GenoDRPh
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October 3rd, 2022 at 9:24:57 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: AxelWolf



Obviously, it's not what the title suggests, but this entire movement is a little odd.
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She's fiddling with her ring, then shifts around in her chair looking for her water bottle. When her hand comes back up, it's obvious the ring has been turned around on her finger, i.e., the big gem part is now facing inwards. You can even still obviously see the ring band in the video, so I'm not exactly sure what the video poster is talking about.
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People are trying in desperation to find any reason why Garrett lost. Other than the fact she called from a disadvantage but won the hand, even after running it twice.

Gene
unJon
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October 3rd, 2022 at 9:26:54 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

I'm not a poker player. So help me understand how someone can win the hand-and the pot-yet not outplay their head's up opponent? He should f off.

Gene
link to original post



Poker is a game of skill and luck. Sometimes you only need one or the other to win. This hand she played unskillfully and got very lucky.
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She bluffed and he crumbled. Classic poker.

I also get a chuckle out of those people who think Epicenter ran a better Kentucky Derby, yet Rich Strike won the race.

Gene
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She didnít bluff. She called. He didnít crumble, he ran out bad despite being ahead 53%/47%.

I can explain it to you but I canít understand it for you.
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At the end of a prize-fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around and that's who won. Do you understand that well enough?

Gene
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Yes I do. At the end of the craps session when I win and am dancing around, I donít delude myself into thinking I out played the casino.

When I get it all in on poker with set over set, and Iím drawing to two outs and hit, I recognize I didnít outplay my open my opponent, but instead was lucky to hit one of the two out of 45 cards I needed to win.

Do you understand either or both of those well enough?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
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October 3rd, 2022 at 12:24:35 PM permalink
Quote: Mission146

Quote: unJon



I can explain it to you but I canít understand it for you.
link to original post



(Quote clipped, relevance)

I'm stealing this line, but I will give you full credit when I do.
link to original post

You'll have to read the last few pages of EvenBob's Roulette thread to understand this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GenoDRPh
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October 3rd, 2022 at 1:18:35 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

I'm not a poker player. So help me understand how someone can win the hand-and the pot-yet not outplay their head's up opponent? He should f off.

Gene
link to original post



Poker is a game of skill and luck. Sometimes you only need one or the other to win. This hand she played unskillfully and got very lucky.
link to original post



She bluffed and he crumbled. Classic poker.

I also get a chuckle out of those people who think Epicenter ran a better Kentucky Derby, yet Rich Strike won the race.

Gene
link to original post



She didnít bluff. She called. He didnít crumble, he ran out bad despite being ahead 53%/47%.

I can explain it to you but I canít understand it for you.
link to original post



At the end of a prize-fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around and that's who won. Do you understand that well enough?

Gene
link to original post



Yes I do. At the end of the craps session when I win and am dancing around, I donít delude myself into thinking I out played the casino.

When I get it all in on poker with set over set, and Iím drawing to two outs and hit, I recognize I didnít outplay my open my opponent, but instead was lucky to hit one of the two out of 45 cards I needed to win.

Do you understand either or both of those well enough?
link to original post



"You miss 100 % of the shots you don't take."-Wayne Gretzky. Do you understand that?

"I'm here to gamble." -Anonymous. Do you understand that?

"ďI'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.Ē -Thomas Jefferson. Do you understand that?

By bluffing early in the hand, and then calling in the late stages, she put pressure on Garrett-The-Sore-Loser and she won. That's what matters. Assuming, of course,she won fair and square. And there is no evidence she didn't.

Gene


"
unJon
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October 3rd, 2022 at 1:51:15 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: unJon

Quote: GenoDRPh

I'm not a poker player. So help me understand how someone can win the hand-and the pot-yet not outplay their head's up opponent? He should f off.

Gene
link to original post



Poker is a game of skill and luck. Sometimes you only need one or the other to win. This hand she played unskillfully and got very lucky.
link to original post



She bluffed and he crumbled. Classic poker.

I also get a chuckle out of those people who think Epicenter ran a better Kentucky Derby, yet Rich Strike won the race.

Gene
link to original post



She didnít bluff. She called. He didnít crumble, he ran out bad despite being ahead 53%/47%.

I can explain it to you but I canít understand it for you.
link to original post



At the end of a prize-fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around and that's who won. Do you understand that well enough?

Gene
link to original post



Yes I do. At the end of the craps session when I win and am dancing around, I donít delude myself into thinking I out played the casino.

When I get it all in on poker with set over set, and Iím drawing to two outs and hit, I recognize I didnít outplay my open my opponent, but instead was lucky to hit one of the two out of 45 cards I needed to win.

