A very easy UTH strategy is needed !!
I bounced this by Charles Mousseau, and he said this a fine idea, and he's looking into it. He gave me a blurb that I wish to share, as a start on this. It is:
Pre-Flop - bet 4x if:
Any Ace or pairs of 3's +
J10/J8 suited
Q8/Q6 suited
K5/any K suited
on the flop - bet 2X:
any pair,
any draw that includes the 4th highest card not on the flop
on the River - bet 1x:
call 2nd high kicker+ if there's a pair on board,
3rd high+ if there's no pair, or
Board is a lock (top straight, full house, etc.)
that's the basics from CRM, to be refined. Perhaps we will see it on his blog.
There's some two pair and kicker-on-board exceptions, of course. But I think these are largely the most important, especially the preflop. It continues to blow my mind how bad people play this game.
;)
Is that the one where you count outs on the river?
In either case, do you have any numbers for its performance? I'll be interested to compare as I develop.
Quote: WizardIt is going to be difficult to beat the simplicity and power of the Grossjean strategy. That is what I personally use.
I've ordered it.
For getting the complete newbie going, like my wife, the above "Short & Easy" blurb is helpful.
I'm sure Charles will flesh out a good and short strategy.
Also the free play site UTH online is helpful.
Seconded. I can count the number of people I've seen play correct strategy on one hand. Even when I played with a game inventor (not at the WoV meetup), he was still betting pretty wildly. Roger should get a bonus, stock options, and a promotion for this game. (I think he probably already has.) One thing that is disappointing is seeing the deterioration of Trips paytables. (Did see a +E.V. progressive though recently at a very unexpected place.)Quote: CRMousseauThere's some two pair and kicker-on-board exceptions, of course. But I think these are largely the most important, especially the preflop. It continues to blow my mind how bad people play this game.
I'm having trouble with the Wizard's basic strategy on the small raise at the end with regard to the 21 out rule. I was hoping someone could clarify it for me. I practiced on the wizardofodds site to get a little better.
I'll give a couple of examples to illustrate things:
First hand.
My cards were 10H and 3S. I get that it is too weak to make the big raise so I checked.
The flop was 6H 7C 6C. I didn't have a hidden pair ,4 to a flush or two pair, so I checked again.
The turn and river were KH and JD. Here's how I counted the outs. 4 Aces, 3 Kings, 4 Queens, 3 Jacks, 2 6s, and 3 7s. I get 19 outs there. So, my instinct was to call that. Was that the proper thinking according to the simple strategy? I understand it is a close call and the EV on perfect strategy might say to fold. Any thoughts?
Second hand:
My cards: 9S 2S....Check
Flop: 7D 8D QC...Check
turn and river: QD 7S......here is how i calculated the outs........4 aces, 4 kings, 2queens, 4 Jacks, 4 10s, and 3 8s.....I count 21 outs there. So, according to his strategy that is a fold, correct? Maybe, I'm overthinking it. But, I would like to get the basic Wizard strategy before moving on to a more complicated one.
Quote: Wulfgar1224I was trying to learn this game for my upcoming trip to Vegas in March. I didn't want to start a new thread. So, I found this one and it seemed relevant so I added it here.
I'm having trouble with the Wizard's basic strategy on the small raise at the end with regard to the 21 out rule. I was hoping someone could clarify it for me. I practiced on the wizardofodds site to get a little better.
I'll give a couple of examples to illustrate things:
First hand.
My cards were 10H and 3S. I get that it is too weak to make the big raise so I checked.
The flop was 6H 7C 6C. I didn't have a hidden pair ,4 to a flush or two pair, so I checked again.
The turn and river were KH and JD. Here's how I counted the outs. 4 Aces, 3 Kings, 4 Queens, 3 Jacks, 2 6s, and 3 7s. I get 19 outs there. So, my instinct was to call that. Was that the proper thinking according to the simple strategy? I understand it is a close call and the EV on perfect strategy might say to fold. Any thoughts?
Second hand:
My cards: 9S 2S....Check
Flop: 7D 8D QC...Check
turn and river: QD 7S......here is how i calculated the outs........4 aces, 4 kings, 2queens, 4 Jacks, 4 10s, and 3 8s.....I count 21 outs there. So, according to his strategy that is a fold, correct? Maybe, I'm overthinking it. But, I would like to get the basic Wizard strategy before moving on to a more complicated one.
To my best understanding;
First hand you have correctly. Because of the pair+2 overcards, the ten can play. 11+4+4 against you.
