kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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September 6th, 2012 at 11:23:05 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


While his opinion of AP is unpopular, can you really fault him for it?



Yes, I can and do fault him for it. I understand that he makes his living from the casino industry and as such, is protective of it. But that doesn't mean he should adopt and accept the industry belief that thinking is a crime. There is behavior that is not acceptable, some criminal such as capping and stunts like that. Hole-carding is a grey area. One could argue that is cheating or come right up to the line. But plays such as card counting do not of that. The player is playing the game exactly by the rules. The rules that the casino has set. Good god, are we to outlaw thinking? The casino gets to set the rules to their advantage. Now they want to hand pick who the players are. ANYONE WILLING TO NOT THINK IS WELCOME TO PLAY. Come on give me a break.

So I don't fault Dan for being supportive of the industry that feeds him. But I do fault him for blindly following, and apparently not being willing to think for himself. It is a matter of right and wrong. I am an advantage player. I support myself through legal advantage play, playing the games by the rules, but using my brain to play a winning game. But that doesn't mean I don't think for myself. Even though I make my living this way, I fully recognize there are some forms of AP that are not legit and I say so.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
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September 6th, 2012 at 11:30:30 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Where is this "Attack Dan" attitude coming from?

While his opinion of AP is unpopular, can you really fault him for it?



I can fault him, but I won't attack him. Two separate issues.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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September 6th, 2012 at 11:36:38 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Yes, I can and do fault him for it. I understand that he makes his living from the casino industry and as such, is protective of it. But that doesn't mean he should adopt and accept the industry belief that thinking is a crime.


Why not - or at least "wrong" or malfeasance? What is basically advocated by AP's is usually nothing short of Theft-of-services against a legitimate business that AP pretend to patronize.
Quote: kewlj

There is behavior that is not acceptable, some criminal such as capping and stunts like that.


Yes, I agree...you're going in the right direction over here...
Quote: kewlj

Hole-carding is a grey area.


No it's not, it's pretty dark. However, Dealer flashing, which is different, is more of a 'white' area for the player.
Quote: kewlj

One could argue that is cheating or come right up to the line. But plays such as card counting do not of that. The player is playing the game exactly by the rules. The rules that the casino has set.


No, the player is not, - and the Card-counter darn well knows this via camoflage, disguises, cover plays, all of which indicate the subterfuge that has to be masked. The casino gets to set the rules to their advantage.


So does every business - when it comes to loss prevention and theft of services.
Quote: kewlj

Now they want to hand pick who the players are. ANYONE WILLING TO NOT THINK IS WELCOME TO PLAY. Come on give me a break.


97% of players are Gamblers, and 3% of players are pros.

Quote: kewlj

So I don't fault Dan for being supportive of the industry that feeds him. But I do fault him for blindly following, and apparently not being willing to think for himself.


I thought it out thoroughly, and knowingly violating the house rules going in is a non-starter.
Quote: kewlj

It is a matter of right and wrong.


Exactly.
Quote: kewlj

I am an advantage player.


As a career, it's just foolish. As a pasttime, it is also foolish, in the end.
Quote: kewlj

I support myself through legal advantage play, playing the games by the rules, but using my brain to play a winning game.


Backed-off, 86-ed, 50% penetration, lousy game rules, CSM's, and flat-betting are all casino Legal advantage plays.
Quote: kewlj

But that doesn't mean I don't think for myself. Even though I make my living this way, I fully recognize there are some forms of AP that are not legit and I say so.


It isn't legit if the house doesn't consider it legit or playng by the rules - their rules. Period, end of story.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
kewlj
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:06:13 PM permalink
I am not here to debate you Dan, or even attempt to change your mind. You are entitled to your [misguided] views. I was just answering teddy's question about how someone can find fault with your views.

Saying something is foolish or stupid, just because you don't like it or agree with it, doesn't say much. How about offering a reason for this conclusion.

Quote: Paigowdan


As a career, it's just foolish. As a pasttime, it is also foolish, in the end.

buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:10:11 PM permalink
Come on Teddy. I admire Dan for not preaching to the choir. And he is more than capable of defending his positions. !
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:16:18 PM permalink
No, I can see how people can find fault with my views - it makes absolutely no sense to some. Some others come around and say, "yeah, I can see breaking the rules concerning loss prevention being an issue for any business." Most of the players we have come in for a clean game, don't take money they didn't legitimately win, and tell the dealer - "You overpaid me - here it is back - I didn't have a flush," etc.

And these people aren't career or amateur AP's - they're doctors, educators, data processing executives, film industry executives, teachers, real estate agents, and the like. Normal people who think that doing anything that may smack of theft-of-services as just unacceptable, and not what they're about as people.

And they are absolutely unfathomable to some professional gamblers.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Juyemura
Juyemura
Joined: Apr 8, 2012
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:23:13 PM permalink
"97% are gamblers, 3% are pros" - Paigowdan.

Do you really think that many people are pros? I would have guessed that number would be much smaller. May be about 1% or less.
Lottery:  A tax on people who are bad at math.
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
Joined: Mar 8, 2011
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:24:27 PM permalink
Divide that 3% by 100, my experience collecting for bookies.
MidwestAP
MidwestAP
Joined: Feb 19, 2012
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:35:58 PM permalink
I've found this constant debate between Dan (and a couple others) vs the vast majority on this site to be quite interesting. I've got to put myself in the camp that a player using statuatory LEGAL means to gain an advantage (such as card counting, taking advantage of a flashed card, etc.) should not all be considered 'cheating' or 'malfeasance'. In fact it's a smart thing to do. It's not akin to stealing or skipping out on a bus fare, it's using the advantage the game presents those that take the time to study and practice.

On the other hand, the casino has every right to address loss prevention (even though the loss opportunity is built into the game itself), and therefore I don't have issues with backing a player off, CSM's, 50% penetration, etc. I think some of these countermeasures will eventually hurt the bottom line instead of helping it, but it's still within the casino's right if they so choose.
teddys
teddys
Joined: Nov 14, 2009
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September 6th, 2012 at 12:41:58 PM permalink
I think what we all what to know is, Dan M., is your offer now open to any other forum members? I'll buy you a plate of ribs, no sauce...
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4

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