Place Bets across

I was in Vegas last week and saw a guy playing craps, making place bets this way. Instead of $64 across, $10 outside and $12 6&8, the bets were $5 4&10, $10 5 and 9 and $18 6&8 for a $66 total.

He called it 123 place betting and says he got his idea from the Wizard of Odds web site! His reasoning was since the 5&9 roll more than the 4&10, one must bet more, just as the 6&8 roll more often than the 5&9. He did very well, but the dealers did not like it one bit when he would bet $25 units and after a few hits go down to $66 across including the point.

Any one else play this way and what do you think!?

Quote: 7winner

The dealers did not like it one bit when he would bet $25 units and after a few hits go down to $66 across including the point.

Which casino is it that does not appreciate our business?

I found myself at the Golden Nugget downtown during the late morning. They have highest limits downtown but for an old man like myself they did a good job for my small pass line play. The guy place betting was even tipping but the dealers would sure make a comment about making them work a lot. It just seemed odd to hear stuff like that.

I tried betting across for awhile, but it's not for me. Honestly, I am kind of a compulsive gambler. I don't go to the casino often, but when I do I have to have a clear budget that I will NOT cross. That being said...

Aside from betting across having a low EV, it only really works when the table is hot. Let's say you bet 2x10/10/12 (in my experience, a much more common betting spread). That's $64 and requires you to hit anywhere from 4-6 of the numbers in order to recoup a 7-out. Although it may be really fun to hit 3 of them, you're probably going to 7-out before you can make all four. Just my experience and feeling with this betting scheme. The main problem is that a lot of people bet across then lower their bets, because of my compulsive nature I can't do that. So, yeah, just keep that in mind.

5/10/18? I gotta rattle that around.

In the meantime, I wrote about my experience today at Mohegan Sun and the new craps system I came up with, more or less, on the spot.

Here's the thread:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/1907-how-to-win-at-a-cold-craps-and-be-ready-when-it-turns-hot/

Quote: 7winner

I was in Vegas last week and saw a guy playing craps, making place bets this way. Instead of $64 across, $10 outside and $12 6&8, the bets were $5 4&10, $10 5 and 9 and $18 6&8 for a $66 total.

He called it 123 place betting and says he got his idea from the Wizard of Odds web site! His reasoning was since the 5&9 roll more than the 4&10, one must bet more, just as the 6&8 roll more often than the 5&9. He did very well, but the dealers did not like it one bit when he would bet $25 units and after a few hits go down to $66 across including the point.

There's a better reason to bet less as you go "outside": the HA gets much higher the farther from the middle of the table. It's 1.515% for 6/8, 4% for 5/9 and 6.67% for 4/10. In fact, the expected loss on a $5 4/10 is more than that on an $18 6/8, and it's even more on a $10 5/9. If you can go up to $20, then you can buy those numbers and most places are now collecting the vig only on a win. Depending on the casino, you may be able to buy for $30 and still pay only $1 vig.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

I have never understood the "betting across". I suppose it feels nice to have every point be a winner, but you are playing some fairly poor HA. Just bet the 6 & 8 as place bets, and the 4 & 10 as buy bets.

Quote: 7winner

I was in Vegas last week and saw a guy playing craps, making place bets this way. Instead of $64 across, $10 outside and $12 6&8, the bets were $5 4&10, $10 5 and 9 and $18 6&8 for a $66 total.

He called it 123 place betting and says he got his idea from the Wizard of Odds web site! His reasoning was since the 5&9 roll more than the 4&10, one must bet more, just as the 6&8 roll more often than the 5&9. He did very well, but the dealers did not like it one bit when he would bet $25 units and after a few hits go down to $66 across including the point.

Any one else play this way and what do you think!?

If you believe there will be a hot roll you would be better to buy the 6 and 8 for $20 each then put $10 in the field. AKA the "Iron Cross." Or my modified version since the true IC you bet the same on 6/8 and field.

