Who won the Raving's 2012 Best Table Game?
December 5th, 2012 at 10:19:38 PM
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This was voted for in the Table Game Conference recently, right?
December 7th, 2012 at 12:25:37 PM
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I was only there on Sunday but heard from that the results were:
1) High Card Flush (Galaxy's newly acquired game that is being played in Laughlin)
2) Horse Racing Derby (this was the suit based drawing game with each suit advancing one of four horses to the finish line. It was at G2E in '11 & '12)
3) Player's Choice BJ (get three cards initially, and split them in to two hands, one card used in both hands other used only in one of the hands)
1) High Card Flush (Galaxy's newly acquired game that is being played in Laughlin)
2) Horse Racing Derby (this was the suit based drawing game with each suit advancing one of four horses to the finish line. It was at G2E in '11 & '12)
3) Player's Choice BJ (get three cards initially, and split them in to two hands, one card used in both hands other used only in one of the hands)
December 7th, 2012 at 12:42:06 PM
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Almost,
High Card Flush #1, Player's Choice 21 #2, Horse Racing Derby #3.
High Card Flush #1, Player's Choice 21 #2, Horse Racing Derby #3.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
December 7th, 2012 at 12:49:29 PM
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Quote: Paradigm2) Horse Racing Derby (this was the suit based drawing game with each suit advancing one of four horses to the finish line. It was at G2E in '11 & '12)
Hmmm.... I think this is the game that Miplet and I played together at G2E 2011.
As I recall, we thought it was fun - while the game's inventor was running the game. He was very enthusiastic, and making calls that sounded like a horse race announcer's banter. When he took a break and the quiet dealer took over, it got very boring, very quickly.
We concluded that the game would fail if it didn't have a good dealer.
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December 7th, 2012 at 1:03:49 PM
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Was this the one that the Aussies had, exactor bet, etc ?
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Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
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The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 7th, 2012 at 1:07:28 PM
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Winners of Casino Journal’s Best New Table Games of 2012 Competition Announced
1st Place
High Card Flush by Galaxy Gaming
2nd Place
Player's Choice 21 by Renegade Table Games
3rd Place
Racing Card Derby by Racing Card Derby
RACING CARD DERBY™ brand table game has proved itself in the world’s biggest market – Nevada and is now approved for use in Nevada . ???
1st Place
High Card Flush by Galaxy Gaming
2nd Place
Player's Choice 21 by Renegade Table Games
3rd Place
Racing Card Derby by Racing Card Derby
RACING CARD DERBY™ brand table game has proved itself in the world’s biggest market – Nevada and is now approved for use in Nevada . ???
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 7th, 2012 at 1:13:05 PM
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Quote: BuzzardWas this the one that the Aussies had, exactor bet, etc ?
Yes, Buzz that is the one!
DJ & Mips were playing it at G2E in '11 and it is where I first met both of them.
December 7th, 2012 at 1:15:21 PM
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The irony of Galaxy winning again this year is the fact that they don't really need the field trial that is offered as the 1st place prize!
December 7th, 2012 at 1:23:35 PM
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I do like Galaxies " Invitation to Innovation "
http://www.galaxygaming.com/game-submission/
All the usual boiler plate of course, but hopefully first to patent now offers more protection that first to invent ? ? ?
http://www.galaxygaming.com/game-submission/
All the usual boiler plate of course, but hopefully first to patent now offers more protection that first to invent ? ? ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 7th, 2012 at 1:50:26 PM
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Eliot, Do you like the #1 game? May be you can only speak analytically...Quote: teliotAlmost,
High Card Flush #1, Player's Choice 21 #2, Horse Racing Derby #3.
December 8th, 2012 at 6:48:17 PM
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Quote: BuzzardWinners of Casino Journal’s Best New Table Games of 2012 Competition Announced
1st Place
High Card Flush by Galaxy Gaming
2nd Place
Player's Choice 21 by Renegade Table Games
3rd Place
Racing Card Derby by Racing Card Derby
RACING CARD DERBY™ brand table game has proved itself in the world’s biggest market – Nevada and is now approved for use in Nevada . ???
I had two horses in the race and they finished #1 and #2. I wonder if it's too late to patent the phrase "The Mathematician of Champions"??