Do you understand either or both of those well enough?
link to original post



"You miss 100 % of the shots you don't take."-Wayne Gretzky. Do you understand that?

"I'm here to gamble." -Anonymous. Do you understand that?

"ďI'm a greater believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it.Ē -Thomas Jefferson. Do you understand that?

By bluffing early in the hand, and then calling in the late stages, she put pressure on Garrett-The-Sore-Loser and she won. That's what matters. Assuming, of course,she won fair and square. And there is no evidence she didn't.

Gene


"
link to original post

Carry on my wayward son.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
unJon
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October 3rd, 2022 at 1:54:53 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: Mission146

Quote: unJon



I can explain it to you but I canít understand it for you.
link to original post



(Quote clipped, relevance)

I'm stealing this line, but I will give you full credit when I do.
link to original post

You'll have to read the last few pages of EvenBob's Roulette thread to understand this.
link to original post



They stole it from me first! (Page 270 of first MDawg adventure thread.)

The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
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October 3rd, 2022 at 1:56:55 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: Mission146

Quote: GenoDRPh

I'm not a poker player. So help me understand how someone can win the hand-and the pot-yet not outplay their head's up opponent? He should f off.

Gene
link to original post



Let's suppose we are at the Turn with this board:

Jc Qc 8h 4d

In my hand I have:

8d 8c

In your hand you have:

10c 7c (For some reason; I gave you a ridiculous hand to mirror the ridiculousness of ever being in any hand with J4 off)

You take a stab at the pot with a 50% pot bet, I shove, you call---you catch a club on the river.

You may have won the pot in this hypothetical, but you didn't outplay me. Two over cards to your ten and you dead to anything except a club AND the fact that I could even have better clubs and you call? That's just a river suck out. You win that hand less than 25% of the time.
link to original post



Yeah, Garrett outplayed Robbi. Just like Atlanta outplayed the Patriots in SB LI, Miami outplayed BC in the Miracle in Miami game, the Yankees outplayed the Pirates in the 1960 World Series and Epicenter ran a better race than Rich Strike in the 2022 Kentucky Derby. At the end of a prize-fight, you look at the guy who's dancing around and that's who won. If she was cheating, she should've returned the money. If not, she should've told him to f off.

Gene
link to original post

He obviously didn't outplay her, no one outplayed anyone on this hand. He was actually the one dancing around with the money( I do believe that could easily change). Not even she thought she outplayed him, I'm confident she was embarrassed about her play.

I heard no evidence of him threatening her. People are acting as if he snuck up on her in some dark abandoned hallway and started threatening her. ◄◄◄That didn't happen, not even close.

From my understanding, she asked, "how can I make it right". He said, "give me the money back". As I said before, she doesn't seem to be someone who is easily intimidated.

So why did she give the money back? I say fear. It's not fear of anything physical. It was fear of looking bad, she feared that she would no longer be accepted in the "boys club" and left with the stigma of being a cheater, fear of losing out on future opportunities. I'm sure she had a bunch of things running around in her head and she was simply attempting some damage control.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GenoDRPh
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October 3rd, 2022 at 2:47:24 PM permalink
She offered to give the money back after she claims she was pulled aside off-camera by Mr. Sore Loser and a producer where Mr. Sore Loser threatened her. Adelstein does admit there was a confrontation in the hallway with the producer present and says he never asked for a refund. So, yes, it did happen, Note that the casino denies any evidence of wrongdoing, but not the confrontation or the threatening.

And this, mis amigos, is why I don't play poker. I'll leave that to the people who think they outplayed their opponents, yet still lost.

Gene
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October 3rd, 2022 at 3:05:09 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

She offered to give the money back after she claims she was pulled aside off-camera by Mr. Sore Loser and a producer where Mr. Sore Loser threatened her. Adelstein does admit there was a confrontation in the hallway with the producer present and says he never asked for a refund. So, yes, it did happen, Note that the casino denies any evidence of wrongdoing, but not the confrontation or the threatening.

And this, mis amigos, is why I don't play poker. I'll leave that to the people who think they outplayed their opponents, yet still lost.

Gene
link to original post



All I can say is that this seems like a good job to have a security guard close by at all times to make sure no oneís getting threatened out of their winnings near the roomÖ now out of the casino is a different story but this was what seemed to be a heat of the moment type of scenario for baby Garrett and that there is not really anything that can be done if the producers themselves arenít claiming cheating and investigating it as of this point
Gandler
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October 3rd, 2022 at 3:38:15 PM permalink
I don't think she cheated, and the fact that she was pressured to give the money back is absurd.

