odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 9th, 2018 at 12:28:53 PM permalink
Tried my hand for the first time in a long time at Pai Gow Poker this weekend* and came across something I was not expecting, and got the worst of it. I haven't seen this particular thing mentioned in any thread here, in Wizard's PG Poker page, or for that matter the Tiles page either. At least I don't think it is the "Co-Banking" that is mentioned on the Tiles page [which I find hard to comprehend].

So I was playing and, I thought, finally able to bank at will since an Asian lady had just banked when it was just the two of us. When she banked, my bet pushed. She may have said something to me at first [I'll explain] but her English was so bad I was basically tuning her out and was just trying to be polite, pretty sure she was just throwing some conversation my way.

So I banked and evidently she said something like "OK, even money". She reduced her bet slightly to the table minimum of $15 that I was always betting and played two spots. One of these pushed and one I won; the dealer collected $15 from her and paid me and the bet I won against him, and took commission. As he went on to the next hand she said something I didn't get, and the dealer says to me that she is asking for her money back! So I am going 'what the ?' ... the short version is that the dealer says something like "the way the Asians play, they make an agreement to give the money they won from each other back to each other. That way the effect is only how you did against the dealer. They mostly bank to just change their luck. " Now, I am getting a little worked up, but was not being loud or abusive, and I'm just saying "I never heard of such a thing". He is getting worried and repeatedly says "it's just the way the Asians do it". So I ask her, are you going to be banking? and she says 'yes'. So I think it is going to be OK and pay her back the full $15. So when it is her turn to bank, guess what? She doesn't bank! I ask him what's going on and he just shrugs, getting worried again I think. Well! I stew for a while and finally I tell him "It's OK, forget it, but I have been hornswaggled!". I mutter it several more times, trying to make light of it. He says he is from Mexico and never heard that word before, so I taught him a new one [maybe some of you too].

I think I know now what Crockfords casino felt like after the Phil Ivey edge sorting incident!

I am very curious to hear what anyone else knows or has experienced with Asian players doing this ... and did you get manipulated?

* I'm working on a Biloxi trip report, it'll be a blog post, and there will be tons to talk about
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 9th, 2018 at 1:01:32 PM permalink
Hornswaggled ???? Yeah, I’ve heard the term. Always thought it was a redneck version of screwed.
Then I saw your Biloxi comment and it made me smile.


Regarding the PGP incident... never heard of anything like that. On the contrary, my experience is that the Asians will abstain from playing as a courtesy to the banking player. Of course, maybe it’s only a courtesy if the banker is Asian. Maybe you got hornswaggled....
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition.
SOOPOO
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ams288
April 9th, 2018 at 1:09:54 PM permalink
It sounds to me like the lady BEFORE you banked told you that her bet was not a real bet, but you just did not understand her. Even though you did not understand and you definitely had the right to not give her the $15, you did the correct thing by giving her the $15. I do not think it was this lady's intent to "Hornswoggle" you out of $15. I surmise the reason she stopped banking was that she picked up that you were unhappy with the arrangement. Consider the lost $15 charity.
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 9th, 2018 at 1:26:49 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Hornswaggled ???? Yeah, I’ve heard the term. Always thought it was a redneck version of screwed.
Then I saw your Biloxi comment and it made me smile.


Regarding the PGP incident... never heard of anything like that. On the contrary, my experience is that the Asians will abstain from playing as a courtesy to the banking player. Of course, maybe it’s only a courtesy if the banker is Asian. Maybe you got hornswaggled....

not playing makes sense. Why bet if you just expect the money back? what am i missing?

Quote: SOOPOO

It sounds to me like the lady BEFORE you banked told you that her bet was not a real bet, but you just did not understand her. Even though you did not understand and you definitely had the right to not give her the $15, you did the correct thing by giving her the $15. I do not think it was this lady's intent to "Hornswoggle" you out of $15. I surmise the reason she stopped banking was that she picked up that you were unhappy with the arrangement. Consider the lost $15 charity.

