The Death of Dog (and Horse?) Racing

Snipped from MrCasinoGames' Gaming-News thread. The poll questions are...

1) Do you think Dog/Horse racing should be banned in the US?
2) Over/Under = They'll both be gone by 2050 in the US?

Quote: bobbartop

Quote: MrCasinoGames

11. Dog Racing Died Without A Funeral. http://bit.ly/30vknZZ

Good story about dog racing.

Yeah. And in Florida, a place synonymous with the sport no less. Who'd a thunk it?

The article is pretty even handed. If anything, it's sympathetic to the tracks and the workers which is surprising since the writer admits voting to eliminate the sport. It's interesting that slots and table games were first brought in the save the tracks and jobs and ended up simply replacing them. Remove the "R" from "Racino" and put the "C" back on I guess. Here's a pull quote from the article...

Quote: Deadspin

I asked him if he’ll end up betting on horses. He said he prefers the dogs. There’s a human on the back of the horse and that screws up the nature of betting. “I know that when that box opens up my dog is running as hard as he can, and if he gets shuffled in the turn, no human had anything to do with it,” Clark said.

I never though of it that way before. Assuming there is no illegal doping going on, the Greyhounds are as pure as racing gets.

As for the ethics (i.e. animal cruelty), each side makes good points. Who to believe? Certainly the sport was seedy in the old days but appears to have made big strides in its animal treatment. I don't know the adoption stats for retired dogs but I do know a couple who have an old racing greyhound (named "BBs Go Fast" or "Beebs" for short). Plus, when you consider how many dogs are put down in shelters every year, a racing dog at least has a life. Not as good a life as the loving home PETA would hope for perhaps but, when you consider how some owners treat their pets, a decent life.

In the end, however, it doesn't matter. With the fall of Florida, the animal rights activists have won the war with only a few minor pockets of dog racing resistance left to stamp out. And, as the article points out, greyhound racing (the oldest form of legal gambling in the state) was also a victim of increased gambling competition starting with the lottery and then the Indian casinos. With its popularity plummeting and its tax revenues being easily replaced elsewhere, it became a savvy move for politicians to do the "right" thing.

Will horse racing be next? It's certainly more respectable. The Sport of Kings! Good show ol' boy! It also has more money to defend itself. But, with the PR disaster actually closing the track at Santa Anita for an entire month this season, who knows? The sport is plummeting in popularity (it's now equal to woman's basketball) and is facing stiff competition from ever proliferating forms of legal gambling. Sound familiar? Plus, with victory assured on the dog racing front, activists can now train all their guns on horse racing. How long before politicians find it a savvy move to do the "right" thing? I would speculate that many people reading this thread will live to see the death of horse racing. Put the over/under at 2050.

Who knows? Maybe in the future this type of racing will return with robot dogs and horses racing around a track in a bizarre, life size version of Sigma Derbie in the Twilight Zone.

In China they bet on insect battles.

Both should be banned (as well as camel racing). All are cruel and unnecessary (and in my opinion not enjoyable) forms of gambling.

Just bet on a human team if you want to bet on sport related things.

If you want to make an argument that horse races can simulate an event with an uncertain outcome but predernined odds beforehand, there are plenty of machines that can accomplish this without using dogs and horses.

There is a lot more I can say about this, but it would be too political and non gambling related.....

Ban animal racing. No logical reason for it to exist anymore. If you want to bet in a fixed circuit race, lots of running and driving comps you can bet on..... Also, plenty of machines can easily simulate it.....

Dog racing sounds a little more brutal than horse.

At the end of the day, of all the animals we use, racing horses (and fighting bulls too) seem to have it pretty good. It's one of the more cognitively dissonant areas of our society how people who have no problem eating an animal that has been stuffed in a little box for its entire life suddenly get really upset when a racing horse has to be put down. It even seems to bother some people more than say, a human child starving to death.

How do people fit this in their heads?

Animal A: pumped full of chemicals, stuffed in a box, injured, brutally killed by design. (This is worth it because I slightly prefer pepperoni on my pizza over mushrooms.)

Animal B: Pretty well cared for. Used for a slightly risky purpose. Killed if it has a mishap. (This is horrible! I'm going to make it my mission in life to stop this!)

Human child: Born into poverty, or a war zone, or an abusive situation. (I'm not a fan of it, but it doesn't really bother me.)

Quote: Gialmere

The sport (horse racing) is plummeting in popularity

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy - horse racing is not even remotely close to dying or plummeting in popularity

today, a horse race not in the Triple Crown series, (the Travers) is on national television in about 34 minutes

the U.S. parimutuel handle was over $𝟏𝟏 𝐁𝐈𝐋𝐋𝐈𝐎𝐍 last year, the most since 2011 - and about 20% more than 1990

many fewer live attendees - but technology saved racings - gigantic sums are being bet at simulcast facilities and at ADW (advance deposit wagering - cyber) websites


http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=8

Quote: rxwine

In China they bet on insect battles.

