SHFL Focus Group 2

Quote: ceb

Alright, it's been four days since the event. Can we please move the complaints to the "Gripes" forum and off of here or at least back onto the original focus group thread. This thread is supposed to be about the second focus group on June 12.

Ceb, this was your original post. The reponses were for the most part, fully on topic and perfectly fine, although passionate at times.

If we all or anyone were to move our Internet forum threads to the "gripes" section at any hint of discord in search of resolution to be worked out, then 99% of threads would be listed under "gripes" and off-topic. In fact, griping about gripes in any thread is a gripe itself, and is a non-salient and off-topic point; it's simply like yelling at others to be quiet.

Quote: ceb

With that in mind, is there anything that game developers/presenters from the first focus group learned that could be shared with the second focus group, other future focus groups, or just inventors/game developers in general. This entire forum is designed to assist each other.

For instance, were there problems with:
1 - the ease or difficulty of the game? (Did it take too long to learn......
.....
.....
.....
8 - the layout of the game? (any comments on this issue?)
9 - anything else?

1. These suggestions and recommendations were previously covered my myself to Pacman, in my "similar short handbook" on fixes earlier in this thread, like I have the right to give him instruction. I did so because I do have 60+ casino table games out in 16 states as a designer, and I work in a similar capacity for a competitor of Shufflemaster reviewing new casino games as my job.
2. Pacman (Roger S.) knows what to look for in a new game, trust me. He's been in table game design for a while, and he has something like 2,500 (twenty-five hundred) table games out under his design and patents, or about 41 times the number that I have out.

Quote: ceb

Was there a common problem among all of the new games?

Yeah, as a matter of fact there was... They sucked ass, for the most part, with a couple of stand-outs that did well, and were polished. More seriously...
Specific game-related problems, answers, solutions, and suggestions are kind of proprietary and patented material that is yet to be commercially presented, and wouldn't be discussed as a post-mortem analysis in the game result "tally room" with competing game inventors - no less on an Internet forum, aside from a recommendations that I had recieved on Hong Kong Poker, which I was willing to share. We got feedback and reactions by dealing our games to the judges present, if there were problems, and we took detailed notes very quietly if we were smart.

Quote: ceb

I like the idea of only a handful of games at one focus group...I also like the idea that the people who are...I was concerned after reading... the other posts from the first focus group that...Perhaps a delayed payment to the judges until after they perform their duties...yada, yada, yada...

I presented these same recommendations and concerns earlier in this thread. You did expand upon them though, I grant you that. I think Roger is a very quick study in response to any sort of field trial issue, either with a new game, or a new procedure, which this was.

Quote: ceb

WITHOUT CONDEMING the judges from the first focus group, what else could they have done to ensure that they are not wore [sic: worn] out from the overwhelming number of games and still make an honest and accurate assessment of each game, and make sure that they give the game developer the courtesy of getting involved with and playing the game so that they understand the ins and outs of the game PRIOR to critiquing it?

This event was a three-hour new game expo and review for your new game assessment and their assessment of your new game, which probably sent you back to the drawing board. It was not a full-semester college course for you on "how to be a successful game designer, and achieve fame and glory in three easy steps."

I can assure you now that ANY issues related to "Corporate Public Relations" by not doing this - as it related to table game distributors, - as well as technical problem solving on new game design, - were brought to the attention and discussed in the R & D rooms of Shufflemaster, Inc., Galaxy Gaming, Boyd Gaming, MGM Resorts International, Station Casinos, DEQ systems, et al, as a direct result of "this event" without this forum being a part of that quick response, though a part of the follow-up. And Shufflemaster proudly stood as the Industry "Ice-Breaker" - fearless avant-garde - on this one, problems aside and all. All internet forums are playing catch-up in its wake, including this one.

Quote: ceb

Did anyone have a problem with the signed waivers before presenting at the first focus group? As I understand it, the attendees sign waivers - there are no Non-Disclosure Agreements. How did everyone feel about that?

No one's feeling were hurt from it. I had my gaming industry patent lawyer review it as simple a business matter weeks before the event, - as a matter of course.
If your feelings would somehow be hurt by signing the needed waivers and legal documents, and paying a few fees, or think that this would be somehow out of the norm or out-of-line, - considering the required legal paperwork, where Shufflemasters requirements were fair and easy - then you don't have a rat's chance in hell of surving the gaming business as a game designer, - as this is mere formalities, lke turning an ignition key to start your car on the way to work. Forget about getting approved as a supplier to a distributoe in the State of Washington - you pay hundreds of dollar to have all members of your immediate family fingerprinted and "backgrounded" - just to supply your Pai Gow Poker game design to the distributor who MIGHT have a shot of placing a few tables in Spokane.

Quote: ceb

Also, what is meant by emergency math for those that need it for the second focus group?

Wow... Basically this means that if you do NOT have a gaming math report on a thoroughly hashed-out game design to be presented, and at least a provisional patent protecting your game design, then Shufflemaster will give you the consideration of telling you (if you do not know...) what the projected House edge is, Table Hold is, the Element of risk on your game (if you have "raise bet" type options where a player may increase his bet if he finds himself in a strong playing position mid-round..), etc.
Then...If you have an absolutely GREAT and novel game design, then Shufflemaster will do the premilinary mathematical review on your game on your behalf, as a courtesy to you if they are interested in your game, in the sense that it has sales potential.
That's all.

Quote: ceb

I have all of my numbers except a couple. (I think I am right on them - I know I am close on them - but I think I need a couple checked out for sure) However, to get the emergency math offered by Roger in this post would require me to disclose my game prior to the event in order to get that. Anyone have any ideas on this issue?

You absolutely - and fearlessly - have to fully disclose and present your idea without fear or reservation, to Roger Snow at Shufflemaster, (or Steve Jones at DEQ systems, or Dean Barnett at Galaxy Gaming) for it to be considered and review. How can you present your game idea for consideration - if you refuse to fully present your game idea to them? A Reasobable Math Analsysis cannot be done on your game spec without providing them your games specifications. Duh. Wow. You have to show them a bit of stocking, and give them your Hotel room key, to get a few things consumated. Now, you have to:
1. work out your game idea very well;
2. Have at least a provisional patent on it;
3. have an understanding of the house edge math on it (very rudimentary), if not a math report, and;
4. Be fearless in showing and pitching your game idea to these executives. If you are bashful, you are out. you are wasting thie time as well as yours.

Quote: ceb

No COMPLAINERS need reply.

No shit!

Quote: ceb

I am looking at moving my game forward and the incessant complaints distract from what is otherwise a very valuable forum, thread post, and event by Shuffle Master.

You must be a crybaby, - and flag me if you want.
If some little Internet sword-crossing on this topic scares you to the point of complaint and gripe over here it, - you do not stand a chance wearing out of leather shoes, going from casino to casino on the Las Vegas Strip, to show some Casino Tables Director your game, your precious baby, only to hear: "I'll install it for $20 a month royalty - IF you can get 200 other casinos to install it first as guinea pigs, with the backing of a MAJOR distributor like Shufflemaster, DEQ, or Galaxy. Sorry to hear you mortgaged your house to pay for the math reports and patent lawyers, but I think you game sucks. good luck to you.

A lot is involved, and it is a Long Road...
Good luck to you.

If you are easily bored, or don't like reading incoherent rambling, you might want to skip this one.

I have given up all aspirations of winning the Pulitzer prize in literature. I have been properly chastised by an expert in the field. And I did take it as constructive criticism. I will not name the evaluator, but if it takes you 2 guesses to know he is, you must have forgotten to take your meds today !
*********************************************************************************************************
Buzz,



Before I got into gaming, I was a journalist. I wrote for newspapers, radio stations and television stations. As this pedigree might suggest, I appreciate clear and concise communication.



I have read your e-mail four times and I can’t make heads or tails out of it.



Do you have a game you want in the upcoming focus group? If so, what is the name and what are the rules of that game?

**********************************************************************************************************

Consider yourself fairly warned. Here goes nothing fella.




****************************************** THE DINNER *****************************************************


As I walked into Steak House at 5 to 7 I was still wondering whether this would be a Focus group or a Dog and Pony show. I have been paid to attend 40 to 40 focus groups in Denver. It is a big marketing trial area. Usually pays $40 to $60 for 2 hour session about things as diverse as
Stouffers Lasagna frozen dinners to Would you pay for a shingles vaccination shot ? Was on 3 pre-trial jury evaluations at $200 a pop for
4 hours on Saturday mornings. In all cases the people paying for the groups wanted to know what you think about their product, how to improve it, etc. Usually the sponsors were behind one way mirrors.

Now dog and pony shows can best be described as shooting an arrow into the wall and drawing a bulls-eye around it afterwards. Saw lots of them

in 30+ years at AT&T. Last one was in 1996. True Voice project headed by Joe Nacchio. I was lead tech at the Denver switching center and it
was a complete disaster. Dale Robertson was the corporate spokesman for AT&T at the time. He was getting a little long in the tooth, so they had
signed a squeaky clean image young lady. Signed her to a 10 year contact worth 20 or 30 million. Her name was Whitney Houston SIGH

In 1997 Joe Nacchio went to Qwest as it's CEO. And crunched the numbers for 5 years. When the real numbers came out Qwest stock went from
$38 to less than $2. But our boy Joe had made 52 million dumping his stock when the stock was riding high. In 2006 he was found guilty of
insider trading , sentenced to 6 years , 17 million fine, and please give back the 52 million sir. He started serving time at Club Fed in 2009 and is now suing the lawyers that represented him at trial.

Now you know more about focus groups versus dog and pony shows than you ever wanted to know. Just setting my frame of mind as I entered
the Steakhouse. The hostess was chatting with a senior couple and it was obvious here and the lady were old friends. After a few minutes, I cleared my throat and told the Hostess I was here for the Shufflemaster . She asked me if I would mind following her as she showed the elderly couple to their table. I said " As long as I can join them for dessert later :" The classy lady turned around, gave me a wink and said " As long as you pick up the check, darling " Damn, what a howdydo. But it gets even better. Finally follow the hostess thru the maze and to the SMI cave. My eyes are still adjusting to the dark and I can not tell if name signs are on the table or not. So I said " I'm Buzz Paff ." And someone says, " you don't look 72 "
Now I really feel at home. Always nice to know you are not the only liar in the room.. LOL

Roger points to a seat on the far side and I go the long way around. Looking for a familiar face I can not find Mike and somebody does look like Dan Lubin, but I am unsure. I do spot DJteddybear. Never set eyes on the man before, be he had to be DJ. You could drag 100 strangers of the street, mix in DJ and I still would have spotted him. Hell, you could fly Mr. Casino games into the US and he would spot DJ. This man is his name !