My way you get $10 back on your bet every non-seven roll. So you have $50 out there total. You need 5 rolls to break even, actually a little less since your 6/8 will pay you a net of $14 after taking back your $10 field loss. Thus if you think the shooter will have a long roll you get something each roll until the seven.

Quote: AZDuffman

If you believe there will be a hot roll you would be better to buy the 6 and 8 for $20 each then put $10 in the field. AKA the "Iron Cross." Or my modified version since the true IC you bet the same on 6/8 and field.

My way you get $10 back on your bet every non-seven roll. So you have $50 out there total. You need 5 rolls to break even, actually a little less since your 6/8 will pay you a net of $14 after taking back your $10 field loss. Thus if you think the shooter will have a long roll you get something each roll until the seven.

Why would you buy the 6/8? Even if they collect only on a win, you're still worse off than placing them.
Also, how do you decide a hot roll is coming?
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

Why would you buy the 6/8? Even if they collect only on a win, you're still worse off than placing them.
Also, how do you decide a hot roll is coming?
Cheers,
Alan Shank

You wouldn't be worse off by getting the true odds. 6:5 is better than 7:6. Though I admit at the $20 level it is about a wash after the 5% vig.

How do you know a "hot roll" is coming up? If you believe in dice influencing you watch the shooter and use the 5-count, or form a team and bet on each other. If you don't believe in dice influencing you guess. It is a negative expectation game after all. But flip the freequency of the 7 form 1 in six to one in seven and then it is positive expectation.

Quote: AZDuffman

You wouldn't be worse off by getting the true odds. 6:5 is better than 7:6. Though I admit at the $20 level it is about a wash after the 5% vig.

It is not a "wash"; you are paying more. Figure it out.

Quote: AZDuffman

How do you know a "hot roll" is coming up? If you believe in dice influencing you watch the shooter and use the 5-count, or form a team and bet on each other. If you don't believe in dice influencing you guess. It is a negative expectation game after all. But flip the freequency of the 7 form 1 in six to one in seven and then it is positive expectation.

Do you think you can do that? Really?
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: AZDuffman

If you believe there will be a hot roll you would be better to buy the 6 and 8 for $20 each then put $10 in the field. AKA the "Iron Cross." Or my modified version since the true IC you bet the same on 6/8 and field.

No bet on the 5? Then it's not even a 'modified' Iron Cross!

Iron Cross has also been called "Anything but a 7."

Your version is "Anything but a 7 or 5."

Quote: pacomartin

I have never understood the "betting across". I suppose it feels nice to have every point be a winner, but you are playing some fairly poor HA. Just bet the 6 & 8 as place bets, and the 4 & 10 as buy bets.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

No bet on the 5? Then it's not even a 'modified' Iron Cross!

Iron Cross has also been called "Anything but a 7."

Your version is "Anything but a 7 or 5."

You are correct, I forgot to mentin the 5. Buy the 5/6/8 at two units and take the field for one unit. So you have 7 units up and need 7 rolls to break even less your "extra" winnings from the true odds.

Can't believe I forgot that.

I would take this instead of across since you still get paid on the 2/3/12 and invest less to cover all but the 7. But to each his own betting preference.

Quote: AZDuffman

I would take this instead of across since you still get paid on the 2/3/12 and invest less to cover all but the 7. But to each his own betting preference.

"But to each his own betting preference"

Yeah, you got that part right. That is the best part about craps. so many diff ways to bet...hands down over Blackjack.

Thank for the info and input. The Iron Cross and its variations is just 2 much of a grind for me. I want action and nothing beats going across. I see the last post mentioned Wincraps sims, Id like to see how $66 across betting 1,2,3 units out performs the traditional $64 across.

Im too old to learn to program computer stuff, but I can look at pretty girls...even at the craps table!