Well, intentionally having animals injure or kill each other (dog fighting, cock fighting etc.) for the purpose of human gambling obviously crosses an ethical line. Animal racing, with ever shifting society morals, is a gray area. And how about bird singing wagering in Belgium? Birds are kept in cages at the casinos and punters get to wager on which ones will sing the longest and/or loudest. Would this be cruelty?

Oddly, it's currently illegal to wager on Battlebot competition. Perhaps because a human might throw the match.

Quote: lilredrooster

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy - horse racing is not even remotely close to dying or plummeting in popularity

today, a horse race not in the Triple Crown series, (the Travers) is on national television in about 34 minutes

the U.S. parimutuel handle was over $𝟏𝟏 𝐁𝐈𝐋𝐋𝐈𝐎𝐍 last year, the most since 2011 - and about 20% more than 1990

many fewer live attendees - but technology saved racings - gigantic sums are being bet at simulcast facilities and at ADW (advance deposit wagering - cyber) websites


http://www.jockeyclub.com/default.asp?section=FB&area=8

I won't argue the point. Perhaps internet betting will save horse racing. I've also read articles that support this view but note the sources are generally from those with a vested interest in the sport. Many other articles tell a different story. And you note yourself how track attendance is down. Facilities designed for 50-60k people are now lucky to attract 10k. Meanwhile millennials seem to have zero interest in the sport. In fact, one one of the biggest reasons for the decline in bettors is due to old age and death.

Imho, however, the sport will be outlawed in the US some time this century due to animal rights activism. (I'd take under in the poll.)

Quote: Gialmere

I won't argue the point. Perhaps internet betting will save horse racing. I've also read articles that support this view but note the sources are generally from those with a vested interest in the sport. Many other articles tell a different story. And you note yourself how track attendance is down. Facilities designed for 50-60k people are now lucky to attract 10k. Meanwhile millennials seem to have zero interest in the sport. In fact, one one of the biggest reasons for the decline in bettors is due to old age and death.

Imho, however, the sport will be outlawed in the US some time this century due to animal rights activism. (I'd take under in the poll.)

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy
you don't know jack about horse racing
like there's somebody in the world who gives a flying eff about your poll

Remember Stalag 17? The betting on field mice as if they were horses? Something will always be found.

The R in racino being replaced might be just a bit of public relations nonsense that the various negotiators worked out to save face with backers.

Quote: lilredrooster

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy
you don't know jack about horse racing

Time will tell.

Quote: Gialmere

Time will tell.

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy

like there's somebody in the world who gives a flying eff about your poll

Although I've been gambling since about the time it became legal for me, and grew up near Bonita Springs where they had dog racing. Never bet on dogs or horses.

And looks like they are closing that track.

Quote:

Florida’s greyhound racing era is ending, and the Naples-Fort Myers Greyhound Track is going down with the sport.
Plans are in the works for a new 30,000-square-foot poker room and restaurant to replace the track on the south side of Bonita Beach Road near Old 41 Road.
“Now that greyhound racing is illegal in 2020 and, presuming that half of our business is not coming anymore and the fact that the building is old, we thought it’s the perfect time to demolish the old and build new,” said Izzy Havenick, vice president for government relations for the track.
More than 69 percent of Florida voters voted for an amendment to end greyhound racing in the 2018 election. The sport will end by 2020

https://www.news-press.com/story/news/2019/02/14/bonita-greyhound-racing-track-could-demolished-replaced-poker-room/2874160002/

Quote: lilredrooster

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy

like there's somebody in the world who gives a flying eff about your poll

Apologies if this topic strikes a nerve. Believe it or not, I hope your analyses is correct. I don't, however, think it is.

Banned? Neither, although both need to be strictly controlled, and that includes the welfare of "retired" animals. There's a reason Homer Simpson's dog is a greyhound.

Will they be around in 2050? My gut says, horse racing will be - it's just too "traditional" for it not to be, and there will always be "horse people" interested in both the interests of the horses and the interests of racing to keep it going somewhere, even if, for example, the only racing left in California ends up being, say, Del Mar and three weeks at Pleasanton - but enough people against greyhound racing will band together and end up getting it banned nationwide, the way they prevented it from getting a foothold in California a few decades ago.

Also keep in mind that horse racing is popular outside of the USA, and that would help keep interest in the country going.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Banned? Neither, although both need to be strictly controlled, and that includes the welfare of "retired" animals. There's a reason Homer Simpson's dog is a greyhound.

Will they be around in 2050? My gut says, horse racing will be - it's just too "traditional" for it not to be, and there will always be "horse people" interested in both the interests of the horses and the interests of racing to keep it going somewhere, even if, for example, the only racing left in California ends up being, say, Del Mar and three weeks at Pleasanton - but enough people against greyhound racing will band together and end up getting it banned nationwide, the way they prevented it from getting a foothold in California a few decades ago.

