DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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July 26th, 2011 at 5:03:23 AM permalink
On a side note...

I've never been to a California card room. Do they have player banking of other games, where the option rotates around the table?

Do any casinos or card rooms have Pai Gow Poker where banking is forced to rotate and/or where it's played in the poker room?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
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July 26th, 2011 at 6:06:48 AM permalink
I can speak for Hustler, but I believe many of the card rooms are the same.

In Cali - the "house" cannot, technically, play. The house does field and fund proposition players at every table who bank every hand that other players do not bank. There are higher end tables where there is no proposition player - people simply buy in for the required amount (typically over $2,000 on a $100/hand table) and take turns banking on what looks like a mis-shapen big-Bac table.

The casino makes it's money off of commission. $1 for up to every $100 bet. Note, "Bet" does not = Won. So you could play 10 hands at $10 a piece and push every single one of them and be out $10. I believe I worked it out that this flat style commission is better for bets a little more than $60 (I think I got to $62, off the cuff) and up to (and including) $100.

Fortune Bonuses are paid out from the house. Jokers are *fully* wild. I saw more quads (Trips of any kind + joker) in a few hours than I have in a month at a standard table.

And, again, just at hustler, there's no sense of "pit" or table formalities. People are playing 3 different hands on 3 different tables, walking in between what would be "the pit" to do so. People will play the 1 hand on the far other side of the table - the dealer will move the cards for them. And when comparing hands, it's done in a very informal way - in "traditional" Pai Gow, there's a very fixed way of aligning the cards. 2 neat lines and the low hand in-axis with the first two cards of the high-hand. In Cali, it's flip the cards, spread them, pop two of them up and that's it. If you can't see Q35K7AQ for what it is, you're going to get passed by, quickly.

But, oddly enough, (and, I concede that my sample size is small.. maybe 1000 hands), I never saw one mistake. Not one mis-read hand.

My understanding is that BJ, etc. are played out the same way - that players can bank, though I've never tried.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 26th, 2011 at 6:49:04 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Mike would advise to do anything that will get you the best possible player advantage while still being legal. All advantage players take that position, and I understand. For myself, I work for the industry - on the operator's side - at Stations. I can see the casino operator's POV.



No offense, but I think lately you've been posting from a skewed operator's point of view. Almost as though anything a player might do within the rules to improve his chances is unethical. Just an observation.

Quote:

But banking is just viewed as an archaic gizmo of the game of Pai gow poker, and unnecessary in the casino pit.



I've no quarrel with that. The solution is both easy and obvious: change the rules so banking isn't allowed in PGP, and for that matter in the original tiles game of Pai Gow as well. As far as I know, nothing prevents the casinos from doing so. Nothng kept them from placing in 6:5 21 games where the dealer hits soft 17, did it? I know if they were to change the rule that lets players shoot in craps, the game would die. But banking in PGP seems rather uncommon anyway, so why not just kill it?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:06:16 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

No offense, but I think lately you've been posting from a skewed operator's point of view. Almost as though anything a player might do within the rules to improve his chances is unethical. Just an observation.


Humbly disagree. A player who plays the rules - as defined by the house - doesn't cheat and doesn't "take cheap shots" (again, just playing by the rules as defined by the house and out for a night of gambling) - is absolutely 100% fine with me. But slip in and make a late "Don't Pass" bet after the point of 4 is established - and arguing that it's not a Lay bet, openly lying abou it - is going to make such a guy look like a cheat and d-bag to me and the boxman 100% of the time. If a Good guy wins, then great, good for him. If he loses, and was a good guy, I feel his pain, not meaning to sound like Bill Clinton.
I dealt Pai Gow and dice to a player tonight (seemingly a very tough and gruff guy on the surface, but a sweatheart, really), I got along great with him, played 100% by the rules, and knew them. He dealt dice at Palace Station and supervised floor for 15 years, found this out after dealing to him for hours. He did mention that dealing as a dealer/floorman with the "Gambling General Public" at a low-roller's joint for years "changes you, maybe changes you for life, in your view of people, at least gamblers." I can 100% see this. The gambling general public is a mixed bag. Players gravitate to one side, and industry people who have to police their operations for dealers and players alike gravitate to the other.


[Banking as an archaic appendix to Pai Gow Poker...]

Quote: Nareed

I've no quarrel with that. The solution is both easy and obvious: change the rules so banking isn't allowed in PGP, and for that matter in the original tiles game of Pai Gow as well. As far as I know, nothing prevents the casinos from doing so. Nothng kept them from placing in 6:5 21 games where the dealer hits soft 17, did it? I know if they were to change the rule that lets players shoot in craps, the game would die. But banking in PGP seems rather uncommon anyway, so why not just kill it?


Agree - and a lot of places are doing this to clean up Pai Gow Poker - less disagreements, less dealer errors, less player errors and expectations, just less problems in general.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:12:40 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

On a side note...

I've never been to a California card room. Do they have player banking of other games, where the option rotates around the table?

Do any casinos or card rooms have Pai Gow Poker where banking is forced to rotate and/or where it's played in the poker room?



In California card rooms, especially Baccarat and Pai Gow, there often a permanent Player-Banker who bankrolls the game, where the dealer acts like disinterested party, like a poker room dealer. A time-based percentage rake is charged to all, or the "banker" pays a "license fee" to the house for his banking seat. Basically, a guy sits at 3rd base with $80,000 in chips (and probably a concealed weapon) and bankrolls the game for hours. Often named Mr. Chew, Choi, or Chien. If he's up, maybe $10,000 for the night, fine. If he's down, he covers. We call it "the syndicate," really, it's a who-you-know that gets you into that job. You do not see an ad in the L.A. times.