Quote: 7winner

"But to each his own betting preference"

Yeah, you got that part right. That is the best part about craps. so many diff ways to bet...hands down over Blackjack.

Thank for the info and input. The Iron Cross and its variations is just 2 much of a grind for me. I want action and nothing beats going across. I see the last post mentioned Wincraps sims, Id like to see how $66 across betting 1,2,3 units out performs the traditional $64 across.

Im too old to learn to program computer stuff, but I can look at pretty girls...even at the craps table!

It will "out-perform" $64 across, in the sense that your expected loss is less, because you are putting more $$ on lower-vig bets.

The same principle applies to "moving" money from the flat part of the line bets to the odds.

$25 pass, ev is -$.3535, SD $24.99
$ 5 pass, $25 odds, ev is -$.0707, SD $29.45, more variance for 1/5 the cost
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

It will "out-perform" $64 across, in the sense that your expected loss is less, because you are putting more $$ on lower-vig bets.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Ive been across place betting for 50 years and Alan you have just told me now I have a win win situation, so to speak.

$66 across makes so much better sense than placing $64 across since I'm betting 1)more on lower HA bets and 2)bets that have a higher win percentage. 6&8 win more often than 5&9 and the 4&10.

Ive been playing with Wincraps, I can see why you like the program, it is powerful on the programming side running simms.
I like the fact you can "see" that when you win, you do win more and when you lose you lose less. Cool stuff. Back to the craps table.
Of course craps dealers want to place $64 across because it is faster and easier for them instead of $66 across 123 units. But if I win more I can tip more, but will that offset the extra work the dealers have to make. Being an ex-dice dealer myself, I liked bets that were easier to place since I hated working too hard for my tips.
That is one reason why this old timer loves Rapid Craps.

Quote: 7winner

Ive been across place betting for 50 years and Alan you have just told me now I have a win win situation, so to speak.

$66 across makes so much better sense than placing $64 across since I'm betting 1)more on lower HA bets and 2)bets that have a higher win percentage. 6&8 win more often than 5&9 and the 4&10.

The next step, of course, is to eliminate the outside numbers, or buy them. The trend is toward collecting the vig only on wins, which makes a big difference, especially on the 4/10, because they are expected to win only 1/3 of the decisions. Also, find out at what bet amount the casino rounds up to the next dollar of vig and buy for the next lower unit. Compare:

place 4 for $20: ev: -$1.33, SD $26.40
buy 4 for $20, collected up front: ev: -$1, SD $26.94
buy 4 for $20, collected on win: ev: -$.33, SD $27.81
buy 4 for $30, $1 vig, collected on win: ev: -$.33, SD $41.96

The last one has an HA of just 1.11%, lower than placing the 6/8. Similar numbers for buying the 5/9, except you expect to pay the vig 40% of the time.

Collecting the vig only on winning bets really tips the scales away from lay bets to buy bets, because lay bets win more often than they lose.

Quote: 7winner

Ive been playing with Wincraps, I can see why you like the program, it is powerful on the programming side running simms.
I like the fact you can "see" that when you win, you do win more and when you lose you lose less. Cool stuff. Back to the craps table.

Yes, WinCraps is worth far more than it costs, and Steen is working on "WinCraps Pro", which will have multi-player play, so you can compare different bet strategies at the same time, with the same series of rolls. I don't know when that will be available.
Cheers,
Alan Shank

Quote: goatcabin

The next step, of course, is to eliminate the outside numbers, or buy them. The trend is toward collecting the vig only on wins, which makes a big difference, especially on the 4/10, because they are expected to win only 1/3 of the decisions. Also, find out at what bet amount the casino rounds up to the next dollar of vig and buy for the next lower unit. Compare:

place 4 for $20: ev: -$1.33, SD $26.40
buy 4 for $20, collected up front: ev: -$1, SD $26.94
buy 4 for $20, collected on win: ev: -$.33, SD $27.81
buy 4 for $30, $1 vig, collected on win: ev: -$.33, SD $41.96

The last one has an HA of just 1.11%, lower than placing the 6/8. Similar numbers for buying the 5/9, except you expect to pay the vig 40% of the time.

