tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6261
December 11th, 2013 at 1:53:18 AM permalink
To be more specific, any "server-based" "electronic gaming machine" payback can be changed if the machine is idle for longer than 4 minutes in Nevada. The same law exists in my home state of Missouri since they like to copy Nevada...lol Older slots/video poker machines are NOT server-based though. And for video poker, changes are immediately evident, for slots, it's a guessing game.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 146
  • Posts: 18220
December 11th, 2013 at 1:56:04 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

To be more specific, any "server-based" "electronic gaming machine" payback can be changed if the machine is idle for longer than 4 minutes in Nevada. The same law exists in my home state of Missouri since they like to copy Nevada...lol Older slots/video poker machines are NOT server based though. And for video poker, changes are immediately evident, for slots, it's a guessing game.

I heard the 4 min rule, but I didn't want to repeat it because I didn't look it up for myself. I covered the other stuff, you just said it better.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tournamentking
tournamentking
Joined: Nov 22, 2013
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 271
December 11th, 2013 at 6:35:55 AM permalink
And that's what I meant by using the term loosely. "Anytime" being changing the slot machine only within the proper regulatory parameters. I agree on the vp machines, but if and when a slot machine payback is changed actually would affect my approach. Not by much, but it could throw off my play cycle without me knowing it. Not likely on running progressives though.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 146
  • Posts: 18220
December 12th, 2013 at 2:54:29 AM permalink
Quote: tournamentking

And that's what I meant by using the term loosely. "Anytime" being changing the slot machine only within the proper regulatory parameters. I agree on the vp machines, but if and when a slot machine payback is changed actually would affect my approach. Not by much, but it could throw off my play cycle without me knowing it. Not likely on running progressives though.

Now that would be an interesting question, can a casino legally change a machine percentage lower on a progressive once it gets real high? This should be big NO NO. I know casinos have done this in the past on VP machines, a few times, gaming control was called out. It was a mix different decisions made by gaming control.

If a casino changes a slot on you by 5% Your going to tell me you would still have an advantage? Highly doubtful. Lets assume you find a slot machine that's at 10k. You think the cost is somewhere around 8k to hit. You now have a 2K profit over the cycle. If they change the pay back by 5% the machine could now easily cost you 20k to hit, now you would lose thousands of dollars per cycle instead of having a profit.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
tournamentking
tournamentking
Joined: Nov 22, 2013
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 271
December 12th, 2013 at 3:31:16 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Now that would be an interesting question, can a casino legally change a machine percentage lower on a progressive once it gets real high? This should be big NO NO. I know casinos have done this in the past on VP machines, a few times, gaming control was called out. It was a mix different decisions made by gaming control.

If a casino changes a slot on you by 5% Your going to tell me you would still have an advantage? Highly doubtful. Lets assume you find a slot machine that's at 10k. You think the cost is somewhere around 8k to hit. You now have a 2K profit over the cycle. If they change the pay back by 5% the machine could now easily cost you 20k to hit, now you would lose thousands of dollars per cycle instead of having a profit.



I believe the rule on progressive slots is the same as with vp progressives: you can't mess with them while they're progressing. Have casinos done it? Not likely, because the reason wouldn't be as compelling as it would be for the vp progressives. In vp, there's little control over how often and how high the jackpots hit, and if it looks like it might turn into a loser for the casino then the mgr. might be forced into doing something he shouldn't. Just my opinion though.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 146
  • Posts: 18220
December 12th, 2013 at 6:06:13 AM permalink
Quote: tournamentking

I believe the rule on progressive slots is the same as with vp progressives: you can't mess with them while they're progressing. Have casinos done it? Not likely, because the reason wouldn't be as compelling as it would be for the vp progressives. In vp, there's little control over how often and how high the jackpots hit, and if it looks like it might turn into a loser for the casino then the mgr. might be forced into doing something he shouldn't. Just my opinion though.

Casinos have done this in the past as I have already explained. Some have gotten away with it, some have not. A downtown casino pulls stunts like this however its not as blatant. Prior to a promotion they will take VP progressive money and put the money on a hard to hit slot, keno progressive or something. They then take the VP off the floor and store it. After the promotions over they put the VP back.

Quote: tournamentking


In vp, there's little control over how often and how high the jackpots hit

This leads me to believe, you believe they are able to control when slots hit. Unless it is a Must hit by or mystery slot, this should not be the case. It works no different then a VP machine each time you spin you have the same exact chance to hit the top Jackpot as the last time. If it's cycle is 1 in 20,000 it will always be 1 in 20,000. If it was any different, AP's would just camp out and count other peoples spins all day. Once the machine got in 19k spins they would sit and play it.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
  • Threads: 146
  • Posts: 18220
December 12th, 2013 at 6:06:56 AM permalink
Quote: tournamentking

I believe the rule on progressive slots is the same as with vp progressives: you can't mess with them while they're progressing. Have casinos done it? Not likely, because the reason wouldn't be as compelling as it would be for the vp progressives. In vp, there's little control over how often and how high the jackpots hit, and if it looks like it might turn into a loser for the casino then the mgr. might be forced into doing something he shouldn't. Just my opinion though.

Casinos have done this in the past as I have already explained. Some have gotten away with it, some have not. A downtown casino pulls stunts like this however its not as blatant. Prior to a promotion they will take VP progressive money and put the money on a hard to hit slot, keno progressive or something. They then take the VP off the floor and store it. After the promotions over they put the VP back.

tournamentking
In vp, there's little control over how often and how high the jackpots hit
Axel
This leads me to believe, you believe they are able to control when slots hit. Unless it is a Must hit by or mystery slot, this should not be the case. It works no different then a VP machine each time you spin you have the same exact chance to hit the top Jackpot as the last time. If it's cycle is 1 in 20,000 it will always be 1 in 20,000. If it was any different, AP's would just camp out and count other peoples spins all day. Once the machine got in 19k spins they would sit and play it.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
DRich
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
  • Threads: 72
  • Posts: 6288
December 12th, 2013 at 9:44:17 AM permalink
I am not aware of a regulation in Nevada that prevents a casino from changing the hold percentage on a progressive machine as long as you don't take away any of the player contribution to the progressive. If there is a reg I am not familiar with, I may have to self report myself. Last month I changed some percentages on some progressives.
Living longer does not always infer +EV
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
Joined: Jul 13, 2013
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 2299
December 16th, 2013 at 12:34:05 PM permalink
The one type of progressive slot I saw more pros playing than any other was a Bally three-reeler called Blazing 7's. They came in quarter, dollar and $5 denominations. They were mostly stand alone progressives. You had to bet three coins to qualify for the progressive. One bit of information I was able to get off of a few pros was the odds of the top line hit, 16 X 16 X 16 = 4096.

On the dollar denom the progressive started at $1000. Multiply the cycle by three coins and the total wager would be $12,288 per cycle.
1000/12288 = 8.14%. So the reset amount in the progressive represented a big chunk of payback.

Meter movements on these machines varied from .5% to 1% to 1.5% to 2%. I seen pros playing some amazingly low numbers. Some would even play them as low as $1200. But this was in the days when a lot of casinos had same day major cashback with multi-point days.

Most players didn't like anything under $1500. So I had to figure that the cost to hit the progressive was at or below $1500. If the cost is $1500--1500/12288 = a 12.2% drop between top line hits. The "cost" is the average amount of money you get dropped for between top line hits.

This is where meter speed comes in.

With a .5% meter the top line hit would have to miss about 8 cycles, 33333 spins to put the meter on $1500.
With a 1% meter the top line hit would have to miss about 4 cycles, 16384 spins to put the meter on $1500
With a 2% meter the top line hit would have to miss about 2 cycles, 8192 games to put the meter on $1500.

The bulk of ones plays will come off the machines with 2% meters. This is what the meter speed is worth @ 900 spins per hour:

.5% meter = $13.50
1% meter = $27.00
2% meter = $54.00

The three key pieces of evidence one is looking for on slot progressives are:

1. The frequency of the top line hit
2. The drop between top line hits
3. The meter speed.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
onenickelmiracle
onenickelmiracle
Joined: Jan 26, 2012
  • Threads: 209
  • Posts: 7999
December 16th, 2013 at 2:59:53 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Now that would be an interesting question, can a casino legally change a machine percentage lower on a progressive once it gets real high? This should be big NO NO. I know casinos have done this in the past on VP machines, a few times, gaming control was called out. It was a mix different decisions made by gaming control.

If a casino changes a slot on you by 5% Your going to tell me you would still have an advantage? Highly doubtful. Lets assume you find a slot machine that's at 10k. You think the cost is somewhere around 8k to hit. You now have a 2K profit over the cycle. If they change the pay back by 5% the machine could now easily cost you 20k to hit, now you would lose thousands of dollars per cycle instead of having a profit.

Exactly my concerns regarding progressives and SBG. Especially since often it seems almost every slot in casino is some kind of progressive and more and more I am beginning to be confident the odds of winning progressives is directly tied to the set payback.

Edit: Just wanted to add, just because a machine must be idle, this doesn't stop the casino from making it idle and kicking the player out spitting out their money.
In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is the care taker. Hold my beer.

  • Jump to: