100xOdds
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June 30th, 2016 at 8:26:36 PM permalink
Saw this:


the machine on the right seems better than the one on the left.

then I thought "When is a slot machine (in general) worth playing?
(assume it's set to the higher of:
-minimum payout allowed by state law
-minimal payout possible by the manufacturer)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
GWAE
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June 30th, 2016 at 8:33:50 PM permalink
Depends on machine and that is a question that most likely won't be answered on here.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
100xOdds
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July 5th, 2016 at 7:30:31 PM permalink
Update:
Found out Reset amount is $5k
:o
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Wizardofnothing
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July 5th, 2016 at 8:19:03 PM permalink
Plus ev and worth playing are two totally different things. Lionshare at mgm was positive ev but not worth playing-
It all depends on the cycle . Powerball earlier in the year was an edge but not worth playing , I find games all the time that are huge progressives above the reset but still not worth a dollar from my pocket
No longer hiring, donít ask because I wonít hire you either
Mobcasinos
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July 7th, 2016 at 1:44:09 AM permalink
It will always depend on the machine. Sometimes it will be the other way around. Machines payout also depend on their programmed loops.
TomG
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July 7th, 2016 at 9:47:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizardofnothing

Powerball earlier in the year was an edge but not worth playing



Disagree on the first part: there was a 1 in 292 million chance of hitting a jackpot worth a lump sum of $561 million (after federal taxes; if you bought your ticket or live in 37 of the 44 states that sell powerball, it would be reduced even further from state taxes). Unfortunately, given that the previous drawing sold over 400 million tickets, the chance of a split took away any possible edge.

Though I agree on the second part, perhaps 100 million Americans disagree: even without an edge they all still thought it was worth playing
BTLWI
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July 7th, 2016 at 12:40:35 PM permalink
The amount you win can affect generations of your family. The amount you lose ($1-5) affects nothing because that small amount has no utility value.

Thanks for reminding me to pick up some mega millions tickets.
Casinodepositor
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July 8th, 2016 at 12:29:21 AM permalink
Actually if the machine display bigger jackpot than the other machine is because more player used that machine compare to others. The machine logs the transaction plays it receive then add to the jackpot. All machines has the same program so if your try to reset all those machine and play the same number of people it will still display almost similar jackpot.
AxelWolf
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July 8th, 2016 at 1:23:46 AM permalink
Quote: TomG

Disagree on the first part: there was a 1 in 292 million chance of hitting a jackpot worth a lump sum of $561 million (after federal taxes; if you bought your ticket or live in 37 of the 44 states that sell powerball, it would be reduced even further from state taxes). Unfortunately, given that the previous drawing sold over 400 million tickets, the chance of a split took away any possible edge.

Though I agree on the second part, perhaps 100 million Americans disagree: even without an edge they all still thought it was worth playing

you just have to make one huge BJ bet win or lose (-;
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Dean
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July 16th, 2016 at 10:27:42 PM permalink
It's possible that the machine on the left JUST paid out minutes before you saw those machines. Most progressives drop considerably when the top prize progressive is won. Machine on the right is possible it hasn't paid out yet which is why it is over $17,000(which is really more like $10,000 once the IRS gets involved, ;)
Really, dude, you tried to buy a flat screen TV for only $3.99? Get out of here, you scam, con arist!
100xOdds
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July 17th, 2016 at 7:30:18 AM permalink
Quote: Dean

It's possible that the machine on the left JUST paid out minutes before you saw those machines. Most progressives drop considerably when the top prize progressive is won. Machine on the right is possible it hasn't paid out yet which is why it is over $17,000(which is really more like $10,000 once the IRS gets involved, ;)