Serious note, they are both excellent games in my opinion. I hope that with the prize not being necessary for High Card Flush, that Shufflemaster takes a serious look at Player's Choice 21.
December 8th, 2012 at 8:58:03 PM
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And as usual my horse finished third. Somethings never change !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 9th, 2012 at 8:10:58 AM
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Quote: CRMousseauI had two horses in the race and they finished #1 and #2. I wonder if it's too late to patent the phrase "The Mathematician of Champions"??
Serious note, they are both excellent games in my opinion. I hope that with the prize not being necessary for High Card Flush, that Shufflemaster takes a serious look at Player's Choice 21.
Charles, nice job. I believe if I send my next game to you for the math, my chance of winning something will increase exponentially, I do.
About High Card Flush, I have these questions:
1) If I have a 3-card straight flush and the dealer has a 4-card regular flush, who wins? My "poker" hand is higher, right?
2) If out of my 5-card flush, there is an embedded 3-card straight flush, do I still get a 3-card straight flush bonus?
3) I think with the same bank roll, HCF let you play longer just because it takes more time to squeeze 7 cards than 3 cards. Right?
December 9th, 2012 at 9:19:34 AM
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Quote: UCivanCharles, nice job. I believe if I send my next game to you for the math, my chance of winning something will increase exponentially, I do.
Well, granted I'm playing that up for a bit of fun; I do intend to approach Raving next year and offer to give a talk, however, and I think this fact will prove very useful in convincing them that I'm worth their time and money.
Quote:About High Card Flush, I have these questions:
1) If I have a 3-card straight flush and the dealer has a 4-card regular flush, who wins? My "poker" hand is higher, right?
The dealer's hand wins. Any four-card flush outranks any three-card flush. Straight flushes only matter for the bonus payout.
Quote:2) If out of my 5-card flush, there is an embedded 3-card straight flush, do I still get a 3-card straight flush bonus?
Absolutely correct.
Quote:3) I think with the same bank roll, HCF let you play longer just because it takes more time to squeeze 7 cards than 3 cards. Right?
... Yes and no; on one hand, it does take longer to play a round, not just for the reasons you pointed out, but because it's not as easy for the dealer to quickly find the best hand out of seven cards. When I played this in Laughlin, often times I'd see the dealer set up a three-card flush as their hand, only to notice they had a higher one in another suit. On the other hand, the ability to make a multi-unit raise on your best hands results in (I believe, need to double check) a higher average bet size per round than a game like 3 Card Poker.
December 11th, 2012 at 1:53:35 PM
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High Card Flush is an excellent game and I believe was the clear cut winner. I voted for the #1 and #2 in that order, but missed on #3. I had Racing Card Derby around #5. I think you are going to see High Card Flush all over the place. It's very easy to play, lots of chances to win and fun at the same time. If I had the choice of any game to play in a Casino it would be up there with UTH and Pai Gow and ahead of Three Card.
Players Choice 21 was suprisingly fun and came out of nowewhere in my opinion. I had seen many of the games previously and even just in my initial walkthrough before actually playing anything, it didn't catch my eye. Fun game and will surely get some placements based on it's showing.
ZCore13
Players Choice 21 was suprisingly fun and came out of nowewhere in my opinion. I had seen many of the games previously and even just in my initial walkthrough before actually playing anything, it didn't catch my eye. Fun game and will surely get some placements based on it's showing.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
December 11th, 2012 at 6:18:50 PM
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Players Choice 21 was interesting, but the mandatory Three Card Poker bet pay table looked pretty tough on the player. Pushing on any pair and getting 1:1 on a flush. Players are going to look at this as the worst pay table they have ever seen for a TCP PP type bet forgetting that they are playing with a 6 Deck shoe as opposed to a single deck game. I am not sure they will get over the "I am obviously getting screwed on this mandatory bet".
The game set up, where player has an advantage on one bet and the house has the advantage on the other, works in Crazy 4 with the Super Bonus, but there you get to pile on three more units when you get a good hand. In Player's Choice you have BJ double opportunities, but I don't think they would come as often as the pair of Aces or better in Crazy 4 (and even when they come simulaneously, you only get two more units out vs. 3 in Crazy 4). Time will tell, there may be some more tweaking to be done to this game.
