Thread Rating:

BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
February 11th, 2015 at 3:53:58 PM permalink
I'm posting to "Other Games" because there is no clear-cut domain for blackjack side bets.

Mohegan Sun has announced they will be "the ONLY location [of six casinos] in New England" offering Super 4 Progressive Blackjack starting in March. The highly doubtful claim is made "When the dealer gets Blackjack, everyone at the table wins!" The progressive pot starts at $50K. A 4-card poker hand formed with your cards and the dealer's determines the payout. It will be available "at most Blackjack tables." I can't locate information about this specific side bet. Does anyone out there have information, such as a pay table? Rules? House edge? I'll pass on Mohegan Sun's advice to "ask your friendly Dealer" for offical rules. Yeah. Right.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
February 25th, 2015 at 11:44:08 AM permalink
Information on this game has not been forthcoming and what little that has should not be considered 100% reliable. Here's what's out there as of today.

Most dealers have finished their training.

The side bet is $5 and $5 only. It is not mandatory.

All tables will have this side bet. The circle will be to the left of the blackjack bet as Match The Dealer will be retained in it's usual place.

Nothing can happen unless the dealer has a blackjack. Only then will there be payouts mostly based on poker hands. There's even a payout for cards of the same color, not suits just red or black.

That's it so far and it's subject to change. Can't wait to watch players root for the dealer to get a blackjack. :-(
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
February 25th, 2015 at 12:44:41 PM permalink
Thanks, 1BB! I find it odd that I can't locate any Internet-based information about this side bet. Nothing on the casino web site. I would expect the side bet is being shopped around for casinos in general and thus would have some commercial information posted.

Sounds like Mohegan Sun is "all in" on this side bet if they are going to put new felt on every blackjack table. Perhaps that is driven by the progressive jackpot element. If every table is being changed I'm wary of some other undesirable change piggy-backing on the activity, like a change to H17. I'm surprised to hear "every table" since the pit at the Bow & Arrow bar hasn't had any side bets yet. (That pit seems to be run by a crew separate from the rest of the casino.)

Hmmm... maybe the Pocono and Resorts tables will be part of the jackpot.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Boz
Boz
  • Threads: 155
  • Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
February 25th, 2015 at 1:03:13 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Information on this game has not been forthcoming and what little that has should not be considered 100% reliable. Here's what's out there as of today.

Most dealers have finished their training.

The side bet is $5 and $5 only. It is not mandatory.

All tables will have this side bet. The circle will be to the left of the blackjack bet as Match The Dealer will be retained in it's usual place.

Nothing can happen unless the dealer has a blackjack. Only then will there be payouts mostly based on poker hands. There's even a payout for cards of the same color, not suits just red or black.

That's it so far and it's subject to change. Can't wait to watch players root for the dealer to get a blackjack. :-(



Good information, Thanks! With them going all in on it, I'm sure it is a nice HA for them.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
February 25th, 2015 at 1:07:00 PM permalink
There go the hands per hour, at least in the beginning.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14264
Joined: May 21, 2013
February 25th, 2015 at 1:37:28 PM permalink
FWIW, I'm finding that nearly all sidebets have an independent HA from the main game (including ALL that are optional that I've seen), and so one should be the same and not affect how they deal the game. If they're seeding with 50K and only running it one place, it makes sense to me that they're offering it on all tables; they need a large player base to pay a top hand that high and up. Also inferring from your saying there's not a lot of info, that they may have developed it in house and it's not being marketed/distributed elsewhere. I'll be interested to hear what-all it's about; thanks for the heads'-up!

Edit: It does seem interesting that they're putting it on all BJ; are they all the same number of decks at their tables? Maybe they'll field different pay tables to compensate.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
February 25th, 2015 at 2:43:50 PM permalink
There are over 100 blackjack tables at the Connecticut Mohegan Sun. They are all 6 deck S17 with the exception of five H17 tables, still 6 deck, that are $5 minimums that never increase. It will be interesting especially in light of the fact that, in my opinion, they blew it with Free Bet.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 2nd, 2015 at 9:24:10 AM permalink
Tables are being outfitted as I post. One pit in the Sky Casino has been completed and will open around noon. Work in the Winter Casino is almost complete. The felts are the same but are being replaced to accommodate the electrical work. The tables have to be stripped because of the sensors. Each betting circle has a round, red plastic sensor in the 12 o'clock position directly above it where the $5 chip is to be placed. Each table has an electronic sign displaying the progressive bonus and even has the pit number and table number on it. There is a device in the center portion of the tray that has a start button for the dealer to press and also shows the six seat positions. We've seen these on other games.

