How often do you go to the casino?
I’m flabbergasted! After half an hour I would be fed up. Where is the fun of pushing a button repeatedly? (Be honest, the number of ‘strategic thinking’ situations must be one in fifteen.)
The seats are uncomfortable, the people around …err…I can’t find a word acceptable to Wiz’s rules, the sh***y music is overflowed by repetitive irritating ‘trubidubiding’ of the machines. You have to inhale cigarette smoke. Urk!
Even at a live table I could hardly play for more than 2-3 hours.
Yes I do. I arrive at the casino around 10 AM and often play straight until 3 PM. If I'm with someone, we will take time out for lunch. I don't find the chairs at our casino uncomfortable. I only play weekdays with mostly other retirees. I move around a lot just to break things up and get a little exercise.Quote: kubikulannDo you mean that you spend a whole day sitting in front of a VP machine? Every week?
I’m flabbergasted! After half an hour I would be fed up. Where is the fun of pushing a button repeatedly? (Be honest, the number of ‘strategic thinking’ situations must be one in fifteen.)
The seats are uncomfortable, the people around …err…I can’t find a word acceptable to Wiz’s rules, the sh***y music is overflowed by repetitive irritating ‘trubidubiding’ of the machines. You have to inhale cigarette smoke. Urk!
Even at a live table I could hardly play for more than 2-3 hours.
The games I have to play are seriously negative, so I play small to limit the damage. To me, video poker is like playing Candy Crush for money. It's strictly entertainment. Playing single coin quarters can get boring, so I use a simple system to switch to max coins when I'm ahead. This works for me and creates a high variance game inside of a relatively mild game. So far this year, I'm even with the casino.
I don't claim my scheme can beat a 96% video poker game. When you are playing 25 cents a hand, a lucky max coin hand puts you ahead for quite a while. Relying on luck is not a long term winning VP strategy.
People have told me you can't win playing single coin VP. That may be true. I think playing VP all day for pocket change is winning. To each his own I guess.
Playing - EV 1 coin video poker sounds like one of the worst Hobbies ever. But to each their own.
Quote: AxelWolf
Playing - EV 1 coin video poker sounds like one of the worst Hobbies ever. But to each their own.
Agreed. What's the point.
Right now I'm considering a trip and a change of casinos, giving myself a break from the GN. A lot of the places on Freemont Street don't even advertise a page for the hosts. There's the Downtown Grand, the Plaza, and maybe a few other that are to down the totem pole.
I have had many hobbies in my life. Fishing, classic cars, even target shooting for a short while. I have never had a hobby where the requirement for enjoyment was to make a profit. I worked all my life so I could do what I want in retirement. I enjoy playing video poker. I could play all day every day for the rest of my life and be happy.Quote: AxelWolfIf I were to spend that much time on a hobby I would prefer to be one that could actually make money, do some good for others, or do some good for me physically or mentally.
Unfortunately, the casinos where I play have decided video poker players have become too good. Why else would they drop the odds so consistently? In return, I have decided to take up a seat in their casino playing 25 cents a hand. Compare my cost to play with 99% of the players at my casino and you may get my point in doing so. The players all around me are paying many times the amount of a royal flush to hit one. It does not make sense to me to pay $5K or more each year to sit in a casino when I can do the same thing for a few hundred.
"Fishing, classic cars, even target shooting for a short while."Quote: SingleCoinVPI have had many hobbies in my life. Fishing, classic cars, even target shooting for a short while. I have never had a hobby where the requirement for enjoyment was to make a profit. I worked all my life so I could do what I want in retirement. I enjoy playing video poker. I could play all day every day for the rest of my life and be happy.
Unfortunately, the casinos where I play have decided video poker players have become too good. Why else would they drop the odds so consistently? In return, I have decided to take up a seat in their casino playing 25 cents a hand. Compare my cost to play with 99% of the players at my casino and you may get my point in doing so. The players all around me are paying many times the amount of a royal flush to hit one. It does not make sense to me to pay $5K or more each year to sit in a casino when I can do the same thing for a few hundred.
Wow, you're really back-slid didn't you? It's almost like saying I used to be really into health and Fitness, but decided on crack as a hobby (it's okay, it's only one rock a day, 5 is a little too many for me) 😁
I respect and admire all those things you mentioned as a hobby.
In my opinion all those things are much more beneficial to one's life in multiple ways compared to playing one coin on video poker for as many hours that you suggest you do.
But as I said, to each their own.
If you are going to frequent a casino, you should figure out where you fit into their business plan. Personally, I am not a fan of gambling in general. I do enjoy playing video games. The fact that I might win some money does not motivate me. I enjoy the casino experience. I like seeing happy people have fun. I enjoy the drive over and back. I take the country back roads past cows and horses. It reminds me of old Florida when I was a boy. I like being with my friends. They play slots, I play video poker. None of us pays much to play. None of us loses a lot of money. We play the games, have fun, laugh, eat lunch and walk out happy.
My attitude toward playing video poker changed in retirement. That's probably because I play as much as I do. Your attitude may change as well. No matter how much money you have, you will always fear losing it.Quote: SOOPOOI'd say it has been maybe 6 times a year for 3-5 hours at my local casino. And 1-2 times a year for 3-5 nights in Vegas. Both will likely increase substantially now that I'm retired.
I know my comments are different than the average person who posts on this forum. When I go to the casino, I don't see professionals. I see retirees just like me all trying to enjoy the games without dinging their bank accounts.
Quote: SingleCoinVP...When I go to the casino, I don't see professionals. I see retirees just like me all trying to enjoy the games without dinging their bank accounts.
Me too, though I see some guys that think they're professionals.
We're looking for a new team member, someone, fun, interesting, and intelligent? What do you think...Quote: SOOPOOI'd say it has been maybe 6 times a year for 3-5 hours at my local casino. And 1-2 times a year for 3-5 nights in Vegas. Both will likely increase substantially now that I'm retired.
?😊
I believe every player should have all the information it takes to know what a trip to the casino is going to cost them long term. The games I play at the speed I play them have a negative EV of $4.50 an hour playing a quarter a hand. The same game at $1.25 a hand costs me $15 an hour to play. If I play the same game at $5 a hand, my expected cost is $60 a hour. This assumes I play 100% computer perfect and my jackpots appear on time.
I don't think everyone should play like I do. If you know the cost and you are OK with it, I think you should play whatever amount works for you. What I am against is going to the casino without all the information you need. From what I see on my trips, this is the norm.
I don't think most people go to the casino thinking they have an advantage. I bet most people would say "The casino always wins". There are people who believe you can somehow use a "quit while you're ahead" for the day/session system to win long term(some of them even know all the math on the games).Quote: SingleCoinVPWhen you don't know what it is costing you to go to a casino, what do most people do? They play like they have an advantage when they don't.
For the normal average person who gambles they believe they can get lucky and win at times, but deep down they know they are at a disadvantage and will probably lose unless they get lucky and win and then walk away.
Quote: SingleCoinVPThe best games are normally at the bar.
'
My years of experience suggests that this is NOT the case. Usually bar machines have the worst pay tables, to help pay for the easy access to the free cocktails.
I believe what you say is true. Most players don't expect to make a long term profit. Few of us are going to beat the casino. It's a matter of how much we are willing to pay to play. One of the nice things about video poker is you can adjust your cost to play.Quote: AxelWolfFor the normal average person who gambles they believe they can get lucky and win at times, but deep down they know they are at a disadvantage and will probably lose unless they get lucky and win and then walk away.
Playing video poker is an incredible bargain. When played accurately, the games I have to play have a 1-4% house edge. That's at least 3-5 times better than all the slots around me. I am involved in the decision making instead of watching the machine do it all. These days I go to the casino with $100. That won't buy a one person day ticket to Disney World. I often come home with at least that much. Over a year's time, it cost me a little to play. Where could I go and have that much fun for so little?
