Sale of wizard of odds/vegas websites
Quote: ShineyShineYeah, no one ever got rich being a 'wage slave'. Though would top level lawyers be an exception to this? They charge by the hour don't they?
You mean not by playing black jack?
Quote: beachbumbabsThey do charge by the hour, but they don't get rich until they make partner. Then they get a piece not only of their own hourly, but of everybody else's. And they get really rich when they file a class-action, get a lot of clients, and get a percentage of everybody's settlement/judgment x 1000 or however many clients.
Yeah i guess whoever coined the term 'wage slave' probably didn't have lawyers, bankers, doctors etc. in mind.
Quote: MichaelBluejayMost doctors and lawyers never become super-rich, at least not by doctoring and lawyering. Let's say they bill $200 an hour, and they're able to bill 40 hours a week. That's only $400,000 a year. It certainly puts you in the one percent, but it's not super-rich. Annual revenue from WoO.com at its peak was higher than that.
whoa.. and the site re-design killed that?!
Quote: 100xOddswhoa.. and the site re-design killed that?!
You never know, look how much Google made with a plain page and search box.
Yeah, there is something behind it all, but that no frills design had to make a good impression.
Quote: rxwinebut that no frills design had to make a good impression.
Look at Matt Drudge. he hasn't changed his site at
all since he started it and says he won't. People
are used to it, they know how to read it fast, and
it works. There aren't enough zeros to calculate
the worth of his site. (I'm exaggerating for effect)
Quote: EvenBobLook at Matt Drudge. he hasn't changed his site at
all since he started it and says he won't. People
are used to it, they know how to read it fast, and
it works. There aren't enough zeros to calculate
the worth of his site. (I'm exaggerating for effect)
I think with the WOO site, when you're coming to look for data, you want to be able to find it fast with no hassle. Now maybe once you're on the final page that you were looking for, something loading (like an ad) is not going to bug you as much than if they are slowing you down up front before you even get there.
(don't know if that's the way to make money, but there are ways to test and compare)
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe site re-design probably had little negative impact. Keep in mind that was only a few months ago - this past spring!
oh.. so WoO revenue was already in a steep decline when the site re-design was implemented?
is that why he re-designed the site?
Quote: beachbumbabsThey do charge by the hour, but they don't get rich until they make partner. Then they get a piece not only of their own hourly, but of everybody else's. And they get really rich when they file a class-action, get a lot of clients, and get a percentage of everybody's settlement/judgment x 1000 or however many clients.
Exactly - Big Law is a ponzi scheme
Quote: aceofspadesExactly - Big Law is a ponzi scheme
Ponzi? Not quite. More like a pyramid scheme. Kinda like Amway.
Edit: just noticed DT still links from WoO. The new owner must still be unraveling the sites.
Quote: chickenmanThe links to DT are gone from the threads and the main page so it is standalone now.
Edit: just noticed DT still links from WoO. The new owner must still be unraveling the sites.
I do note that the Copyright is still in the Wizard's name. I suppose that is going to change soon too.
I miss the DT link, especially since I never bookmarked the address.
Also... who owns the WoO litter sign out on the highway?
Quote: AxiomOfChoice
I pretty much accept that the government knows everything about everyone. I don't like it but it's the world we live in.
But when we signed up for this site we put our trust in someone who was supposed to be trustworthy. The word integrity gets thrown around a lot. I guess it's not a matter of if someone has integrity, but how much. Most people would probably sell us out for $100. At least we got sold out for a couple of million!
As an advantage player, your information actually has negative value to any casino from a marketing perspective. No one would knowingly want it, much less pay for it. From a security perspective, it may have some value, but.....all of the posts on this forum are indexed by Google. If you've given your real information in public forum posts or posted pictures of yourself, then that certainly isn't Mike's fault nor would one have to pay $2.35M to get it. Finally, you have literally no right to expect that a website you use not be sold by its owner.