High Card Flush has clearly found a niche with its table down in Laughlin being in place for 18 months (I believe). With Galaxy's marketing behind it now and a successful initial placement, we are either going to see if lack of additional table placements is due to a lack of marketing money/muscle or if the game simply doesn't have broad appeal. The good news for the developer is he is going to get an answer on how good his game is in the next 12-18 months and you gotta love that!
The game set up, where player has an advantage on one bet and the house has the advantage on the other, works in Crazy 4 with the Super Bonus, but there you get to pile on three more units when you get a good hand. In Player's Choice you have BJ double opportunities, but I don't think they would come as often as the pair of Aces or better in Crazy 4 (and even when they come simulaneously, you only get two more units out vs. 3 in Crazy 4). Time will tell, there may be some more tweaking to be done to this game.
High Card Flush has clearly found a niche with its table down in Laughlin being in place for 18 months (I believe). With Galaxy's marketing behind it now and a successful initial placement, we are either going to see if lack of additional table placements is due to a lack of marketing money/muscle or if the game simply doesn't have broad appeal. The good news for the developer is he is going to get an answer on how good his game is in the next 12-18 months and you gotta love that!
December 11th, 2012 at 7:43:14 PM
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My worry about the Players Choice 21 is the mandatory $15 bet, which will be a mandatory $30 minimum or higher in most markets on the weekends.
Casinos just seem to do that, thereby severely limiting the chance for a new game to find it's niche.
How else to explain the dismal failure of Switch on Colorado ?
Plus players often bet above table minimum, but are required to bet that same amount on a poor poker payout schedule ?
And learn a new strategy too ? I wish the game well, but it has a long learning curve on the surface for new players.
What is the hit rate on the poker bet ? Less than 1 in 4 ? Might make for some long losing streaks before even getting a push !
Math guys be my guest, just a WAG on my part.
Plus website rules say dealer will stand on all 17's and 22 is a bust. ( pay attention, Switch )
But the felt in the video for the game says, Dealer must hit soft 17 ??
Casinos just seem to do that, thereby severely limiting the chance for a new game to find it's niche.
How else to explain the dismal failure of Switch on Colorado ?
Plus players often bet above table minimum, but are required to bet that same amount on a poor poker payout schedule ?
And learn a new strategy too ? I wish the game well, but it has a long learning curve on the surface for new players.
What is the hit rate on the poker bet ? Less than 1 in 4 ? Might make for some long losing streaks before even getting a push !
Math guys be my guest, just a WAG on my part.
Plus website rules say dealer will stand on all 17's and 22 is a bust. ( pay attention, Switch )
But the felt in the video for the game says, Dealer must hit soft 17 ??
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 11th, 2012 at 8:32:04 PM
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" Players will set their cards in the most advantageous way possible and also decide which hand is to be played first. "
Really, player will decide which hand is played first, Really ?
Really, player will decide which hand is played first, Really ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 8:14:42 AM
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Anybody seen this in live action? On the video the player is not asked to indicate which hand he wants to play first !
http://renegadetablegames.com/Players_Choice_21.html
http://renegadetablegames.com/Players_Choice_21.html
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 8:23:25 AM
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Buzz, I think the way you decide which hand to play first is based on how you set the cards.
The hand to the Player's right will receive the first hit card, so that is how they "decide which hand will be played first".
I agree with you on the three mandatory wagers and one being a low hit rate, tough poker pay table. I think the "hit rate" on the poker bet is less than 10%, but I am sure Charles can give us the exact amounts. PP in TCP has a 25.6% hit rate, but almost 17% of that is tied up in the "pair" payout. That only pushes in this paytable, which in my opinion is not a "hit". So you drop to sub 10%.....that is rough!
The hand to the Player's right will receive the first hit card, so that is how they "decide which hand will be played first".
I agree with you on the three mandatory wagers and one being a low hit rate, tough poker pay table. I think the "hit rate" on the poker bet is less than 10%, but I am sure Charles can give us the exact amounts. PP in TCP has a 25.6% hit rate, but almost 17% of that is tied up in the "pair" payout. That only pushes in this paytable, which in my opinion is not a "hit". So you drop to sub 10%.....that is rough!
December 12th, 2012 at 8:45:33 AM
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The wording is a little ambiguous, but could be read that way, I guess.
Rough is right, especially when on a winning streak, betting more than the minimum, and seeing your profits greatly diminished
by the poker bet.