no.
i went back a few weeks later and the machine on the left hit and was reset to $5k.
the machine on the right was at $19k or something like that.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Dean
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August 1st, 2016 at 1:42:06 AM permalink
I would say a slot is worth playing when it is only $5 or less than it's "Must hit" by number. For example, I say a slot saying something like "Major Jackpot-$500, must hit by $500!"n and it was at $495 and was flashing like crazy. I would say that is the only time a slot, at least for the Progresssive slots is really worth playing, although I do remember a gambler saying, "The Must hit at a progressive was only about $2 away from the Major jackpot on some type of Bier Haus machine, and I had no idea how progressive slots worked at the time as this was my first time looking at a progressive slot and I assumed I would just play $2 and I would get the Major. I ended up having to play about $300 before I got the $500 Major as the meter moved so incredibly slow."
Really, dude, you tried to buy a flat screen TV for only $3.99? Get out of here, you scam, con arist!
onenickelmiracle
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August 1st, 2016 at 2:18:20 AM permalink
Casinos are so greedy these days, I wouldn't bother taking a large progressive too seriously. They know people will chase the jackpots and some casinos will exploit players with ultra tight settings. When I talk about the local Hollywood, I always say the Ohio lottery is diabolically greedy and corrupt, and people think I'm joking. Refer to the old wisdom, you can't trust a slot machine. Maybe not all casinos are predatory, but the ones which turn the tables on our trust are. I think it is better to allow a few disciplined people to win a little than to hurt everyone with tight slots as counter-measures, but the casinos dgaf.


I'll tell you if it was worth , it would be played and not just sitting there. At least wait until you see a herd of people pumping thousands paranoid looking over their shoulders before you try. They want that jp and need it, worried which guy will come up behind them hitting it right away.
I am a robot.
AxelWolf
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August 5th, 2016 at 4:37:25 AM permalink
Quote: Dean

I would say a slot is worth playing when it is only $5 or less than it's "Must hit" by number. For example, I say a slot saying something like "Major Jackpot-$500, must hit by $500!"n and it was at $495 and was flashing like crazy. I would say that is the only time a slot, at least for the Progresssive slots is really worth playing, although I do remember a gambler saying, "The Must hit at a progressive was only about $2 away from the Major jackpot on some type of Bier Haus machine, and I had no idea how progressive slots worked at the time as this was my first time looking at a progressive slot and I assumed I would just play $2 and I would get the Major. I ended up having to play about $300 before I got the $500 Major as the meter moved so incredibly slow."

Don't just guess. There's enough information on them to know within reason if it's good or not. That's why the must hits are very deceptive. Some look good and they are horrible. Others seem not that great but they are very good. I don't seems to ever see them at good numbers but I'm not usually looking. It's hard to find good ones in Vegas, and if I'm traveling im usually busy and concentrating on something else.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
BTLWI
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August 9th, 2016 at 7:48:52 PM permalink
We just hit a must go at $1956. Glad we got on at $1954 instead of waiting till $1995 like the guy above suggests.

Three weeks ago we had our first loser on a "big" chase. On at $9,854 off at $9,977. 15,375 spins was a bit more than we were expecting!
BTLWI
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August 9th, 2016 at 7:52:03 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

It's hard to find good ones in Vegas, and if I'm traveling im usually busy and concentrating on something else.


I was in Vegas early June for poker. At six big strip casinos I counted every machine I could find. Those six casinos combined only added up to 33% of the number of must hits my one local offers. Was disappointed for sure.
2armedbandit
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August 10th, 2016 at 1:44:38 PM permalink
Quote: BTLWI

Three weeks ago we had our first loser on a "big" chase. On at $9,854 off at $9,977. 15,375 spins was a bit more than we were expecting!



BTLWI you must be new to machines... You are yapping way to much online and most likely in the casinos. You need to keep your info to yourself and quietly do your thing. Keep yapping and your days of "On at 98xx" will be long gone.
Bet more to win more...
BTLWI
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August 10th, 2016 at 3:12:13 PM permalink
The info is already out there. Nothing was said about the meter rates. In another thread on this forum people were miles and miles off on what they thought was a profitable number. If AP's can't get it right, I'm certainly not worried about ploppies. And if people are capable of bringing $15K cash with them to the casino then good luck to them. Not only do you need that much cash bit you also may need 16-24 hours of availability to do that many spins.

We've seen a few times where it's 3 AM and people are suddenly out of cash with limited ability to get more. People bring $3000, get on way too early, drive it up to a good number, run out of cash and can't get more because it's Friday night and 2:30 AM (or maybe they don't have more).

But I get the gist of what you're saying.
100xOdds
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December 7th, 2016 at 12:22:01 PM permalink
update of jackpot:


now $20k
(the smaller one to the left was hit shortly after my original post.)
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
mamat
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December 7th, 2016 at 11:21:50 PM permalink
Quote: Dean

I would say a slot is worth playing when it is only $5 or less than it's "Must hit" by number.

Be wary of "fake must-hits".

e.g. Must hit by $1,200. Machine run up to 1,199.99 and stops...for weeks/months.