Also keep in mind that horse racing is popular outside of the USA, and that would help keep interest in the country going.

It depends what you mean by "horse people", I know a lot of horse people (people that have ranches, horses, etc...) that hate horse racing (cruelty concerns).

I do agree that tradition will keep it alive for a long time, but I think by 2050 it will start to fade out, especially as VR machines and sims can make much more interesting bets (that will appeal far more to millennials ) than animal tracks.

I wish it would go sooner, but I fear that it may not. It may (probably) end up being a state by state issue where one progressive state bans it and others slowly follow suite (like with smoking bans).

A trainer like Charlie Whittingham, one of the greatest trainers of all time, RIP, died in 1999, didn't race 2 and 3-year olds. He didn't push young horses. If I was a horse, I am sure I would want to live in Whittingham's barn. Charlie, like most trainers, and like most people who work on the backside, LOVE their horses. THEY LOVE THEM! And horses, like greyhounds, they just love to run.

I've been at the track to see horses snap their legs in two before reaching the finish line, and the poor animal keeps hobbling toward the wire, hopelessly, because it's in their blood. They love running. They love to win too.

Are all trainers like Charlie Whittingham? Of course not.

Quote: bobbartop

A trainer like Charlie Whittingham, one of the greatest trainers of all time, RIP, died in 1999, didn't race 2 and 3-year olds. He didn't push young horses. If I was a horse, I am sure I would want to live in Whittingham's barn. Charlie, like most trainers, and like most people who work on the backside, LOVE their horses. THEY LOVE THEM! And horses, like greyhounds, they just love to run.

I've been at the track to see horses snap their legs in two before reaching the finish line, and the poor animal keeps hobbling toward the wire, hopelessly, because it's in their blood. They love running. They love to win too.

Are all trainers like Charlie Whittingham? Of course not.

I've seen a few articles about guys who REALLY LOVE THEIR HORSES.

Calidoscopio, was TEN YEARS OLD in this race. He was from Argentina. In places like Argentina and Chile, it is common to see old horses still racing, because they train for endurance, they don't push their youngsters, they don't run them when they're drugged up to mask the pain. The game is different down south. Watch this race. Truly an amazing performance. If you don't feel the excitement, if you don't get a tear in your eye watching this, you'll never understand horse racing.

Quote: lilredrooster

you don't know WTF you're talking about buddy
you don't know jack about horse racing
like there's somebody in the world who gives a flying eff about your poll

You are comparing 1990 dollars to 2017 dollars.
If you were making $100,000 in 1990 and made $120,000 in 2017, would you think you were on a.good projectile?
Not to mention the growth in the U.S. population.
I don't know all that much about racing, but what I do know is in the NY area, track attendance is down for 25 years ago and way down from the 1960s. Roosevelt used to routinely draw 25,000 on weekends. It's long closed. Yonkers and Aqueduct survive only because of the racino and Belmont is considering selling off two thirds of its parking lots and part of its backstretch.
NYC OTB is out of business and NY State OTBs claim they need Video lotteries to survive.
None of that gives me an impression of an industry that is thriving.

NASCAR and NHRA should adopt a parimutual betting format. Street racing produces some big wages, I think it might translate into pro racing. If I can legally bet on Nick Diaz, why not let me bet on a driver.

Quote: billryan

You are comparing 1990 dollars to 2017 dollars.
If you were making $100,000 in 1990 and made $120,000 in 2017, would you think you were on a.good projectile?
Not to mention the growth in the U.S. population.
I don't know all that much about racing, but what I do know is in the NY area, track attendance is down for 25 years ago and way down from the 1960s. Roosevelt used to routinely draw 25,000 on weekends. It's long closed. Yonkers and Aqueduct survive only because of the racino and Belmont is considering selling off two thirds of its parking lots and part of its backstretch.
NYC OTB is out of business and NY State OTBs claim they need Video lotteries to survive.
None of that gives me an impression of an industry that is thriving.

I grew up on the west side of Los Angeles. I was hanging out at the track long before I turned of age. I spent the first half of my life at places like Hollywood Park. There was no card room. There was no off-track betting. People went to the track to watch horse racing. There were huge crowds. Big races were on the Front Page headlines, not just the Sports section. Never in my wildest imagination could I picture a day when there would not be huge crowds at Hollywood Park. Now where is it? Only in my memories, that's where.

One of the two all news am radio stations in NY used to broadcast the races live. They actually worked the news around the racing. Every thirty minutes or so they would jump to the race call. Now it takes a tragedy to get any coverage outside of the Triple Crown or Breeders Cup.