Now, I an seated and Dan Lubin starts to talk and from Utube I recognize the voice. Find out later he has health issues, lost some weight, and can not enjoy Prime Rib on doctor's orders. Now, no matter who I am talking to, my peripheral vision is focused on Roger and his minions. I have been around enough tin men, repo guys, estimators, hustlers, etc to spot a phony at 100 paces.

Roger has us go around the table, give a 30 seconds bio, before dinner starts. I order the prime rib ($39 ) and request it medium well. It comes medium rare. I do NOT send it back. I worked with a guy at at&t who had been a cook at the Millionaire's Club in the basement of the Brown
Palace Hotel. And sometimes the Chef can be a little temperamental, to say the least. Actually the Prime Rib was delicious.

Shortly before dessert Roger goes over the scoring system and the whole layout. By now I have made my evaluation of Roger. Sometimes I miss out on thinking somebody is a good guy or not, but I am dead on with bad actors. Never Miss. Get no bad vibes on Roger and decided to
categorize him as the Shufflemaster Sheriff. Not the kind of citified sheriff who got his job thru political patronage. But more of the old town tamer type. You know, might have ridden the outlaw trail at some time in his past. His deputies are there. I also suspect, with no valid reason to, that he
sometimes forgets he is wearing a badge now and has to let the other guy draw first.

Well, that's how my sick mind works, OK

As long as I am being honest, there was an uncomfortable moment for me. Roger asked if everybody was Ok with dealing their game. He said " Is that Ok, Buzz, is that Ok ? I have that same feeling when on campus some sweet young thing rushes ahead to hold a door open for me .
It's really nice, but I wish you hadn't done that !

I finished desert, diamond shaped banana slices above the rim of an ice cream filled dish, complete with some sort of Brandy sauce.
YUMMY.

Left the cave really looking forward to the Focus Group. Roger suggested we arrive by 8:15, and certainly no later than 8:30

I was there at 7:10 . With absolutely no idea of the scenery I was about to be treated too at SMI

OK. Now that I'm hone, and using a real computer, here's some more of my thoughts.



I can't thank Roger enough for the chance to get genuine feedback I received both at the event, as well as at the meeting I had on Friday with Roger. Thanks again, Roger.


I found some of the side conversations at the Tuesday dinner disrespectful. (FYI: Roger invited us to dinner at The Steakhouse in Circus Circus.) The purpose was somewhat social, but also to go over some of the rules and procedures. I was seated just to the left of center, Roger was on the end to my right. There were multiple times at dinner where I wanted to turn to my left and tell those guys that Roger was speaking. Or to be more blunt and tell them to shut the F up. I mean, seriously. Where were their manners? Not only was Roger telling us some important information about the event, but he was gracious enough to buy us all dinner, at a somewhat pricey restaurant, and you can't give him the respect he deserves? What the hell!?!?!

While I think I could have done a better job on my presentation had there been more time, I doubt that would have helped improve my score. As such, I would not have suggested that the demo time be extended. If the presenters that were showing and actually playing the games feel they could use more time, so be it. On the other hand, if you need more time to explain your game to the kind of audience assembled, what chance does Johnny Gambler have? It reminds me of the time I stepped up to a new game and asked the dealer how it works. His response was, "You put your money down, and the casino makes it go away."

I agree with Dan that the judges should have stayed thru the scoring as well as Q&A afterwards. On the other hand, I think Dan was WAY out of line in mentioning how much they were paid. Frankly, seeing Roger pull cash out of his pocket to pay someone, it was hard to divert my eyes. Yeah, I can confirm the amount Dan mentioned in the other thread. But it's really none of anyone's business. Whether you or the judges themselves think the judges were overpaid, underpaid, or otherwise, once the judges agreed to do this for the amount offered, they should have been committed to staying until the very end. The actual dollar amount is irrelevant.

I think the overall format was fine. I.E. There were three groups of judges, and three games being shown at the same time. We all had to show our game to three different groups of judges. As such, it was impossible for us to see all of our competition's presentations. However, this three group format was the only logical way to overcome the advantage or disadvantage of being first or last. Kudos to Roger for coming up with that format.

The only major thing I would consider changing would be the venue itself. It seemed to me that we were somewhat cramped. (FYI: This was done in a game demo room at ShuffleMaster's office.) The room had, I believe, 9 casino game tables, along with chairs. I think it would have gone easier if some of the tables and chairs had been removed.


For the record, I made my own "Placemat." These were used to simulate what the betting circles would look like, etc. All the other presenters had placemats made by ShuffleMaster. I don't know if I missed the memo or what. but I made my own. It only cost me a couple bucks, so no big deal. However, I designed mine as if it were being used on a traditional felt roulette table. My demo was on the iTable. I do not know if that made any difference in the opinions or scoring of my game.

Here's what my placemat looked like. Click it to download a PDF version. Page 1 looks like this. Page 2 includes some notes, intended as a handout. I ended up NOT handing it out.



Thanks to my experiences, I now know the changes I need to make to the game to overcome one of the primary objections. And thanks to advice I got early on from Dan, the changes are covered by my patent. And I know that I should probably build a mock-up of my sensor and lights betting position, so that the judges will have a better chance to "get it" as well as not take points off for fear of additional/difficult dealer procedures.

DJ As soon as I got home I checked all my emails for any such memo. I think maybe they made the placemats from the materials submitted along with NDA. One idiot, who shall remain nameless, but was the only guy without a real placemat, mailed the NDA
priority mail with tracking. Now is only he had included his PPA, game drawings, etc along with the NDA.

Now you know why my placemat just had ACTION BLACKJACK and a white circle on it.

I AM SO F****** DUMB.