Still waiting for an answer in the difference between the rules and the felt on S17 or H17.
Rough is right, especially when on a winning streak, betting more than the minimum, and seeing your profits greatly diminished
by the poker bet.
Still waiting for an answer in the difference between the rules and the felt on S17 or H17.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 9:49:42 AM
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The rules and presentation could definitely benefit from some polish, which is where I'm thinking that a distribution company might do a world of good.
To answer Buzz's question, I have done math for both variants, I believe the inventor was going to go with S17 primarily as he is native to the AC area.
To speak to the criticisms about the game:
I really don't see how the Super Bonus return is so bad. At around -25%, it's actually a better "mandatory side bet" than the Blind Bet in UTH, which is around -31%. For those who asked, the 6D distribution is 70.8% loss, 19.5% push and 9.7% win. This was thought to be better than an 80% loss / 20% win, which would be in line with most standard sidebets.
The return on the main game is well over 22%. Bear in mind naturals pay 3:2, and in general, the hand setting decision is trivial. Ace-Ten-(any) is a fairly common and very profitable hand, and needless to say ATT or AAT is a goldmine.
I agree that setting the table limit too high would be a huge disaster for this game. Average bet size for this game is around 4 units, anything more than $5 min would be a disaster, at least starting out.
To answer Buzz's question, I have done math for both variants, I believe the inventor was going to go with S17 primarily as he is native to the AC area.
To speak to the criticisms about the game:
I really don't see how the Super Bonus return is so bad. At around -25%, it's actually a better "mandatory side bet" than the Blind Bet in UTH, which is around -31%. For those who asked, the 6D distribution is 70.8% loss, 19.5% push and 9.7% win. This was thought to be better than an 80% loss / 20% win, which would be in line with most standard sidebets.
The return on the main game is well over 22%. Bear in mind naturals pay 3:2, and in general, the hand setting decision is trivial. Ace-Ten-(any) is a fairly common and very profitable hand, and needless to say ATT or AAT is a goldmine.
I agree that setting the table limit too high would be a huge disaster for this game. Average bet size for this game is around 4 units, anything more than $5 min would be a disaster, at least starting out.
December 12th, 2012 at 9:50:44 AM
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Quote: ParadigmBuzz, I think the way you decide which hand to play first is based on how you set the cards.
The hand to the Player's right will receive the first hit card, so that is how they "decide which hand will be played first".
I agree with you on the three mandatory wagers and one being a low hit rate, tough poker pay table. I think the "hit rate" on the poker bet is less than 10%, but I am sure Charles can give us the exact amounts. PP in TCP has a 25.6% hit rate, but almost 17% of that is tied up in the "pair" payout. That only pushes in this paytable, which in my opinion is not a "hit". So you drop to sub 10%.....that is rough!
I'm too lazy to make this an actual table. Hope there are no brainos and/or typos.
Event Combinations Probability Pays Return
mini royal 864 0.000172340883885 150 0.025851132582799
trips suited 1040 0.000207447360232 100 0.020744736023234
straightflush 9504 0.001895749722739 40 0.075829988909545
trips 25272 0.005040970853646 25 0.126024271341147
flush with pair 56160 0.011202157452546 6 0.067212944715278
straight 155520 0.031021359099359 3 0.093064077298078
flush 236736 0.047221402184580 1 0.04722140218458
pair 977184 0.194917539674308 0 0
loser 3551040 0.708321032768704 -1 -0.708321032768704
Total 5013320 1 -0.252372479714042
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 12th, 2012 at 9:55:09 AM
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You are correct miplet. I included a screen grab from my report mostly to get the aforementioned reports, and also to see if you care to double check my 8D numbers. But also to get opinions on my color scheme ;)
December 12th, 2012 at 9:56:16 AM
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" I agree that setting the table limit too high would be a huge disaster for this game. Average bet size for this game is around 4 units, anything more than $5 min would be a disaster, at least starting out. "
Keeping my fingers crossed, but I would expect to see $10 or $15 minimum on weekends. Just the way things are done !
" I really don't see how the Super Bonus return is so bad. "
Not so much about return as long streaks with nothing but pushes and losses. After about 10 or 12 of those, players might not be too
happy.
One final point. Any thoughts about making the mandatory poker bet the table minimum, rather than equal to the BJ bets. Just asking ?