----
There also are suuuper-sloooow must-hits. One Non-LasVegas $200 must-hit at $199...might require $1,600 to drop (ouch!).

----
And must-hits which don't move on every bet.

---
I'm waiting for the "must-hit" which sometimes moves backwards (haven't seen it yet, but given the 2016 pz3, maybe....)
Mission146
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December 9th, 2016 at 12:11:06 PM permalink
Quote: mamat

Be wary of "fake must-hits".

e.g. Must hit by $1,200. Machine run up to 1,199.99 and stops...for weeks/months.



I've never seen that happen.

Quote:

There also are suuuper-sloooow must-hits. One Non-LasVegas $200 must-hit at $199...might require $1,600 to drop (ouch!).



That's just a function of the meter move, also, if you had a must-hit at $199.00 and it would take $1,600 coin-in to push it all the way up to $200, then that's a playable machine, I would suggest. There would have to be a ton of factors to make that not be a playable machine.

Quote:


And must-hits which don't move on every bet.



They shouldn't, necessarily. That's especially true if you're making a minimum bet, (which is playing with the least volatility and doesn't hurt the return, provided all other things are equal) the meter move is just whatever dollars/cents amount it is and often differs between the different jackpot levels. It's not unusual for a small (Minor) jackpot to move faster than the Major, sometimes.

Often jackpots with a big range have faster meters whereas jackpots with a lesser range have slower meters. If you have a jackpot with a short range and a fast meter, it's important to remember that it's very likely that the jackpot itself (at base) probably contributes a good bit to the base return of the game, along with the meter move.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
bobbartop
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mamat
December 9th, 2016 at 9:56:43 PM permalink
Quote: mamat


I'm waiting for the "must-hit" which sometimes moves backwards (haven't seen it yet, but given the 2016 pz3, maybe....)




Heh, that was funny.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
mamat
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December 9th, 2016 at 10:50:26 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

I've never seen that happen.

The fake-must-hit. I don't remember the exact name...but a giveaway is seeing three machines in a bank of "$1,200 must-hit" and two are at 1,199.99. There's a series which is fairly common around the US.

Quote: Mission146

That's just a function of the meter move, also, if you had a must-hit at $199.00 and it would take $1,600 coin-in to push it all the way up to $200, then that's a playable machine, I would suggest. There would have to be a ton of factors to make that not be a playable machine.

$200 must-hit at $199. $1,600 meter. 87%. Yes barely playable... in practice, I never see the machine above $198, which isn't playable.

Saw a $20 minor must-hit at $19.97 once. Guy ran $80 through machine & it didn't move a penny. I don't know the meter, but I left.

Quote: Mission146

That's especially true if you're making a minimum bet, (which is playing with the least volatility and doesn't hurt the return, provided all other things are equal) the meter move is just whatever dollars/cents amount it is and often differs between the different jackpot levels.

WMS G+. Only moves on wins.
Mission146
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December 10th, 2016 at 5:31:30 AM permalink
Quote: mamat

The fake-must-hit. I don't remember the exact name...but a giveaway is seeing three machines in a bank of "$1,200 must-hit" and two are at 1,199.99. There's a series which is fairly common around the US.



I'll look out for that, then. The thing actually has, 'Must-Hit,' verbiage on it?

Quote:

$200 must-hit at $199. $1,600 meter. 87%. Yes barely playable... in practice, I never see the machine above $198, which isn't playable.

Saw a $20 minor must-hit at $19.97 once. Guy ran $80 through machine & it didn't move a penny. I don't know the meter, but I left.



Apparently the meter on your second sentence is more than $80/penny. That's pretty insane. The longest meter I've ever seen on something that I thought would (normally) possibly be playable was $12.00/penny or $16.00/penny on the second-lowest of four jackpots...obviously, it didn't end up being playable.

Quote:

WMS G+. Only moves on wins.



That's right, I recall those now. Used to have a ten-bank of them at the casino I most frequently visit, but they're gone now and have been for perhaps over a year. The meter move on those is theoretical rather than necessarily actual, just like the long-term return of the machine (though it approaches actual) but usually a fixed amount of win moves the meter a penny.

For example, if the base game + bonus games (not including the jackpots at all) has a return of 80%, and the meter move is a penny for $4.00 won, then the long-term effective meter move is a penny for every $5.00 coin-in. It doesn't really change anything (in terms of expectation) just that you're not necessarily guaranteed to move the meter that fast.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
onenickelmiracle
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December 10th, 2016 at 5:59:58 AM permalink
At the Borgata, there was a machine it took $40 or $50 to move a penny. Think the range might be $48-50 and not the usual $25-50 people would expect. They "must hit" and might be "guaranteed" to hit, but no guarantee you won't be playing the worst paying machine in the house and no guarantee the casino "must not" play dirty. I dont believe casinos "set it and forget it" just because they don't have to, and can earn extra income by intervening. There wouldn't be much point on a no progressive machine, but on if they anticipate captive audiences in the next three days, without handcuffs barring intervention, you cannot be sure. We all know if we ran the casino, we'd take an extra five minutes a day protecting those jackpots.

I've seen machines $2400, guaranteed to hit three times by $2500 taken off the floor for good. Coincidence? In $50,000 coin-in, paying out $24XX up to 3 times, a week later it's gone, but they chose then. Probably cost them $900 once, the increase from the $1500 reset, and it probably wasn't moved to a machine where $900 is won with odds of 1/50,000. Regulators dgaf. Belie dat. Could have waited a week, someone would have hit it, but they didn't. They took action against best wishes and best interest of the public. Unethical boys.
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mamat
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December 12th, 2016 at 7:39:18 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

I've seen machines $2400, guaranteed to hit three times by $2500 taken off the floor for good.

"Player's Equity" money must be placed into another jackpot slot. Sometime when upgrading software, the machine won't hold the progressive money, so it has to move somewhere else before the software upgrade...which can be great if the money moves into an easily hit-able slot. But really bad if they move it into an almost impossible to hit progressive.

I played part of a machine which hit at around $2,418, $2,433, and $2,493.

Quote: Mission146

I'll look out for that, then. The thing actually has, 'Must-Hit,' verbiage on it?

Yes. The line I'm thinking of is at least 4-6 years old. No AP plays them. Regular players at the casino won't be tricked. But a traveling AP (or ploppy) looking for must-hits might be confused.

Quote: Mission146

The longest meter I've ever seen on something that I thought would (normally) possibly be playable was $12.00/penny or $16.00/penny on the second-lowest of four jackpots...obviously, it didn't end up being playable.

The "Engine Ablaze" and "Quick Strike Quad" meters are some of the worst. I think the $12.50 mini is usually 800-1200 ($8.00/penny) or worse. And the upper meters are 2000-2400 or higher...

Some people who don't check meters might occasionally get a terrible surprise. The popular 0.25/1.00 $5K-10K progressives usually have 667/250 meters (sometimes 667/222), but I've seen one with 2000/667 meters (e.g. $20.00/penny for the major). Got killed on one minor because it took me so long to realize the meter was 667 (and not 250).

Konami QuickStrike $500/$50 usually is 400/133, but I've seen it at 200/67, 200/80, ??/83, ??/200, 800/267. In one casino, 4 different sets of meters co-exist. Just like with VP, some casinos set some banks really hard to milk unsuspecting poppies.

QuickStrike $200/$20 is usually 400/200, but it was mis-set at one casino at 80/200 (Major set 5x too fast). At another casino, it was deliberately set at 1000-2000/500 on one side of a bank, with normal setting on the other side. After 1-2 years, they changed the 1000-2000/500 to the lower regular setting.

One casino has two Quickstrike $2000/$200s set at 2000/1600 (rather than the more common 400/200).

Quote: Mission146

That's right, I recall those now. Used to have a ten-bank of them at the casino I most frequently visit, but they're gone now and have been for perhaps over a year. The meter move on those is theoretical rather than necessarily actual, just like the long-term return of the machine (though it approaches actual) but usually a fixed amount of win moves the meter a penny.

First time I played a G+..was at 49.90. It took me $35 to drop. Didn't realize than betting $0.10-0.20 might have been better (since it moves based on wins, not coin-in).

G+ are still extremely common. Some casinos have 40-50+ machines. They have blue, orange, and black colored jackpot boxes.
Tricky issue is the $500 progressives start at both $250 or $350.
There's also a wide variety of meters on minor and major (sometimes the minor & major meter are the same, sometimes not).

When machines have both (1) different hold percentages (2) different meter settings ... life gets a little more fun for the mathematicians.

-----
There is a machine (Turbo Boost, I think) .... where the 500/50 progressives randomly jump up by large amounts. They do move up slowly with most coin-in.