LOL

Quote: buzzpaff

Now you know why my placemat just had ACTION BLACKJACK and a white circle on it.

I AM SO F****** DUMB.

LOL

LOL! You live, you learn. What do you think everybody else did the first time they presented a game? :-)

Hey, I am the classic example of not how to do a presentation. I am usual a slow starter at anything, but I was embarrassed
for the Deputy assigned to me even.

Quote: ceb

I also like the idea that the people who are testing each game MUST PLAY the game for 20 minutes each.

As I previously mentioned, while I was at SM on Friday, I participated in a layout / logo design meeting. The entire meeting was less than 10 minutes long. Long enough to give the two artists a feel for the games. One was a game Roger had shown at the Focus Group. The other was completely new. In that 10 minutes, I got the gist of those two games, enough to form a "like it" opinion of the game shown to the group, and a "f-ing love it, why didn't he show this at the focus group" opinion of the other one.

I kid you not. He played that game for maybe three hands. Total time including the explanation was 3 or 4 minutes. And in that very short time, he has me ready to bust a gasket keeping the game secret.

Quote: ceb

Did anyone have a problem with the signed waivers before presenting at the first focus group? As I understand it, the attendees sign waivers - there are no Non-Disclosure Agreements. How did everyone feel about that?

Although Buzz referred to them as a "NDA", they were most certainly NOT NDAs.

They were Idea Waivers - similar to the form that they will request you sign prior to submitting any game idea to them. Note that when I originally submitted my idea in Oct. 2010, there was a requirement that the game be patented, or be covered by a preliminary patent, before they would even send you the waiver.

As I recall, the waiver basically stated that, if ShuffleMaster happens to be developing something similar, they are under no obligation to tell you, or to compensate you.

And, yeah, my lawyer, Rich Newman, said it was OK to sign, and to show my idea at the event.

Quote: buzzpaff

DJ As soon as I got home I checked all my emails for any such memo. I think maybe they made the placemats from the materials submitted along with NDA. One idiot, who shall remain nameless, but was the only guy without a real placemat, mailed the NDA
priority mail with tracking. Now is only he had included his PPA, game drawings, etc along with the NDA.

Now you know why my placemat just had ACTION BLACKJACK and a white circle on it.

I AM SO F****** DUMB.

LOL

For the record, when I submitted my waiver, I included Mike's math report, as well as some of my marketing materials. I did NOT submit a copy of my patent - which DOES have an early mockup of the betting station pictured above.

Then again, I had always planned on creating my own placemats - even before I learned that's what they are called.

This Agreement applies to SMI and You, and our respective employees, agents,
advisors and affiliated companies. This Agreement also applies to any additional
disclosures which might be made, whether made before now, at the same time as this
submission, or at a later date

Close enough to a NDA for me. I had no problem signing it.

Please be aware before reading this that the opinions expressed are mine and mind alone.


++++++++++++++++++++++++ FOCUS GROUP ++++++++++++++++++++++

I arrived at SMI headquarters at 7:10 am. SHIT has a way of happening to me sometimes and I
decided to not take any chances. There is some sort of electrical box near the side door and I
sat there. Going over my game in my head one more time. And enjoying the scenery. 4 young
ladies drove up and parked. I noticed all 4 were blondes and wearing high heels. 2 males arrived
next, paid little attention as I was never a switch hitter, even in baseball.

And then a black corvette pulled up and i happened to be in the cat-bird seat as a leggy young
lady exited the passenger door. Her heels were in the 4-5 inch range complete with leg wraps.
Need I say she was also a blonde of the traffic stopping variety,

2 brunettes and a redhead were the next variety of female workers. So I knew there was not a
blonde requirement to work at SMI, but wonder if there was an unwritten rule about high heels.
I mean with two palm trees at the front entrance, this seemed to be sandal territory..

At about 8 am I spied DJ and his brother drive into the parking lot and go around the side of the building.
I walked there and discovered those parking spots were reserved. Found DJ still in his car at rear of the
building. Also there was the nice lady who was to deal for Dan Lubin. We all walked up to the front
entrance and went inside. We filled out a Guest name tag, handed the part that had our info on to
the receptionist. And stuck GUEST on my shirt. I would have preferred Buzz, but I do not complain.
It was much better than the numbers I have worn on a state provided orange shirt in the past LOL

The area where the games were to be dealt was SMI's showcase of table game, digital and otherwise.
There was a wait for an evaluator to show up, and the wise was not there yet. I got a ruling from
Judge ( short for judge-mental ) Dan that if he did not show, Mike would owe me 80 pushups
instead of 40 on our double-or-nothing bet on high score.

The last evaluator showed up to a round of applause orchestrated in advance by Sheriff Roger.
Mike showed up immediately afterwards and the games began. I was second up to bat. To say I
struck out would be a gross understand. More like on strike 3 I lost the bat and it sailed into the
President's box and killed the First Lady

I rambled on about the rules, house edge, SD BJ, and God only knows what else for 4 or 5
minutes. The only thing worse that my pitch was my miserable attempt at dealing Pitch BJ.
In my own defense I will say that none of the 52 cards wound up on the floor.

I watched Mike deliver a pitch that surpassed any of his Utube video's. No ummms , ahhhs, just
a concise explanation of what a mulligan is and how it applied to his game. I also watched moneysuit 31
and though if anyone was penalized by the 10 minute time limit it was him. I know I know, same rules
for everybody is fair. But fairer for some than others. Think World Series and everyone must bat
left-handed. Or a Super Bowl with no passhing the rusher.