Collecting the vig only on winning bets really tips the scales away from lay bets to buy bets, because lay bets win more often than they lose.

Cheers,
Alan Shank

Great advice Alan. I would never eliminate the outside numbers, just not my style of play but the Buy bet makes perfect sense. That $30 Buy on the 4&10 looks nice from a HA point. One would need a much bigger bankroll than placing a 4 for $5 or $10.

My 100 sessions of 100 dice rolls in Wincraps doing what you suggested (place bets across) has yet to provide the perfect expected outcome. Variance has dominated! Wincraps breaks it all down for you. 100% of my sessions were within 2SD and 75% were within 1 SD. I guess that is to be expected on many short trials. and not one session produced the HA wincraps showed that was expected but a few were very close number and % wise.

Thanks again Alan, your posts and this site has been an instant success for me. Im 72, not very good with computers and hope to play 72 more years since I know now how to have the math work in your favor.

Quote: 7winner

"But to each his own betting preference"

Yeah, you got that part right. That is the best part about craps. so many diff ways to bet...hands down over Blackjack.

Thank for the info and input. The Iron Cross and its variations is just 2 much of a grind for me. I want action and nothing beats going across. I see the last post mentioned Wincraps sims, Id like to see how $66 across betting 1,2,3 units out performs the traditional $64 across.

Im too old to learn to program computer stuff, but I can look at pretty girls...even at the craps table!

Yes, each his own. I live for grinding it out. I figure that is how the casino earns so why not. Though it at least *feels* like I get more hardways with the rosebud-grip so maybe I will eventually throw a few cheques there and press the winnings.

Here is another question: has anyone here ever seen or gotten a "tip" from a big player for a good roll?

On the buy bets: I know for a fact that at least MGM properties allow you to make them at least up to $25, I didn't want to ask about $30 (paid on wins). A neat thing is that a $25 buy bet paid $49, which is a green+$24 or a green + 4 units of placing the 6/8. I mentioned this before when talking about my playstyle, I just think that it's a neat little trick that fits into what you guys are talking about.

I marvel at the lack of creativity and discipline exhibited by the posters here especially from those who are considered very very math and craps savy. Try these:

1. $64 across the board: Three rolls and down win, lose or draw. Afterall the average point is just under four rolls.

2. $64 across the board plus a $4 horn: Again three rolls and down. Any "premature" 7 out loses the bets otherwise the player wins, but IT TAKES DISCIPLINE. What about the "hot shooter"? Well, on a $5 table one could reduce the bets in half and play it out to the end.

3. $64 across the board and lay the point for $60: This provides the most for your money because an immediate 7 out nets the reverse odds win on the point but a small net loss, or an immediate point conversion and the lay loss which is less than the total of Place bets, or Place hits and a 7 out which will net a small win, or Place bet wins, point conversion which net even or so, or a long roll w/o a point conversion taking down the lay after six wins and winning lots especially with a point conversion.

4. Modified "iron cross": When the point is a 5, Place $26 on the 6 & 8 each with a $15 field bet plus lay the 5 for $60 or $66. Worst case scenario is the point is converted on the first roll, and the loss is $75 ($60 lay) other wise each roll is a $15 winner and a 7 out results in a partial loss or modified win depending on when it shows.

Overall if one plays to win using a disciplined approach to limited rolls and taking down bets which the rules allow, play will last much longer and success should happen more often.

One other thing: Some here have said that the dealers have given players a "hard time" when bets are brought down:
SCREW 'EM!!!! Play and have some fun.

tuttigym

Quote: AZDuffman

Here is another question: has anyone here ever seen or gotten a "tip" from a big player for a good roll?

Started a new thread for this question: