let go of whatever deep seated animosity he has towards MDawg and the Wizard.
He also tripled down here at WOV on this false claim that MDawg doxxed him.
Quote: MDawgMy understanding is that KewlJ was nuked from these forums for something really exceptionally outrageous he did or posted outside of WOV.
In making this post
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/36647-the-adventures-of-mdawg-ii/8/#post839565
KewlJ has simply restated some of the SAME terrible things he has been saying about the Wizard every week now, sometimes every day even, for years.
I was suspended from this forum for up to months at a time in the past and yet you won’t find even one post where I have put down any moderator of this forum, or the Wizard, during any of my suspensions.
This KewlJ post just isn’t the way to behave.
Kewlj should be nuked!
Not even for what he did, but for his own good. If he spends less time at forums he'll probably be better able to let go of whatever deep seated animosity he has towards MDawg and the Wizard.
He also tripled down here at WOV on this false claim that MDawg doxxed him.
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As well as the absolute and clearly FALSE accusations against MDawg that I am a sock puppet created and maintained by MDawg.
I have no animosity towards Wizard. I don't like that he agreed not to express his opinion about your play when people here look to him as the expert and expect his opinion on such a matter.
Any animosity towards you is only in that I don't like claims that defy math and reality when the person's whole agenda is to mislead members of the forum and community.
If you are allowed to make claims about your winning, I am allowed to make claims about who I believe doxxed me. And I have laid out my claims and evidence to several moderators, who both stated it was pretty compelling evidence. While it may not rise to the level of "proof" in a court of law, that has never been the standard here. Anyone reasonable minded person will look at the evidence provided and know that it was you.
As for nuking, while I don't advocate anyone being nuked, including you, there is a case to be made that you have driven quite a number of good, legitimate players and members from this forum. Personally, I think undermining this forum has been your agenda all along.
This is Wizard of Vegas, a forum started by The Wizard, Michael Shackleford. There has always been a standard of math and there HAS to be a standard here of math and reality. Otherwise, it is just another troll forum. Math and reality is what distinguishes this forum from the other garbage forums.