Obviously the racinos have played a hand in the decline, I would have to take such a thing into consideration. Most of the time it's quite confusing finding the tracks at racinos and other times almost mysterious. I think I'd like an obligation kept in some form. In reality, none of that matters, politicians are short-sighted, so the companies will be spoiled.

Quote: billryan

One of the two all news am radio stations in NY used to broadcast the races live. They actually worked the news around the racing. Every thirty minutes or so they would jump to the race call. Now it takes a tragedy to get any coverage outside of the Triple Crown or Breeders Cup.

Bill, I've never been to New York in my life. But I know, I KNOW, that there were none more dedicated to horse racing than the fans in New York. Ever.

36 tracks have closed since 2000. Just 2 new ones have opened and one of them closed 2 years later.

Suffolk Downs, Massachusetts, closed 2019 after 84 years of abusing horses
Portland Meadows, Oregon, closed 2019 after 73 years of abusing horses
Hazel Park, Michigan, closed 2018 after 69 years of abusing horses
Les Bois Park, Idaho, closed 2016 after 46 years of abusing horses
Atlantic City Race Course, New Jersey, closed 2015 after 69 years of abusing horses
Balmoral Park, Illinois, closed 2015 after 89 years of abusing horses
Maywood Park, Illinois, closed 2015 after 69 years of abusing horses
Sports Creek Raceway, Michigan, closed 2015 after 28 years of abusing horses
Hollywood Park, California, closed 2013 after 75 years of abusing horses
Mount Pleasant Meadows, Michigan, closed 2013 after 28 years of abusing horses
Eureka Downs, Kansas, closed 2011 after 108 years of abusing horses
Atokad Downs, Nebraska, closed 2011 after 55 years of abusing horses
Northwest Montana Fair, closed 2011 after unknown number of years abusing horses
Yellowstone Downs, Montana, closed 2011 after 65 years of abusing horses
Blue Ribbon Downs, Oklahoma, closed 2010 after 47 years of abusing horses
Dayton Days, Washington, closed 2010 after 122 years of abusing horses
Manor Downs, Texas, closed 2010 after 20 years of abusing horses
Pinnacle Race Course, Michigan, closed 2010 after 2 years of abusing horses
Waitsburg, Washington, closed 2010 after 99 years of abusing horses
Walla Walla Fair, Washington, closed 2010 after 144 years of abusing horses
Western Montana Fair, closed 2010 after 96 years of abusing horses
Anthony Downs, Kansas, closed 2009 after 105 years of abusing horses
Rockingham Park, New Hampshire, closed 2009 after 103 years of abusing horses
Solano Fair, California, closed 2009 after 58 years of abusing horses
Bay Meadows, California, closed 2008 after 74 years of abusing horses
Jackson Harness Raceway, Michigan, closed 2008 after 60 years of abusing horses
Great Lakes Downs, Michigan, closed 2007 after 18 years of abusing horses
Rochester Fair, New Hampshire, closed 2007 after 73 years of abusing horses
Woodlands Racecourse, Kansas, closed 2007 after 17 years of abusing horses
Northampton Fair, Massachusetts, closed 2005 after 62 years of abusing horses
Saginaw Valley Downs, Michigan, closed 2005 after 25 years of abusing horses
Sportsman’s Park, Illinois, closed 2002 after 70 years of abusing horses
Brockton Fair, Massachusetts, closed 2001 after 60 years of abusing horses
Garden State Park Racetrack, New Jersey, closed 2001 after 59 years of abusing horses
Playfair Race Course, Washington, closed 2001 after 100 years of abusing horses
Lone Oak Park, Oregon, closed 2000 after 67 years of abusing horses

Quote: vegas

36 tracks have closed since 2000. Just 2 new ones have opened and one of them closed 2 years later.