My second time up to bat was worse. My pitch was only a minute and almost explained the rules.
yes I said ALMOST. The Deputy was not used to watching such a massacre and suggested I
deal the cards face up. All stayed on the table again is the only positive thing I can add. On the
3rd hand I actually dealt someone AA. Of course I also dealt 2 other Aces face up. So much for the WOW factor.
Plus on the last deal a evaluator asked about the push 22. He had read on the felt. See, I said ALMOST.

Naturally i was looking forward to my 3rd at bat. I mean just another 26 or 28 more at bats and I am sure I
could improve to mediocre. The Deputy asked if I had considered multi-deck application. I mumble something and
spit out the rules and once again keep the cards on the table, but 2 do go under the place mats.It is at this point
in time that my keen observations skills notice that almost everybody is betting $10 on both spots. Because a
dummy forgot to tell them you could bet 2 spots without having to bet twice the table minimum. I asked the Deputy
to please tell me only 14 seconds are left. Just my luck, an honest lawman. he says i have 40 seconds. I said
" Close enough " Would have said that is he had said ' 4 minutes and 40 seconds."

As Roger announces he will post the scores now I said aloud, " Please do not do it alphabetically " I should have named my game
Zebra BJ instead of Action BJ. My first two scores are -10 and -10 and my mental over bet on my line of over/under -80 is looking good.
I wind up at -20 and upon reflection, I under-estimated the " he seems' like a nice old man" or " he reminds me of my grandfather, Gee I miss him"
element. If you have a better explanation, I'd like to hear it.

I am not shocked at DJ's score. His static display was too static. I can only imagine trying to explain SWITCH Bj without a deck of cards. It can be done but loses a lot in the process. Was surprised at Switch's game being +5. Expected better. Was floored by moneysuit -35 WTF.

If you read my post about the Dinner you know I thought Sheriff Roger might occasionally forget he was wearing a badge now
and draw first. This time he drew boyh guns and aimed then at innocent townspeople. He was well within his rights to see feedback
for the game inventors. But " Come on Now! Come on. You voted this game -35. Tell me why " Sort of like having the judges
of a beauty contest, face proud parents, and make them say why their daughter was not pretty enough to be in the top 10.

I got a +10 from a grey haired gentleman who remembered the good old days of SD BJ. Pretty sure one of my -10's was from an
Asian dealer who said " He did not even have the rules on the place mat "

I was pretty sure Roger was not gonna offer me $5,000. My wife had suggested I get it in a cashier's check or casino chips LOL
Walked outside with Mike, called wife and daughter to come get me. Bought a burger from food wagon and sayt on a rock across the street
and 200 feet past the front entrance to SMI. While sitting there saw 2 young ladies dropped off with take out lunches in white plastic bags.
High heels once more. Just before I got picked up a young black girl, 20's parked near me. Not on parking lot, on either side of the street
in front SMI, but near where I was. She had the same type of carryout food and walked over to SMI. Black blouse, slacks a and FLAT
shoes. Wondered id she worked there or joining someone for lunch.

I will never know because daughter pulled up, wife wound down window and asked " How did it go ? " And you can quote me anytime.
I replied " Pretty good. I learned a lot " josie said , " Get In. We are going to Treasure Island . " And we did !

This is all over the places but I have been taking finals exams i begged out of to go to Las Vegas. One course is taught by a retired Navy
Commander who is super strict. Had i not been a Vietnam Vet, I would have flunked for sure..

I would like to say a good time was had by all. But I know that was not true. As for me , the $39 prime Rib, dessert, and tip easily
recover more than 30% of my invest in Pro Se PPa, math analysis etc. Plus it gave me an excuse to go to Vegas.

Just wanted to post now, just in case Roger is unlucky enough to draw my name out of the hat.
And if he does not, don't want to make this appear as sour games.
I HAD A GREAT TIME !!!!

Buzz -
I agree with most of what you said, but must take exception to this comment:

Quote: buzzpaff

" Come on Now! Come on. You voted this game -35. Tell me why " Sort of like having the judges
of a beauty contest, face proud parents, and make them say why their daughter was not pretty enough to be in the top 10.

When family and friends ask what the people in Vegas thought of my game, I tell them:

"They liked it enough to tell me exactly why it sucks. Now I can fix it...."

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Buzz -
I agree with most of what you said, but must take exception to this comment:


When family and friends ask what the people in Vegas thought of my game, I tell them:

"They liked it enough to tell me exactly why it sucks. Now I can fix it...."

Bingo!
Dan.

Evidently I did not express myself well. I could see the evaluators were uncomfortable. I di not mean the game inventors were adverse to feedback. Quite the opposite, But what were there, about 15 or 20 comments . 14 games times the ten or 12 evaluators seems a little light. My feedback was 2 sentences. Perhaps at the next seesion, the inventors could be sent to a penalty box while the evaluators filled out the standard Focus evaluation form. Strongly Agree, Agree , Diasgree, strongly disagree, etc. Sure this forum could provide sample questions Were the rules easily Understood ? Did you think having to make 3 bets to play was fair ?

If that had been done each inventor could have left with a envelope full of feedback. 12 or 13 Strongly Disagrees with rules were easy
to understand would be more helpful than -20 and 2 sentences.

F ollow U p Dan

Quote: buzzpaff

But what were there, about 15 or 20 comments .

You're assuming the judges knew what they were doing.
Lack of feedback speaks volumes about their qualifications
to judge.

