TennisRatings
TennisRatings
Joined: Mar 30, 2019
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December 17th, 2019 at 9:39:44 AM permalink
Hi all - long time AP from UK here, have been playing slots as AP for majority of last 20 years. Most stuff is very different to US stuff although most principles are broadly similar.

Have been in Vegas for the first time in a decade throughout the last week & was wondering what you guys thought the average strip % was for their slots...

Might do a trip report when I get back but cliff notes are I've done ok - taught myself most of the US based slot AP strats plus a few others when I saw 'players' check stuff & then I just YouTubed the slot to work it out myself.

But the very basic stuff like GE/OM etc are just horrific here. Not so much the volume of plays (I expected them to be dreadful) but how they play when in + EV scenarios. I've played them a lot in Europe but those are 92-94% usually and it's a completely different (and more generous game) in Europe. Basically never lose 10x+ of stake, on the strip in Vegas it's been pretty commonplace for me...
DRich
DRich
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AxelWolf
December 17th, 2019 at 10:54:52 AM permalink
Quote: TennisRatings

Hi all - long time AP from UK here, have been playing slots as AP for majority of last 20 years. Most stuff is very different to US stuff although most principles are broadly similar.

Have been in Vegas for the first time in a decade throughout the last week & was wondering what you guys thought the average strip % was for their slots...

Might do a trip report when I get back but cliff notes are I've done ok - taught myself most of the US based slot AP strats plus a few others when I saw 'players' check stuff & then I just YouTubed the slot to work it out myself.

But the very basic stuff like GE/OM etc are just horrific here. Not so much the volume of plays (I expected them to be dreadful) but how they play when in + EV scenarios. I've played them a lot in Europe but those are 92-94% usually and it's a completely different (and more generous game) in Europe. Basically never lose 10x+ of stake, on the strip in Vegas it's been pretty commonplace for me...



I would say that most of the video slots on the strip are 12% to 15% hold.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
TDVegas
TDVegas
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December 17th, 2019 at 11:31:07 AM permalink
Quote: TennisRatings

Hi all - long time AP from UK here, have been playing slots as AP for majority of last 20 years. Most stuff is very different to US stuff although most principles are broadly similar.

Have been in Vegas for the first time in a decade throughout the last week & was wondering what you guys thought the average strip % was for their slots...

Might do a trip report when I get back but cliff notes are I've done ok - taught myself most of the US based slot AP strats plus a few others when I saw 'players' check stuff & then I just YouTubed the slot to work it out myself.

But the very basic stuff like GE/OM etc are just horrific here. Not so much the volume of plays (I expected them to be dreadful) but how they play when in + EV scenarios. I've played them a lot in Europe but those are 92-94% usually and it's a completely different (and more generous game) in Europe. Basically never lose 10x+ of stake, on the strip in Vegas it's been pretty commonplace for me...


Casinos in Vegas guard their hold percentages on slots like Fort Knox guards gold. I know of no casino that reveals their hold percentages for various slots. I don't believe the gaming public really knows. Video poker does state return and odds on other video type games for roulette or blackjack work off RNG's or 52 decks. So we know on those what the odds and chances are. Traditional slots?

Traditional slots...different animal. I don't think you will ever truly know or figure it out what the hold percentage is. First off, they don't want you knowing. That concept would invite competition between casinos....can't have that. Cue sarcasm.

There are some various publications that talk of loose slots...but some of these writer/players are on the casino payroll in one form or another.

In a perfect world....each and every slot would tell the player what the hold percentage is for $5...for $3....and down to .25 cent bets. Again, that would invite competition and that's the last thing the casino industry wants. You may hear some generic discussion on percentages and what the Strip is holding and what downtown is holding...but those specific numbers per machine are generally only known to a few within the casino.

I've never heard of an AP slot player.....playing traditional hold percentage slots? You're saying you are beating slots?
TennisRatings
TennisRatings
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December 17th, 2019 at 11:38:43 AM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Casinos in Vegas guard their hold percentages on slots like Fort Knox guards gold. I know of no casino that reveals their hold percentages for various slots. I don't believe the gaming public really knows. Video poker does state return and odds on other video type games for roulette or blackjack work off RNG's or 52 decks. So we know on those what the odds and chances are. Traditional slots?

Traditional slots...different animal. I don't think you will ever truly know or figure it out what the hold percentage is. First off, they don't want you knowing. That concept would invite competition between n't have that. Cue sarcasm.

There are some various publications that talk of loose slots...but some of these writer/players are on the casino payroll in one form or another.

In a perfect world....each and every slot would tell the player what the hold percentage is for r $3....and down to .25 cent bets. Again, that would invite competition and that's the last thing the casino industry wants. You may hear some generic discussion on percentages and what the Strip is holding and what downtown is holding...but those specific numbers per machine are generally only known to a few within the casino.



Thanks - it's really strange that US casinos take this approach. In UK it is compulsory for the slot to either have the target % on the help/game rules menu for video slots (eg all grosvenor casinos are 94.08%) or for physical reel-based slots in pubs the minimum payout % has to be advertised physically on the machine.

In Europe it's not compulsory although places will advertise a general payout % on their slots across the casino.
TDVegas
TDVegas
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December 17th, 2019 at 12:03:10 PM permalink
Quote: TennisRatings

Thanks - it's really strange that US casinos take this approach. In UK it is compulsory for the slot to either have the target % on the help/game rules menu for video slots (eg all grosvenor casinos are 94.08%) or for physical reel-based slots in pubs the minimum payout % has to be advertised physically on the machine.

In Europe it's not compulsory although places will advertise a general payout % on their slots across the casino.


Nope. Different here. Video poker machines will tell you the payback (hold).

Traditional slots (Buffalo, double diamond, willy wonka, etc, etc.).....nope.
scolist
scolist
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December 17th, 2019 at 12:36:53 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Nope. Different here. Video poker machines will tell you the payback (hold).



Where will you find this info on these machines?
There's no way out of here When you come in You're in for good There was no promise made The part you played The chance...........you took
DRich
DRich
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December 17th, 2019 at 12:39:07 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas

Casinos in Vegas guard their hold percentages on slots like Fort Knox guards gold. I know of no casino that reveals their hold percentages for various slots. I don't believe the gaming public really knows. Video poker does state return and odds on other video type games for roulette or blackjack work off RNG's or 52 decks. So we know on those what the odds and chances are. Traditional slots?



Many of us that work for slot manufacturers know exactly what the casinos are ordering and what they want the default percentage to be. It is definitely in the 12% to 15% hold.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
TDVegas
TDVegas
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scolist
December 17th, 2019 at 1:04:05 PM permalink
Quote: scolist

Where will you find this info on these machines?


At my casino....many of the video poker machines will say it right on the machine. "98% Payback". I don't play video poker so I am not familiar with every VP machine....but many state the payback (up to 100%) on some.

I'll see if I can get a picture up.
TDVegas
TDVegas
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December 17th, 2019 at 1:10:15 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Many of us that work for slot manufacturers know exactly what the casinos are ordering and what they want the default percentage to be. It is definitely in the 12% to 15% hold.


Correct. If you are an insider....you would know. I would imagine a slot manufacturer would not be at all happy to know that their employees are disclosing this info publicly but I'm sure there are some who know what % chip is in what machine and where was it shipped.

Beyond that....hold percentages are generally a closely guarded casino secret....between them and manufacturer. Your range is probably about right but I did hear one instance of a slot manager in Vegas stating he ordered his $5 machines at 94%....and it went down from there (92.5%....90%) based on denomination wagered. That was the one and only time I ever heard an employee discuss this. He didn't specify which games either.

In a general sense...they don't want the public knowing.
Boz
Boz
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December 17th, 2019 at 1:20:59 PM permalink
Quote: TDVegas



In a general sense...they don't want the public knowing.



Actually the vast majority of slot players donít care, nor understand holds and payback. Nor does it stop them.

Scratch tickets return 50% or less yet millions are sold everyday and many gift them at Christmas. Probably the worst Christmas gift out there but you always hear about the person who won a Million. Never about about the 2 Million in losers that paid for it.

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