Suffolk Downs, Massachusetts, closed 2019 after 84 years of abusing horses
Portland Meadows, Oregon, closed 2019 after 73 years of abusing horses
Hazel Park, Michigan, closed 2018 after 69 years of abusing horses
Les Bois Park, Idaho, closed 2016 after 46 years of abusing horses
Atlantic City Race Course, New Jersey, closed 2015 after 69 years of abusing horses
Balmoral Park, Illinois, closed 2015 after 89 years of abusing horses
Maywood Park, Illinois, closed 2015 after 69 years of abusing horses
Sports Creek Raceway, Michigan, closed 2015 after 28 years of abusing horses
Hollywood Park, California, closed 2013 after 75 years of abusing horses
Mount Pleasant Meadows, Michigan, closed 2013 after 28 years of abusing horses
Eureka Downs, Kansas, closed 2011 after 108 years of abusing horses
Atokad Downs, Nebraska, closed 2011 after 55 years of abusing horses
Northwest Montana Fair, closed 2011 after unknown number of years abusing horses
Yellowstone Downs, Montana, closed 2011 after 65 years of abusing horses
Blue Ribbon Downs, Oklahoma, closed 2010 after 47 years of abusing horses
Dayton Days, Washington, closed 2010 after 122 years of abusing horses
Manor Downs, Texas, closed 2010 after 20 years of abusing horses
Pinnacle Race Course, Michigan, closed 2010 after 2 years of abusing horses
Waitsburg, Washington, closed 2010 after 99 years of abusing horses
Walla Walla Fair, Washington, closed 2010 after 144 years of abusing horses
Western Montana Fair, closed 2010 after 96 years of abusing horses
Anthony Downs, Kansas, closed 2009 after 105 years of abusing horses
Rockingham Park, New Hampshire, closed 2009 after 103 years of abusing horses
Solano Fair, California, closed 2009 after 58 years of abusing horses
Bay Meadows, California, closed 2008 after 74 years of abusing horses
Jackson Harness Raceway, Michigan, closed 2008 after 60 years of abusing horses
Great Lakes Downs, Michigan, closed 2007 after 18 years of abusing horses
Rochester Fair, New Hampshire, closed 2007 after 73 years of abusing horses
Woodlands Racecourse, Kansas, closed 2007 after 17 years of abusing horses
Northampton Fair, Massachusetts, closed 2005 after 62 years of abusing horses
Saginaw Valley Downs, Michigan, closed 2005 after 25 years of abusing horses
Sportsman’s Park, Illinois, closed 2002 after 70 years of abusing horses
Brockton Fair, Massachusetts, closed 2001 after 60 years of abusing horses
Garden State Park Racetrack, New Jersey, closed 2001 after 59 years of abusing horses
Playfair Race Course, Washington, closed 2001 after 100 years of abusing horses
Lone Oak Park, Oregon, closed 2000 after 67 years of abusing horses

With all due respect, that's a bunch of horse crap. I'll tell you exactly why those tracks closed, and it's not because of abuse, which is only in your imagination. Horse racing has declined, because all the fkg little morons nowadays have to have their instant gratification, their x-boxes or whatever they're called, they walk on the street not looking where they're going because they've got their face glued to their i-phones texting each other. The generation of today doesn't have the patience to sit a half hour between races, or use their brains to study the Form, the kids now days need everything NOW NOW NOW. Gimmee gimmee gimmee. This generation sucks.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Obviously the racinos have played a hand in the decline, I would have to take such a thing into consideration. Most of the time it's quite confusing finding the tracks at racinos and other times almost mysterious. I think I'd like an obligation kept in some form. In reality, none of that matters, politicians are short-sighted, so the companies will be spoiled.

Racinos are saving many small tracks. Yonkers had closed for several years and since reopening has greatly increased the purses, which attracts better horses.

Quote: billryan

One of the two all news am radio stations in NY used to broadcast the races live. They actually worked the news around the racing. Every thirty minutes or so they would jump to the race call. Now it takes a tragedy to get any coverage outside of the Triple Crown or Breeders Cup.

I actually think horse racing is better off being a lower tier sport, flying below the radar of network television for all but its most prestiges events. Considering the current moral climate, every time a race is seen by a large crowd the sport is putting all its integrity on the line. Should a major tragedy (where several horses end up euthanized) now take place and is witnessed by millions live on television, the future of horse racing would grow very dark, very quickly.

Quote: Gialmere

I actually think horse racing is better off being a lower tier sport, flying below the radar of network television for all but its most prestiges events. Considering the current moral climate, every time a race is seen by a large crowd the sport is putting all its integrity on the line. Should a major tragedy (where several horses end up euthanized) now take place and is witnessed by millions live on television, the future of horse racing would grow very dark, very quickly.

That's an interesting comment. Thanks for this post.

But while we're talking about the plight of animals, if anyone cares about animals, it's way overdue that something should be done about those a-holes in Spain and their damn bull-fighting. It is barbaric. The bull has zero chance. And I really don't feel sorry for a matador who gets a horn stuck through his abdomen. Gee, that's too bad. I remember a few years ago a matador got killed by a bull, (a bull that he was trying to torture and kill slowly), and do you know what those jerks in Spain did? Not only did they kill the bull, but they even found the bull's mother and killed her, to get even for the matador. That's some sick sh*t right there.

Quote: bobbartop

That's an interesting comment. Thanks for this post.

But while we're talking about the plight of animals, if anyone cares about animals, it's way overdue that something should be done about those a-holes in Spain and their damn bull-fighting. It is barbaric. The bull has zero chance. And I really don't feel sorry for a matador who gets a horn stuck through his abdomen. Gee, that's too bad. I remember a few years ago a matador got killed by a bull, (a bull that he was trying to torture and kill slowly), and do you know what those jerks in Spain did? Not only did they kill the bull, but they even found the bull's mother and killed her, to get even for the matador. That's some sick sh*t right there.