Keeping my fingers crossed, but I would expect to see $10 or $15 minimum on weekends. Just the way things are done !
" I really don't see how the Super Bonus return is so bad. "
Not so much about return as long streaks with nothing but pushes and losses. After about 10 or 12 of those, players might not be too
happy.
One final point. Any thoughts about making the mandatory poker bet the table minimum, rather than equal to the BJ bets. Just asking ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 9:58:39 AM
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Nice charts ! How about one showing streaks without a hand that does something more than push ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 10:18:03 AM
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Quote: Buzzard" I really don't see how the Super Bonus return is so bad. "
Not so much about return as long streaks with nothing but pushes and losses. After about 10 or 12 of those, players might not be too
happy.
In addition to this side bet, they are playing a main game where they get to make a two unit bet with an overall advantage of 11% of the total bet amount. Do you really think players will really never have a hand in 10 or 12 where they don't win 2 or more units on the main game?
If you're talking about "just on the mandatory side bet", again, no worse than the distribution of the blind bet
Quote:One final point. Any thoughts about making the mandatory poker bet the table minimum, rather than equal to the BJ bets. Just asking ?
It would be entirely impossible. You have to compensate for an expected win of 22% of the betting unit. Rather trivial to bet table min on poker and even 10x on the main game, mopping up like a madman.
December 12th, 2012 at 10:35:29 AM
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Quote: CRMousseauYou are correct miplet. I included a screen grab from my report mostly to get the aforementioned reports, and also to see if you care to double check my 8D numbers. But also to get opinions on my color scheme ;)
Yep, 8 decks are good. Color scheme is good too. Heck, I'd even play the game if it makes it out here.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 12th, 2012 at 10:58:23 AM
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"In addition to this side bet, they are playing a main game where they get to make a two unit bet with an overall advantage of 11% of the total bet amount. "
I did not realize the advantage was that high. Not a math guy, but then most players aren't either. Just concerned about players thinking the mandatory bet is some kind of punishment after seeing it go long periods without a payout, that's all.
I did not realize the advantage was that high. Not a math guy, but then most players aren't either. Just concerned about players thinking the mandatory bet is some kind of punishment after seeing it go long periods without a payout, that's all.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 11:27:48 AM
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Quote: BuzzardIn addition to this side bet, they are playing a main game where they get to make a two unit bet with an overall advantage of 11% of the total bet amount.
I did not realize the advantage was that high. Not a math guy, but then most players aren't either. Just concerned about players thinking the mandatory bet is some kind of punishment after seeing it go long periods without a payout, that's all.
Believe me, it's massive. The overall return on the two hands is over 22%. I'm hoping it will be similar to BJ Switch in that people will intuitively see how powerful it can be, as opposed to (say) their inability to see how powerful the 4x and 2x bets are in UTH.
A quick look at the spreadsheet shows that (in the main game alone) 16.25% of starting hands have an EV of greater than 1.0 units. They are essentially A-X-? hands (12.45%), or the 3.5%-ish hands that can make two hard 10 / hard 11 doubles (i.e. 447 vs 3 = 1.04 units)
As for players seeing this as a punishment.. do they see the UTH Blind Bet as punishment? The smart ones do, of course, but they are drawn to UTH because it's actually relatively challenging to play. Hopefully they will see something similar in PC21
December 12th, 2012 at 11:32:30 AM
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Wonder what the potential is to decrease the advantage on the main bet, either through even money BJ or limiting doubles, etc., so that you could get a pair to pay even money on the Poker Bet. I think that is the killer feature there. Players are used to getting paid on a pair in a 3CP Bonus type wager.
You could even pull out the Flush+Pair payout from the Poker Table and adjust the payouts such that you get the required edge, but a higher Pay/Win rate. Pushes don't count in a hit rate in my opinion.
Out of curiosity, what is the win/push/lose distribution on the UTH Blind Bet (Charles or Mips) or on the Super Bonus in Crazy 4 (I think this one will be most similar to PC21 Poker Bet)?
The concept has potential, I just think it needs some tweaking. Buzz is right, players aren't going to think they have that much of an advantage on the two BJ hands, but they are going to recognize the Poker Bet has a way worse pay table than Pair Plus in TCP and they likely think that is a high edge side bet as it is.