If she was cheating she would not have given the money back (which sounds inverse, but cheaters tend to stick to their guns and not admit being wrong). This alone is a scale that she was in the right (well as far as cheating goes, not saying as far as poker plays goes). (And, if she did cheat and return the money, that would make her a cheat and a fool). I think this fact alone is a pretty good indicator that she did not cheat and felt bad about how it played out without having to get into the actual play.

She made a weird (bad) play, it blew up on social media, and she felt bad and/or pressured (probably both) to return the money. This is one of those videos that could have easily blown up for being "craziest hero call of all time" or "is she cheating", and for whatever reason it blew up as cheating
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October 3rd, 2022 at 4:42:25 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

(which sounds inverse, but cheaters tend to stick to their guns and not admit being wrong).
link to original post



A criminal never admits their wrongdoing they double down. Itís how they live and if they knew another way of life (with a conscience aka brains) they wouldnít give themselves up because they know they will lose years of their life in jail (or getting memed so much you quit the internet or life)

This quote is the only logic anyone should be following

I read this and it seemed weird so I thought Iíd say I agree with you
100xOdds
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October 3rd, 2022 at 5:58:04 PM permalink
Old nickname for J4o is Flat Tire.
ie: Whatís a Jack for (4)?

so what should the new name be?
the Robbi?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
AxelWolf
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October 3rd, 2022 at 7:38:19 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

She offered to give the money back after she claims she was pulled aside off-camera by Mr. Sore Loser and a producer where Mr. Sore Loser threatened her. Adelstein does admit there was a confrontation in the hallway with the producer present and says he never asked for a refund. So, yes, it did happen, Note that the casino denies any evidence of wrongdoing, but not the confrontation or the threatening.

And this, mis amigos, is why I don't play poker. I'll leave that to the people who think they outplayed their opponents, yet still lost.

Gene
link to original post

If you ever do decide to play poker, be sure to master the Bluff Call.

Bluff Call: The art of bluffing someone by calling their all-in bet.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
100xOdds
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October 3rd, 2022 at 8:01:14 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

If you ever do decide to play poker, be sure to master the Bluff Call.

Bluff Call: The art of bluffing someone by calling their all-in bet.
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Genius!
i would to subscribe to your newsletter
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
railer
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October 3rd, 2022 at 11:32:00 PM permalink
And, this is why poker is the greatest game ever.

On one level this is the worst call ever.... on another it's the greatest. What was Robbi really thinking when she called? Who knows? Maybe she's a total fish and got lucky... maybe she totally soul read him. Her intention defines whether it's a genius call or idiotic, but even THAT doesn't matter... she won.

Another cool thing about poker is that sometimes terrible plays work.

I don't have an opinion on whether there was cheating... but, her explanations are convoluted and very defensive... which makes her look guilty. Giving the money back is ridiculous and incriminating. Her talk after the hand was ridiculous and incriminating.

All she had to say was, "I put you on 87." That's it... next hand.
AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 12:42:22 AM permalink
Quote: railer

And, this is why poker is the greatest game ever.

On one level this is the worst call ever.... on another it's the greatest. What was Robbi really thinking when she called? Who knows? Maybe she's a total fish and got lucky... maybe she totally soul read him. Her intention defines whether it's a genius call or idiotic, but even THAT doesn't matter... she won.

Another cool thing about poker is that sometimes terrible plays work.

I don't have an opinion on whether there was cheating... but, her explanations are convoluted and very defensive... which makes her look guilty. Giving the money back is ridiculous and incriminating. Her talk after the hand was ridiculous and incriminating.

All she had to say was, "I put you on 87." That's it... next hand.
link to original post

Well said.

If bad players couldn't get lucky and win as often as they do, there wouldn't be any pros.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 2:55:04 AM permalink
To add more fuel to the fire. This might add at least a little bit of suspicion.

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
100xOdds
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October 4th, 2022 at 4:57:05 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: railer

And, this is why poker is the greatest game ever.

On one level this is the worst call ever.... on another it's the greatest. What was Robbi really thinking when she called? Who knows? Maybe she's a total fish and got lucky... maybe she totally soul read him. Her intention defines whether it's a genius call or idiotic, but even THAT doesn't matter... she won.

Another cool thing about poker is that sometimes terrible plays work.

I don't have an opinion on whether there was cheating... but, her explanations are convoluted and very defensive... which makes her look guilty. Giving the money back is ridiculous and incriminating. Her talk after the hand was ridiculous and incriminating.

All she had to say was, "I put you on 87." That's it... next hand.
link to original post

Well said.