There are people who play Pai Gow Poker as a career...
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Nareed
Nareed
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:18:48 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Humbly disagree. A player who plays the rules - as defined by the house - doesn't cheat and doesn't "take cheap shots" (again, just playing by the rules as defined by the house and out for a night of gambling) - is absolutely 100% fine with me. But slip in and make a late "Don't Pass" bet after the point of 4 is established - and arguing that it's not a Lay bet, openly lying abou it - is going to make such a guy look like a cheat and d-bag to me and the boxman 100% of the time.



I agree with that, he also slows the game down.

But let's say I'm playing 3CP and this dealer flashes his bottom card. I won't say a word about it. I won't pretend I didn't see the card. I'll be on the lookout for more flashing cards, too. If a dealer pays me in error, well, I may or may not say something. It's in my character to correct errors most of the time (as you can see in this forum), but I don't always do it. If a BJ dealer has 18 and draws a card and busts, tough for him, too. I'm guessing you'd say all that is wrong.

Let me cite a concrete example. One time at Excalibur the PGP dealer had a flush, but set his hands with a high card on both, breaking up the 5 card flush to do so. I noticed it, as did at elast another player. I said nothing for two reasons 1) I'd have won that hand with that dealer set and 2) I wasn't sure he wasn't following some weird house way rule setting his cards like that.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:41:46 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I agree with that, he also slows the game down.

But let's say I'm playing 3CP and this dealer flashes his bottom card. I won't say a word about it. I won't pretend I didn't see the card. I'll be on the lookout for more flashing cards, too. If a dealer pays me in error, well, I may or may not say something. It's in my character to correct errors most of the time (as you can see in this forum), but I don't always do it. If a BJ dealer has 18 and draws a card and busts, tough for him, too. I'm guessing you'd say all that is wrong.

Let me cite a concrete example. One time at Excalibur the PGP dealer had a flush, but set his hands with a high card on both, breaking up the 5 card flush to do so. I noticed it, as did at elast another player. I said nothing for two reasons 1) I'd have won that hand with that dealer set and 2) I wasn't sure he wasn't following some weird house way rule setting his cards like that.



There's the grey area....very wide.
1. Dealer makes an error flashing his hole card, BJ or 3CP, whatever. Players takes advantage. Not a crime, not an issue, between the player and God on judgement day when far away from me. Same with counting, if I'm not dealing or playing there. If I'm playing somewhere, I might discreetly notify a floorman, and for an outright error I'll say something open right at the table, no matter who it favors, "You have a straight," etc.
Granted, mistakes are not how the game's supposed to be played and dealt, and I may point it out at the table, will certainly mention to the floor if egregious. But I won't argue with players if I'm dealing, I just call the floorman if I'm dealing. If I see a bank's ATM pumping out $100's instead of $20's for the same transaction, I'll call the the bank's 800 number.

For me, If I'm playing and I see the hole card, and have an advantage, I'll either fold a winning hand or play out a losing hand one time, AND I'll point it out and request it be cleaned up. I do NOT want that money, creeps me out - though 99% of the people will take it with a closed smile. The old "Dealer error or bank error makes it mine, hope they don't notice, hope I get away with it..."
So, if a Pai Gow Dealer sets his hand wrong: tries to play a straight as a pair of 2's with no top, I'll point it out before the hand set is final, and before the table's take-and-pay. If a player said, "You cost me money, @--hole" - I'll answer, "I did no such thing, and you never won that hand or the money. A dealer's error doesn't make it yours, same with a bank teller. Go rob a 7-11, will ya?" I once pointed out that the dealer had a Queen-high push at the Cannery when she tried to pay the table including me. Again:
1. The money was never yours by the rules, and
2. Dealer errors get corrected, just as if the game had played with no error, that's the point.
3. When breaking in, I had players return "unjust" money on my mistake. I thanked 'em.

The game goes fine, and it usually does, we're all fine.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
kp
kp
Joined: Feb 28, 2011
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:49:38 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

What if the rule that states the bank wins copies were removed, would players want to bank then?



So who would win a copy if not the bank? The player?
PerpetualNewbie
PerpetualNewbie
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:52:11 AM permalink
Ya know, there was a thread a while back about someone's dad not recognizing whether or not he won an Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em hand. And, after some back and forth, the conclusion was that we're all responsible for our own hands.

I maintain that this holds true for dealers, too. It's their responsibility to find their own straights and flushes. It's their responsibility to keep the window (the bottom-most card in his hand) hidden.

I will correct a dealer to his own house way if it's in my favor. Of course, to do so, I make darned sure I know the house way for the place I'm playing at. But I don't consider myself a bad guy or a cheat because of it.

Now - weaseling a few bucks on the bonus when I hit one? Or capping my bet when I get a monster? That's definitely outside the rules and is cheating.

I suppose you could make the argument either way for opening my eyes and seeing other players' cards. I'm not actively cheating, but I'm not actively "not-cheating." That said, I don't know how Pai Gow can defend this without going to an iTable where the cards are hidden unless definitely protected by sensing a hand.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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July 26th, 2011 at 7:54:17 AM permalink
Quote: kp

So who would win a copy if not the bank? The player?



There rules haven't changed, the dealer/banker wins copies.
But, if it were changed, it can be done as follows - a la Mini-Pai Gow....
Push or tie that side of the hand (almost always the low hand), and let the other side of the hand fully decide the outcome.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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