Second hand, you undercounted by 2. Either 7 will give the dealer a FH, so 23 against you. So the 9 doesn't play.
An easy way to group count is, a no pair board Is 15 cards against you. A 1 pair board is 11. Then count overcards not on the board in batches of 4. Most boards are one or the other.
Watch out for 4 to an outside straight or flush draw. One adds 8 cards against you, the other 9. (Either may be duplicated in the count; the real number is often less). However, either of those conditions will likely invalidate a queen kicker, may even threaten a king.
ZCore13
Essentially you want to know if your kicker tips the scale when the 21 outs is the situation. A king is a given, always call if that is in your hand. Then for what I will call the rundown method, the first over card or pair will mean a queen is a call, then you go to a jack, etc.Quote: Wulfgar1224First hand.
My cards were 10H and 3S. I get that it is too weak to make the big raise so I checked.
The flop was 6H 7C 6C. I didn't have a hidden pair ,4 to a flush or two pair, so I checked again.
The turn and river were KH and JD. Here's how I counted the outs. 4 Aces, 3 Kings, 4 Queens, 3 Jacks, 2 6s, and 3 7s. I get 19 outs there. So, my instinct was to call that. Was that the proper thinking according to the simple strategy? I understand it is a close call and the EV on perfect strategy might say to fold. Any thoughts?
I run your first example down like this, with king->call as given, the -> symbol meaning 'the situation yields to this':
I see a pair -> queen is a call [don't have one of course]
then I see a king -> jack is a call [but also don't have a jack]
then I see a jack -> the 10 is a call and I have one
this is all much faster for me, your results may vary. Also, it may be less accurate, but I have found few problems. Your second hand does cause one though.
rundown:Quote:Second hand:
My cards: 9S 2S....Check
Flop: 7D 8D QC...Check
turn and river: QD 7S
I see pair Qs -> queen is a call. but this pair *is* 2 queens -> 10 is a call [can you follow that?]
I see pair 7s -> 9 is a call
if using this rundown method the complication of "but there are queens" clearly muddies the waters. The answer is wrong versus '21 outs' method.
If it is a close call the cost in EV is OK in my book. I wanted to run it past you since you titled your thread "easy is needed"
btw my understanding of the 21 outs is that you do not consider anything that needs 2 dealer cards as an out, such as the dealer possibly having 2 diamonds in the second example.
Pre-flop:
Bet any pair, bet any Ace, bet any two faces.
On the flop or on the river:
If you hit the board, bet.
This strategy ignores betting K5-K9, Q8, Q9, and a few suited kings and queens. I bet that doesn't cost the new player too much in the short term. Then once the player gets the hang of that, introduce the other 4-bets.
If the average Joe played this way, the game would be played better than the way the general population currently plays it.
Quote: PaigowdanA very decent, very quick-n-easy strategy. Good job.
If the average Joe played this way, the game would be played better than the way the general population currently plays it.
The general population has no clue how to play this game.
Hell, they still can't play blackjack correct!!
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I'd play any Ace and King kicker in my hand as well. And for each of those on the board, drop down another rank if it's in my hand.
ZCore13
With an ace in your hand you should have already made a 4x bet.
Quote: HunterhillWith an ace in your hand you should have already made a 4x bet.
That's true. My bad.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13...for each of those on the board, drop down another rank if it's in my hand.
ZCore13
what I was trying to say in my post - probably not written in an understandable way.
Oh, uh Dan..... New clothres, like dealer's uniforms, are not required of the players!
I do think I'll be able to memorize the strategy for the 4x bet before I head there in a couple of weeks. It is my understanding that is where the most critical mistakes are made. I'm probably going to play mostly tiles and PGP. But, I do think that I'll try to fit some Ultimate Texas Hold em as well.
I liked the suggestion about hitting the board on the flop and turn/river bets. I think that might work for me.
Quote: Wulfgar1224I do think I'll be able to memorize the strategy for the 4x bet before I head there in a couple of weeks. It is my understanding that is where the most critical mistakes are made.
Memorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.
The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.
Quote: ThatDonGuyMemorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.
The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.
Wow thats simplified? I think I'll stick to counting 21 outs,much easier in my opinion .
Quote: HunterhillWow thats simplified? I think I'll stick to counting 21 outs,much easier in my opinion .
the Grosjean card, which I have, is not that easy to use right off the bat, either. However, like most things, actually using it helps that out. Practicing on a trainer with it in your hand is highly recommended.
Also, practicing should cut out the need to look at the card for all the other decisions except the last one.