Lots of that has been eliminated. There hasn't been bullfighting in Barcelona for years.

a lot of the chatter here has referred to harness racing tracks

that's a totally different thing - yes they are dying

but not thoroughbred racing

yes many little tracks are gone because bettors betting big want to bet into big pools so the parimutuel system doesn't shoot them in the foot

once again, at the big, popular tracks gigantic sums are being wagered

yes, attendance is down - people don't want to go except for the huge events - they prefer the convenience of betting on computer - but wagering levels are strong

I generally only bet by computer. I don't pay for parking, gas, admission or a program. I don't pay $6.00 for a bottle of water - I'm comfortably waiting for the next race I want to bet which may be hours away - no wasting my time driving around trying to avoid getting killed by the aggressive maniacs on the roads where I live - because of this betting racing is much, much better than it used to be

gamblers love gigantic payoffs - racing has very successfully morphed their betting platform so that gamblers have opportunities for gigantic payouts in the Pick 6, Pick 5, superfectas and several other gimmicks - racetrack management actually got something right in that regard






if you want to talk about the future of horse racing you can't consider harness racing and thoroughbred racing together and come to any logical conclusions

you have to consider them separately to make any reasonable judgements

Quote: AxelWolf

I've seen a few articles about guys who REALLY LOVE THEIR HORSES.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumclaw_horse_sex_case

One of my favorite stories ever.

Still laugh about them just dropping the guy off at the hospital.

Quote: lilredrooster

a lot of the chatter here has referred to harness racing tracks

that's a totally different thing - yes they are dying

but not thoroughbred racing

yes many little tracks are gone because bettors betting big want to bet into big pools so the parimutuel system doesn't shoot them in the foot

once again, at the big, popular tracks gigantic sums are being wagered

yes, attendance is down - people don't want to go except for the huge events - they prefer the convenience of betting on computer - but wagering levels are strong

I generally only bet by computer. I don't pay for parking, gas, admission or a program. I don't pay $6.00 for a bottle of water - I'm comfortably waiting for the next race I want to bet which may be hours away - no wasting my time driving around trying to avoid getting killed by the aggressive maniacs on the roads where I live - because of this betting racing is much, much better than it used to be

gamblers love gigantic payoffs - racing has very successfully morphed their betting platform so that gamblers have opportunities for gigantic payouts in the Pick 6, Pick 5, superfectas and several other gimmicks - racetrack management actually got something right in that regard






if you want to talk about the future of horse racing you can't consider harness racing and thoroughbred racing together and come to any logical conclusions

you have to consider them separately to make any reasonable judgements

Evidently, you don't consider Belmont, Aqueduct or the Meadowlands to be big popular tracks because outside of Belmont Stakes week, none of them draw flies.

The desire to watch animals run around in a circle and "study" race forms to decide which one to make a wager with an absurd amount withheld from the betting pool has nothing to do with patience. I think it has a good deal to do with intelligence.

Quote: billryan

NASCAR and NHRA should adopt a parimutual betting format. Street racing produces some big wages, I think it might translate into pro racing. If I can legally bet on Nick Diaz, why not let me bet on a driver.

You can bet on NASCAR races at pretty much any sports book, albeit not pari-mutuel. I can see two problems with trying to do it at tracks; one, it would be too hard to implement; two, considering how many drivers are in teams, it would be too easy to rig a result if there was enough bet money involved. (They say that they don't do that now because each driver has his own sponsor, but there just isn't enough incentive for it at the moment, especially with the "we won't disqualify anybody for failing a post-race inspection - we don't want the fans to have to wait until the next day to find out who won" mentality that NASCAR has.)

Quote: bobbartop

With all due respect, that's a bunch of horse crap. I'll tell you exactly why those tracks closed, and it's not because of abuse, which is only in your imagination. Horse racing has declined, because all the fkg little morons nowadays have to have their instant gratification, their x-boxes or whatever they're called, they walk on the street not looking where they're going because they've got their face glued to their i-phones texting each other. The generation of today doesn't have the patience to sit a half hour between races, or use their brains to study the Form, the kids now days need everything NOW NOW NOW. Gimmee gimmee gimmee. This generation sucks.

I don't know about other tracks, but Bay Meadows was taking up a substantial amount of Silicon Valley real estate.
For those of you who just replied, "What about the other tracks in the Bay Area?", Golden Gate Fields is pretty much on swampland, and the rest of the tracks are part of fairgrounds deep in the suburbs.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

You can bet on NASCAR races at pretty much any sports book, albeit not pari-mutuel. I can see two problems with trying to do it at tracks; one, it would be too hard to implement; two, considering how many drivers are in teams, it would be too easy to rig a result if there was enough bet money involved. (They say that they don't do that now because each driver has his own sponsor, but there just isn't enough incentive for it at the moment, especially with the "we won't disqualify anybody for failing a post-race inspection - we don't want the fans to have to wait until the next day to find out who won" mentality that NASCAR has.)