The main asset was the traffic generated by WOO. You information had nothing to do with the sale.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThe site re-design probably had little negative impact. Keep in mind that was only a few months ago - this past spring!
No-one knows without doing some simple A:B testing. It's the best of finding out if changes are worthwhile or not at doing X (X here being keeping people on the site, or clicking ad links). There's so many unknowns, any design company telling you that this design X is 'the best' without some evidence to show that from testing, is not worth what you are paying them.
Quote: MichaelBluejay...I was surprised by the price the Wizard got for his site...
I don't think the market value of the site was solely in the tables on the server or the design of the logo. Most of the value is in the Wizard's endorsement. New gambling sites will pay for the cache (and the little red wizard hat).
The Wizard personally endorsed, and promised to arbitrate problems with Bovada (and did arbitrate when problems were reported). Will that level of involvement continue? I note that reviews of LCB connected sites with the WoO endorsement are being promoted on the Odds site. Does the endorsement mean the Wizard has personally vetted these sites?
Quote: AyecarumbaThe Wizard personally endorsed, and promised to arbitrate problems with Bovada (and did arbitrate when problems were reported). Will that level of involvement continue? I note that reviews of LCB connected sites with the WoO endorsement are being promoted on the Odds site. Does the endorsement mean the Wizard has personally vetted these sites?
Good question. This is something that has been discussed both before and after the sale, but it is time we went public about it. You can read our updated advertising policy on the Odds site.
As you can see, we will continue to offer an endorsement to the best of casinos. So far, we continue to officially endorse three only, but others are being discussed. We also will continue our policy of offering to arbitrate with any dispute between a confirmed Wizard player and a casino we advertise.
The only change is that we will advertise some casinos that do not have the Wizard endorsement. This is done in the interests of giving the players more choices. I would characterize such casinos as good but not the best. Casinos below that level we will not promote at all.
Quote: WizardGood question. This is something that has been discussed both before and after the sale, but it is time we went public about it. You can read our updated advertising policy on the Odds site.
As you can see, we will continue to offer an endorsement to the best of casinos. So far, we continue to officially endorse three only, but others are being discussed. We also will continue our policy of offering to arbitrate with any dispute between a confirmed Wizard player and a casino we advertise.
The only change is that we will advertise some casinos that do not have the Wizard endorsement. This is done in the interests of giving the players more choices. I would characterize such casinos as good but not the best. Casinos below that level we will not promote at all.
Thanks Wizard! It is good to know that you will continue to be personally involved in the brand.
On a slightly different topic... Will the new owners be on the hook for a replacement if your highway sign should... somehow.. shall we say... go missing??
Quote: WizardGood question. This is something that has been discussed both before and after the sale, but it is time we went public about it. You can read our updated advertising policy on the Odds site.
As you can see, we will continue to offer an endorsement to the best of casinos. So far, we continue to officially endorse three only, but others are being discussed. We also will continue our policy of offering to arbitrate with any dispute between a confirmed Wizard player and a casino we advertise.
The only change is that we will advertise some casinos that do not have the Wizard endorsement. This is done in the interests of giving the players more choices. I would characterize such casinos as good but not the best. Casinos below that level we will not promote at all.
That sounds fair as long as it is clear that you do not endorse those casinos offered as a choice and it is player beware.
Quote:That sounds fair as long as it is clear that you do not endorse those casinos offered as a choice and it is player beware.
That may not be "clear."
By paying the Wiz $2.3 M and having him sign an employment contract it is certainly expected by LCB that some of his goodwill will serve to polish or elevate their brand.
I doubt that MS will have much input over what advertisers are allowed, and I am reasonably confident that there will be no written disclaimers next to a banner ad posted by Mike, saying e.g. "This is not a good site." Ain't gonna happen.
In for a penny, in for a pound.
Quote: MrVThat may not be "clear."
By paying the Wiz $2.3 M and having him sign an employment contract it is certainly expected by LCB that some of his goodwill will serve to polish or elevate their brand.