Now if only a UTH game was close to me! grrrrrrrrrrrr
Quote: ThatDonGuyMemorize? I actually developed a strategy card for UTH, and no dealers have minded me using it yet.
The "21 Outs" rule can be rewritten as:
If you don't pair the board with at least one of your cards, count the number of ranks, starting from ace and working down, that (a) are not on the board, (b) don't make a straight on the board, and (c) are higher than both the higher of your two cards and the lowest unpaired card on the board. (For example, if the board is A Q Q 9 7 and you have 8 3, you count K, J, 10 = 3). You fold if the number is at least the following number based on the hand on the board:
No Pair – 2
Pair – 3
Two Pair, with the fifth card higher than the low pair – 4
Two Pair, with the fifth card lower than the low pair – 5
Three Of A Kind – 4
4/Open Straight – 1 if any of the cards are paired; otherwise fold
4/Inside Straight – 2 if any of the cards are paired; 1 if there is not
4/Flush - always fold
Straight, Flush, Full House, Straight Flush – always bet
Four Of A Kind – fold if the higher of the fifth board card and your higher hole card is 7 or lower, or an 8 with four 7s or higher
In the example, there is a pair on the board (and no 4/straight), so the "fold number" is 3; the "count" is also 3, so fold.
I didn't think about bringing a card with me. I will probably use a modified version that works for me. Honestly, I've been practicing this morning on the website game and it is starting to become more intuitive for me. From what I'm reading on other posts, it will be better than most of the people that step up to play the game.
Quote: Wulfgar1224I didn't think about bringing a card with me. I will probably use a modified version that works for me. Honestly, I've been practicing this morning on the website game and it is starting to become more intuitive for me. From what I'm reading on other posts, it will be better than most of the people that step up to play the game.
One of the things I like about the game is that you may also find your are better than some of the dealers. They do have to call their hand correctly.
Quote: CharmedQuarkDon't worry about taking time to calculate the outs. You will still be a lot faster than the player who can't decide to play A-9 with a 3X bet (they would never bet 4X) on the preflop.
Agree. Take your time, count the outs. It's your money. You'll only be slow for a little while, anyway, maybe a couple hours of play.
Start
15 outs no pair board
11 outs 1 pair
+
4 outs each rank higher than yours (that's not already on the board)
Fold over 21
90% + of the time that's all you have to count.
I do have to say that I've gotten quite a bit of good advice from this thread so I'm glad that I revived it. I'm sure with all of the practice I've been getting on the website that I will do fine in terms of play. I just hope the cards co-operate with me.
Quote: beachbumbabsAgree. Take your time, count the outs. It's your money. You'll only be slow for a little while, anyway, maybe a couple hours of play.
Start
15 outs no pair board
11 outs 1 pair
+
4 outs each rank higher than yours (that's not already on the board)
Fold over 21
90% + of the time that's all you have to count.
It's "fold over 20," isn't it?
Also, if you want to expand it a little:
Add 8 if there is 4 to an open-ended straight on the board
Add 4 if there is 4 to an inside straight on the board (including AKQJ and 432A)
Add 9 if there is 4 to a flush on the board
Two Pair on the board is 7 if the fifth card is higher than the low pair, or 4 if the fifth card is lower than the low pair
(reason: with, say, 9 9 7 5 5, a 7 gives the dealer 9 9 7 7 to your 9 9 5 5, but with 9 9 7 7 5, a 5 does not improve the hand)
Three Of A Kind - 7
Straight, Flush, Full House - always bet; there will never be more than 20 outs
Four of a Kind - 0
Also, when counting "missing ranks", skip anything that makes a straight on the board, and stop when you get to either the lowest rank on the board or the higher of your two cards. If the board is A Q Q J 9 and you have 7-5, an 8 is not going to do the dealer any good, so that is only 19 outs; play the hand.
Quote: ThatDonGuyIt's "fold over 20," isn't it?
Also, if you want to expand it a little:
Add 8 if there is 4 to an open-ended straight on the board
Add 4 if there is 4 to an inside straight on the board (including AKQJ and 432A)
Add 9 if there is 4 to a flush on the board
Two Pair on the board is 7 if the fifth card is higher than the low pair, or 4 if the fifth card is lower than the low pair
(reason: with, say, 9 9 7 5 5, a 7 gives the dealer 9 9 7 7 to your 9 9 5 5, but with 9 9 7 7 5, a 5 does not improve the hand)
Three Of A Kind - 7
Straight, Flush, Full House - always bet; there will never be more than 20 outs
Four of a Kind - 0
Also, when counting "missing ranks", skip anything that makes a straight on the board, and stop when you get to either the lowest rank on the board or the higher of your two cards. If the board is A Q Q J 9 and you have 7-5, an 8 is not going to do the dealer any good, so that is only 19 outs; play the hand.
Yeah, I should have said stop/fold at 21. Funny how hard it is to get to 21, though. 11-15-19-23-27 are the most common totals I see unless it's an exception hand, so I just use 21 as a threshold. Maybe once I counted to exactly 21.
I was trying to cover the vast majority of kicker hands very simply. You're correct on your notes, and those considerations should be added immediately, or as soon as the OP or anyone feels ready to get more precise on their strategy. But those board hands are relatively rare, and while it's very lucrative to recognize them as they occur, especially when you should play the board for a push, it's not that simple to learn.
Worth digging in, absolutely. But from what I've seen people misplay in both directions, if they just follow as much as I listed,.they'll be way ahead of most punters already. Then add your details. And be sure to recognize when they should play the board for a push regardless.
Pre-flop:
- Bet Any Ace.
- Bet Any King.
- Bet Any Queen with an 8 or better
- Bet any 2 10 valued cards (from blackajck)
- Bet any pair bigger than 2's.
Flop/River:
- Bet if you've hit any pair or better.
- Bet if you have 5 "different" cards you can "beat" with your kicker.
No, this is not optimal BS, but it should be pretty simple... It should be named "Bet Big Stuff and Pairs"
Quote: DeucekiesInteresting. You're simple strategy has people betting K2o, K3o, and K4o. What's worse: checking marginal 4-betters, or 4-betting marginal hands you shouldn't?
I think it's better to err on the side of checking. Remember k5, and you've covered 96% or so without over betting.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think it's better to err on the side of checking. Remember k5, and you've covered 96% or so without over betting.
I'll do the math later, but if you don't want to distinguish suited and unsuited hands, k4 looks like the cut off from just eyeballing the change in ev and frequency. You also can't screw up post flop and river bets if you've already bet.
While K-3 off is not a bet, K-5 off is. If you understand poker very well the difference between betting these hands against what you're assuming is the average dealer hand (Q-7 is the average hand heads up) is minutely minimal. Error on the side of aggression is "usually" better for newbies because I've pretty much never seen someone be too aggressive in this game (UTH) while 99.99% of the time I see players missing out on EV by being too UNDER aggressive in this game (UTH).Quote: DeucekiesInteresting. You're simple strategy has people betting K2o, K3o, and K4o. What's worse: checking marginal 4-betters, or 4-betting marginal hands you shouldn't?
Do you know why you bet K-5 and not K-3? When you turn the cards over the majority of the time your King high card is the best hand pre-flop... Quite similar to an ace but an ace is regarded as more powerful. Kings can be too in a game like this (not real poker per-say). The difference between the 5 and the 3 will actually punish the player <1% of the time... a VERY small margin. The MASSSSSS majority of the time the hand plays exactly the same from K-5 to K-2.
Also, the strategy for UTH is based on a heads up game, where the "computer hand" (Q-7) is the average dealer hand. However, the more players at the table the more the average hand will raise. So while the other players are independent from your hand/action, having more players at the table actually raises the average hand for the table, and the dealer is part of that.
If someone isn't going to commit to learning perfect BS for the game, I definitely would stick with my simple recommendation as it doesn't get in to kickers (for the most part) which is probably why they didn't want to learn BS to begin with.
I did hear some comments from people that told me that I raised too much preflop and that I shouldn't bet 4x on something like Q-9. I was taken back with how poorly prepared people are playing some of these games. I guess it is just my personality. But, I couldn't put up my money on a game if I had no idea what was going on at all. A lot of the UTH people were checking on Ace cards preflop but then they'd call on the river on bad kickers. It was mind boggling. All in all, I said say UTH was worth learning. But, i still prefer playing the tiles to be honest.
Quote: Wulfgar1224Well, yeah I expected to hear comments. But, I really didn't expect the play from others to be as poor as it was. I would say probably 90% of the people never read a strategy guide at all and just played off of the cuff. I did want to add that the trips side bet was where I heard more comments as well. I was usually the only one at the table that never played it. Sometimes, the dealers would comment that I should play it since that is where the money is. I take that with a grain of salt since I know it is part of their job to encourage side bets.
Of all casino games, I'd say this one probably is played the poorest by the civilians. Mississippi Stud is a close second.