This bet is $5 only. To play simply place a $5 chip on the sensor. Nothing happens unless the dealer gets a blackjack. When that occurs, players combine their two cards with the dealer's blackjack to make a four card hand. These are the payouts.

Royal Flush (Diamonds) 100% of progressive

Royal Flush 10% of progressive
(Spades, Hearts & Clubs)

Trips $750

Straight $500

Flush $400

Two Pair $300

Same Color $100

Pair $75

Any Hand $25

The progressive, before any play this morning, was at $60,479.16. I don't know if that is a true number or if it will be reset to $50,000.

Original wagers are not returned.

I'm told that every table will have this game, including the $500 minimum pit in the Sky Casino.

In the lower left hand corner of the rack card is an IN BET gaming logo with the website inbetgaming.com.

It should be interesting to see what the house edge is. What say you miplet et al?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 2nd, 2015 at 11:58:32 AM permalink
So a 5 for 1 payment instantly when the dealer has a blackjack.
15 for 1 if you have any ace or matching face card or a dealt pair.
20 for 1 for all four cards the same color, I presume?
60 for 1 for matching blackjacks (AQ v AQ)
80 for 1 for all four cards the same suit
100 for 1 for a 20 that completes the AKQJ, 10s can't fit.
150 for 1 for AA or a paired 20 that matches the dealer's face.
10% for the suited 20 that completes the suited AKQJ
100% if it's diamonds.

Not a bad looking game from the casino's standpoint. Looks like it'll be fun for the recreational player because the sting of a dealer blackjack is alleviated (even players who are betting $25 will be happy because WOW LOOK A BONUS). The hands seem simple to read and pay quickly. I'm sure the house edge must be enormous, since the hit frequency is only 4.83%. Any word on whether all payouts are paid out of the progressive jackpot or just the top two?

This might be countable though since a lot of emphasis seems to be placed on face cards.

I wonder if any other casinos have it or will pick it up, perhaps as a $1 bet.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
miplet
miplet 
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2109
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
March 2nd, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

It should be interesting to see what the house edge is. What say you miplet et al?


The same Color payout is being evil to my poor spreadsheet. I'll try and finish it tomorrow Wednesday.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 2nd, 2015 at 3:07:35 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

So a 5 for 1 payment instantly when the dealer has a blackjack.
15 for 1 if you have any ace or matching face card or a dealt pair.
20 for 1 for all four cards the same color, I presume?
60 for 1 for matching blackjacks (AQ v AQ)
80 for 1 for all four cards the same suit
100 for 1 for a 20 that completes the AKQJ, 10s can't fit.
150 for 1 for AA or a paired 20 that matches the dealer's face.
10% for the suited 20 that completes the suited AKQJ
100% if it's diamonds.

Not a bad looking game from the casino's standpoint. Looks like it'll be fun for the recreational player because the sting of a dealer blackjack is alleviated (even players who are betting $25 will be happy because WOW LOOK A BONUS). The hands seem simple to read and pay quickly. I'm sure the house edge must be enormous, since the hit frequency is only 4.83%. Any word on whether all payouts are paid out of the progressive jackpot or just the top two?

This might be countable though since a lot of emphasis seems to be placed on face cards.

I wonder if any other casinos have it or will pick it up, perhaps as a $1 bet.



The question you ask was raised and the general consensus is that only the top two are paid from the progressive. Don't forget that original wagers are not returned. Winning $25 nets you $20.

Now to beat the game. The dealer gets blackjack every 21 hands. Hmmm, wong out for 20 hands after a dealer blackjack? :-)

Invite aceofspades to bring his bad luck of 10 dealer blackjacks in one shoe? I'm just kidding about the last two.