They should let him play anonymously for free, not to win anything, but to test and confirm.
Of course, that could be rigged to detect him where he wouldn't know. But ultimately, that would bring down all parties.
Anyway, the Wizard's best bet is to confirm fair games, not pretend online casinos are for making people winners. Everyone knows, "winners" is the hype of advertising, except those who don't.
Quote: MichaelBluejayLet me also publicly congratulate the Wizard!
The path getting to this point is interesting. The Wiz started his site in 1997, as a hobby, not realizing it would ever have any profit potential. A couple years later a web marketing company approached him and said they'd give the site a professional design and sell ads, and split the profits with him, and he agreed. But he saw almost no money. (My guess is that they were either cheating him or incompetent, or both.)
In 2003, tired of getting no money, the Wiz initiated a "divorce", with the Wiz keeping all the content, and the company keeping the domain name (THEwizardOfOdds.com). Needing a new domain name to put his content to restart the site, he bought WizardOfOdds.com (no "the") from its owner for $5000. (I told him at the time he was crazy, that there were endless unregistered names that I could get for $10, but he wanted WoO.com.) I'd already been working for him doing non-web stuff, and he expanded my job to doing all the tech for the site. The Wiz started selling ads himself, and immediately started making more than he'd been making with his old partners. That alone put him a bit above the U.S. median household income, but the best was yet to come.
In 2004 he put me in charge of advertising, and sales exploded. I mention this to point out that the Wizard profited handsomely from the site well before he just now sold it. So all of you happy for the Wiz "finally" reaping some rewards from his site...he started living large from the site over a solid decade ago. I remarked to the Wiz back then that it was like karma that both he and I both got huge financial windfalls from the hard work we put into our respective sites when we hadn’t even realized there was a profit potential when we started them. Without divulging any numbers, let me just say we were both rolling in it. By maybe 2005 I admitted to him that his decision to pay $5000 for the WoO.com domain name was prescient, as it really worked well for branding, and with the profit the site was turning, it was an easily justified business expense.
Around 2010 I left the site so I could focus more on my own projects. Ad sales were steady for a while after that but at some point they took a dive. The Wiz tried to get outside help but it's hard to find the right outfit: I figure about half of web marketing firms don't really know what they're doing, and maybe 75% will cheat you, or at least charge so much that there's not much profit left. (Whenever friends ask me who they should hire for web development, I always tell them there are two kinds of developers: Those who know what they're doing, and those you can actually afford.) Recently I tried to offer some suggestions for getting revenue back on track, but my impression is that he was already leaning towards just selling the site simply because that solution was both easy and profitable.
A common rule of thumb for the value of a website is two years' profits (or two years of what the new owners expect *they* can make from it). And I'll tell ya, $2.35M is way, way more than two years' of revenue even when sales were at their peak. (I probably could have grown revenues a little further, but probably not to $1.17M/year., so $2.35M + a salary seems like a good deal for the Wizard.)
Really, this deal was the best of both worlds: He got the money and he's still lording over the content. In other words, he got his cake and is eating it, too. Talk about winning. Dude.
Did you and the Wizard have a falling out? You take over and sales jump to over 400k a year. You leave and sales tank. Did the Wizard do anything to try to retain the person responsible for all that success? You didn't completely leave. You were a moderator until the Wizard demoted you in 2012.
http://www.gocomics.com/frankandernest/2014/11/01
Quote: Dochttp://www.gocomics.com/frankandernest/2014/11/01
But, how do you cheer up a billionaire?
Now it makes sense why they included this site in the purchase.
Not too bad if they just keep the ads at the bottom.
I hope any newbies to this site post questions before clicking on the ads at the bottom.
A lot of blank space on the left and right side of the web page, at least they havent filled that up.
As long as the left and right side remain blank, I'm ok with Zuga taking the bottom. I'll just not scroll down as far.
Now if he eventually takes the blank space right and left, wont be thrilled, I hate being forced to view ads when viewing a page.
