New Table Game - 10 Hand Hold 'Em

This might take a while...

On my latest trip to Ameristar St. Charles on Sunday, I saw a new table game - "10 Hand Hold 'Em" from Chicago Gaming Concepts, Inc.

You've got to hand it to Ameristar. They'll pretty much put any table game on their floor. I love that about them. Shameless plug for Paigowdan's no commission pai gow which is going very very strong over there. (That table is impossible to get a spot on, while every other Pai Gow table always has openings)

So the latest Ameristar innovation, the first game you see when you walk over to the pit is "10 Hand Hold 'Em". This is a complete carnival game, with no strategy whatsoever. I'm guessing house edge at around 5-7%.

The game is probably impossible to explain, but I'll try. There are 10 2-card starting pocket hold 'em hands on a table layout.

Hand 1 - As, Ah - 8-1 Payout
Hand 2 - 3s, 3h - 8-1 Payout
Hand 3 - 6s, 6d - 7-1 Payout
Hand 4 - 9h, 9c - 6-1 Payout
-------------------
Hand 5 - 10h, Jh - 5-1 Payout
Hand 6 - Ks, Qs, - 7-1 Payout
Hand 7 - 7d, 8d - 7-1 Payout
Hand 8 - 4c, 5c - 7-1 Payout
-------------------
Hand 9 - Ac, Kd - 20-1 Payout
Hand 10 - 2d, 7c - 25-1 Payout

Those 20 cards are removed from a standard 52 card deck, leaving 32 cards in the shuffler. 5 cards are taken from the shuffler, and put on the table. Whichever of the 10 hands makes the best overall 5 card hand with the 5 community cards is the winner.

There are 6 spots on the table to bet from. You can bet on any or all of the 10 hands, or on the groups of hands 1-4, 5-8, 9-10. Betting on 1-4 pays 1-1. Betting on 5-8 pays 1-1. Betting on 9-10 pays 12-1.

I hope I explained this well. I wonder if anyone actually cares.

Anyway, if you're looking for a game with dealer errors, this is it. I played 5 hands, and the dealer picked the wrong winning hand twice. It is very difficult to think through all 10 hands, and pick the right winner.

I don't think this game will have a long life, simply because there is no skill. The dealer's called this game "Roulette Hold 'Em". It takes no skill, but I guess the 25-1 longshot payout is nice.

If I had to guess, I'd say the 4-5 suited connector and the 7-8 suited connector are the best bets, but that's just a total guess. Maybe the pocket 3's or 6's...

Whoever wants to run the numbers on this thing, have fun. I don't think I'll play it again. Although once again, I do applaud Ameristar for putting it out there.

This is the link: http://www.chicagogamingconcepts.com/index.php

That's very, very interesting. Thanks for the info. And please (everyone) keep the new game sightings coming. I love reading about them.

Update: The Wizard's Texas Hold'em calculations gives the following probabilities:

Hand 1 - As, Ah - 8-1 Payout, 10.04% win, 0.35% tie
Hand 2 - 3s, 3h - 8-1 Payout, 9.85% win, 0.02% tie
Hand 3 - 6s, 6d - 7-1 Payout, 11.20% win, 0.02% tie
Hand 4 - 9h, 9c - 6-1 Payout, 13.30% win, 0.02% tie
-------------------
Hand 5 - 10h, Jh - 5-1 Payout, 14.98% win, 0.02% tie
Hand 6 - Ks, Qs, - 7-1 Payout, 10.96% win, 0.42% tie
Hand 7 - 7d, 8d - 7-1 Payout, 10.45% win, 0.85% tie
Hand 8 - 4c, 5c - 7-1 Payout, 12.09% win, 0.02% tie
-------------------
Hand 9 - Ac, Kd - 20-1 Payout, 3.19% win, 0.75% tie
Hand 10 - 2d, 7c - 25-1 Payout, 2.36% win, 0.85% tie

So I agree with the characterization that this is like "roulette hold'em". But that begs the question -- if this game structure isn't quite right, what could be done to improve it? Fewer hands? More variability in win %? Some strategic decision like whether to raise or fold?

EDIT #It would appear I have been beaten to it!