If bad players couldn't get lucky and win as often as they do, there wouldn't be any pros.
link to original post

when i first started playing no limit holdem, villain kept on betting and i kept on calling because i was chasing a gut shot.
on the river, he bet over $100 which was most of what i had left.
i paired up (for 3rd pair). i called because my hand improved.

he had a busted flush draw and yelled at me for a stupid call.
i said what? lets talk about after i finish stacking your chips. (rubbing it in)
he rage quit the table
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
GenoDRPh
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October 4th, 2022 at 5:19:08 AM permalink
Oh please. And the mRNA vaccine contain the mark of the beast and will rewrite your DNA code. She won because she took a shot and came out ahead, not because of cheating.

Gene
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October 4th, 2022 at 5:20:11 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: railer

And, this is why poker is the greatest game ever.

On one level this is the worst call ever.... on another it's the greatest. What was Robbi really thinking when she called? Who knows? Maybe she's a total fish and got lucky... maybe she totally soul read him. Her intention defines whether it's a genius call or idiotic, but even THAT doesn't matter... she won.

Another cool thing about poker is that sometimes terrible plays work.

I don't have an opinion on whether there was cheating... but, her explanations are convoluted and very defensive... which makes her look guilty. Giving the money back is ridiculous and incriminating. Her talk after the hand was ridiculous and incriminating.

All she had to say was, "I put you on 87." That's it... next hand.
link to original post

Well said.

If bad players couldn't get lucky and win as often as they do, there wouldn't be any pros.
link to original post



Funny how others said the same thing as well....

Gene
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October 4th, 2022 at 6:16:10 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

Oh please. And the mRNA vaccine contain the mark of the beast and will rewrite your DNA code. She won because she took a shot and came out ahead, not because of cheating.

Gene
link to original post

I think that's probably more likely the case than cheating, however, I'm not going to rule out the possibility of cheating.

I'm all but certain, cheating or not, there will never be any hard evidence of cheating. If they couldn't find any hard evidence of Mike Postle's cheating, they certainly won't find any in this case. Mike Postle WAS ABSOLUTELY 100000% CHEATING, if someone thinks any different they are fools, idiots, or just have absolutely no understanding of poker, odds, or logic.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Oct 4, 2022
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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October 4th, 2022 at 6:26:41 AM permalink
So what are the poker livestream hosts and producers going to do now to try and prevent cheating? Unless, of course, they want the publicity.

Gene
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:53:57 AM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

So what are the poker livestream hosts and producers going to do now to try and prevent cheating? Unless, of course, they want the publicity.

Gene
link to original post

Assuming they can convince people there was no evidence of cheating this is absolutely great for everyone involved.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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October 4th, 2022 at 8:11:02 AM permalink
Garrett had literally nothing in his hand by the end. I just don't understand why he's shocked that he lost....LOL
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October 4th, 2022 at 10:00:00 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Garrett had literally nothing in his hand by the end. I just don't understand why he's shocked that he lost....LOL
link to original post

He isn't shocked he lost, he is shocked she was willing to call with air and then she started to make up nonsense reasons for calling and then changing her story, etc.

Everyone watching was shocked.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
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October 4th, 2022 at 11:15:42 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

To add more fuel to the fire. This might add at least a little bit of suspicion.


link to original post


I wasted time watching that stupid video.

Assuming she had info - what info? She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised. Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?).

Unless she somehow knew what the two river cards (both of them) were going to be coming out of the shoe AND what Garrett was holding, none of the "cheating" theories holds up.

She just strikes me as either in fact a little off, or pretending to be off, is all. This sort of nervous personality fits with that she might be prone to moving her foot around and tapping her own chair, which would explain the supposed chair vibration mentioned in a prior hand, in that video.

As far as Garrett - he was dumbstruck as soon as the hand outcome was revealed. He had that moribund cow look pining over an unexpected call & loss from the getgo. He got more flustered after she gave inconsistent reasoning for her actions, but he didn't deserve any explanation at all and certainly didn't deserve a refund.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
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October 4th, 2022 at 11:20:19 AM permalink
If she was cheating this would be some of the worst cheating ever in the history of card playing....LOL....
rawtuff
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October 4th, 2022 at 11:42:00 AM permalink
Garrett's face after the showdown is like "Is this real life?".
So understand. Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years. Face up, make your stand. Realize you're living in the golden years
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:12:05 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: AxelWolf

To add more fuel to the fire. This might add at least a little bit of suspicion.


link to original post


I wasted time watching that stupid video.

Assuming she had info - what info? She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised. Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?).

Unless she somehow knew what the two river cards (both of them) were going to be coming out of the shoe AND what Garrett was holding, none of the "cheating" theories holds up.

She just strikes me as either in fact a little off, or pretending to be off, is all. This sort of nervous personality fits with that she might be prone to moving her foot around and tapping her own chair, which would explain the supposed chair vibration mentioned in a prior hand, in that video.