The post button is awful close to clicking on an ad, not too thrilled with that. One slip of the finger and in ad land.
Quote: terapinedI see Zuga has put some ads at the bottom of the site.
actually I am glad to see it as it pretty much confirms the sale went through. Not seeing ads was making me worry maybe the deal went kaflooey.
If you use PM or the first to post on a new page it's hard to avoid the adds because its auto scrolled(or whatever you call it) to the bottom.Quote: terapinedI see Zuga has put some ads at the bottom of the site.
Now it makes sense why they included this site in the purchase.
Not too bad if they just keep the ads at the bottom.
I hope any newbies to this site post questions before clicking on the ads at the bottom.
A lot of blank space on the left and right side of the web page, at least they havent filled that up.
As long as the left and right side remain blank, I'm ok with Zuga taking the bottom. I'll just not scroll down as far.
Now if he eventually takes the blank space right and left, wont be thrilled, I hate being forced to view ads when viewing a page.
The post button is awful close to clicking on an ad, not too thrilled with that. One slip of the finger and in ad land.
Anyways, I don't really care if I see the adds or not. I agree I didn't want to see them shrinking the thread space just to cram a million adds flashing everywhere. But I think sometimes people get all up in arms for nothing. Some people hate it just because they are told they should and they jump on the hate bandwagon.
I imagine the people who hate adds the most, do so because they are afraid they might want to click them. The no soliciting signs on peoples homes usually mean, I BUY EVERYTHING, please don't tempt me, I'm weak.
Quote: AxelWolfIf you use PM or the first to post on a new page it's hard to avoid the adds because its auto scrolled(or whatever you call it) to the bottom.
Anyways, I don't really care if I see the adds or not. I agree I didn't want to see them shrinking the thread space just to cram a million adds flashing everywhere. But I think sometimes people get all up in arms for nothing. Some people hate it just because they are told they should and they jump on the hate bandwagon.
I imagine the people who hate adds the most, do so because they are afraid they might want to click them. The no soliciting signs on peoples homes usually mean, I BUY EVERYTHING, please don't tempt me, I'm weak.
I hate these ads. They cheapen the look of the site and they annoy me. I don't have a no soliciting sign, but I really hate ads. Yesterday, my Internet was out. A door to door salesman came, selling Internet. I hate door to door salesmen and told him I wasn't interested. I'm not weak, I'm cheap. And I hate a lot of things. When a guy says I love you to a girl, I imagine it means he isn't going to refer to her as a prostitute, he doesn't want to use a condom, and he wants to know how likely it is she will get pregnant. Point being, maybe we have different views.
How do you pay 2 mil to put up a gaudy ad THAT WOULD LOOK BETTER IF IT WAS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, AND NOT NEAR THE BOTTOM AND DIDN'T STATICALLY REMAIN WHENEVER YOU CHANGED SCREENS AND ACTUALLY HAD A BORDER! Makes no sense to me. Or is it just the beginning. Pretty soon, you'll get the worst ads of all. Those ones that cannot be closed or paused. And just randomly start on you. So then, you'll always have to make sure you're speaker is off. Then they'll come up with the full visual ads where you can close them, only after 30 seconds.
Just don't scroll all the way down.
Problem solved.
They aren't going away, Zuga needs to monetize his investment.
Life is change.
Quote: MrVIt's easy to not see the ads.
But I know they are there.
Quote: MrV
Just don't scroll all the way down.
I wanna see if they are gone.
Quote: MrV
Problem solved.
"Play for Real Money..." is way too high, I like to type in the middle of screen. Problem not solved.
Quote: MrV
They aren't going away, Zuga needs to monetize his investment.
I don't understand this investment at all, and I don't think you or anyone else does either. I'd like Zuga to explain it to me, and I don't mean that facetiously.
Quote: MrV
Life is change.
I hate change.