Quote: buzzpaff

Evidently I did not express myself well. I could see the evaluators were uncomfortable. I di not mean the game inventors were adverse to feedback. Quite the opposite, But what were there, about 15 or 20 comments . 14 games times the ten or 12 evaluators seems a little light. My feedback was 2 sentences. Perhaps at the next seesion, the inventors could be sent to a penalty box while the evaluators filled out the standard Focus evaluation form. Strongly Agree, Agree , Diasgree, strongly disagree, etc. Sure this forum could provide sample questions Were the rules easily Understood ? Did you think having to make 3 bets to play was fair ?

If that had been done each inventor could have left with a envelope full of feedback. 12 or 13 Strongly Disagrees with rules were easy
to understand would be more helpful than -20 and 2 sentences.

F ollow U p Dan

I would enjoy playing...(SA/A/N/D/SD)...WHY?
I would enjoy dealing...(SA/A/N/D/SD)...WHY?
I would recommend this game to friends...(SA/A/N/D/SD)...WHY?
The game is easy to understand...((SA/A/N/D/SD)...WHY?
The amount of money at risk in each round is...(too much, too little, about right)...WHY?
The speed of play is...(too fast, too slow, about right)...WHY?
The feature I most liked was...(free form)
The feature I most disliked was...(free form)
The changes I would recommend are...(free form)

EXACTLY !!

Quote: buzzpaff

Evidently I did not express myself well. I could see the evaluators were uncomfortable.

They should NOT have been that way as professional judges and evaluators. A lot of their tallies were off the mark on the new games. One of my strident points.

Quote: busspaff

I did not mean the game inventors were adverse to feedback.

We absolutely cannot be; that is what we want and need to succeed.

Quote: Buzzpaff

Quite the opposite, But what were there, about 15 or 20 comments . 14 games times the ten or 12 evaluators seems a little light. My feedback was 2 sentences.

We absolutely needed much more feedback; might not have been in SHFL's interest to provide, if not signing.. A GOOD game designer gets a full report from a smirk OR a grimmace from a pro dealer playing on his game.

Quote: Buzzpaff

Perhaps at the next seesion, the inventors could be sent to a penalty box while the evaluators filled out the standard Focus evaluation form. Strongly Agree, Agree , Diasgree, strongly disagree, etc. Sure this forum could provide sample questions Were the rules easily Understood ? Did you think having to make 3 bets to play was fair ?

Would make the event heavily laddened.

Quote: Buzzpaff

If that had been done each inventor could have left with a envelope full of feedback. 12 or 13 Strongly Disagrees with rules were easy
to understand would be more helpful than -20 and 2 sentences.

F ollow U p Dan

My follow-up:
1. Shufflemaster did an outragiously brave and novel act - even revolutionary - in doing this. They get the credit, even if Roger feels it is punishment. As time passes, he'll see it was fine and brilliant, opening up the industry to some "Linux" type things. Very admirable. There were initially punished for it, but can reap massive rewards if followed up correctly. Game designers could have been spoon-feed some answers, true, but you had to watch and respond to the judges at your table. I am a veteran casino dice and card dealer, so I was able to do that. Not fair - very true. You have Roger's email address.
2. On the initial reactions from the event: I stated that Mike and Stacy were pleased; and they were.
3. All the others in the room did seem to be depressed and a little burned by it at the time. They were indeed. I was neutral, I had a lot of games out, as did Geoff (Switch), who was absent.
4. Best intro to this particular industry, for all its plus and minuses, it was absolutely spot-on, faults and all! We exist in the table-game gaming industry as a VERY YOUNG, rude, perverse, wild-eyed, cut-throat type of thing, - as NEW GAME DESIGN is only 20- years old. Before us, there was just plain-Jane Blackjack, Craps and Roulette - and that was boring IT - not improved upon through the 1980's! I cannot imaging a casino pit WITHOUT Ultimate Texas Hold 'em from Shufflemaster, three Card Poker from Shufflemaster, and pai Gow Poker, from the public doamin from California. GOD BLESS game designers for us gamblers!
Neither Sufflemaster or DEQ existed 25 years ago. Game design is a BRAND-New industry subset of gaming that made the gaming industry a lot more than just plain craps and Blackjack - as it was 20 or 30 years ago. We have our problems and growing pains, okay?

My take on the events are simple:
I stated that Mike and Stacy were pleased with their results; and they were. They did surprising well.
All the others in the room did seem to be depressed and a little burned by it at the time. this is TRUE! I said so, and it WAS a let down at the time, for many who tranveled thousands of miles and spend fourtunes on a dream in this young industry.
It was painful to watch at the time, and I felt bad - then. It was also the best intro to the young game design industry imanginable - and it came from Shufflemaster. It was a baptismal by fire, as a young industry always is. Better to work on a new game design and take years to pass or fail, then to spend your life watching old movies on cable eating Dorito's as a useless couch potato - which is how many of you otherwise would have spent your time otherwise! If I may again use the workd "ALL" for BUZZPAFF - ALL of the men involved in this effort stepped up to the plate like fucking men. We are all proud, - no apologies or obsessing.
People are now fine with it, so now great.

Quote: EvenBob

You're assuming the judges knew what they were doing.
Lack of feedback speaks volumes about their qualifications
to judge.

It looks as though I will be a judge at SHFL Group 2 and will be happy to supply detailed feedback to any inventor that requests it. I'd like to think that I can use my past experiences to determine the pro's and con's of a new game.