If you can get a more palatable trade off in the Poker Bet pay table, you have a much better chance of a positive player experience when players first try out the game.
By the way developers are nice folks, I met them briefly at Raving and wish them well.
You could even pull out the Flush+Pair payout from the Poker Table and adjust the payouts such that you get the required edge, but a higher Pay/Win rate. Pushes don't count in a hit rate in my opinion.
Out of curiosity, what is the win/push/lose distribution on the UTH Blind Bet (Charles or Mips) or on the Super Bonus in Crazy 4 (I think this one will be most similar to PC21 Poker Bet)?
The concept has potential, I just think it needs some tweaking. Buzz is right, players aren't going to think they have that much of an advantage on the two BJ hands, but they are going to recognize the Poker Bet has a way worse pay table than Pair Plus in TCP and they likely think that is a high edge side bet as it is.
If you can get a more palatable trade off in the Poker Bet pay table, you have a much better chance of a positive player experience when players first try out the game.
By the way developers are nice folks, I met them briefly at Raving and wish them well.
December 12th, 2012 at 11:42:02 AM
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I agree. But I had high hopes for SWITCH too. Let's hope this game can duck the bullet as far as table minimums go.
The learning curve is not steep, but only if players play the game. Putting out $20 a hand on a new game seemed to kill SWITCH, at least in Colorado.
Putting out $30 or $45 to play a new game ...... BRUTAL
A player can easily lose over $100 on the first 2 hands. The 25% on the mandatory bet is set. But seeing how average player does
"basic strategy" and how they will set hands, who knows how much under 11% on the BJ hand..
Players who play 2 hands like when they break even, lose one and win one. Gives them a good feeling when first hand is a 20 and
then hit the stiff second hand. But in this game if you split on both hands, 7 out of 10 hands, you will lose the mandatory bet.
Hope this is recognized as constructive criticism. Think it a kewl game, but will have to overcome some steep obstacles to be a hit !
The learning curve is not steep, but only if players play the game. Putting out $20 a hand on a new game seemed to kill SWITCH, at least in Colorado.
Putting out $30 or $45 to play a new game ...... BRUTAL
A player can easily lose over $100 on the first 2 hands. The 25% on the mandatory bet is set. But seeing how average player does
"basic strategy" and how they will set hands, who knows how much under 11% on the BJ hand..
Players who play 2 hands like when they break even, lose one and win one. Gives them a good feeling when first hand is a 20 and
then hit the stiff second hand. But in this game if you split on both hands, 7 out of 10 hands, you will lose the mandatory bet.
Hope this is recognized as constructive criticism. Think it a kewl game, but will have to overcome some steep obstacles to be a hit !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 7:21:23 PM
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Distribution for Blind in UTH, optimal strategy:
Push (i.e. win with less than a straight, or tie): 41.1%
Win: 8.7%
Loss: 50.2%
Crazy 4 poker
Push: 37.3%
Win: 10.7%
Loss: 52.0%
If you aren't counting pushes as hits, then PC21's sidebet fits right in.
Paying one pair (~19.5%) just isn't feasible, even if you merge the pair + flush (~1% @ 5:1) into it, you are still having to make up 15% in the main game. You're looking at every massive disadvantage under the sun and a crappy blackjack game
The developer's goal was to make the blackjack half of the game stand out as being superior, which meant no short pays on naturals or obvious pro-house rules. Is there any way other way to go here? I don't see it.
Push (i.e. win with less than a straight, or tie): 41.1%
Win: 8.7%
Loss: 50.2%
Crazy 4 poker
Push: 37.3%
Win: 10.7%
Loss: 52.0%
If you aren't counting pushes as hits, then PC21's sidebet fits right in.
Paying one pair (~19.5%) just isn't feasible, even if you merge the pair + flush (~1% @ 5:1) into it, you are still having to make up 15% in the main game. You're looking at every massive disadvantage under the sun and a crappy blackjack game
The developer's goal was to make the blackjack half of the game stand out as being superior, which meant no short pays on naturals or obvious pro-house rules. Is there any way other way to go here? I don't see it.
December 12th, 2012 at 7:44:28 PM
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" The developer's goal was to make the blackjack half of the game stand out as being superior, which meant no short pays on naturals or obvious pro-house rules. Is there any way other way to go here? I don't see it. "
An admirable goal, but if house wants a H17 Players Choice 21 , that is what they will get. PERIOD. Greg knows that.