It's going to be strange watching players root for the dealer to get blackjack. I know everyone will be on their best behavior. :-)
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Jan 3, 2017
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
Thanked by
richodude
March 2nd, 2015 at 3:57:12 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

It's going to be strange watching players root for the dealer to get blackjack. I know everyone will be on their best behavior. :-)



I assure you the Don't Pass etiquette will not be observed by anyone.

Player A: $10+$5 progressive. "HAVE IT! HAVE IT!"
Player B: $300, no progressive. "FU! FU!"
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
TriathlonTodd
TriathlonTodd
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 43
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
March 2nd, 2015 at 5:23:33 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB


Royal Flush (Diamonds) 100% of progressive
Royal Flush 10% of progressive
(Spades, Hearts & Clubs)
Trips $750
Straight $500
Flush $400
Two Pair $300
Same Color $100
Pair $75
Any Hand $25
The progressive, before any play this morning, was at $60,479.16. I don't know if that is a true number or if it will be reset to $50,000.

Original wagers are not returned.



Using the paytable that 1BB provided, and assuming an infinite deck, I am coming up with a house edge of 35.4% (!) when the progressive is at $50,000. The bet becomes breakeven at a progressive amount of $879,247.

This is my first attempt at an actuarial analysis in two years, so it is very possible that I made a mistake in the calculations somewhere.



Hand Payout Freq Prob Return
RF Diam 100%
50,000
12
0.000164%
0.0821
RF 10%
5,000
36
0.000492%
0.0246
Trips
745
4,096
0.056020%
0.4174
Straight
495
3,024
0.041359%
0.2047
Flush
395
5,296
0.072433%
0.2861
2 Pair
295
4,032
0.055145%
0.1627
Same Color
95
36,624
0.500902%
0.4759
Pair
70
78,848
1.078394%
0.7549
Dealer BJ
20
214,144
2.928819%
0.5858
Lose
-5
6,965,504
95.266272%
-4.7633
Totals
--
7,311,616
100%
-1.7693
--
--
--
--
-0.3539 HE
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Jan 3, 2017
StarCrusher
StarCrusher
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 11
Joined: Nov 1, 2014
March 2nd, 2015 at 5:29:31 PM permalink
(deleted)
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 2nd, 2015 at 5:37:35 PM permalink
Quote: TriathlonTodd

Using the paytable that 1BB provided, and assuming an infinite deck, I am coming up with a house edge of 35.4% (!) when the progressive is at $50,000. The bet becomes breakeven at a progressive amount of $879,247.


35.4% sounds about right for a progressive bonus.

Not that it makes much difference, but since you used 50,000 and 5,000 instead of 49,995 and 4,995, these are the odds for when the progressive is at $50,005.

How did you get the number of permutations as 7,311,616?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
TriathlonTodd
TriathlonTodd
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 43
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
March 2nd, 2015 at 5:46:15 PM permalink
Good catch about the $5 for the progressives.

52^4 = 7,311,616, so it is all of the order dependent ways to assign 2 dealer cards and 2 player cards. I find it easier to deal with permutations than combinations when using Excel, but the math is the same either way.
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 2nd, 2015 at 6:26:20 PM permalink
Quote: TriathlonTodd

Good catch about the $5 for the progressives.

52^4 = 7,311,616, so it is all of the order dependent ways to assign 2 dealer cards and 2 player cards. I find it easier to deal with permutations than combinations when using Excel, but the math is the same either way.


Right on. I was trying to do Permut(52,4).

Any idea how much of each $5 they put on the board?
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
March 2nd, 2015 at 11:29:40 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

... The progressive, before any play this [Monday] morning, was at $60,479.16. I don't know if that is a true number or if it will be reset to $50,000. ...

The progressive was at $54K+ on Sunday morning when 21 tables in two pits were set up for the side bet. Three tables in pit 26 (non-smoking turtle shell) were in play. The pit boss thought some tables were in play starting Friday night. So, it looks like that progressive was a true number.