-----
As I commented earlier, I'm waiting for the new machine, where the progressives occasionally move downward (The extra "Player's Equity" would have to be stored in a hidden meter, to be added later in a Turbo Boost-like jump or some other bonus). See the 2016 pz3 for how something like this might work in practice.
Last edited by: mamat on Dec 12, 2016
BTLWI
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December 13th, 2016 at 7:44:26 PM permalink
I got fooled once. A new game about 2 years ago had a few meters and had "Maximum Amount - $XX" top center of each box. Well the Maximum Amount $99.99 meter was at $99.51. Halfway there I realized what it most likely meant but the machines were all new and none of them were at the cap. $100 lost and I confirmed that it was just a meter cap.
onenickelmiracle
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December 13th, 2016 at 8:50:12 PM permalink
Meters creeping so slowly not only affects how fast a must hit moves, but cuts the frequency they're awarded. It is as much a fact now than ever, only the value determines when it is hit. If a machine has a meter of $4/$.01 and changes to $20/.01, it will be won only once for every five times in the past, over time. For example if a machines major has hit 12times/year, 60/5 years, it will change to 12 times over 5 years. This assumes there will be just as much play, which there won't be, so it will be even worse. What makes it worse, since these machines hit so much less often, the bait will catch more fish, being visible and assumed good by so many for so long. Sick, sick, sick.

There is a direct effect on meter movement and how often a must hit will hit. ThisThis video admits it, how a predetermined jackpot value is the sole method determining a must-hit being "randomly" awarded.

Further evidence, the casino reset all must-hits in a bank when changing the meters, all had enough play to guarantee $500 with old meter rates, but were unhit after $100,000 coin-in, all $290.
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monet0412
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December 13th, 2016 at 9:25:12 PM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

Saw this:


the machine on the right seems better than the one on the left.

then I thought "When is a slot machine (in general) worth playing?
(assume it's set to the higher of:
-minimum payout allowed by state law
-minimal payout possible by the manufacturer)



I didn't read most of the comments so if this is redundant I apologize. I skimmed them and pretty much noticed everyone was talking about must hits but these are not those. Anyhoo... this is how I play reels like progressives. The problem is finding out the return. Without going into great detail I think you need to know what the return is for the machine. Actually all I need to know is how much will I expect to lose per hour? How many spins does it take on average to make the jackpot I am trying to hit? Pretty simple from that point. Can I outrun my loss per hour in the long run over time. Most jackpots that I play are usually 3 reel machines with a single line but I play others as well. Some only need to be double jackpot and others like Black Gold need to be 5x from the reset point and you better be able to lock down the machine for weeks on end... No Joke... weeks!! Something like this probably isn't high enough and I would guess that you need to do some 888 for a long period of time. You might get some heat if some wise slot guy sees you doing the old 888 with two others or a little 12 and 12 with one partner. Of course usually you won't get the heat with slots compared to locking down VP. Since I can't really break down the numbers and it is very difficult for me to get access to any PAR Sheets cause you got to be somebody to get that info I usually know about the machines I play from word of mouth or just sheer volume of the millions of spins that I have already spun. I don't need that many spins... usually 100k coin in is enough for me to know what is going on but a million coin in and I know for sure what the hold is!
Mission146
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December 17th, 2016 at 10:13:01 AM permalink
Quote: mamat

"Player's Equity" money must be placed into another jackpot slot. Sometime when upgrading software, the machine won't hold the progressive money, so it has to move somewhere else before the software upgrade...which can be great if the money moves into an easily hit-able slot. But really bad if they move it into an almost impossible to hit progressive.



It's either Vegas or A.C. that has a law on that specifically stating that player equity money has to move to a Progressive that is as likely or more to hit, perhaps both jurisdictions.

Quote:

Yes. The line I'm thinking of is at least 4-6 years old. No AP plays them. Regular players at the casino won't be tricked. But a traveling AP (or ploppy) looking for must-hits might be confused.

The "Engine Ablaze" and "Quick Strike Quad" meters are some of the worst. I think the $12.50 mini is usually 800-1200 ($8.00/penny) or worse. And the upper meters are 2000-2400 or higher...

Some people who don't check meters might occasionally get a terrible surprise. The popular 0.25/1.00 $5K-10K progressives usually have 667/250 meters (sometimes 667/222), but I've seen one with 2000/667 meters (e.g. $20.00/penny for the major). Got killed on one minor because it took me so long to realize the meter was 667 (and not 250).