You're preaching to the choir when it comes to talking about the house advantage on video poker, I know it well. I have played games straight up that were 103% all the way up to 200%+ Advantage due to miss programming.Quote: SingleCoinVPI believe what you say is true. Most players don't expect to make a long term profit. Few of us are going to beat the casino. It's a matter of how much we are willing to pay to play. One of the nice things about video poker is you can adjust your cost to play.
Playing video poker is an incredible bargain. The games I have to play have a 1-4% house edge. That's at least 3-5 times better than all the slots around me. I am involved in the decision making instead of watching the machine do it all. These days I go to the casino with $100. That won't buy a ticket to Disney World. I often come home with at least that much. Over a year's time, it cost me a little to play. Where could I go and have that much fun for so little?
We are in a much different situation since my goal of playing video poker and other things is not normally for entertainment, but to gain an advantage. I might screw around here in there killing some time for one reason or another.
I don't even know how many hands of of video poker I played, it's certainly in the Millions. Honestly, I prefer not to have to involve making decisions. That just makes it a slower process that's prone to mistakes. I much prefer playing a fun slot machine with an advantage VS video poker game with an advantage( it's just so much easier, trust me). I guess there are some video poker games that can kind of be fun for a little while. With all the fancy graphics and bonuses the manufacturers have come up with on slots, slot seem more like a video game to me compared to video poker. Don't get me wrong, under the right circumstances if there's a good promotion that involves hitting particular hands on video poker I suddenly start to enjoy playing. There's a few situations where ultimate X is an advantage and I enjoy playing that for a while.
Assuming you want to play the best EV possible on a video poker machine, if you really think about it.... you're not really making any decisions. The correct strategy is doing that all for you and you are just using your skills to follow that strategy.
Unfortunately, new skill slot games are few and far between, however, there are some around that require skill that at times can be +EV.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
If you are going to frequent a casino, you should figure out where you fit into their business plan. Personally, I am not a fan of gambling in general. I do enjoy playing video games. The fact that I might win some money does not motivate me. I enjoy the casino experience. I like seeing happy people have fun. I enjoy the drive over and back. I take the country back roads past cows and horses. It reminds me of old Florida when I was a boy. I like being with my friends. They play slots, I play video poker. None of us pays much to play. None of us loses a lot of money. We play the games, have fun, laugh, eat lunch and walk out happy.
If you told me to list places where one could find "happy people having fun," it would take a long, long time before I mentioned a casino. After about 4 years straight of listing places... "wow... um, a burn unit. A Chinese sweatshop. A... casino?"
Particularly outside of major tourist spots. Yeah, someone who plays blackjack twice a year might legit be having happy fun time. But places where most players are regs are depressing AF. Watching the retirees play is a downer. People work all their lives to gain financial freedom and are fortunate enough to be born in the U.S. and that's the end result.
I gotta ask, what is so fun about VP? I wouldn't compare it to Candy Crush. I've dabbled in that and a few other dumb FB games. I actually got sucked into Mob Wars fairly hard back in the day. While those are wastes of time, they aren't so mindless. As you play, new levels are uncovered and it feels like you are making progress from one day to the next. You are making decisions and developing your own strategy. You compete with other players.
You could play Words With Friends or something, or for that matter Gin against your friends for money. Plus you'd be playing the game WITH them and actually interact. And you'd not donate to a casino.
With VP, the same thing happens again and again. 5 cards are picked at random from a deck. You try to remember what to do from a list of rules someone else invented. Then you get 0-5 more random cards from a deck.
It's surprising that you enjoy exploring back roads and looking at the animals and stuff. My first thought regarding someone who likes to see the numbers 1-52 rearanged again and again and again and again would be that they are on the spectrum or otherwise limited in such a way that they could not appreciate such things.
Gambling is not why we go to the casino. My friends and I like to get together once a week and ride over to the casino. None of us is under the illusion that we are going to beat the casino. We enjoy the ride over and back. We talk about our lives and the businesses we ran. Once in a while someone hits a jackpot and makes a few hundred dollars. We are all happy for him. Instead of sitting around watching Fox News all day, we get out of the house. Playing video poker in a beautiful air conditioned casino is pleasurable, unless you make it painful.