Thanks to all for answering my OP. i would have put up some information on Sunday, but I'm not enough of an iPhone guru to get that job done. The dealer collects the progressive bets before the hand is dealt and the sensor for the hand is lighted to indicate the bet was made. If the dealer doesn't get BJ then that's the only impact on speed of the game.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 2nd, 2015 at 11:39:46 PM permalink
So the progressive is "due"? :-) Seriously, I wonder how long before someone hits. Maybe miplet can provide some insight when he looks into it.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
TriathlonTodd
TriathlonTodd
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 43
Joined: Jan 23, 2015
March 3rd, 2015 at 12:04:25 AM permalink
Sorry, I don't have any knowledge on how much of each bet goes into the meter, if that is what you are asking.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 3rd, 2015 at 3:21:07 AM permalink
I was joking about the overuse of the word "due". The dealer is due for a blackjack, the player is due for a blackjack, the jackpot is due to hit, my keno number is due, the machine is due to hit. Math be darned, something is always due in the minds of ever hopeful players.

The possibility of of counting this side bet was brought up as it should be with any new change. We know that blackjacks are expected as the count rises but is it enough for me to cough up five bucks? That's 20% of my base bet many times.

Players might benefit by knowing the true cost of the bet. I play heads up whenever I can with very fast dealers. Very fast. Fast enough to get in 200 hands an hour. If I always play the side bet that's $1000 an hour. Statistically, the dealer should get nine blackjacks. That would, at the very least, return $225 to me. What about the other $775? How much should I expect to get back on average from a variety of winning hands?

This bet is it's own best advertiser. All it takes is a couple of hits and the players are hooked. It's fun to play. The dealers and pits are hyping it, shamelessly gushing about how great it is. I have to wonder where all this unbridled enthusiasm was when Free Bet was installed. What a difference a year makes.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 4th, 2015 at 8:05:24 AM permalink
Mohegan Sun crews are finishing up the installs in the Casino of the Wind this morning and have begun the first high limit pit, the one next to Bow & Arrow bar. The progressive passed $70,000 this morning. I'm told that 75 cents out of every $5 bet goes to the progressive jackpot.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 4th, 2015 at 9:33:35 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB

Mohegan Sun crews are finishing up the installs in the Casino of the Wind this morning and have begun the first high limit pit, the one next to Bow & Arrow bar. The progressive passed $70,000 this morning. I'm told that 75 cents out of every $5 bet goes to the progressive jackpot.


15% is about right for a progressive where the majority of payouts come from the tray.

I guess if counting becomes an issue, they could start taking all payouts from the jackpot, and start putting 60-75% up.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
miplet
miplet 
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2109
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
March 6th, 2015 at 7:42:29 AM permalink
I finished my spreadsheet. My usual disclaimer about brainos and/or typos. This spreadsheet is very messy. This has a break even point of $831849.54

HandPayoutFreqProbReturn
RF Diam 100%50,000.003,888 0.0000016732 0.083660623245
RF 10%5,000.0011,664 0.0000050196 0.025098186974
Trips7501,165,824 0.0005017159 0.376286892108
Straight500979,776 0.0004216495 0.210824770578
Flush4001,614,528 0.0006948170 0.277926787504
2 Pair3001,204,416 0.0005183240 0.155497211739
Same Color10011,581,056 0.0049839422 0.498394219547
Pair7530,792,960 0.0132518427 0.993888204154
Dealer BJ2562,995,968 0.0271105038 0.677762595785
Lose02,213,323,740 0.9525105120 0.000000000000
Totals2,323,673,8203.299339491633


Direct link on my website: super4progressive.xlsb
Editable google doc: here
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3808
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
March 6th, 2015 at 9:17:12 AM permalink
I think it's an excellent side bet and would give it a try at my place if everything fell together. I would however adjust the pay table to drop to the house edge to about 20-25%. Probably reducing the RF payouts and bumping up one of the lower level payments a little.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
March 6th, 2015 at 9:59:49 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

I finished my spreadsheet. ...

Great work miplet, thanks for the effort. However, as previously pointed out in this thread the initial bet is collected before the deal and not returned, so the payout for non-RF wins should be decreased by $5.

Hmmm... If you don't play the progressive and someone hits an RF payout, I wonder if you have to sit there mid-hand until the payout is made. You know it's going to take a while.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
March 6th, 2015 at 10:06:08 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I think it's an excellent side bet and would give it a try at my place if everything fell together. I would however adjust the pay table to drop to the house edge to about 20-25%. Probably reducing the RF payouts and bumping up one of the lower level payments a little.