Switch could not say NO to Casino Royale 6/5 Free Bet.
And full pay 6 deck H17 BJ not that hard to find. ( especially at $25 ) Once players are attracting to a game, the house too often tightens up the pay schedule. Even with Streak, Stacy Perry had to take the pay schedule AC wanted.
And with the 2 games you mention, they have an effective payout higher than 3/2 on the main bet. And you only get 3/2 once every 21 hands.
But I do like the game. I would play at $5, but on weekends I just know it will be $10 minimum, and my bankroll might handle that barely, but at $15 FORGEDDABOUTIT.
An admirable goal, but if house wants a H17 Players Choice 21 , that is what they will get. PERIOD. Greg knows that.
Switch could not say NO to Casino Royale 6/5 Free Bet.
And full pay 6 deck H17 BJ not that hard to find. ( especially at $25 ) Once players are attracting to a game, the house too often tightens up the pay schedule. Even with Streak, Stacy Perry had to take the pay schedule AC wanted.
And with the 2 games you mention, they have an effective payout higher than 3/2 on the main bet. And you only get 3/2 once every 21 hands.
But I do like the game. I would play at $5, but on weekends I just know it will be $10 minimum, and my bankroll might handle that barely, but at $15 FORGEDDABOUTIT.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 7:45:30 PM
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You could pay 1:1 on 8s or better and lose withe 7s or less, but I don't know if players would like that better ( or if it makes it countable).
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 12th, 2012 at 7:51:14 PM
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My biggest concern is that table games manager will make this game $10 or $15 minimum, especially on weekends, not factoring in the player will be betting $30-$45 per hand to play a new game.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 7:56:13 PM
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Quote: BuzzardMy biggest concern is that table games manager will make this game $10 or $15 minimum, especially on weekends, not factoring in the player will be betting $30-$45 per hand to play a new game.
:) I guess I'm spoiled with $2 and $3 min UTH games around here.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 12th, 2012 at 7:57:30 PM
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Does that mean even at $10 minimum you won't be in que for players choice 21 ?
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 12th, 2012 at 8:38:45 PM
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Quote: miplet:) I guess I'm spoiled with $2 and $3 min UTH games around here.
What? Where is, "Around here," I want to go, "Around here!"
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 12th, 2012 at 8:47:52 PM
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Quote: Mission146What? Where is, "Around here," I want to go, "Around here!"
Crazy moose casino (actualy just a card room) which is just down the street where I live in Mountlake Terrace,WA has a $3 min all the time. Angel of the Winds, a tribal casino 35 miles north has a $2 game in the morning and $3 the rest of the time.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 12th, 2012 at 9:02:58 PM
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Thank you for the information, I just wish it was on the right side of the country!
Let me ask you this question now that marijuana is legalized in Washington:
Can you fire up in the casino, does it have to be at home, or what are the restrictions on that?
Let me ask you this question now that marijuana is legalized in Washington:
Can you fire up in the casino, does it have to be at home, or what are the restrictions on that?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 12th, 2012 at 9:19:25 PM
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Quote: Mission146Thank you for the information, I just wish it was on the right side of the country!
Let me ask you this question now that marijuana is legalized in Washington:
Can you fire up in the casino, does it have to be at home, or what are the restrictions on that?
Public use of marijuana in WA will still be a "civil infraction" (similar to a speeding ticket).
http://www.aclu-wa.org/sites/default/files/attachments/Marijuana%20I-502%20FAQs%20-%20110712.pdf
I'd be in for $2 ante UTH though!
December 12th, 2012 at 10:39:08 PM
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Quote: CRMousseauDistribution for Blind in UTH, optimal strategy:
Push (i.e. win with less than a straight, or tie): 41.1%
Win: 8.7%
Loss: 50.2%
Crazy 4 poker
Push: 37.3%
Win: 10.7%
Loss: 52.0%
If you aren't counting pushes as hits, then PC21's sidebet fits right in.
Good info Charles, thank you. I agree with you that the win rate fits right in, but the loss rate makes a horrible comparison.