I still feel incredibly lucky to have attended. My criticism about the feedback was meant as constructive criticism.
No more and no less. And the fact that Sheriff Roger is willing to put my name in the hat for the next Focus
Group, proves he has balls bigger than King Kong !

Quote: Paigowdan

People are now fine with it, so now great.

People are all fine with it because a better
and improved event is coming very shortly.
Thats the best move Roger has made, not
this other stuff you're going on about.

Quote: EvenBob

People are all fine with it because a better
and improved event is coming very shortly.
Thats the best move Roger has made, not
this other stuff you're going on about.

Roger has considered all good ideas for the next event, even some from me, I would like to think.
You will correct me on this, regardless of if I am wrong or right on this.
Get over it, I presented some ideas to "un-bias" the next event, - as we all have - and they all added, even if they came from diabolical Dan.

Get over any resentment, Buzz.
It was all good.

Quote: Paigowdan

Roger has considered all good ideas for the next event, .

He's going to erase the bad taste in the mouth
from the first event, with the event that will
please everyone. Its not for nothing he's called
the Prince of Darkness. Thats his official title,
isn't it?

And where , pray tell, Mr. Lubin , did I express any resentment.

Quote: EvenBob

He's going to erase the bad taste in the mouth
from the first event, with the event that will
please everyone. Its not for nothing he's called
the Prince of Darkness. Thats his official title,
isn't it?

Roger is not called that, except by some sour ex-shfl people.
Actually, he is called the "P of D" by a few others on the basis of sour grapes.
Ignore them, and judge him on your own straight-up dealings with him. He is straight up, a little more so than some can handle.
He's actually a stand-up and straight up guy who doesn't mince words.
He'll cut your arm off in a sword fight like many men, though.
He's in the gaming business, and he's the quickest learner from a field trial, I can tell you that.
The next event will be fine.

Quote: buzzpaff

And where , pray tell, Mr. Lubin , did I express any resentment.

Well...
You protested too much. A hall mark of a residual issues remains a simmering pot.
Shoot, guddang, and I thought I was long-winded....

Buzz, If you had said, "Yeah, the game tally results of Roger's event had stung me for just a second while in the room, - and I have got to admit that was true then, - but I've re-grouped and moved forward from there," - and then you actually moved forward from there, then fine. The more you defend yourself, the more you indicate an issue.

It's like saying for a few years: ,

I'm over my ex-wife and the divorce, really I am, I'm OKAY,
I'm over my ex-wife and the divorce, really I am, I'm OKAY,
I'm over my ex-wife and the divorce, really I am, I'm OKAY

Goddamit, I'm Okay, @#$%%^#
Goddamit, I'm Okay, @#$%%^#
...
Look, Buzz, we know you're okay with everything, we got it.

It was great - fantastic you made it out to the new games event, you did us well, we are all proud you you.
You game is good.
Keep on perfecting it, it might get into casinos.
But don't give up your day time job.
Dave "DJTeddyBear" hasn't.
I haven't. I deal dice and Pai Gow Poker at Fiesta Henderson. My Wife works at Sam's Town (Boyd gaming).
And Roger still works at SHFL.

None of us are retired, and we would really like to be. In a mansion in Thailand, - with lady servants at our beck and call. ("I NEED servicing...[clap, clap!]")
NONE of us got there yet. NO one....

I think (KNOW FOR A FACT) that casino pit operations and new games development areas are the toughest and rudest areas in gaming to work in.
NOT easy.
We also know that new games get BLASTED in the press and Internet until they have 40 gmes out, - and by casino managers you're trying to sell to - especially with Eliot J. constantly showing how countable they all are on www.discountgambling.com - if they are dealt from a shoe...(He's found a gravy train...)

Buzz, you expressed excessive interest or possible resentment by not leaving it at:
1. Roger did his best. He did great, he did a brave thing, and He was human, there were some mistakes. Dan chimed in to agree on this. Okay. We are ALL fine with that - and I am using the word all to describe ALL of us. We are now all okay. Unless someone has a further problem with Roger...outside ot Sc?tt.
2. I didn't do too well, but I will do better next time. I will work on and refine my game. Make it a mother@#$%^... Okay, and;
3. I am OVER it - so here are my fixes to the game, or a NEW game design, and I will make it in gaming or;
4. I am going back to my daytime job - to become president of that company.

Everybody's fine now. It was a great and brave thing by Shufflemaster overall.

We move on to the next gaming endeavor...

Quote: Paigowdan

The more you defend yourself, the more you indicate an issue.

.

Sounds like a certain somebody on here who
always defends the casinos right to have secret
rules.

no. no secret rules. just acusations to that effect from Bob over here.

Things are pretty much out totally out in the open, thanks to the Internet and its forums.

Legions chime in, and everyone knows everything.

And Bob still wails and accuses of Darth Vader conspiracies...gotta love this place...

The more you defend yourself, the more you indicate an issue.

The more you speak for me, the more I feel necessary to reply. But no more !

This thread brought out the worst in most people who posted...

Anyway, if anyone wants to bring my game to Shufflemaster Focus Group 2, just let me know. You need to do all the work, and all I require is 10% of the profit. But I can be negotiated down to 5% pretty quickly :)

I'd like one game install for Tri-Craps and I would be a happy man!

Buzz, I must say that your lengthy posts were well written and had a nice literary feel to them. Maybe you could target some of your creative ideas into writing short stories or even a book?

I'd like to dedicate the following Youtube link to person(s) on here whom shall remain anonymous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

I'd get involved myself but, as with Mr. DeBakey, I'm far too conciliatory. Enjoy.