I don't know about other tracks, but Bay Meadows was taking up a substantial amount of Silicon Valley real estate.
For those of you who just replied, "What about the other tracks in the Bay Area?", Golden Gate Fields is pretty much on swampland, and the rest of the tracks are part of fairgrounds deep in the suburbs.

That was Roosevelt Raceways curse. It sat on prime real estate and after chopping off a few small outcroppings to raise capital, they kept running in the red and had nothing left to sell but either the parking lots or the grandstand. On the Brightside, it created over thousand apartments and a couple thousand permanent jobs. Gaining access to newly created roads also alleviated a growing traffic problem.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I don't know about other tracks, but Bay Meadows was taking up a substantial amount of Silicon Valley real estate.

Same with Santa Anita. I guess Hollywood Park too.

Quote: billryan

Evidently, you don't consider Belmont, Aqueduct or the Meadowlands to be big popular tracks because outside of Belmont Stakes week, none of them draw flies.

Belmont draws huge off track wagering during all of their meets - Saratoga draws both large crowds and huge wagering every single day it operates

Meadowlands is mainly for harness and has moved almost all of its thoroughbred racing operations to Monmouth

as I said, to correctly assess the situation it's necessary to consider thoroughbred racing separately

you point only to failures in the industry - most corporate projects are a mixture of successes and failures

to say that thoroughbred racing is failing is false - it's compressing - not failing



you mentioned Aqueduct - 𝐨𝐧 𝐚 𝐖𝐞𝐝𝐧𝐞𝐬𝐝𝐚𝐲 in April, 2019 in 𝐣𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐨𝐧𝐞 crummy little maiden race Aqueduct handled $141K in the win, place, show pool, $70K in the exacta pool, $37K in the trifecta pool and $15K in the superfecta pool


does that sound like failure to you?


http://www.equibase.com/premium/chartEmb.cfm?track=AQU&raceDate=04/17/2019&cy=USA&rn=1





outside of the U.S. thoroughbred racing is flourishing in England, France, Ireland, Australia and Japan

Hong Kong is a very special place for racing - an average of $17.4 million (U.S. value) is bet on each race

The Hong Kong Jockey Club Charities Trust donated a record $3.6 billion in 2014 to support the different needs of the society and contribute to the betterment of Hong Kong.

Any chance Billy is Fez from the old Ron and Fez show?

Would explain a lot.

Quote: lilredrooster

to say that thoroughbred racing is failing is false - it's compressing - not failing

You argue a good point. Compressing, not failing, not bad.

My two cents is that the new customers are not there like the sport used to enjoy. YOUNG PEOPLE, are not into it. For one thing, it's not enough action for this generation. When I was a boy, and I mean a really young boy, instead of playing cowboys and Indians I would get on my swing set or the teeter totter and pretend to be a jockey riding an imaginary race horse. Wtf, I was maybe 6 or 7 years old. I knew the horses' names. lol Native Diver, Gun Bow, Kelso. I would call their names like I was an announcer. I was 6 years old. That ain't gonna happen no more. Kids aren't interested, and their parents don't take them to the track. There's no one to teach them about the game.

Another thing, all the small tracks that are history now, the small track circuit used to feed into the big circuit. The big circuit needs the support of the small tracks, the fair meets, etc. And what are you going to do with a 5-year old $2500 Claimer? Not Belmont. Not Del Mar.

By the way, you bring up Hong Kong, I meant to say that earlier. Huge handles! Wow.

If you don't want to talk about racings failures, lets talk about its success's.
I have nothing so please start the list.
Has there been a major new track built in the last twenty years? How about since The Meadowlands opened, and that is at least thirty years ago? As the population has been shifting to the South West, have tracks opened or expanded?
I have seen one bar in Arizona that advertises it has OTB and there are a few cars in the lot but I've never stopped in.
When I was a little kid, my Uncle had horses and all my cousins had interest in horses to an extent, but none of our kids did. I imagine the last time my nephews went to a track was when they were kids and we took them to Breakfast at Belmont.
Racing is still big in Europe and the ME but you have a long way to go to convince me its not on its last legs in America.

Quote: bobbartop

That's an interesting comment. Thanks for this post.

But while we're talking about the plight of animals, if anyone cares about animals, it's way overdue that something should be done about those a-holes in Spain and their damn bull-fighting. It is barbaric. The bull has zero chance. And I really don't feel sorry for a matador who gets a horn stuck through his abdomen. Gee, that's too bad. I remember a few years ago a matador got killed by a bull, (a bull that he was trying to torture and kill slowly), and do you know what those jerks in Spain did? Not only did they kill the bull, but they even found the bull's mother and killed her, to get even for the matador. That's some sick sh*t right there.

From what I know, they eat the bull at it has a far better life than most of the animals we eat.

Glad I got to see a bull fighting Barcelona before they were gone.