The Quick Strike Quads are the ones with which I am familiar. It's really not that big of a deal, in my opinion. I would suggest that, if one is really paying attention, one might lose one to two dollars in theoretical before making the determination that the meter move is too slow to play.

Quote:

QuickStrike $200/$20 is usually 400/200, but it was mis-set at one casino at 80/200 (Major set 5x too fast). At another casino, it was deliberately set at 1000-2000/500 on one side of a bank, with normal setting on the other side. After 1-2 years, they changed the 1000-2000/500 to the lower regular setting.



I've seen some with super fast minors, $0.90/$0.01 meter move, but those have since been fixed. Maybe, 'Fixed,' isn't even the right word, but changed, anyway.

Quote:

First time I played a G+..was at 49.90. It took me $35 to drop. Didn't realize than betting $0.10-0.20 might have been better (since it moves based on wins, not coin-in).



I tend to bet as small as I can stand to do anyway to reduce variance, so it wouldn't make a huge difference to me whether or not it is win based as long as the Line Pays are the same and there is no verbiage on the Rule screen stating that Free Games become more likely with a greater bet, or anything like that.

Quote:

G+ are still extremely common. Some casinos have 40-50+ machines. They have blue, orange, and black colored jackpot boxes.
Tricky issue is the $500 progressives start at both $250 or $350.
There's also a wide variety of meters on minor and major (sometimes the minor & major meter are the same, sometimes not).



Absolutely, they just seem to have gotten rid of most of the G+ must-hits in this area. I still see many of the same games, but most of them don't have a progressive. I think there are still a few at one casino close to me, but they really don't get much play at all.

Quote:

When machines have both (1) different hold percentages (2) different meter settings ... life gets a little more fun for the mathematicians.



The hold percentages don't really concern me because I tend to make really conservative assumptions about the base return percentage, anyway, so the only thing knowing the specific hold percentages would do for me is get me on a few more borderline plays than I would normally do...with very low $$$/hour value.

Quote:

-----
There is a machine (Turbo Boost, I think) .... where the 500/50 progressives randomly jump up by large amounts. They do move up slowly with most coin-in.



That would be more interesting to figure out how to account for, any guidance on the Rule screen? If not, probably take a lot of straight up watching others play.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
AxelWolf
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December 17th, 2016 at 8:50:30 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

It's either Vegas or A.C. that has a law on that specifically stating that player equity money has to move to a Progressive that is as likely or more to hit, perhaps both jurisdictions.



The Quick Strike Quads are the ones with which I am familiar. It's really not that big of a deal, in my opinion. I would suggest that, if one is really paying attention, one might lose one to two dollars in theoretical before making the determination that the meter move is too slow to play.



I've seen some with super fast minors, $0.90/$0.01 meter move, but those have since been fixed. Maybe, 'Fixed,' isn't even the right word, but changed, anyway.



I tend to bet as small as I can stand to do anyway to reduce variance, so it wouldn't make a huge difference to me whether or not it is win based as long as the Line Pays are the same and there is no verbiage on the Rule screen stating that Free Games become more likely with a greater bet, or anything like that.



Absolutely, they just seem to have gotten rid of most of the G+ must-hits in this area. I still see many of the same games, but most of them don't have a progressive. I think there are still a few at one casino close to me, but they really don't get much play at all.



The hold percentages don't really concern me because I tend to make really conservative assumptions about the base return percentage, anyway, so the only thing knowing the specific hold percentages would do for me is get me on a few more borderline plays than I would normally do...with very low $$$/hour value.



That would be more interesting to figure out how to account for, any guidance on the Rule screen? If not, probably take a lot of straight up watching others play.

What do you mean as likely or MORE to hit? Can you show me where it says that?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
RS
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December 17th, 2016 at 9:01:17 PM permalink
RE: meter only moves on wins --

Yes, if it moves a penny per $4 won with an 80% base return then it theoretically increases at a rate of $0.01/$5.00, or 0.2%. I've never played one of these puppies, but a big down side and potentially big upside is since the meter moves with your wins, it can either climb really fast if you're winning or really slowly if you're losing. So if your actual return is 120%, then every $100 coin in is pushing it up $0.24. But if your actual return is 40%, then $100 coin in is pushing it up only $0.08. So if you're running good on the machine, you'll be playing less and hit the jackpot quicker....so you win lots on the machine straight up plus the jackpot. If you're running bad, then you're losing on the machine straight up AND are forced to play even longer due to the slower meter.