Definitely. As far as sensing I was unhappy, she might have sensed how happy I would be to get *my* money back losing to her and went ahead and banked herself. She had the opportunity for several hands. I quit playing pretty soon after, but only because my wife collected me.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Wizard
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April 9th, 2018 at 1:39:55 PM permalink
Good story. I don't play much pai gow poker but have played hundreds of hours of pai gow (tiles). In all that play, where player banking is common, I have never once seen this pretend betting against the banker to change things up. I hate to stereotype, but everyone knows Asian players can be very superstitious. When things are going good they oppose change and when bad they welcome anything that is perceived to mix things up a bit. So, while I haven't seen it, her request seems plausible to me.

I think you did the right think to pay her the $15. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to have a big incident over. Plus, I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt. I've seen some hustles at the tables, always involving an attractive woman, but I think this was a genuine misunderstanding due to a language gap.

This will make for a good Ask the Wizard question.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ibeatyouraces
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ams288
April 9th, 2018 at 1:45:52 PM permalink
You used to see a lot of "play for a push", where the player acting as banker would intentionally set the hand so that if would most likely result in a push with other players. This was common around here years ago when I played it a lot.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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April 9th, 2018 at 1:51:24 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Good story. I don't play much pai gow poker but have played hundreds of hours of pai gow (tiles). In all that play, where player banking is common, I have never once seen this pretend betting against the banker to change things up. I hate to stereotype, but everyone knows Asian players can be very superstitious. When things are going good they oppose change and when bad they welcome anything that is perceived to mix things up a bit. So, while I haven't seen it, her request seems plausible to me.

I think you did the right think to pay her the $15. That isn't enough, in my opinion, to have a big incident over. Plus, I believe in giving others the benefit of the doubt. I've seen some hustles at the tables, always involving an attractive woman, but I think this was a genuine misunderstanding due to a language gap.

This will make for a good Ask the Wizard question.



Mike, you must remember the last time we played tiles we bet with the player who was banking, not against him or her. In addition to the obvious advantage of winning on copy hands, it makes for a more friendly table. I've played with some Asian players who only want to do this when they want to 'change up the table', but also with others (like me) who always want to win on a copy hand.
And 100% agree with you on just giving her the $15.
beachbumbabs
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April 9th, 2018 at 3:23:25 PM permalink
Very surprised this is being received as new.

I've been doing it for almost 25 years. However, it is regional, not.understood everywhere, and some places don't allow it. Technically, they probably have a point.

Players agree ahead of the hand that they will play even money on a player bank. This means, if the banker wins, AFTER THE HAND IS DEAD, the banker will give back any player money won IN exchange for the 5% the banker had to pay for commission on it.

Same if it goes the other way. Payback for commission.

You play this way because the House pays any fortune or other side bet wins. You don't want to sit out a hand if the bonus is running good but a player is banking. Whether you sit out or not, the cards will go to the same places, because they deal them all out, so with even money, you make it less expensive to bank. You're only risking the amount you last bet against the dealers, and your sidebet.

Some casinos don't allow it. Some people, and in some regions, prefer to sit out anyway. Some casinos give you an indication they would rather not "know" you're doing it. And some openly allow or suggest it.

People.almost always drop to table minimums on a player bank. The exception is if you don't want a player to bank, you will bet big to discourage it (and not agree to even money).

If it's going on, a new player will get asked "even money"? Since she was banking, I'm surprised you didn't get asked. What were the results of her banking? Did she ask? Did you push? Or did she win your money without offering it back, then try to get it from you when you banked? Curious how that went.

Also curious the dealer intervened at all.

Edit: I went back and looked:you said she said something that you didn't understand, and then you pushed, so there was no even money needed on her bank.
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Apr 9, 2018
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
sodawater
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:12:36 PM permalink
This happens all the time when I bank and Asians are playing at the PG poker table.

They want to keep getting hands and betting the bonus, so they ask "me you no money OK?" -- to which I always reply "no, let it play normally."

That way there can be no misunderstanding when my banker hand is adjudicated.
Wizard
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April 9th, 2018 at 5:17:31 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Mike, you must remember the last time we played tiles we bet with the player who was banking, not against him or her.



Yes, I've seen this lots of times. Do you know if there is a term for it?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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