As far as Garrett - he was dumbstruck as soon as the hand outcome was revealed. He had that moribund cow look pining over an unexpected call & loss from the getgo. He got more flustered after she gave inconsistent reasoning for her actions, but he didn't deserve any explanation at all and certainly didn't deserve a refund.
link to original post

Said the guy who spends a significant amount of time on multiple different forums. How much time do you spend sending PMs to people with what I would consider nonsense? How much time do you spend complaining to the mods and Mike about other members? Certainty it's been hours on me alone.

Anyways

To be clear, I think it's more likely than not that she wasn't cheating.

Like Dough Polk or not, I respect his poker knowledge, poker abilities, and ability to investigate and break things down. Right or wrong, it was interesting to hear what he had to say, if you enjoy poker his videos are worth watching.

Did you actually watch and understand what he had to say regarding some of the other hands?

MD: "She knew he was holding 7 8 suited?"
If you watch that video and understand poker, how is it you don't understand that if she was cheating, it's more than likely that she doesn't have perfect information? knowledgeable gamblers realized that from the get-go. There are cheating situations where your information would be limited to only knowing if you have the best hand or not. That would certainly explain the situation, including other hands she played.

I don't understand why you and others think she would never have agreed to "a double river draw"? Are you just reading crap on the internet and repeating it? FYI, It's called Running it twice. That really has no bearing on the outcome, it's actually better for both her and him IF they are interested in avoiding variance.

One might want to run it twice if losing means you can't continue in a valuable game.

There are some other theoretical and psychological reasoning why you should or shouldn't run it twice. but that's a different topic.

I agree, the chair vibration thing is nonsense.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:20:03 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

If she was cheating this would be some of the worst cheating ever in the history of card playing....LOL....
link to original post

I disagree, It depends on what information someone has acsess to.

Information if you have the best hand or you don't would be super valuable, however, it wouldn't come without significant variance, seemingly bad /strange plays, and bet structuring. FYI She has been winning.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
GenoDRPh
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October 4th, 2022 at 7:52:51 PM permalink
The vibrating chair thing is nonsense. Something powerful enough to vibrate a chair with a human adult female sitting on it would be difficult to conceal. Not to mention others in close proximity would see and possibly hear the um, vibrator,

Gene
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October 5th, 2022 at 4:04:17 PM permalink
Quote: GenoDRPh

So what are the poker livestream hosts and producers going to do now to try and prevent cheating? Unless, of course, they want the publicity.

Gene
link to original post

Funny you should ask, but I heard talks about using metal detection wands.




Isn't that some crazy @#$%. You can't make this stuff up.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MDawg
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October 5th, 2022 at 4:30:24 PM permalink
As usual, a sort of no personal experience, "this is what could be," musing:

Quote: AxelWolf

There are cheating situations where your information would be limited to only knowing if you have the best hand or not.
link to original post


Not that I have personal experience with cheating, but it's not hard to understand what could or could have been going on here. That video you posted was a waste of time, but probably the intention was to garner an audience versus make perfect sense.

The reality:

Quote: MDawg

Assuming she had info - what info?
link to original post


If she were cheating her signal would have been red light, fold! because she did not have the best hand outcome at the turn.

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 6:22:28 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg


If she were cheating her signal would have been red light, fold! because she did not have the best hand outcome at the turn.

She did have the best hand at that point. And she should've called. Even if she was behind a little and knew that, she was supposed to call. I thought you said you were good at poker.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Oct 5, 2022
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 6:32:40 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

As usual, a sort of no personal experience, "this is what could be," musing:

Quote: AxelWolf

There are cheating situations where your information would be limited to only knowing if you have the best hand or not.
link to original post


Not that I have personal experience with cheating, but it's not hard to understand what could or could have been going on here. That video you posted was a waste of time, but probably the intention was to garner an audience versus make perfect sense.

The reality:

Quote: MDawg

Assuming she had info - what info?
link to original post


If she were cheating her signal would have been red light, fold! because she did not have the best hand outcome at the turn.

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post

You are not paying attention, she was asked if she had a 3 and she said, "no"

She also said, "it's a pure bluff catcher". She knew exactly what she had. Anything claimed after that was a defensive reaction to a very abnormal play.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
unJon
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October 5th, 2022 at 6:50:58 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

As usual, a sort of no personal experience, "this is what could be," musing:

Quote: AxelWolf

There are cheating situations where your information would be limited to only knowing if you have the best hand or not.
link to original post


Not that I have personal experience with cheating, but it's not hard to understand what could or could have been going on here. That video you posted was a waste of time, but probably the intention was to garner an audience versus make perfect sense.

The reality:

Quote: MDawg

Assuming she had info - what info?
link to original post


If she were cheating her signal would have been red light, fold! because she did not have the best hand outcome at the turn.

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post



She was 47% to win on the turn. If sheís cheating there are much better spots. You have to assume sheís both cheating and very stupid.

ETA: this was in response to AW. Not sure why it donít quote his post.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
MDawg
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October 5th, 2022 at 6:55:48 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post


According to Ivey: "If you notice in the middle of the hand she asked, Can you beat a 3?...She misread her hand, and she didn't want to say [later] that she misread her hand, because she's at a poker table."

Phil Ivey shares what he thinks happened during the Robbi vs GMAN infamous poker hand

The fact that you seem to keep arguing that she must have cheated, makes me even more confident that I could beat you at heads up poker! I continue to believe that you have poor reads on people, including on me.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
unJon
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October 5th, 2022 at 6:58:19 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post


According to Ivey: "If you notice in the middle of the hand she asked, Can you beat a 3?...She misread her hand, and she didn't want to say [later] that she misread her hand, because she's at a poker table."

Phil Ivey shares what he thinks happened during the Robbi vs GMAN infamous poker hand

The fact that you seem to keep arguing that she must have cheated, makes me even more confident that I could beat you at heads up poker! I continue to believe that you have poor reads on people, including on me.
link to original post



This has been my impression after watching twice.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 7:49:02 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post


According to Ivey: "If you notice in the middle of the hand she asked, Can you beat a 3?...She misread her hand, and she didn't want to say [later] that she misread her hand, because she's at a poker table."

Phil Ivey shares what he thinks happened during the Robbi vs GMAN infamous poker hand

The fact that you seem to keep arguing that she must have cheated, makes me even more confident that I could beat you at heads up poker! I continue to believe that you have poor reads on people, including on me.
link to original post

Please quote where I'm arguing that she must have cheated. I think I made it clear I didn't think she was cheating, but I wasn't ruling anything out.

Given that you lodged a complaint against me regarding something you may have said, and I was asked to prove it, ill be seeking the same in this case.

Regarding your comment about playing heads up, I have already made a proposal a few years back and you made some type of excuse and then basically ignored it when I said we could solve those issues.

I'm more than willing to play you heads up. I think Mike would be willing to host it on a real table with real chips. I can get a professional dealer or ask Mike to deal. I already suspect you'll just try to come up with excuses or engage in some big-bet fluff situation.

To avoid that, I'll just tell you now... I'd be willing to do three 4k buy-in freezeouts. Less if you wish.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 7:55:58 PM permalink
This month I'm available 9-14,17-20, 23 -27.

Pot-limit, or no-limit is fine.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
unJon
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October 5th, 2022 at 8:03:59 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post


According to Ivey: "If you notice in the middle of the hand she asked, Can you beat a 3?...She misread her hand, and she didn't want to say [later] that she misread her hand, because she's at a poker table."

Phil Ivey shares what he thinks happened during the Robbi vs GMAN infamous poker hand

The fact that you seem to keep arguing that she must have cheated, makes me even more confident that I could beat you at heads up poker! I continue to believe that you have poor reads on people, including on me.
link to original post

Please quote where I'm arguing that she must have cheated. I think I made it clear I didn't think she was cheating, but I wasn't ruling anything out.

Given that you lodged a complaint against me regarding something you may have said, and I was asked to prove it, ill be seeking the same in this case.

Regarding your comment about playing heads up, I have already made a proposal a few years back and you made some type of excuse and then basically ignored it when I said we could solve those issues.

I'm more than willing to play you heads up. I think Mike would be willing to host it on a real table with real chips. I can get a professional dealer or ask Mike to deal. I already suspect you'll just try to come up with excuses or engage in some big-bet fluff situation.

To avoid that, I'll just tell you now... I'd be willing to do three 4k buy-in freezeouts. Less if you wish.
link to original post



Can I get in on this and can we raise the stakes?
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 8:43:49 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

Quote: MDawg

Probably what Phil Ivey said made the most sense, that he heard Robbi mention that "all I have is a 3" during the hand, that she misread her hand, then later was embarrassed and didn't want to seem dumb in front of the other pros, so was equivocal about her mistake.
link to original post


According to Ivey: "If you notice in the middle of the hand she asked, Can you beat a 3?...She misread her hand, and she didn't want to say [later] that she misread her hand, because she's at a poker table."

Phil Ivey shares what he thinks happened during the Robbi vs GMAN infamous poker hand

The fact that you seem to keep arguing that she must have cheated, makes me even more confident that I could beat you at heads up poker! I continue to believe that you have poor reads on people, including on me.
link to original post

Please quote where I'm arguing that she must have cheated. I think I made it clear I didn't think she was cheating, but I wasn't ruling anything out.