I tried to beat the casino for years. I paid for my mistakes. Today, I play as much video poker as I want and I don't come home depressed. The casino wants me to play bigger. My mailbox is full of offers for free stuff that's not worth what it costs to win. When I lose $100 at the casino, I smile because I know it could have been much worse.
Quote: AxelWolfWe're looking for a new team member, someone, fun, interesting, and intelligent? What do you think...
about about asking the Mrs. if she wants to join.
?😊
Geez Axel.... I already set up my ex-wife to help your team, and now you want my new wife as well? It is 'possible" I'll do something with you next time I come to Vegas..... I am unemployed now.....
I've haven't been to a casino in 2019 yet. But I look forward to going.
#GETTHEENTIREFAMILYQuote: SOOPOOQuote: AxelWolfWe're looking for a new team member, someone, fun, interesting, and intelligent? What do you think...
about about asking the Mrs. if she wants to join.
?😊
Geez Axel.... I already set up my ex-wife to help your team, and now you want my new wife as well? It is 'possible" I'll do something with you next time I come to Vegas..... I am unemployed now.....
In the past, that number was much higher than it is today. When I lost more than $500, it depressed me. I was depressed a lot more than I was happy. I won thousands of dollars. I came home from Biloxi once with $14K in my pocket and three W2-Gs. I framed them and put them on the wall in my office where they remain today.
Some forum members don't like it when I talk about my struggles with losing. Learning to accept losing is a big part of video poker. It affects some players more than others. I have read comments from video poker experts who claim they aren't bothered by losing. Pain is how your body keeps you safe from harm. Turn it off and you accept the consequences both good and bad.
Today, I am at peace with video poker and the casino. I have a good time without the depression that comes with losing. It's all good.
Quote: SOOPOOI'd say it has been maybe 6 times a year for 3-5 hours at my local casino. And 1-2 times a year for 3-5 nights in Vegas. Both will likely increase substantially now that I'm retired.
So now that you're retired, now you can go to work.
Enjoy!
Quote: SingleCoinVPFor me, that number is the amount I can lose and still walk out with a smile.
Smiling is overrated.
Quote: bobbartopSo now that you're retired, now you can go to work.
Enjoy!
I won't classify it as work. I may have played with an advantage occasionally, but I'm not an AP.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
Some forum members don't like it when I talk about my struggles with losing. Learning to accept losing is a big part of video poker. It affects some players more than others. I have read comments from video poker experts who claim they aren't bothered by losing.
If by experts you mean AP'S they don't worry about losing because daily results do not matter. If they have an advantage they will win over time. Of course they don't win each day so why would they be upset about losing? What happens today means nothing.
Advantage Players are human beings and have emotions (at least most of them do). Everyone has a different tolerance levels but I don't really know any advantage player that doesn't feel the sting of losing once in awhile.Quote: vegasIf by experts you mean AP'S they don't worry about losing because daily results do not matter. If they have an advantage they will win over time. Of course they don't win each day so why would they be upset about losing? What happens today means nothing.
losing sucks, but Advantage Players are much more tolerant and ambivalent to losing than the average person. They know it's part of the game and they are able to move on without dwelling on it. And I would say for the most part they don't think about the average day-to-day swings they have while playing normal things that are well within their bankroll.
Some Advantage Players are very concerned about the proper bankroll management. Taking a big hit to your bank roll can limit what you can safely play in the future. You never know when something will come up that you should be investing as as much as you can, within reason. Not having that money to invest can seriously cut into your earning potential. There are many times where I regret not investing more on the particular play, but on the flip side, there are times where I was glad I didn't invest more (Especially on sure thing MMA fight tips🤦♂️).
For the most part, with a very few exceptions, when it comes to Advantage players who seemed to have almost no fear of losing it hasn't worked out too well for them. And then there are guys who have too much fear of losing. Those guys never seem to advanced the bankroll since they're not willing to get when they should during the juicy plays that come up. No doubt I have over-invested a few times, but for the most part, I admit I'm guilty of under playing my bankroll for the most part.
There are other factors besides the math that come into play when deciding how much to invest in something. One of the main factors I have come across is the potential of not getting paid from the casino during a juicy promotion such as a loss rebate/multi step promotion/some angle that might not go over well with the casino.
Quote: SingleCoinVPThis means I play about a quarter millions hands of VP each year.
Quote: SingleCoinVPPlaying single coin quarters can get boring, so I use a simple system to switch to max coins when I'm ahead. This works for me and creates a high variance game inside of a relatively mild game. So far this year, I'm even with the casino.
That means an estimated 198,000 hands so far this year (9.5 ÷ 12 x 250,000). To still be even after that many hands against a 96% game, I think there is a possibility you have discovered a betting system that does overcome the house edge. Can anyone tell us the probability of being even or ahead after 198,000 hands of a 7/5 jacks-or-better video poker game, without changing the bet size. (or possibly 8/5 with a 250-for-1 royal flush payout).
I am not an Advantage Player. Yet my attitude to losses is comparable to what you describe.Quote: AxelWolfAdvantage Players are much more tolerant and ambivalent to losing than the average person. They know it's part of the game and they are able to move on without dwelling on it. And I would say for the most part they don't think about the average day-to-day swings.
Hence, I suggest that it is not a trait of AP as much as it is a trait of ‘rational’ (as opposed to ‘emotional’) players. Losses are going to be compensated by gains, period.
Zero, because it didn't happen.Quote: TomGThat means an estimated 198,000 hands so far this year (9.5 ÷ 12 x 250,000). To still be even after that many hands against a 96% game, I think there is a possibility you have discovered a betting system that does overcome the house edge. Can anyone tell us the probability of being even or ahead after 198,000 hands of a 7/5 jacks-or-better video poker game, without changing the bet size. (or possibly 8/5 with a 250-for-1 royal flush payout).
Quote: rsactuary'
My years of experience suggests that this is NOT the case. Usually bar machines have the worst pay tables, to help pay for the easy access to the free cocktails.
I agree with rsactuary, that that is not the case. But a good portion of my play has been at bars. There are diamonds in the rough.
If I had a casino, I would certainly "set a trap" for drinkers. I might put a good game in at the bar, but not without some 8-5 DDB for the drinkers who don't pay attention to paytables. In fact, and I'm just guessing, but I bet I could put in only two games at the bar, NSU 99.7, and 8-5 DDB, and they'd get equal play. I'm just sayin.
Using the Bankroll Analysis tool in Video Poker for Winners, I looked at one-coin 8/5 Jacks or Better. It showed the Game Return as 96.064%. It only shows the probability of profit or loss to the hundredths of a percent, so the infinitesimal exponential odds cannot be precisely calculated this way. However, to the limits of the tool, AxelWolf's "calculation" is correct.Quote: TomGThat means an estimated 198,000 hands so far this year (9.5 ÷ 12 x 250,000). To still be even after that many hands against a 96% game, I think there is a possibility you have discovered a betting system that does overcome the house edge. Can anyone tell us the probability of being even or ahead after 198,000 hands of a 7/5 jacks-or-better video poker game, without changing the bet size. (or possibly 8/5 with a 250-for-1 royal flush payout).
After 39,000 hands, the probability of profit was 0.05%. At 46,000, it had dropped to 0.02%. At 48,200, we were down to 0.01%. I wasn't watching the application when the probability went to 0.00%, but it was there at 56,487 hands. Obviously, it would be a few orders of magnitude lower at 198,000, but any more precision than 0.00% is beyond the capability of this rather simple method of calculation.
Clearly any positive results were based on being lucky when playing something other than single coin, since hundreds of thousands of hands at single-play single-coin 96% video poker virtually guarantees negative results. A corollary to this would be to simply make the other non-single-coin bets, skip the monotonous single-coin portion of the trips, and find an alternative use of time with a lower opportunity cost. Again any profits over long time periods as described herein must be based on other than the single-coin betting.
I am always struggling with my discipline. It's something I am working on. My wife plays the same games as I do and always bets $1.25 a hand. I hit a few W2-Gs each year. She has never had one. Her cost to play is much less than mine. I try to play like her, but it's a struggle.
Quote: rsactuary'
My years of experience suggests that this is NOT the case. Usually bar machines have the worst pay tables, to help pay for the easy access to the free cocktails.
It depends in my experience. Also in jurisdictions where you have to pay for drinks, bartop paybacks are more in line with the rest of the floor.
Heck, I hit these at the Downtown Grand Bar last week. And I wasn't vulturing the last UX hit either. I was intending to quit my session.
Pic to remind us it's 9/6 DDB UX
Quote: bobbartopI agree with rsactuary, that that is not the case. But a good portion of my play has been at bars. There are diamonds in the rough.
If I had a casino, I would certainly "set a trap" for drinkers. I might put a good game in at the bar, but not without some 8-5 DDB for the drinkers who don't pay attention to paytables. In fact, and I'm just guessing, but I bet I could put in only two games at the bar, NSU 99.7, and 8-5 DDB, and they'd get equal play. I'm just sayin.
Yeah I'm not totally sure why casino bars offer DDB games near the top of their payback range. The DDB addict doesn't care about the paytable. I probably do what Cosmo does if I was a strip casino. Quarter 8/5 DDB (or maybe even 7/5) and 6/5 Super DDB for those that care about EV.
Thanks for the calculation confirmation(calculation, I don't need no stinking calculation). Now add in strategy mistakes and button errors and we're riding that into that 18 year yo's in a row territory. 🤔Quote: drrockUsing the Bankroll Analysis tool in Video Poker for Winners, I looked at one-coin 8/5 Jacks or Better. It showed the Game Return as 96.064%. It only shows the probability of profit or loss to the hundredths of a percent, so the infinitesimal exponential odds cannot be precisely calculated this way. However, to the limits of the tool, AxelWolf's "calculation" is correct.
After 39,000 hands, the probability of profit was 0.05%. At 46,000, it had dropped to 0.02%. At 48,200, we were down to 0.01%. I wasn't watching the application when the probability went to 0.00%, but it was there at 56,487 hands. Obviously, it would be a few orders of magnitude lower at 198,000, but any more precision than 0.00% is beyond the capability of this rather simple method of calculation.
Clearly any positive results were based on being lucky when playing something other than single coin, since hundreds of thousands of hands at single-play single-coin 96% video poker virtually guarantees negative results. A corollary to this would be to simply make the other non-single-coin bets, skip the monotonous single-coin portion of the trips, and find an alternative use of time with a lower opportunity cost. Again any profits over long time periods as described herein must be based on other than the single-coin betting.
Quote: AxelWolfZero, because it didn't happen.
Phil's formula for success is quite documented.
After many hands of single coin quarter play he ups his bet to five coins on dollars and hits a big hand. He then reverts to single quarters. It's downright ingenious.
Quote: bobbartopI agree with rsactuary, that that is not the case. But a good portion of my play has been at bars. There are diamonds in the rough.
If I had a casino, I would certainly "set a trap" for drinkers. I might put a good game in at the bar, but not without some 8-5 DDB for the drinkers who don't pay attention to paytables. In fact, and I'm just guessing, but I bet I could put in only two games at the bar, NSU 99.7, and 8-5 DDB, and they'd get equal play. I'm just sayin.
No way, the DDB would get 80% of the play. I work with bars and their gaming everyday. What surprises me most is now Keno tends to be the most played game on most bar machine in Las Vegas. Keno with an 8% hold and the poker games average around 4% hold.
Thanks for the kind comments. I never claimed I had a strategy for beating the casino. I leave that up to the experts. However, I have beat the casino over long periods of time. This happens when you play VP as cheap as dirt and hit a few lucky big coin jackpots. After millions of hands, I believe the most financially beneficial long term strategy is to stick with the same bet all the time. If you play negative games like I do, the more money you put through the machines the more it costs you.Quote: billryanPhil's formula for success is quite documented.
After many hands of single coin quarter play he ups his bet to five coins on dollars and hits a big hand. He then reverts to single quarters. It's downright ingenious.