Quote: Rigondeaux

Glad I got to see a bull fighting Barcelona before they were gone.

I don't get it. I just don't understand people. Here in Central California every now and then I will hear on the news about people arrested for fighting dogs, or chickens, it's so sick, it's so cruel.

Bull fighting originated with the Ancient Romans. They were some sick bastards themselves.

I was recently watching a youtube video about what happened to Hannibal and Carthage. Omg.

My wife and I go to Del Mar race track in San Diego once every year. Neither of us are into horse racing but we really enjoy going and seeing them once a year. We don't really know anything about betting or handicapping races but we still bet our $2 a race on a horse we like for some reason (usually the name or in my case odds between 8:1 and 12:1).

That is one of our favorite days each year. I would really miss it if it went away. Just a great day outside and a great event.

Quote: DRich

My wife and I go to Del Mar race track in San Diego once every year. Neither of us are into horse racing but we really enjoy going and seeing them once a year. We don't really know anything about betting or handicapping races but we still bet our $2 a race on a horse we like for some reason (usually the name or in my case odds between 8:1 and 12:1).

That is one of our favorite days each year. I would really miss it if it went away. Just a great day outside and a great event.

Heaven on Earth. Opening Day always exciting. I can close my eyes right now and imagine the train blowing its horn in the background. Great memories.

Quote: bobbartop

I don't get it. I just don't understand people. Here in Central California every now and then I will hear on the news about people arrested for fighting dogs, or chickens, it's so sick, it's so cruel.

Bull fighting originated with the Ancient Romans. They were some sick bastards themselves.

I was recently watching a youtube video about what happened to Hannibal and Carthage. Omg.

I don't understand how people who eat factory farmed meat get upset about such things. I'd WAY rather be a fighting bull than one of those animals

One thing about bull fighting is you confront the reality of where your food comes from.

If the bull died from running around in a circle for our amusement, that would be awesome, but some guy stabs it so that's evil?

I don't get this math.

Like opening (or derby) day at a horse track, a bullfight is filled with pageantry. The costumes. The traditions. It's hard for a people (or a culture) to give that up no matter what the morals of the current powers that be.

Speaking of bulls, any thoughts on rodeo? Bull and bronco riding? It's a popular sport that the animals don't seem to enjoy very much. Oddly, I can't recall animal rights activists complaining about it. Maybe because the humans are put in far more danger.
___________

It occurs to me that the Ringling Brothers circus went down a similar path: increased competition from new entertainments, parents not passing down the tradition, the animal acts disappearing one-by-one. The death knell rang when they took the elephants although the writing had been on the wall for years, decades really. And, like the dog handlers in the OP story, the circus performers all said how much they loved the animals and that the animals loved what they did.

Quote: sabre

The desire to watch animals run around in a circle and "study" race forms to decide which one to make a wager with an absurd amount withheld from the betting pool has nothing to do with patience. I think it has a good deal to do with intelligence.

I think you're underestimating the historical interest in horse racing for hundreds of years. Heck, there were pre-colonial formal races and betting pools in this country. Most of the big tracks in the East go back to the 19th century. Many in Europe go back to the 18th.

Maybe it's outlived its interest base, but I don't think so. The Internet has saved it, by allowing people to bet from anywhere and see the races through dedicated tv broadcasts. People only come to the stands for the big show, yes, but the handle getting bet remotely dwarfs the on site action everywhere.

The Santa Anita situation got largely diffused, imo, by the stewards taking extreme action to (hopefully) fix the problem. But I only know a little about the sport, so I could be wrong about the strength of the animal abuse protest movement.

I voted against the Greyhound racing ban here, fwiw. It was a bad amendment and overstated the situation. The vast majority of dogs were not being mistreated, and dogs too old to race are getting adopted through a well- organized network.

The dogs loved racing - they're built for it, they're getting well-fed and cared for because they race better if they are. I didn't see the harm in it. Like most things, there are always idiots who abuse the situation and make the whole sport look bad, but imo that's a question of standards and enforcement among humans, not animal abuse in general.

Quote: Rigondeaux

I don't understand how people who eat factory farmed meat get upset about such things. I'd WAY rather be a fighting bull than one of those animals

One thing about bull fighting is you confront the reality of where your food comes from.

If the bull died from running around in a circle for our amusement, that would be awesome, but some guy stabs it so that's evil?

I don't get this math.

So brave, fight a bull with zero chance, for your amusement. As I said earlier, it stems from the sick ass Romans fighting gladiators to the death. Oh, and the crowds were amused.

Why not step up the game, make it so the bull and the matador each have a 50% chance of getting their guts ripped out on the ground. See how brave they are then. See what a real man is made of.

Quote: Gialmere

Speaking of bulls, any thoughts on rodeo? Bull and bronco riding?

Yeah, it sucks. Ban it.

Real men are kind to animals.