Given that you lodged a complaint against me regarding something you may have said, and I was asked to prove it, ill be seeking the same in this case.

Regarding your comment about playing heads up, I have already made a proposal a few years back and you made some type of excuse and then basically ignored it when I said we could solve those issues.

I'm more than willing to play you heads up. I think Mike would be willing to host it on a real table with real chips. I can get a professional dealer or ask Mike to deal. I already suspect you'll just try to come up with excuses or engage in some big-bet fluff situation.

To avoid that, I'll just tell you now... I'd be willing to do three 4k buy-in freezeouts. Less if you wish.
link to original post



Can I get in on this and can we raise the stakes?
link to original post

That's up to him, I haven't a clue how well you play poker. I haven't any tells. It's unlikely I would care to just purely gamble at higher steaks or even those steaks with you.

Given everything Mdwag has ever said regarding poker, I'm certainly willing to take that chance playing him, I'm confident I would be at significant +EV. But who knows?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
MDawg
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October 5th, 2022 at 8:46:02 PM permalink
If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
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October 5th, 2022 at 8:48:33 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

[
Can I get in on this and can we raise the stakes?
link to original post

If you ever want to just play some normal steaks 1-2 - 2-5 NL $300 - no max "friendly game" feel free to hit me up, always looking for a reason to set up a poker night.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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October 5th, 2022 at 9:22:29 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
link to original post

You are literally the one who jumped in and tried to butt heads with me. Notice that your very first post in this thread was on page 8 of 10 where you quote and address me in a semi-confrontational derogatory way.

At least one of your arguments was invalid. Let's take a look....

"She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised." Explain Why she would have folded, Folding makes no sense if you're a poker player. (nor does raising but let's address that separately)


"Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?)." This makes no real sense, it just seems like something you heard someone else say and it seemed logical to you.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Seedvalue
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October 6th, 2022 at 2:14:45 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
link to original post

You are literally the one who jumped in and tried to butt heads with me. Notice that your very first post in this thread was on page 8 of 10 where you quote and address me in a semi-confrontational derogatory way.

At least one of your arguments was invalid. Let's take a look....

"She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised." Explain Why she would have folded, Folding makes no sense if you're a poker player. (nor does raising but let's address that separately)


"Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?)." This makes no real sense, it just seems like something you heard someone else say and it seemed logical to you.
link to original post



She knew the run out. This type of hustle is going on in many private games. The acting was for the camera and show. Iím very surprised how naive everyone is. There are a few guys that have figured it out, but they are being shouted down as misogynist. Iím very surprised you donít know the hustle Axel, or at least know of someone who does. Not my place to spell it out, but itís going to be dam hard to catch them. At best they discover the security flaw and put out a public statement on how they fixed it.
AxelWolf
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October 6th, 2022 at 2:48:30 AM permalink
Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
link to original post

You are literally the one who jumped in and tried to butt heads with me. Notice that your very first post in this thread was on page 8 of 10 where you quote and address me in a semi-confrontational derogatory way.

At least one of your arguments was invalid. Let's take a look....

"She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised." Explain Why she would have folded, Folding makes no sense if you're a poker player. (nor does raising but let's address that separately)


"Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?)." This makes no real sense, it just seems like something you heard someone else say and it seemed logical to you.
link to original post



She knew the run out. This type of hustle is going on in many private games. The acting was for the camera and show. Iím very surprised how naive everyone is. There are a few guys that have figured it out, but they are being shouted down as misogynist. Iím very surprised you donít know the hustle Axel, or at least know of someone who does. Not my place to spell it out, but itís going to be dam hard to catch them. At best they discover the security flaw and put out a public statement on how they fixed it.
link to original post

Yeah, I don't know all the different cheating methods people could be using on poker, there's just too many possibilities, especially with the technology they have nowadays. Oftentimes even the simple stuff is hard to prove. As we saw with Mike P. even when it's 1000% certain someone was cheating at poker nothing can really be done.

I already said I'm confident cheating or not, no hard evidence will ever be found. It would have to be 2 or more people involved and someone would have to spill the beans. Unless someone is very sloppy and leaves some evidence around to be found.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Seedvalue
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October 6th, 2022 at 3:10:49 AM permalink
Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
link to original post

You are literally the one who jumped in and tried to butt heads with me. Notice that your very first post in this thread was on page 8 of 10 where you quote and address me in a semi-confrontational derogatory way.

At least one of your arguments was invalid. Let's take a look....

"She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised." Explain Why she would have folded, Folding makes no sense if you're a poker player. (nor does raising but let's address that separately)


"Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?)." This makes no real sense, it just seems like something you heard someone else say and it seemed logical to you.
link to original post



She knew the run out. This type of hustle is going on in many private games. The acting was for the camera and show. Iím very surprised how naive everyone is. There are a few guys that have figured it out, but they are being shouted down as misogynist. Iím very surprised you donít know the hustle Axel, or at least know of someone who does. Not my place to spell it out, but itís going to be dam hard to catch them. At best they discover the security flaw and put out a public statement on how they fixed it.
link to original post



F it I will will post a little more info on the hustle Im aware of. In private home games all it takes is a deck of RFID cards, and a device to read the cards. The one I seen was a modified Janam handheld computer that looked like a phone. There was a guy I met out of Florida who had one and was showing me how it worked. The device has the capability to read every card because each RFID card has a tag. Once the the person using reader had the next card info they would single directly or indirectly to the player in the hand to continue. The problem was as he explained it that it often took some time to get the information. There could be interference and nothing would work. So the player in the hand often had to stall. Theres more to it but thatís basically the play. The guy definitely was talking about doing some crazy stuff once they figured out how to work fix bugs.

After this conversation I basically decided I would never Play in private home games again. To much tech out here to be worried about. I rather make my money in the casino. In any event itís highly probable (if there was cheating) this was the play, or a slightly more advanced variation was being run on gman. The device I seen looked exactly like a iPhone but it wasnít.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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Mission146
October 6th, 2022 at 10:34:29 AM permalink
Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: Seedvalue

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: MDawg

If you're not arguing to some end, then you must be arguing to no end, just because you like to jump in and butt heads with people for no reason at all, I don't like that sort of thing, either.
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You are literally the one who jumped in and tried to butt heads with me. Notice that your very first post in this thread was on page 8 of 10 where you quote and address me in a semi-confrontational derogatory way.

At least one of your arguments was invalid. Let's take a look....

"She knew he was holding 7 8 suited? Then she would have folded at the turn, not raised." Explain Why she would have folded, Folding makes no sense if you're a poker player. (nor does raising but let's address that separately)


"Also, if she knew he had 7 8 suited she would never have agreed to a double river draw (that wasn't a standard rule for the game, was it?)." This makes no real sense, it just seems like something you heard someone else say and it seemed logical to you.
link to original post



She knew the run out. This type of hustle is going on in many private games. The acting was for the camera and show. Iím very surprised how naive everyone is. There are a few guys that have figured it out, but they are being shouted down as misogynist. Iím very surprised you donít know the hustle Axel, or at least know of someone who does. Not my place to spell it out, but itís going to be dam hard to catch them. At best they discover the security flaw and put out a public statement on how they fixed it.
link to original post



F it I will will post a little more info on the hustle Im aware of. In private home games all it takes is a deck of RFID cards, and a device to read the cards. The one I seen was a modified Janam handheld computer that looked like a phone. There was a guy I met out of Florida who had one and was showing me how it worked. The device has the capability to read every card because each RFID card has a tag. Once the the person using reader had the next card info they would single directly or indirectly to the player in the hand to continue. The problem was as he explained it that it often took some time to get the information. There could be interference and nothing would work. So the player in the hand often had to stall. Theres more to it but thatís basically the play. The guy definitely was talking about doing some crazy stuff once they figured out how to work fix bugs.

After this conversation I basically decided I would never Play in private home games again. To much tech out here to be worried about. I rather make my money in the casino. In any event itís highly probable (if there was cheating) this was the play, or a slightly more advanced variation was being run on gman. The device I seen looked exactly like a iPhone but it wasnít.
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Oh, I thought there was something different. I have heard of this and seen it demonstrated online, but I'm not buying the fact that she knew the run-out. It just doesn't jive with the rest of her play/hands Then again, I wasn't really looking for that in particular. That certainly wouldn't make sense for her to want to run it twice.

I just can't imagine someone would be dumb enough to be so blatant about it, especially in a hand like this. Unless for some reason it's only working intermittently and a sense of urgency and greed takes over. I say, "I just can't imagine someone would be dumb enough to be so blatant about it" But then I think about the Mike Postle incident and just how crazy blatant that was.

You would think anyone savvy enough to pull this move off would be smart enough to learn from the Postle scandal and be very selective when using that type of information. Then again, getting into the minds of cheaters is a fool's errand.

If I had to put a number on it, I would say there's less than a 10% chance she was cheating.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
unJon
unJon
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Mission146
October 6th, 2022 at 11:42:47 AM permalink
AxelWolf, system not letting me send PMs but in response to your question to me, yes feel free to quote that PM.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
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