I am proud to announce my name was not drawn and I am thereby not forced to face further humiliation.
Congats to the other 6 WINNERS !!!!

If that's the way you feel about it, why did you ask to be considered for Focus Group 2?

And are you sure you haven't been selected? Although the "lottery" was supposed to be drawn yesterday, I kinda expected the results to be published here...

DJ That's satire or my attempt at it. Check you email. I received the selected names this morning. I figured if Roger wanted them here, he would have posted same ?? I will PM you the names, OK. Doing same now
Buzz

Check your PM DJTEDDYBEAR

Or your email as Roger's email has the following open sentence.

This e-mail is being sent to everyone who submitted his name for inclusion in the June 7 focus group at Shuffle Master.

DJ, I do not see your email among the header on Roger's email ??

I did not get the email.

Then again, I wasn't expecting it.


Although I originally asked to be considered, yesterday morning, I withdrew. I need to make some changes to my game. I do not think I can properly fix the game and be ready to present it in only 4 weeks time. I DID ask to be kept in the loop, and for inclusion in some other future focus group.

For a variety of reasons, which may or may not have been as important as I had though they were, I didn't want to disclose that info until after the names had been drawn.

Ok Teddy Bear. That makes sense, I will forward the email as Roger expressed the fact that the Focus group is not the end all.
I will quote from his email.

" Again, and I can’t stress this enough, our primary method for evaluating games is not through these focus groups. Instead, it is through my benevolent dictatorship. Send your games to me (sign the waiver first) and you will get a prompt yes or no answer. "

I am sure EvenBob will comment on " benevolent dictatorship" later. LOL

Good luck with your new and improved POKER FOR ROULETTE. Look forward to playing it in a casino in the near future. Probably will have to push my way through the excited crowd of players to do so.

Buzz

I heard thru the grapevine that one of the
new games they're looking at is titled "Just
Give Us Your Money, Stupid!".

While appropriate, it might be a little over
the top for some patrons. I suggest they
tone it down a little. Maybe call it "Psst.
Over Here, Moron".

Quote: EvenBob

"Just
Give Us Your Money, Stupid!".
"Psst.
Over Here, Moron".

Sounds like a couple of "Clark Griswold" games.

FOCUS GROUP 2 WILL BE ON JUNE !2 AND NOT JUNE 7TH !

Don't forget to mark your calender

FOCUS GROUP 2 WILL BE ON JUNE !2 AND NOT JUNE 7TH !

Quote: buzzpaff

Don't forget to mark your calender

FOCUS GROUP 2 WILL BE ON JUNE !2 AND NOT JUNE 7TH !

Hey Buzz - you've written that as !2 twice now. I assume you mean 12?

I meant June 12. No doubt I will hear about this from Mister Lubin. SIGH

This thread has sure died now that the new
list has come out.

I for one am reluctant to post the 6 entrants,
Roger did request that I announce the correct date of June 12.

Perhaps some of invitees might post about their games ??

Roger says this is the list for the June gauntlet.

1. Kevin Raymond

2. Dan Lubin

3. Rich Milosevich

4. Frank O’Brien

5. Wayne Hong

6. Chris Brevik

The only name I recognize in Dan Lubin.

I know Rich has BJ split and expect his game to fare better with a 20 minute time. I saw a few people still setting their
hand wrong on his last deal around.

Back to the second events's specs:
The extra "per-game" time will help immensely.
So will "less flurry/the round-robin" burn-out also.
So will non-competition with the sponsor on an open audition.
Quick study and quick response you can expect from Roger.
....

The list of entrants.
I know/have met/dealt with/... Rich and Wayne.

The young man Rich M. impresses me. Spoke to him at Roger's dinner. Pure "Eye on the Brass Ring" positive attitide; he seemed steadfast, serene, unshakeable and accepting for a new game designer. Totally free of storms and screams and upsets over his baby, Rich is not any sort of "stage mother" who is baby-sitting or sweating his kid's screen-test or audition here, - just a "step up to the plate, and give it you best shot, son. Let's see how ya do, and we'll take the next steps from there." Remarkable. I came from New York City and the High School of Performing Arts (class of '78) - I can tell you there are high school and college kids who would slit their wrists if they don't make into Columbia University, or "The Manhattan School of Music" or "Julliard School of Music" based on a single audition, there really are.

There are also sharp kids who auditioned for ten colleges, never sweating a single one of them, and took SUNY Binghamtom's drama department, or CCNY's school of the Arts, saying, "I'll make this happen, even if I pay for college with two years in Iraq or Afghanistan" - and some do. If they die trying, it was never a suicide, self-inflicted wound, or from an attitude problem with a complaint about the process. It was "I'll try my best to make it happen, AND I won't sweat it or cry." In my first year with DEQ, I took a few black eyes to knock the "Julliard School Attitude" out of me as a game designer. I have never seem a game designer so serene while maintaining interest in his kid at this stage. Your own games, especially the first ones, are very big, huge to you...

If Rich follows up with this game thing, fine. If he doesn't, and goes onto something else, I expect him to be a Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force by the time he is Fourty.
Priceless lesson. Wish I saw it or lived it at his age, because it wasn't me then.

...Wayne and I have had some dealings on Break Poker, but I like two of his his BJ side bets.

Frank and Kevin and the others I haven't met, I'm looking forward to it.

I'm showing a poker variant called "Play the Board;" I did the casino version of one of Gary's poker room game's I like, not as much as Hong Kong Poker, and it would be very informative to see how this game concept goes over. A gamble, but that's what this search is about.