Quote: IbeatyouracesOf all casino games, I'd say this one probably is played the poorest by the civilians. Mississippi Stud is a close second.
Every game where there is an optimal way play and sub-optimal opportunities is played poorly in casinos. 95% of people don't care. They are there for entertainment.
This goes for video poker, as well as UTH, Three Card Poker, Blackjack, Let it Ride, etc, etc, etc.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Every game where there is an optimal way play and sub-optimal opportunities is played poorly in casinos. 95% of people don't care. They are there for entertainment.
This goes for video poker, as well as UTH, Three Card Poker, Blackjack, Let it Ride, etc, etc, etc.
ZCore13
Sure. But some are played a lot worse than others.
Quote: IbeatyouracesSure. But some are played a lot worse than others.
Well, I guess if you want to judge by minor degrees. In general they are a played badly. People don't care. I've told players for 10 years how they can play better.
Players playing blind on Three Card and UTH because they hate to fold a possible winner. Players never hitting a 15 on a dealer 7-A. If it can be played bad, people do it. On every game.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I've told players for 10 years how they can play better.
I stopped giving advice years ago. Not worth it when it backfires.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI stopped giving advice years ago. Not worth it when it backfires.
I don't do it when I'm playing. Only at work.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Every game where there is an optimal way play and sub-optimal opportunities is played poorly in casinos. 95% of people don't care. They are there for entertainment.
This goes for video poker, as well as UTH, Three Card Poker, Blackjack, Let it Ride, etc, etc, etc.
ZCore13
The remarkable thing to me is that the internet, and now the proliferation of smart phones, doesn't seem to have changed that all that much. From what I can tell people want to listen to someone who's played a lot, figuring they've learned from experience.
Quote: odiousgambitThe remarkable thing to me is that the internet, and now the proliferation of smart phones, doesn't seem to have changed that all that much. From what I can tell people want to listen to someone who's played a lot, figuring they've learned from experience.
The thing I really hate is when dealers give the wrong advice to the players.
Whether well intentioned or not.Many of them say "the book says" and then proceed to give the wrong advice.
Yeah, that's painful to hear/watch because you know not only is that wrong, but that player is going to take that advice as their basic strategy for the rest of their playing days...Quote: HunterhillThe thing I really hate is when dealers give the wrong advice to the players.
Whether well intentioned or not.Many of them say "the book says" and then proceed to give the wrong advice.
Sometimes though you just can't help players... They lose once with AK then check it down with AK every other time they get it because "hey it's not that good of a hand if it lost the last time!" Meanwhile I'm being dealt 6-2 off every hand.
Quote: RomesYeah, that's painful to hear/watch because you know not only is that wrong, but that player is going to take that advice as their basic strategy for the rest of their playing days...
Sometimes though you just can't help players... They lose once with AK then check it down with AK every other time they get it because "hey it's not that good of a hand if it lost the last time!" Meanwhile I'm being dealt 6-2 off every hand.
From what I observed last week in Las Vegas, the dealers seemed reluctant to give playing advice on the actual hand. I did see them push for people to play the trips bet, but I think the casino pushes them to encourage the players to make those bets in all of the carnival games. I feel like dealers are afraid that they'll be blamed if their advice doesn't work out on the actual playing of the hand.
I model games as a hobby (always looking for an edge.) I have successfully modeled Mississippi Stud, which has a sequence of decisions that is similar to UTH -but that's only a 5-card stud hand that is compared to a payout table. I have also modeled Pai Gow Poker, 8-card poker, 4-card poker, 3-Card Poker, Chase the Flush and many BJ variants. UTH is much more complicated - the total of 9 cards, the sharing of 5 cards, the sequence of decisions, the dealer opening/qualifying, etc. makes it quite complex.
I have studied the WOO page on UTH - I understand the Return table of 56 outcomes but I confess that I cannot imagine how the Wizard calculated the number of combinations for those 56 scenarios - and I'm a very smart guy who does understand combination math. I consider it to be a very impressive accomplishment and I would love to have a high-level verbal description of the approach he took.
To ask a simple question:
Is there a straightforward way (other than a Monte Carlo simulation) to analyze, for a starting hand of J9o, whether one should BET 4x or not? Can anyone quote me the approximate EV for J9o when betting 4X and when NOT betting 4x? How do people in the forum analyze this?
- If needed, we can take as a groundrule the Wizard's strategy for the post-flop (2X) bet and the river decision (BET 1X or fold).