Quote: MichaelBluejayI've never considered selling any of my sites, because they're part of my identity and because I don't need the money. But the Wizard's sale has made me think that I'd sell VegasClick.com for $1 million, just to be able to say that I built a site and sold it for a million dollars. I'm not actively looking for buyers, though, and it seems unlikely someone would pay that much for it, but then again, I was surprised by the price the Wizard got for his site...
Its been interesting to watch the development of some internet sites. For a while things such as Search Optimization were largely fraudulent scams that actually damaged the website that engaged their services. I met one man who had invested his life's savings in an online store but it was all fraudulent: he basically was paying high rent in an online "mall" that few people could find and that had lousy tenants. The "mall operator" made all the money and then went on to bleed other victims to death.
An overwhelming portion of the web seems to be devoted to travel and be it travel to Las Vegas or "travel" to a strange online world of Gambling, its sensible for people to have guidebooks. As with guidebooks, branding can be important because reputation is such a vital factor in sales. Yet Guidebooks have various niche markets. Some hiking guides simply do a more accurate job of mapping. One guide to yachting in the Caribbean produces faster and more accurate charts than are available from the officials.
In the end, it does indeed seem that the one primary factor in determining success with a web site is quality. A good focus and a fairly consistent product beats hype all the time. People who prepare for a trip to Las Vegas can still lose their shirts or fail to drink sufficient water or fail to bring extra walking shoes, but in general those who prepare for their trips seem to have a better chance for enjoyment than the unprepared have.
Any casino will give a neophyte free lessons but there is value to reading the Wizard's sites rather than just relying on the obviously more biased casino dealer's advice.
Quality of content and presentation has a premium in the market place. Always Has; Always Will.
Quote: Sonuvabish
I hate change.
Yeah, I voted against Obama in 2008 as well.
Seriously, ads are a way of life. You see, the programer who works for free quit. The server host that gives sites for free has a problem this week. So we need ads to keep the site.
WoV stayed remarkably add-free for years. WOO was the money-maker and this site kind of gave it "community" and surely gave Michael more "cred" in the industry. We were also a free proofreading and idea service for him. However, we were also a cost and at some point that cost was higher than the return. So we have ads. Big deal. If they get too annoying, well there are other things in life.
I do notice them but to say they are "annoying" at this point is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps you might offer to pay say $24 a year to Zuga for a "premium" WoV site that is ad-free?
Its hard for a website to be a source of expertise in two worlds but in reality the Wizard's sites are sources for the Brick and Mortar world as well as the Online world. Also a source of information on Domestic as well as Foreign gambling. And foreign gambling is a particularly time consuming matter to discuss since in addition to travel time, it requires exploration of foreign customs and languages.
Quote: supergrassI predict the wizard will be able to buy back the site for $10k in few years.
Agreed. I'm thinking they bought them cuz everyone who comes here is an online gambler. Since no one has said a word about why the sale happened, I have to use my imagination, and that's the best I got. And I'm guessing most people don't do online gambling, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they bought his seal of approval too, which is apparently retroactive. If I didn't know better, I'd think the Wizard has endorsed them and asserted they were fair since 1997.
Quote: supergrassI predict the wizard will be able to buy back the site for $10k in few years. Then sell it again for 20m in 10 years time.
I've thought this from the beginning. Maybe not the Odds site, but this one.
I've owned/managed (owned two, managed one) multimillion dollar businesses. I think they way overpaid for the sites. This forum has very little value and it will take many, many, many years, if at all to make their money back on the Odds site. Another example of a dot com coming into loads of money with a hit business and thinking everything they touch will turn to gold.
ZCore13
once the purchase was announced I did state that we are planning to make some changes to the WOO network. We have already changed few things at WOO, and now we are testing these bonus promotions here at the WOV forum . ( that is what you are seeing at the bottom of the page ).
However, being a test and all, this might not be the final solution, however and Ill make this very clear, some sort of ads/promotions will be present from now on.
Now with that said, we do not plan on doing any drastic changes to the site. But we do need to try to monetize WOV.
The site will always be free to use, and we do not plan to introduce any membership fees ( as someone earlier mentioned ). But yes you will be seeing some promotional offers here and there.
You are in no way obligated to click on those promotional links nor to play at these online casinos. And if do not like them, then all I can say is just ignore them.
Do let me know if you have any more questions.
Cheers
Zuga
Quote: ZugaHi guys,
once the purchase was announced I did state that we are planning to make some changes to the WOO network. We have already changed few things at WOO, and now we are testing these bonus promotions here at the WOV . ( that is what you are seeing at the bottom of the page ).
However, being a test and all, this might not be the final solution, however and Ill make this very clear, some sort of ads/promotions will be present from now on.
Now with that said, we do not plan on doing any drastic changes to the site. But we do need to try to monetize WOV.
The site will always be free to use, and we do not plan to introduce any membership fees ( as someone earlier mentioned ). But yes you will be seeing some promotional offers here and there.
You are in no way obligated to click on those promotional links nor to play at these online casinos. And if do not like them, then all I can say is just ignore them.
Do let me know if you have any more questions.
Cheers
Zuga
I assume you have a way to see how many clicks are coming from this site. My guess is that you will get very few from here as most of the people on here don't play online unless they find a promo worth playing, which todays online casinos usually have rules in place to avoid abuses. I have no issue with the ads and its your money and site, however I do question like others the return you will get off this site.
Quote: Zcore13I've thought this from the beginning. Maybe not the Odds site, but this one.
I've owned/managed (owned two, managed one) multimillion dollar businesses. I think they way overpaid for the sites. This forum has very little value and it will take many, many, many years, if at all to make their money back on the Odds site. Another example of a dot com coming into loads of money with a hit business and thinking everything they touch will turn to gold.
ZCore13
Why does everyone keep saying the other site has value? Yes, it gets more traffic. Yes, more people go there to learn how to play casino games. Is that why? I think an online gambler would more likely to visit here than there, proportionally anyway. If someone's gonna piss away money without getting any entertainment value or intending to profit, why would they look up the mathematically optimal strategy? Instead of lighting your whole bank account on fire, you light each dollar on fire, one at a time? I think people use that site mainly cuz they don't wanna get jacked when they go to a casino with friends. People like me used it to understand EV and counting. Online? I'm not seeing it. I need a walk-thru.
Quote: BozI assume you have a way to see how many clicks are coming from this site. My guess is that you will get very few from here as most of the people on here don't play online unless they find a promo worth playing, which todays online casinos usually have rules in place to avoid abuses. I have no issue with the ads and its your money and site, however I do question like others the return you will get off this site.
yes we have the way to track the stats. We do believe there is more value to this site than what some of you here think. :)
Quote: Zugayes we have the way to track the stats. We do believe there is more value to this site than what some of you here think. :)
Why, Zuga, why?!
I wanna know the secret of building wealth.
Quote: SonuvabishWhy, Zuga, why?!
Well we did buy the site because we saw the potential in its better monetization. So thats why... :)
Quote:
I wanna know the secret of building wealth.
Find something you are good at, and then commit to it 16hrs/day for 7 years :)
Quote: ZugaWell we did buy the site because we saw the potential in its better monetization. So thats why... :)
In what way? Do you think people are going to click on the ads and lose gambling in the tune millions of dollars? What am I missing?
Quote: Zuga
Find something you are good at, and then commit to it 16hrs/day for 7 years :)
Sleeping, upsetting people, speeding, demanding my cable/internet bill be reduced, eating pizza, anonymously texting escorts, counting cards without being able to blend in.
Do you have any suggestions as to how my talents can serve me better?
Zuga, I don't know if that's good or bad! It's all good to me, though.
Quote: MoscaThe ads don't bother me at all, I didn't notice them until someone mentioned them.
Zuga, I don't know if that's good or bad! It's all good to me, though.
They don't bother me either. I even clicked on them. That ClubUSA site has a pretty good list of winners.