What is interesting is that these two successful "claw backs" of player edge are so closely aligned. You lose them every other hand, win 10% and push 40%. That may be the magic sauce here. So how do you change the poker table payout to more closely match that win/push/lose profile and maintain its required 25% edge to keep the BJ portion of the game intact?
Could you lower the push threshold to a hand of AX (whatever gets the push % up to say 35%), only pay the Bonus on hands of a three card flush or higher as is (10% of hands) and reduce the payouts in such a manner that you maintain the 25% edge.
You could go for the 21+3 mentality and simply pay all hands greater than a flush 3-1. All hands of AX or higher but not a Flush, push and anything less than AX is lost (make this 55% of hands). That would give -.55 on the losses and +.30 on the 10% of hands that win and pay the uniform 3-1 achieving the required -0.25 EV.
I don't love the example above as you lose all the high payouts, but you could massage this by paying a standard 2-1 for most winning hands and use the excess juice to increase payouts for the highly unlikely hands.
I just think something has to change to get rid of the 70% loss rate on the current poker bet. Players are going to hate that more than the advantage in the BJ game that they aren't sure how to quantify. Give them less losses and smaller payouts on wins on the clawback bet and I think you get a much better player proposition.
December 12th, 2012 at 10:52:27 PM
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Quote: Paradigm
I just think something has to change to get rid of the 70% loss rate on the current poker bet. Players are going to hate that more than the advantage in the BJ game that they aren't sure how to quantify. Give them less losses and smaller payouts on wins on the clawback bet and I think you get a much better player proposition.
Personally I agree with Charles here. People have no problem with pushing the blind bet in UTH, and the game couldn't be a house game without it! I guess the only concern is that people that play this game probably have played 3CP at some point.
December 13th, 2012 at 5:42:38 AM
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Quote: mipletCrazy moose casino (actualy just a card room) which is just down the street where I live in Mountlake Terrace,WA has a $3 min all the time. Angel of the Winds, a tribal casino 35 miles north has a $2 game in the morning and $3 the rest of the time.
Do Denver or Marsha still work there? If so, tell them Charles from Canada says 'hi' and 'sorry I haven't been by there lately'
December 13th, 2012 at 2:10:17 PM
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Ok I give up ! HELP
PLAYERS CHOICE 21 : " Doubling down and splitting are allowed. Players may split any pair upto a total of 4 hands and Players may double after splitting except with aces in which case players will receive one card on split aces."
I start with 3 cards and have to use a common card. How can I split anything ? What am I missing ?
" After all Poker Bonus wagers are settled, each player will arrange their 3 cards into 2 seperate blackjack hands by making 1 of the 3 cards 'common' to both hands. Players will set their cards in the most advantageous way possible and also decide which hand is to be played first. "
Here's the video : http://renegadetablegames.com/Players_Choice_21.html
PLAYERS CHOICE 21 : " Doubling down and splitting are allowed. Players may split any pair upto a total of 4 hands and Players may double after splitting except with aces in which case players will receive one card on split aces."
I start with 3 cards and have to use a common card. How can I split anything ? What am I missing ?
" After all Poker Bonus wagers are settled, each player will arrange their 3 cards into 2 seperate blackjack hands by making 1 of the 3 cards 'common' to both hands. Players will set their cards in the most advantageous way possible and also decide which hand is to be played first. "
Here's the video : http://renegadetablegames.com/Players_Choice_21.html
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 13th, 2012 at 2:22:25 PM
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Let's assume that you are dealt 7,7,9 so you decide to use one of the 7's as your common card. So you would have:-
7 9
7
which gives you 2 hands of 7,7 and 7,9. You can now split the 7,7 as you would in the regular game.
7 9
7
which gives you 2 hands of 7,7 and 7,9. You can now split the 7,7 as you would in the regular game.
December 13th, 2012 at 2:24:09 PM
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If I have three 7's what is the highest number of hands I can wind up with? 8 ? ?
Great fun for those who like to split 10's LOL
Great fun for those who like to split 10's LOL
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 13th, 2012 at 2:25:54 PM
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Quote: BuzzardIf I have three 7's what is the highest number of hands i can wind up with? 8 ? ?
Yes, up to 3 splits on each hand.
December 13th, 2012 at 2:27:55 PM
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Thanks. I knew I was lost, as usual. I might have to split 10's just to see the dealer find room at a crowded table !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