I think the angle is to offer the high jackpot and the average player will accept the terrible odds in the vein of Powerball strategy. Like all side bets, this one isn't aimed at the audience of this forum. IMHO
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 6th, 2015 at 11:06:21 AM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Great work miplet, thanks for the effort. However, as previously pointed out in this thread the initial bet is collected before the deal and not returned, so the payout for non-RF wins should be decreased by $5.

Hmmm... If you don't play the progressive and someone hits an RF payout, I wonder if you have to sit there mid-hand until the payout is made. You know it's going to take a while.



Wouldn't they have to verify the decks, that is count 312 cards? What if one or two were missing?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
racquet
racquet
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
March 7th, 2015 at 1:13:02 PM permalink
So how do they apply the progressive? I saw the odometer roll over 95K last night, and another poster said it topped 100K today. But how do they know in real time the total bet on the game, so as to roll the progressive in relation to that, or do they just spin the thing at a fixed rate from the starting $50K? Dealers were often putting cards on top of the sensor, causing the light to come on, all night last night, and honestly I never saw anyone, not even one, bet the silly thing.

Can we push the progressive by repeatedly tapping the red spot in between hands? They wouldn't be so stupid, those same folks who invented "Triple Down", would they?

As far as training is concerned, I saw floors last Friday explaining it to relief dealers as they came onto the table, and one of them told me that "as usual", they had not told anyone about it until they walked onto the floor and saw it. But that could just be the usual employee griping that goes on everywhere.

There seems to be more drinking of the KoolAid by the dealers this time than with FreeBet, but it's not as much of an interruption of their normal routine as FreeBet was, and it's a simpler game to manage since it only comes into play with a dealer blackjack.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 7th, 2015 at 1:31:35 PM permalink
Quote: racquet

So how do they apply the progressive? I saw the odometer roll over 95K last night, and another poster said it topped 100K today. But how do they know in real time the total bet on the game, so as to roll the progressive in relation to that, or do they just spin the thing at a fixed rate from the starting $50K? Dealers were often putting cards on top of the sensor, causing the light to come on, all night last night, and honestly I never saw anyone, not even one, bet the silly thing.

Can we push the progressive by repeatedly tapping the red spot in between hands? They wouldn't be so stupid, those same folks who invented "Triple Down", would they?

As far as training is concerned, I saw floors last Friday explaining it to relief dealers as they came onto the table, and one of them told me that "as usual", they had not told anyone about it until they walked onto the floor and saw it. But that could just be the usual employee griping that goes on everywhere.

There seems to be more drinking of the KoolAid by the dealers this time than with FreeBet, but it's not as much of an interruption of their normal routine as FreeBet was, and it's a simpler game to manage since it only comes into play with a dealer blackjack.



The progressive started at $50,000 and gets reset there when it hits. The royal flush in the other three suits pays 10% of the progressive so that would come off the meter? All the tables are connected. If no one at your table is playing, the total can still increase.

You can touch the sensors all you want. It won't make a difference because the dealer locks in the bets by using the device in the tray. It must have a name but I'll be darned if I know. Anybody? Barring a malfunction there should be no mistakes on who played the bet and who didn't.

They are really pushing this game. Unlike the unfortunate circumstances with Free Bet, bad mouthing this game by employees will not be tolerated.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 7th, 2015 at 2:26:10 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

You can touch the sensors all you want. It won't make a difference because the dealer locks in the bets by using the device in the tray. It must have a name but I'll be darned if I know. Anybody? Barring a malfunction there should be no mistakes on who played the bet and who didn't.


I just call it a keypad.

The only room for error with the progressive comes from late bets (which get left there and added to the meter after the hand), something accidentally activating an idle sensor like a dealer's hand or a stray card (which the dealer may or may not opt to fix), or accidentally registering wagers twice (which again, some dealers might be wont to let slide rather than call the floor).
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
miplet
miplet 
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 2109
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
March 8th, 2015 at 6:41:49 AM permalink
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

Great work miplet, thanks for the effort. However, as previously pointed out in this thread the initial bet is collected before the deal and not returned, so the payout for non-RF wins should be decreased by $5.


All of the payouts in my table are "for $5", so it is correct.
Quote: TriathlonTodd

Using the paytable that 1BB provided, and assuming an infinite deck, I am coming up with a house edge of 35.4% (!) when the progressive is at $50,000. The bet becomes breakeven at a progressive amount of $879,247.

This is my first attempt at an actuarial analysis in two years, so it is very possible that I made a mistake in the calculations somewhere.




Hand Payout Freq Prob Return
Pair
70
78,848
1.078394%
0.7549
Dealer BJ
20
214,144
2.928819%
0.5858


I'm getting 98560 for Pair (and 194432 for Dealer BJ). Are you counting the times when a player has a pair (either twos to nines or tens to kings that don't match the dealers)?
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Jan 3, 2017
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 9th, 2015 at 10:05:02 AM permalink
People aren't playing this game, at least when I've looked for it, and I've looked a lot. Maybe the meter tells the story. It was at $125,000 this morning. Is that good? Many are skittish on having to bet $5 every time. Others, believe it or not, have been asking what the house edge is. You should hear some of those answers from the all knowing dealers.

The keypads used to lock in the bets are also used to display table limits at the bottom of the new table signs. There are no more signs on the tables. To change limits, the game has to be stopped while a floor accesses the keypad. There have been some malfunctions but even without them it slows the game. I'm sure things will come together in due time. One thought I had was for the casino to give coupons for free bets to get this off the ground.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
racquet
racquet
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
March 9th, 2015 at 2:11:34 PM permalink
Same here - nobody plays the foolish thing, although in my neighborhood ($5 - $15 minimums) $5 is a real deal breaker, even without anyone knowing the absolutely horrible odds. The progressive seemed to be moving so uniformly that I thought initially it wasn't tied to actual wagering, especially since I didn't know about the "keypad". Changing table limit doesn't affect the progressive bet - it's $5 everywhere.
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 9th, 2015 at 4:23:27 PM permalink
The $5 progressive bet did surprise me. That seems to be an awful lot, even for Mohegan Sun. $1 or $2 would probably get a lot more biters.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 9th, 2015 at 4:26:15 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

People aren't playing this game, at least when I've looked for it, and I've looked a lot. Maybe the meter tells the story. It was at $125,000 this morning. Is that good?



$125,000 means it has gone up $75,000 (assuming it hasn't been hit yet). $75,000 to the board means $500,000 coin in so far, so 100,000 of those wagers have been made. I dunno how many tables they are running, but 100,000 wagers in a couple weeks doesn't seem bad to me.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
BleedingChipsSlowly
BleedingChipsSlowly
  • Threads: 23
  • Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 9, 2010
March 9th, 2015 at 6:15:11 PM permalink
The progressive has been offered for a little more than a week, and that's been during a roll-out where additional tables are being set up. Based on what has been reported in this thread I would hazard a guess that Mohegan Sun will gross at least $10,000,000 in a year. And they don't have to give any to the State of Connecticut.
“You don’t bring a bone saw to a negotiation.” - Robert Jordan, former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia
racquet
racquet
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
March 21st, 2015 at 9:31:30 AM permalink
High Drama at the Super 4 Progressive Blackjack Game!

Friday night at Mohegan CT, in the $5 pit in the Sky Casino, a player hit a payout on this side bet. Dealer AK, all black, Player AK, all black.

Player insists he is due $175 - $100 for two pair, $75 for all black. Dealer says no. Player insists, floor comes over, crowd gathers.

The player's argument is that since the display screen at the table does not specifically deny such an interpretation, it is valid. He has met both criteria, deserves both payouts. The discussion / argument, civil enough, bounces around between "all the rules can't fit on the screen", "show me the 'memorandum of understanding' that must exist for all these games, which is an agreement between the State of Connecticut and the tribal government", "let me speak to your manager", and so on. A crowd gathers, consisting of other players waiting for seats at the always-crowded $5 pit, players leaving their seats at other tables during their shuffle, passersby on their way to the bathroom.

