Discussion II about the Suspension List

Quote: Mission146

Let me see if I understand this:

Tringlomane complained about being offended by a post by AZDuffman, to which both Babs and I responded stating that the intent was not to offend.

However, BBB realized that there was clear opportunity for AZD to explain himself and apologize to Tringlomane on the grounds that Tringlomane took offense to his post, but AZD did not take that option. At least, not directly.

My initial post on the matter was just the first two paragraphs of the post that is currently there, explaining why I did not see an insult there. I saw that Babs had fired off a post before me issuing a three-day Suspension to AZD for the causes she stated. While it is pretty clear that I would not have issued a Suspension, I saw here reasoning and agreed with it enough (it's only three days, anyway) not to challenge the Suspension behind the scenes.

Basically, not a Suspension I would have made, but also not one that I, per se, disagreed with. I wasn't really considering how Tringlomane took it, just whether or not I saw an insult there. (I didn't.)

Now, despite the fact that AZD was Suspended, we have Tringlomane flying off the handle and Suspending himself for a month because he was accused of Trolling by RS as well as the fact that several others disagreed with the Suspension over what us Mods already acknowledged wasn't meant as an insult.

So, now Tring has apparently Self-Suspended until March 1st, wonderful. Oh well, his choice.

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to also ask RS to provide whatever prove he has to back up his assertion that Tring/Terapined were Trolling, in his opinion. I don't know that it's an Insult, but making unsubstantiated accusations would definitely qualify as Trolling/Bullying in its own right, so I'm going to give RS 48 hours to post up whatever his, "Proof," is, from the time this post goes up.

I'm not going to require that I actually agree with RS about it, just that there actually be something that could reasonably lead RS to saying that.

As far as the, "Loose," Moderation of that thread, I still recuse myself from Moderating that thread (even though I've been participating lately) unless I see something really blatant.

Quote: darkoz

Isnt calling someone a troll regardless of whether its true or not considered a personal insult?

Quote:

And saying someone is trolling is the equivalent of calling someone a troll

Quote:

E.g. "your wife is prostituting"
Not a personal insult? I didnt say your "wife is a prostitute, Just that your wife was prostituting?"

Quote: Mission146

He didn't call him a Troll, he accused him of Trolling on one or more specific instances. Calling him a Troll, categorically, would be an insult, yes.



I might agree with that, but he says there is proof, so he is clearly saying that the two were Trolling in a particular instance.



I think I made it pretty clear that I want to see what this, "Proof," is. Hypothetically, if someone had a wife and I had evidence of her prostituting, it would be pretty tough to take the statement, "She was prostituting in this instance," as an insult.

Quote: darkoz

Call me short and fat. Its true but i am still insulted. Is that the basis for insults being tolerated? They must be truthful insults?

Quote: Mission146

I'm not calling her a prostitute in the hypothetical, I'm saying that she, "Was prostituting." The basis of a statement being truthful is that it be truthful. I'm not even looking at a potential infraction as Personal Insult, I'm saying that accusing someone of, 'Trolling,' and saying that you have proof (if you don't) is itself Trolling/Bullying.

Someone may come along and overrule me, but I don't think there is an argument for Personal Insult anywhere in that post. Trolling/Bullying, maybe.

Besides, haven't there been enough Suspensions in the last two weeks? I thought everyone wanted us to err on the side of lenience?

Quote: darkoz

Both lenience and consistency i believe

Quote: Nathan

I got a message saying, "You have been permanently banned, the date this ban will lift is never." I had been a respectful user, I had always been nice to other posters and I was shocked that I got permanently banned. Maybe the "Favorite Posters?" May have went a bit too far but it was started with good intentions.

Quote: darkoz

I disagree. The substance of an insult is not whether it is truthful

Call me short and fat. Its true but i am still insulted. Is that the basis for insults being tolerated? They must be truthful insults?

Quote: MrV

You veered off the straight and narrow and onto the paved section of the highway to hell.

So much for "good intentions."

Quote: RS

Mission, if I don't have the "proof" within the 48 hours, but I find it after that (say I find it at 72 hours), will the suspension be over-turned, or if I find it a week or two later, would it be over-turned (and expunged from my record)? Or is it a due-or-die scenario?

Quote: Nathan

When I said,"Good intentions, " I made the "Favorite Posters," thread to talk about posters that brought good things to the website. It was meant to be a praise thread. In hindsight, my logical brain whispered to me before pressing "Send" "Maybe a "Favorite Posters?" Thread could be seen in a bad way! As if you are asking posters to alienate other posters. Are you really sure you should be starting this thread?" I stupidly told my logical brain, "Shut up! This won't be seen in a bad way because it's a praise thread! It will be seen in a good way!" It got like 2 replies and then deleted like 30 minutes later and I got the "Permanently banned," message. Oops.

Quote: Mission146

How am I not being consistent? He made a statement about something someone was doing and claimed to have evidence. If he had outright said, "You're a Troll," boom, Suspension, Personal Insult. He didn't do that. Therefore, I am giving him the opportunity to prove that his accusation has merit. If he does not, or he fails to respond within 48 hours, then I will issue a Suspension under Trolling/Bullying in accordance to wherever he is in the Martingale.

Are we going to argue next that I am being inconsistent because of my political views...even though I'm farther to the Left than most of the Forum and would consider RS as leaning Right, based on his posts?

Quote: RS

My understanding is this forum has always been moderated by a "technicality POV", as per Wizard's "request" or whatever. Not that I agree with it, but it is what it is (his place, his rules). But now all of a sudden it's no longer based on technicalities? Saying someone is trolling has never been suspend-able-worthy. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I will comply (as best I can) with acquiring this proof, under duress. This is going to be damn near impossible to find the right posts within 48 hours as of ~9:45am today, given The Grand Superb Owl Soiree of '018 is nearly under way.....and I don't know which of 2 threads I need to look in (hint: they're long AF), don't remember when this happened, I don't remember the exact phrasing that was used, and this forum's search function isn't super great (the last straw to making it super hard to find).


Mission, if I don't have the "proof" within the 48 hours, but I find it after that (say I find it at 72 hours), will the suspension be over-turned, or if I find it a week or two later, would it be over-turned (and expunged from my record)? Or is it a due-or-die scenario?

Quote: MaxPen

Quote: RS

My understanding is this forum has always been moderated by a "technicality POV", as per Wizard's "request" or whatever. Not that I agree with it, but it is what it is (his place, his rules). But now all of a sudden it's no longer based on technicalities? Saying someone is trolling has never been suspend-able-worthy. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I will comply (as best I can) with acquiring this proof, under duress. This is going to be damn near impossible to find the right posts within 48 hours as of ~9:45am today, given The Grand Superb Owl Soiree of '018 is nearly under way.....and I don't know which of 2 threads I need to look in (hint: they're long AF), don't remember when this happened, I don't remember the exact phrasing that was used, and this forum's search function isn't super great (the last straw to making it super hard to find).


Mission, if I don't have the "proof" within the 48 hours, but I find it after that (say I find it at 72 hours), will the suspension be over-turned, or if I find it a week or two later, would it be over-turned (and expunged from my record)? Or is it a due-or-die scenario?

I would just take the suspension and acknowledge the ineptitude.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MaxPen

Quote: RS

My understanding is this forum has always been moderated by a "technicality POV", as per Wizard's "request" or whatever. Not that I agree with it, but it is what it is (his place, his rules). But now all of a sudden it's no longer based on technicalities? Saying someone is trolling has never been suspend-able-worthy. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I will comply (as best I can) with acquiring this proof, under duress. This is going to be damn near impossible to find the right posts within 48 hours as of ~9:45am today, given The Grand Superb Owl Soiree of '018 is nearly under way.....and I don't know which of 2 threads I need to look in (hint: they're long AF), don't remember when this happened, I don't remember the exact phrasing that was used, and this forum's search function isn't super great (the last straw to making it super hard to find).


Mission, if I don't have the "proof" within the 48 hours, but I find it after that (say I find it at 72 hours), will the suspension be over-turned, or if I find it a week or two later, would it be over-turned (and expunged from my record)? Or is it a due-or-die scenario?

I would just take the suspension and acknowledge the ineptitude.

I dont see AP"s on here taking that attitude. Being banned is anathema to an AP and something fought almost intuitively. Part of our training/experience

Quote: darkoz

Im not trying to upset you. I know being a mod right now is proving a bit touchy. Im not the only poster who has felt some inconsistency with bans in the past. I just was saying that is what the forum is looking for. Both leniency and consistency.

Quote:

Without consistency you will have more upset as people say "hey i got banned for this and he didnt". I meant it constructively

Quote:

As for politics on here that forum is well almost a different animal with a lot of leeway being given and perhaps being too lenient but with everyone blaming partisanship it may have tp be. I see you recently joined in the trump thread after saying you purposefully were staying away and you have been sucked into the back and forth. I enjoy your posts there (altho sometimes they are i dare say too long even for me) but in general we are on the same page politically

Quote: Mission146

Anyway, I think the key is just to remember that we should be friends first and people who disagree politically second.

Quote: gamerfreak

Quote: boymimbo

Believe it or not, George isn't at home. Please leave a message at the beep.

Quote: AxelWolf

You guys have to get better friends.

Quote: gamerfreak

Where could he beeeeee?If I’m being completely honest, I never heard the term myself.

Quote: gamerfreak

If I’m being completely honest

Quote: Mission146

If AZD doesn't mind being used as an example, and hopefully he doesn't, I'll use him. It's no secret that he and I have met in person, at one of the WoV East deals, and we got along fairly well. Politically speaking, I imagine we share...and this is a liberal estimate...5-20% of our views. I imagine we fundamentally disagree with all other political views. The point is, we disagree, and yet we're talking about having coffee together at the next available opportunity.

I think many of the problems in that thread would be eliminated if, before posting, we all kept in mind that we would probably get along quite well in person. If we keep that in mind, before anything else, I think you would have people less likely to say anything that could be perceived as offensive, as well as people less likely take offense to anything along those lines that may be said. If people are gratified in seeing one another banned, I also think that would stop.

Anyway, I think the key is just to remember that we should be friends first and people who disagree politically second.

Quote: tringlomane

Maybe I'll find some piece of crap min wage job in the interim since I am one of those uncounted unemployed and can't probably find anything better with a PhD! The Republican way!

Quote: AZDuffman

Of course you can use me as an example. As long as I can use your post here as the basis for my reply, you may always use me as an example.

Circling back to Mission's comment of "we all kept in mind that we would probably get along quite well in person." What we have in our current society is too many people with a huge case of "Trump Derangement Syndrome." Too many people blaming Trump and the Republicans for their lack of success in life. Consider:

Quote:

I seriously do not get this point of view. Occasionally, there is a narrow policy from one party that puts someone out of work. I am an example. If a law or regulation stops drilling, my career prospects dry up. Obama's re-election caused a mass layoff at a place I worked. I was quitting anyhow, it was a white collar sweat shop. But 50+ other people lost their jobs that day. You can be bitter, but that helps nothing. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again.

Quote: Mission146

I'll leave the larger paragraph for Babs if she chooses to respond to it. Like I said, I don't disagree with the ban, per se, but I would not personally have banned for that. We were both clearly composing posts at the same time without knowing it, hers issuing a ban, mine saying no ban would be issued for that.

Quote:

I don't know that Trump has so much to do with it, unless there was also an, "Obama Derangement Syndrome," too, because the politics threads certainly didn't seem that much more friendly whilst he was in office.

I seriously believe it is just a matter of letting diametrically opposed viewpoints get in the way of the fact that we would probably otherwise get along. The betting system guys are a good example: They swear by their mathematically unsound systems and claim they can beat the house edge, I point out that they cannot, they get mad, I get frustrated and impatient...whatever happens, happens. On the other hand, I'd probably happily drink a beer and watch a football game with 90+% of those guys.

Quote:

I think the main difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is what, "Pick yourself up," consists of. I believe it was you or someone else who mentioned having to move back in with your parents for a bit, so we as Liberals say, "Okay, what about the people who don't have parents?" There are people out there with not so much as a couch they could crash on.

While the extents may change, very few people, "Pick themselves up," without any kind of help whatsoever. That's what I think is frustrating, sometimes, about those on the Economic Right. It occurs to me that many of those people already have a built-in familial safety net, or a net of some other kind. If you want to take it all the way back to the formative years, then you can argue that nobody has ever really done it on their own.

Quote:

Anyway, so that's what my view of the Liberal Economic agenda should be. You want to make sure that everyone at least gets some kind of chance knowing that, eventually, they will have to do it on their own. That's why I don't think slinging burgers at McDonald's, even if forty hours per week, should result in a living wage for a household of three or four people...just seems silly.

Quote: gamerfreak

If I’m being completely honest, I never heard the term myself.

Quote: Mission146

I think the main difference between a Liberal and a Conservative is what, "Pick yourself up," consists of. I believe it was you or someone else who mentioned having to move back in with your parents for a bit, so we as Liberals say, "Okay, what about the people who don't have parents?" There are people out there with not so much as a couch they could crash on.

Quote: terapined, post-1

Are you a hypocrite? [in an accusing manner]

Quote: terapined, post-2

I am asking if he is a hypocrite
I am not saying he is a hypocrite

Quote: RS

RE: My "evidence of trolling" for terapined--

Quote: AZDuffman

It is a different kind of derangement. My base statement remains, the strongly conservative thinks the liberal is misguided, the strong liberal hates the fact that they have to share the same planet as the strong conservative. Look at the college speaker thing as an example. A liberal speaks, conservative students stay home and watch TV. Ann Coulter is scheduled to speak, liberals riot and the police tell her they cannot guarantee her safety. Something is wrong here. No reasonable person can say the reactions are in the same league, not even the same sport.

Quote:

Was me, though I may not be the only one. Yes, some folks do not have family to move back in with. But I look at it this way. Somewhere in the USA is the kid with the richest and best parents. Somewhere there is the poorest with the worst parents. The rest of us fit in-between. I wish I could find where I saw it, but there is a Japanese saying. It is to the effect of, "Accept your situation and work with what you have."

Quote:

It is how Japan built itself up. Japan has near zero in natural resources. It was smashed in WWII as perhaps no nation ever was smashed. Food was so scarce that in the late-1940s the average man had a waistline of something like 24". Just 15 years after being so smashed, Tokyo hoisted the Olympics. By the early 1980s, Japan led the world in auto production as well as many other industries. Just 40 years from literally flattened to world leader. That is an entire nation.

Quote:

We currently have an over-educated class of folks who cannot seem to support themselves. Somewhere along the line people got it in their head that degree = job security for life. As if, as I joked about at my own commencement, "Hey, I thought after I got this some dude would run up and offer me a job!" I hated having to move back home, the alternative might have been bankruptcy. Hated it so much I took anything I could do to pay off debt. Learned some new skills along the way. That which does not kill us makes us stronger. To have a PhD and blame "the Republicans" for lack of career success is a nonstarter with me. Record low unemployment. Gotta be something out there.

Quote:

It is silly. Pay is based on productivity, not what one "needs." Not all jobs were made to live off of. Some folks cannot handle hearing that.

Quote: AZDuffman

Leave it in the past and move on.

Quote: RS

RE: My "evidence of trolling" for terapined--

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/28871-trumps-final-100-days/261/#post614080

That and next two posts, particularly:

Quote: terapined, post-1

Are you a hypocrite? [in an accusing manner]

In that case, basically, "It's okay as long as it's in question form, I'm just asking a question."
In the more recent case, basically, "Even though it's in question form, it's still an insult."

Quote: EvenBob

Can't do that. I'm deeply bothered for
your future wife, and you possibly
beating her. I'm contacting the authorities
in your state to have you put on the
'Never Marry' list, it's for your own good.
Potential wife beaters must be nipped in
the bud, or have your bud completely
nipped off..

Quote: terapined

Questioning somebody for being a hypocrite is nothing.
Who cares if somebody is a hypocrite

Quote: terapined

Questioning somebody for beating their wife is vile, disgusting and accusing someone of being a criminal
It is not criminal to be a hypocrite. It is criminal to beat your wife
Huge diff

Quote: Mission146

I'm going to say that RS defended his position well-enough to have not earned a Suspension.

More importantly, maybe just let the Administrators do their jobs and there would be fewer Suspensions, which is what people seem to want. If we make a Suspension without someone suggesting it, then we need to justify giving the Suspension. However, if a complaint is made about someone, then we need to be able to justify NOT giving a Suspension, if that makes any sense.

In other words, the fewer complaints and the less often people call one another out, the fewer Suspensions we will have.

Quote: Puckerbutt

Such reverence for The Word to capitalize it each and every time - like they are handed down from a Higher Power. I can only hope one day to see the stone tablets that the rules are etched upon - presumably properly stored in your garage.

Quote: Mission146

With all due respect, if you read even a handful of my posts, you'll see that is just my writing style. It has nothing to do with reverence, in informal writing, I just like to occasionally capitalize what I consider to be key words in a sentence. I think it helps them pop.

Quote: Mission146

With all due respect, if you read even a handful of my posts, you'll see that is just my writing style. It has nothing to do with reverence, in informal writing, I just like to occasionally capitalize what I consider to be key words in a sentence. I think it helps them pop.

Quote: Puckerbutt

With - It - I - I. That's all I read in your post - maybe that proves your point?