Feast or famine, as the ancient Hawaiians used to say.
mamat
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December 17th, 2016 at 11:06:54 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

The hold percentages don't really concern me because I tend to make really conservative assumptions about the base return percentage, anyway, so the only thing knowing the specific hold percentages would do for me is get me on a few more borderline plays than I would normally do...with very low $$$/hour value.

For smaller penny plays, the difference between Harrahs 85% 1c and most Indian casinos 88-89% 1c is significant.
...but the major difference is at a casino where most 1c are 93%.

If you play 5K progressives (85-96%) and 10K progressives (89-97%), the hold percentages become very important.
I don't play 25K/50K/100K progressives, but every 1% is a lot of money.
Mission146
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December 18th, 2016 at 8:46:30 AM permalink
Quote: mamat

For smaller penny plays, the difference between Harrahs 85% 1c and most Indian casinos 88-89% 1c is significant.
...but the major difference is at a casino where most 1c are 93%.

If you play 5K progressives (85-96%) and 10K progressives (89-97%), the hold percentages become very important.
I don't play 25K/50K/100K progressives, but every 1% is a lot of money.



My point is that if I am going to jump in at all, my assumptions are such that I am almost definitely at an advantage. Essentially, I basically always assume I'm getting 80% on the base game.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
FleaStiff
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December 18th, 2016 at 9:01:04 AM permalink
Quote: Casinodepositor

Actually if the machine display bigger jackpot than the other machine is because more player used that machine compare to others.

I think that is one reason casinos engage in a slot shuffle as machines are moved around the floor to accommodate the whims of players and the ebb and flow of the various crowds. If one machine has a high jackpot indicating high use, the casino is likely to move an identical or similar machine next to it so as make use of the high traffic spot. If physically separated the two machines still function independently despite someone staring at them and wondering why they show different values.
Mission146
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December 18th, 2016 at 9:38:07 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

What do you mean as likely or MORE to hit? Can you show me where it says that?



I might have misunderstood, but I was basing it on 5.110 on Page 13 here:

http://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2945

Quote:

5. A licensee shall not reduce the amount of a progressive payoff schedule or otherwise
eliminate a progressive payoff schedule unless:
(a) A player wins the progressive payoff schedule;
(b) The licensee adjusts the progressive payoff schedule to correct a malfunction or to prevent
the display of an amount greater than a limit imposed pursuant to subsection 4, and the licensee
documents the adjustment and the reasons for it;
(c) The licensee distributes the entire incremental amount to another single progressive payoff
schedule on similar game(s) or machine(s) at the licenseeís establishment and:

(1) The licensee documents the distribution;
(2) Any game or slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the licensee distributes the
incremental amount does not require that more money be played on a single play to win the
payoff schedule than the game or slot machine from which the incremental amount is distributed
unless the incremental amount distributed is increased in proportion to the increase in the amount
of the wager required to win the payoff schedule;



Between the two parts that I put in bold, that's what I gather. It says it has to be a similar game or machine and that not more money (per play) can be required to be played to hit the Progressive. Granted, there may be some room for interpretation there, but I would suggest by, 'Similar games or machines,' you couldn't go from having the Progressive amount be 1 in 10,000 to hit to 1 in 1,000,000 or something like that.

The next line also seems to indicate to me that it has to be the same payoff schedule, if from a slot:

Quote:

(3) If from a slot machine, any slot machine offering the payoff schedule to which the
incremental amount is distributed complies with the minimum theoretical payout requirement of
Regulation 14.040(1); and



I could be reading it wrong, though, it might just be saying that it can go to literally any other slot machine with a return of 75+%, but that's not how I take it. It says, 'The payoff schedule,' which, to me, means the same payoff schedule as the machine it is being moved from.

Also, keep in mind, with special permission (in writing) from the Chairman, the resolution of Progressive monies can be handled in other ways.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
Nathan
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December 23rd, 2016 at 4:46:17 AM permalink
You never do know when you will get a progressive hit. I have had hit the progressive on Da Ja Da Li when the firecracker was far from being completely lit(It literally had just one or two lines lit up) and I have hit the progressive on Anthony and Cleopatra when it was like $10 away. I was pleasantly shocked both times.
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
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