The crowd generally sides with the player, except for some of the other players at his table, some of whom want the game to resume, regardless of the strength of either side. Floor person calls for a pit critter, who is "on his way". It doesn't help that dealer and floor are both barely literate in English, generally not in control and, of course, with absolutely NO authority to make even the lowest level of decision without upper management approval.

Three pit bosses arrive. Argument continues. The player refuses to back down, wants to see a written copy of the rules. Someone in the crowd mentions that there were table cards available when the game was first introduced, so show "us" a card. Senior pit boss, who at least exudes some sense of responsibility, and speaks English, denies there ever were such cards. Crowd mutters a bit about that, but still, generally amiable. The player remains calm, but firmly insists he is entitled to see, in writing, something that states clearly that there are no over-lapping or duplicate rewards available.

The lack of additional heat, thrown drinks, belligerence, or other entertainment, the crowd disperses, and a few minutes later player and senior pit boss take a walk, together. A few minutes later the player returns and reports that he got $200 in total - $75 for the first match, $100 for the second, and $25 for his trouble.

This should have been the end of it, except that a couple of hours later it happens again, at a different table. Same cards - two pair, all black. There are enough players at the second table who witnessed the first outcome to insist on the same result for this guy - who wasn't there for Round 1. Same floor guy calls for a pit boss, and this one at first refuses, but then HE makes a call, and yes, player #2 gets $175. No $25 inconvenience payout. This pit boss reports that there were three other situations "just like this, just tonight" that got paid out the same way.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 21st, 2015 at 12:28:37 PM permalink
I'm holding one of those cards in my hand at this very moment. The payout for two pair is $300 and same color is $100. The payouts appear on the card as they do on the table sign. There is no additional information on the card. I listed the payouts on page one of this thread.

Let's take it a step further. If the dealer has blackjack and the player does not make a hand, it pays $25 to everyone who had the $5 wager up. If a hand is made why not ask for the $25 plus the payout of the hand?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Paradigm
Paradigm
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 2226
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
March 21st, 2015 at 12:38:31 PM permalink
It is pretty standard for all table games that only the highest payout is awarded on a hand......if it isn't already stated that way in the rules filed with the State it will be relatively quickly along with a small sign on the tables that says players only receive highest payout. This is a minor glitch that will be easily cleared up as I doubt (but could be wrong) the game math contemplates multiple payouts on hands that hit two pay table events simultaneously.
racquet
racquet
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
March 21st, 2015 at 12:57:42 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

The payout for two pair is $300 and same color is $100.



My mistake, from memory of last night. It was one-pair and same-color: $100 and $75.


Quote: 1BB

If the dealer has blackjack and the player does not make a hand, it pays $25 to everyone who had the $5 wager up. If a hand is made why not ask for the $25 plus the payout of the hand?



The obvious next step of "any hand" also being lumped in to the calculation if this approach was to be used across the board did not escape someone last night. In fact, a royal flush in diamonds (the progressive) would also be "flush", "same color", and "straight" as well as "any hand". If you won the $250K progressive (last night's amount) you'd probably forgo arguing for the "any hand" payout at the same time.

Obviously the "one award only" rule either IS the way it's written up in the fine print, or SHOULD BE written up like that. It was only that guy's persistence and keeping a straight face, along with the middle management conceding the point, that won the day. And once the precedent had been set, there was no way NOT to pay it last night when it happened again.

But for sure there was a meeting this morning on this subject, and either the rule IS in effect, or WILL BE as of today.
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 21st, 2015 at 1:24:41 PM permalink
Agreed. As Paradigm said, it's an easy fix.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14264
Joined: May 21, 2013
March 21st, 2015 at 2:12:15 PM permalink
Yeah, if you get 4OAK or a FH on a hand, you don't also get a 3OAK payout. Should be highest payout only, and I'm surprised there's any controversy about it. For sure, the payout table was calculated on only highest payout, as that's industry standard.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
racquet
racquet
  • Threads: 50
  • Posts: 411
Joined: Dec 31, 2014
March 21st, 2015 at 7:17:38 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Should be highest payout only, and I'm surprised there's any controversy about it. For sure, the payout table was calculated on only highest payout, as that's industry standard.



