Wizard
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Wizard
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:27:19 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Players agree ahead of the hand that they will play even money on a player bank. This means, if the banker wins, AFTER THE HAND IS DEAD, the banker will give back any player money won IN exchange for the 5% the banker had to pay for commission on it.



Thanks. I will ask some dealers here in Vegas if they see/allow it.

Here is how it breaks down for the player asking for the refund if they lose:

Lose 5%: 29.1%
Break even: 70.9%

Measured by the house edge, far from the worst bet I've ever seen, but the first voluntary bet I've ever seen where you can't win.

Also, I hate to ask, but I play PGP so little -- does the dealer set out a dead hand to empty chairs as in pai gow tiles?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:30:24 PM permalink
Every place I've seen does. I even asked about this a while back. PG Dan said it was most likely because of tradition.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Wizard
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Wizard
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:32:34 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Every place I've seen does.



So, couldn't it be argued that the player playing a pretend hand isn't actually changing who gets which cards?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:35:25 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Thanks. I will ask some dealers here in Vegas if they see/allow it.

Here is how it breaks down for the player asking for the refund if they lose:

Lose 5%: 29.1%
Break even: 70.9%

Measured by the house edge, far from the worst bet I've ever seen, but the first voluntary bet I've ever seen where you can't win.

Also, I hate to ask, but I play PGP so little -- does the dealer set out a dead hand to empty chairs as in pai gow tiles?



They almost always do. I've seen the occasional dealer who is so certain of hand placement for less than a full table that they will just pile the dead hands in front of the discard as they come out, but that's rare.

All.hands are always dealt out, whether they go in front of the players or not, and the last 4 cards are spread for the count (unseen) then burned.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
sodawater
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:36:30 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes, I've seen this lots of times. Do you know if there is a term for it?



I've always heard it referred to as "going with the banker."
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:58:32 PM permalink
FWIW, all based on personal experience.

Everywhere in MS allows and expects it, though no one is forced. IP Biloxi doesn't like it, but they go with the flow. I first ran into it at the Grand Biloxi in 1994, which is about when the game started there, and where I learned it.

AC, Show boat and AC Hilton allowed it, Harrahs, Caesar, Trump Marina and Taj did not . Can't remember which way Trop went.

Vegas, LV Hilton allowed it as a "look the other way" practice. Harrahs the same. Mirage doesn't care if you do. Golden Nugget does not allow it. IP did allow it.

Many players don't know about it, and are uncomfortable with it, until they lose a hand and get their money returned. Then the light dawns.

It's NEVER required or compulsory. Most people verify right when the player calls the bank each time, before cards are dealt . And no money should change hands until all cards are off the table after the player has banked. The house NEVER gets involved in enforcing it if someone reneges. It's all peer pressure.

It's also generally accepted if someone doesn't want to do it, even if others are. The banker is usually aware people don't have to agree to it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
TigerWu
TigerWu
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April 9th, 2018 at 6:17:32 PM permalink
I don't know about PGP, but with tiles it is common with Asian players to bank in order to "change the luck of the house." It's usually done after a huge house win. One of the (Asian) players will be the main bank, and the other players will co-bank with him/her. 99% of the time if a player is banking it's all the players against the house. It was pretty rare when I played for a player to bank and other players actually play against him. In fact, the only two times I saw it happen the player was just being a big jerk. Another time I tried to bank and the other (Asian) players didn't want to co-bank, so rather than play against me they just said they would sit out the hand. I've played with other Asians who didn't care when I banked, and they would ALWAYS co-bank with me.

So, yes, banking in Pai Gow while Asians are at the table is a very social event, and it's almost always the players teaming up against the house.
toastcmu
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April 9th, 2018 at 6:18:21 PM permalink
I'm surprised in my playing of PGP and Tiles that I have not run into this. My play tends to have me banking every other hand at an open table, and once superstitious people see that I am holding my own, I'm soon joined by 3-5 folks at the table. I have had the experience of co banking in tiles multiple times, but I think it's because I tend to follow the Asian superstition of only banking when I'm having a rough streak. I think also, because folks can tell that I'm half Asian makes up the other half. Between the two, by the time I am banking with other folks, they've observed enough of my tiles play and are willing to co-bank with me.

The best co-bank story I've had is playing at Aria once with a fellow named Carlos, who is apparently known to all the MGM folks - he banks for 10k a hand and asks me if I want to cobank with him! I chipped in my measly $25 at the time..... ;)

-T
Nathan
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April 9th, 2018 at 6:38:53 PM permalink
I have a question with this. I it unanimous/Take team down with you, or is it "Whoever wants to do it can do it? " Unanimous/take team down with you in Layman's terms,"One person doesn't want to do it so no one can do it. Let's say that there are 5 people who are willing to do the "Pay it forward," thing mentioned in this thread. Tom, Patty,Richard, Steven, and Joshua are playing. Richard says,"I don't want to do the Pay it forward thing." Dealer says, "Since Richard doesn't want to do the Pay it forward thing, no one can do the Pay it forward thing." As you can imagine, those four people who wanted to do it would most likely be pissed off at Richard. Or is it "Whoever wants to do the Pay it forward thing can do it," meaning no negative vote affects people who want to do it.
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beachbumbabs
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April 9th, 2018 at 6:44:08 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I don't know about PGP, but with tiles it is common with Asian players to bank in order to "change the luck of the house." It's usually done after a huge house win. One of the (Asian) players will be the main bank, and the other players will co-bank with him/her. 99% of the time if a player is banking it's all the players against the house. It was pretty rare when I played for a player to bank and other players actually play against him. In fact, the only two times I saw it happen the player was just being a big jerk. Another time I tried to bank and the other (Asian) players didn't want to co-bank, so rather than play against me they just said they would sit out the hand. I've played with other Asians who didn't care when I banked, and they would ALWAYS co-bank with me.

So, yes, banking in Pai Gow while Asians are at the table is a very social event, and it's almost always the players teaming up against the house.



The even money thing is the closest in PGP to co-banking tiles. you're trying to change the cards (the superstition goes), and banking moves them around the table. The machine doesn't know a player is banking until (and if) the info is entered after the cards are dealt (only seen a couple houses that are required to tell the shuffler this, but it gets entered after the deal).

But if the other players sit out, they miss a hand. If they play, it might be a big burden in the bankers br. So they all play together, and cheer the banker on, while hoping a good hand gets moved to them.

I banked rarely the first decade or so I played, IAW the superstition. Maybe once an hour. But we used to "iron-butt" PGP, 10-12-14 hr sessions. There was one trip, in 1 day, I banked 7 times, and 5 of those, I moved either a SF or, in 2 cases, a RF from either the dealer or a dead hand to a live hand, none of them mine. It was a very hot, exciting table that day, never been like that again. (Well, the one day I mentioned before with all the SF and 4OAK, but those went to me, not to others. That day was mostly head to head).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.

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