There are 201,376 different outcomes. Values are EV

Hand 1 - As, Ah - 8-1 Payout 10.211% (tie possible)
Hand 2 - 3s, 3h - 8-1 Payout 9.856%
Hand 3 - 6s, 6d - 7-1 Payout 11.199%
Hand 4 - 9h, 9c - 6-1 Payout 13.297%
-------------------
Hand 5 - 10h, Jh - 5-1 Payout 14.981%
Hand 6 - Ks, Qs, - 7-1 Payout 11.164% (tie possible)
Hand 7 - 7d, 8d - 7-1 Payout 10.868% (tie possible)
Hand 8 - 4c, 5c - 7-1 Payout 12.087%
-------------------
Hand 9 - Ac, Kd - 20-1 Payout 3.559% (tie possible)
Hand 10 - 2d, 7c - 25-1 Payout 2.777% (tie possible)

I don't know how you improve it, I want to know how and why the ten hands were chosen like that.

Quote: WizardofEngland

I don't know how you improve it, I want to know how and why the ten hands were chosen like that.

I don't know either, but having four different hands that all pay 7-1 seems like a bad idea. Like going to a Chinese buffet and having four different kinds of fried rice. It's just too much of the same thing, and it dilutes the rest of the game. At a minimum, I'd think you could reduce it to four or five hands and achieve a similar result. I'm just not sure how to turn this into something other than a cross between hold'em and War. Maybe it doesn't need to be. FinsRule: did you ask how the game was doing? Was the game crowded when you were there?

I like the bet on 2-7 offsuit, though. That's cute.

what about when the five cards are dealt, they also deal the three burn cards like you would get in real texas holdem. then the burn cards are shown before you place your bet? Would need some tweaking on the initial odds, but at least then there is some strategy.

So now, what happens when a rainbow ace-high straight hits the board? It seems like it would be a 10-way tie. Do all spots get paid at their given odds?

What if there's a 2-way tie?

What if two hands tie that are in different sections? Would both sections pay off at their given odds?
Granted, I haven't studied the different sections too hard to see if that is even possible. Every rank is accounted for in the 10 hands, so ties would seem to be few and far between.

Well, now I feel really dumb for not taking the extra step and putting it through a hold 'em calculator. I'll answer the questions that were asked (including my own)

1. A tie is a win for any of the hands involved in the tie.
2. It looks like the 4,5 suited connector is the best one hand bet in the game, I'll use that term loosely.
3. If Math Extremeist's math is right, The "Bet all suited connector" bets is actually ONE OF THE BEST BETS IN THE CASINO. I'm not sure how many ties cancel each other out, but just using the 7,8 tie, and ignoring the rest, this bet has a 49.33% chance of winning. Meaning that the bet has at the most about a 1.33% house edge.
4. How to improve the game - I think a raise or fold after the flop would make this game playable.
5. I didn't ask how the game was doing because I pretty much knew. The table was almost completely empty the entire 2 hours I was there. The rest of the tables were pretty full.

Very interesting stuff - but I'm not gonna play it.

Quote: Dween

So now, what happens when a rainbow ace-high straight hits the board? It seems like it would be a 10-way tie. Do all spots get paid at their given odds?

What if there's a 2-way tie?

Given that every rank is shown at least once, I don't think ties are possible, except for the rare 10-way tie.

And there's only two ways to do that: Ace high flush, or Ace high straight. And, since there is only one Ace left in the deck, that lowers the possibility of that happening.

Note that if you add the odds from the Wiz' calculator, there's a 98.42% chance of someone winning. However, if you add the odds indicated for ties, that comes to 3.32%. I think there's a rounding or other math error there.

Also interesting, there are only 5 hands that can create a bad bet qualifying hand. You can create quad 3's, 6's and 9's as well as Straight Flush: Ks high and Jd high.

Quote: WizardofEngland

I don't know how you improve it, I want to know how and why the ten hands were chosen like that.

There are a couple assumptions:

A-A is widely known as the best starting hand, while 7-2 offsuit is the worst. Obviously, you'd want those in the mix.

To reduce the chance of a 10-way tie, you want to remove 3 of the Aces, as well as one of each rank. Leaving all four of one rank means the slim chance of quads on board means the two hands with aces tie.

Unless you want to leave the deck with an unqual number of cards per suit, you gotta have an even number of betting hands.


I've been playing around with this in the Wiz' calculator, and on paper.

As far as I've been able to tell, you can't achieve all those goals with less than 10 hands.

Wow, I saw your blog and went to the Ameristar St. Charles to play this game. I haven't been there in awhile but this seemed like too much fun to not give it a try. And man am I glad I went. I won $1,600 within 30 minutes of playing. gave a little back but ended up winning over $1,000 in like a little over an hour. I just kept betting the suited connectors, big money hands and aces. If any of those 7 hands won, I won money. Sometimes I even bet 9's too. I had 8 of 10 hands covered and if any of them won, i won. So basically, I had an 80 percent chance to win every hand. I really don't know how this game could be in the houses advantage. I will be going back this weekend. They better keep this game their. I really need to make money to get my cardinals tickets this year. I love this casino!

It's nice seeing a post about something so close to me. I live 10 minutes from AMeristar but haven't been there in a while. This game sounds pretty interesting. Based on all the posts I've seen on this site,it seems like betting on the "suited connector" bet is by far the smartest bet in any casino. If it hits over 49% of the time, and all ties get paid in full, and there is as much dealer error as the one guy posted, then I don't understand why this game isn't jam packed with players betting on that.

I think the best strategy would be to bet on the suited connector and then hedge your bet on a couple of the other hands. IT seems to have worked for the last guy. I would bet on the hands that share a card (7-2,7-8 or ACE-King,ACE-ACE or ACE-King,King-Queen). That way in case they do split you would get paid in full on both.

EIther way, I'm gonna try playing it myself within the next couple days, I'll let you guys knowhow I did.

Im following up with my last post. I went out to play 10-Hand Hold'em and I stuck with the strategy that I mentioned last. I literally played for almost 3 hours straight and came up ahead 340. My swing went from down 260 to up almost 1200. I am hoping this game gets picked up becasuse I don't think people are aware how much this could be a player game. Even if the house edge on the other hands are high, just stick with the "suited connectors" and headge on a couple other hands, it works!!!

Is there a player advantage in this game? What are the table min and max?

There is not a player advantage in this game. And hedging is a dumb idea.

But, the "bet all suited connectors" bet seems to be one of the better bets in the casino, on par with the banker bet at baccarat or the pass/don't pass line in craps.

Minimum was $5, not sure what max was.

I get the following house edges in % for hands 1 to 10:

6.476442
11.16469
10.29318
6.82355
10.02801
8.97028
9.60194
3.18608
17.60637
16.56801

groups
1-4 10.5226
5-8 0.54426
9-10 7.27842

Of course they are subject to brainos and/or typos.

Thanks FinsRule and miplet. I can't fully grasp how the ties may cancel each other out, but in any event the even money bet on the second group does have an extraordinarily low house edge. I thought the two winners might have stumbled onto something really good, but it appears they just got lucky.

I'm going to St. Charles this weekend and I hope to find a seat at this game!

I'll be there friday for sure. There was a buzz going around the casino last time I was there. It's so much fun playing with a full table. It reminds me of a faster version of craps. And more exciting version of Roulette. But I love texas hold em more than dice or balls being thrown so this is THE GAME TO PLAY! I can't wait. Friday can't come soon enough. gottta make the mooola!

Has anyone else had any luck with the strategy of betting on "Suited Connectors" and aces bet? I really hope this game stays in, not only is it fun but I keep winning!!!

Have you calculated how much of your winnings is due to dealer mistakes?

Ties are only posible with straights and no flush possible, and full houses. Total ways out of 201376.
10 way tie: 32
two ways ties:
Hand 7 - 7d 8d and Hand 10 - 2d 7c: 1680
Hand 1 - As Ah and Hand 9 - Ac Kd: 670
Hand 9 - Ac Kd and Hand 6 - Ks Qs: 806

Couldn't there be ties with full houses too? if the cards were 7,7,4,4,3 wouldn't 78 and 72 both split? Same with the king in king queen and ace king. I think there are ties with straights and full houses.

Quote: gambletowin

Couldn't there be ties with full houses too? if the cards were 7,7,4,4,3 wouldn't 78 and 72 both split? Same with the king in king queen and ace king. I think there are ties with straights and full houses.

and yes I have gotten paid from dealer error a couple times, that's always nice!

Has anyone heard anything if Ameristar is going to keep this game?

Quote: gambletowin

Couldn't there be ties with full houses too? if the cards were 7,7,4,4,3 wouldn't 78 and 72 both split? Same with the king in king queen and ace king. I think there are ties with straights and full houses.

Yes there can be ties with full houses. My previous numbers included them.

Hold on guys. Luckily we have MathExtremist here who did an actual analysis of the game. None of the 'suited connector' bets comes even close to being a good bet. Hand 5, which you win or tie 15% of the time, pays 5 to 1. It should pay 5.67 to 1. Hand 6, which you win or tie 11.38% pays 7 to 1, should pay 7.79 to 1. Etc... It could be a positive EV game if there were a LOT of dealer errors, but, since other players are presumably betting on the other options, I would guess they would be protecting their hand and point out those errors than might have helped you.
I think the concept of the game is great. Poker players have idiosyncracies, and can bet them. (I love suited connectors... I love getting a set of low cards.... I love beating aces with my 2, 7 off...) If that wheel with the ball still exists and attracts customers, I see no reason why this can't make it. Also, on that super rare 10 way tie, imagine the exultation of the whole table.

SOOPOO, you are correct, not one of the single suited connector bets comes close to being a good bet.

BUT, you can bet "All Suited Connectors" at 1-1. That is a bet you have about a 49.3% chance of winning.

Quote: FinsRule

SOOPOO, you are correct, not one of the single suited connector bets comes close to being a good bet.

BUT, you can bet "All Suited Connectors" at 1-1. That is a bet you have about a 49.3% chance of winning.

Ok- you found a bet with a smaller, but not insignificant, house edge. The previous posters implied that they can 'beat' the game. It looks like you can beat this game at the same likelihood as beating craps by just playing the pass line. Meaning you can't.

Oh, yeah, don't listen to the previous posters. They're just trying to promote the game. They don't know what kind of board this is.

This game is not beatable. But, it is a $5 minimum game with a house edge comparable to baccarat. So I think for some people, this game has value.

Quote: FinsRule

SOOPOO, you are correct, not one of the single suited connector bets comes close to being a good bet.

BUT, you can bet "All Suited Connectors" at 1-1. That is a bet you have about a 49.3% chance of winning.

I only used someone else's HE odds calculator, but the numbers I came up with were 48.5% chance of winning and 1.3% chance of tie (assuming ties are independent, which they're not, so that's too high). Even if it were, that yields a minimum of 1.73% house edge. If ties overlap and the actual p(loss) is higher, that edge goes up.

49.3% is the chance of winning a pass bet, and the chance of a push is zero. I don't think this bet is as good as the pass bet. It's not bad for what it is, but it's not the pass bet. Plus, you don't get to throw the dice. :)

Math Extremist, in this game, in the case of a tie, your bet wins. So your chance of winning is slightly above 49.33%.

Quote: FinsRule

Math Extremist, in this game, in the case of a tie, your bet wins. So your chance of winning is slightly above 49.33%.

I get a 100140/201376 (49.727872238996 %) chance of winning for a house edge of 1096/201376 (0.5442555220086 %).

So how much of a player edge does that bring it to with dealer error, lol!!! I'd say at least a couple of percentage points. Has anyone else here tried playing the game?

Has anyone else tried playing this game? Do they have it anywhere besides Ameristar St. Charles?

Play roulette and cover 35 numbers

Quote: gambletowin

Has anyone else tried playing this game? Do they have it anywhere besides Ameristar St. Charles?

I was at Ameristar this afternoon & saw the table, but it wasn't open yet. No details were posted about minimum & maximum bets.

Update - I was at Ameristar Friday night, and they no longer have this game out on the floor.

.....

Or just no players...

(Sorry this is a very old post, but i found it while googling this game)

I used to work at Ameristar Casino..I now work at River City down in Lemay, MO

10 Hand Hold'em was kinda a mess..some dealers didnt know how to deal it...I did pretty well on it, never had an error, but there was a learning curve for dealers who are weak at Texas hold'em....

Surprisingly, it was very hard to explain to people..they had no idea what was going on...It had spurts of being busy, then itll die for the rest of the evening..always the first table to close..then they moved it to the weekend-only pit where it rotted and died.

Then it was replaced with Rabbit Hunter..which i don't even want to talk about haha

Quote: Givag327

(Sorry this is a very old post, but i found it while googling this game)

I used to work at Ameristar Casino..I now work at River City down in Lemay, MO

10 Hand Hold'em was kinda a mess..some dealers didnt know how to deal it...I did pretty well on it, never had an error, but there was a learning curve for dealers who are weak at Texas hold'em....

Surprisingly, it was very hard to explain to people..they had no idea what was going on...It had spurts of being busy, then itll die for the rest of the evening..always the first table to close..then they moved it to the weekend-only pit where it rotted and died.

Then it was replaced with Rabbit Hunter..which i don't even want to talk about haha

Hey, is Amir (sp?) still over at River City? Love that guy.

Six Card Poker is doing much better in the spot that 10-Hand Hold'em used to be at Ameristar. Six card poker has been there for over a year now I think.

Quote: FinsRule

Hey, is Amir (sp?) still over at River City? Love that guy.

Yup he still works there

Quote: tringlomane

Six Card Poker is doing much better in the spot that 10-Hand Hold'em used to be at Ameristar. Six card poker has been there for over a year now I think.

Yeah its very successful..but when I stopped working there I believe they were talking about removing it..but that was in April and i believe they still have it. So i guess that wont happen