I agree, and if the mid-level people who responded had had any backbone they would have (politely maybe) rebuffed the original player and moved on. Their mistake was in doing anything other than paying $100. My impression is that just like everywhere else nowadays, no one dares make a decision or sticks their neck out without approval from above. The logical and common sense answer would have been to just say (politely of course) "you're nuts, here's your $100, now play continues." But no one in management today has the balls to do that, so they paid both parts once, then did it again, and again. My impression is if they don't specifically make it official in some way - table cards - magic marker and duct tape - something - they will have to deal with it again.
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 22nd, 2015 at 12:45:51 PM permalink
I wonder if this player was a passer-by, or if it was some highly valued regular. If the latter, I can understand the walking on eggshells (even though I would still ultimately give the correct ruling). If the former, I go with the "Incorrect, play continues" response, and if the player makes a scene, he can be shown the exit

Incidentally, I routinely see players ask if they can get paid for both their straight and their flush on Pai Gow, but not once have I seen someone make a scene about it. And no, the "highest payout only" rule is not posted anywhere, though I'm sure it's in the SOPs.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
1BB
1BB
  • Threads: 18
  • Posts: 5339
Joined: Oct 10, 2011
March 22nd, 2015 at 12:52:40 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

I wonder if this player was a passer-by, or if it was some highly valued regular. If the latter, I can understand the walking on eggshells (even though I would still ultimately give the correct ruling). If the former, I go with the "Incorrect, play continues" response, and if the player makes a scene, he can be shown the exit

Incidentally, I routinely see players ask if they can get paid for both their straight and their flush on Pai Gow, but not once have I seen someone make a scene about it. And no, the "highest payout only" rule is not posted anywhere, though I'm sure it's in the SOPs.



It was in the $5 pit so probably no high value player. This pit has the only H17 tables in the entire casino. I think there are five of them. The $5 minimums are never increased.

They'll just add a sign clarifying the rules of the side bet.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
offTopic
offTopic
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 44
Joined: Dec 6, 2013
March 22nd, 2015 at 3:06:21 PM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

I wonder if this player was a passer-by, or if it was some highly valued regular. If the latter, I can understand the walking on eggshells (even though I would still ultimately give the correct ruling). If the former, I go with the "Incorrect, play continues" response, and if the player makes a scene, he can be shown the exit

Incidentally, I routinely see players ask if they can get paid for both their straight and their flush on Pai Gow, but not once have I seen someone make a scene about it. And no, the "highest payout only" rule is not posted anywhere, though I'm sure it's in the SOPs.



I had the reverse situation occur in Reno. One player had a straight flush and another had a royal in the same hand (neither was me, unfortunately) and I said, "Sweet! I get $70 for the Envy!" Dealer said she was pretty sure only the highest would be paid and floor said he had to check and made a phone call WTF. (All envious players did eventually get both bonuses but I thought it was ridiculous that that wouldn't be the case).
Deucekies
Deucekies 
  • Threads: 57
  • Posts: 1423
Joined: Jan 20, 2014
March 22nd, 2015 at 3:46:24 PM permalink
Quote: offTopic

I had the reverse situation occur in Reno. One player had a straight flush and another had a royal in the same hand (neither was me, unfortunately) and I said, "Sweet! I get $70 for the Envy!" Dealer said she was pretty sure only the highest would be paid and floor said he had to check and made a phone call WTF. (All envious players did eventually get both bonuses but I thought it was ridiculous that that wouldn't be the case).


We had a similar discussion once. We had always paid all the envies, but we had one pit boss who insisted that only the highest one would get paid. After double-checking the SOPs, we confirmed that all envies paid.

It's possible he was misinterpreting a posted rule on Texas Shootout. On that game, the signage actually stipulates that only the highest payout per hand is awarded. He likely interpreted that to pertain to envies as well.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Paradigm
Paradigm
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 2226
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
March 22nd, 2015 at 3:57:41 PM permalink
Intuitively to me, Envy bets are different in that the two pays are coming from two separate other player hands (as opposed one hand containing two pay events).
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
  • Threads: 100
  • Posts: 14264
Joined: May 21, 2013
March 23rd, 2015 at 10:19:48 AM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Intuitively to me, Envy bets are different in that the two pays are coming from two separate other player hands (as opposed one hand containing two pay events).



+1.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
  • Jump to: