tRUTHeXPOSER
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December 25th, 2023 at 10:43:26 AM permalink
We were just getting into the game, everyone focused on their cards. That's when I noticed something really odd as I looked by the flop under the dealers hand. The cards... they weren't all the same color. Some were green, and some were red. It was so bizarre...

As soon as I pointed it out, everything stopped. The game came to a screeching halt.

They called over the floor manager, who seemed as surprised as we were. They had to cancel the entire hand and start over and they gave everyone the $80 they called with (4 ppl in hand) back... It was like a scene straight out of a high-stakes drama!

They said the shuffle master deckmate "malfunctioned" and mixed the decks up..

This got me thinking...What if this sort of thing happens more often than we think?

I mean, in other casinos, all the cards look the same, right? How would anyone ever know if they got mixed up? It’s a bit scary to think about. Are we really playing a fair game, or is there something more going on behind the scenes?

Walking out of the casino, my mind was racing. With all the advanced technology they have now, it’s hard to shake off the feeling that maybe, just maybe, we’re all part of some elaborate game controlled by the casino. It’s like the digital age has brought a whole new level to gambling that we’re just not aware of.
MDawg
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December 25th, 2023 at 10:52:44 AM permalink
Or, this never happened and you're just trying to make some kind of point that has nothing to do with what happened allegedly.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
tRUTHeXPOSER
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December 25th, 2023 at 10:55:19 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

Or, this never happened and you're just trying to make some kind of point that has nothing to do with what happened allegedly.
link to original post



Definitely happened! I wouldn't go out of my way to make a random story about this...

I have 3 other witnesses phone number if you need them they were playing with me and at the table! Dm if you need them!
billryan
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December 25th, 2023 at 10:59:57 AM permalink
Merry Christmas, one and all!
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
SOOPOO
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December 25th, 2023 at 11:01:52 AM permalink
I’m not saying technology doesn’t exist that will cheat the players. But how many people would need to be involved with n such a scheme that would ALL never say a word? So barring any real evidence, this sounds more like a malfunction/mistake than a cheating attempt by the casino.
billryan
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December 25th, 2023 at 11:14:38 AM permalink
They were Christmas Cards.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
MDawg
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December 25th, 2023 at 11:24:42 AM permalink
In any case, I'm not aware of any way that even side by side shuffle masters may "mix" their cards. This was a multi deck game? The way that works is a sealed package of decks comes pre shuffled from a company, is opened via a paper pre cut jagged strip, and then fed into the machine. I am aware of at least one time at a major Vegas Strip casino where the cards came out of that sealed paper box not shuffled at all.

It stands to reason that a mistake could be made where at the pre-shuffling factory, cards of two different colors could have been fed and sealed into the pre shuffled box. That sort of thing makes a lot more sense than that a shuffle master machine shuffled up anything other than what had been fed into it.

So then the pit boss just unzipped a package of cards, didn't realize that the package consisted of decks of two colors, and fed the stack of cards into the machine for shuffle.

If it was a single deck game, then it becomes sketchier as to how the cards could be packaged in that state, but still seems more likely than that two separate machines somehow reached out and grabbed cards from each other.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
Dieter
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December 25th, 2023 at 11:58:09 AM permalink
The vast majority of casinos I've been to use a group of single deck packs in factory new deck order. Tucks are opened, superfluous cards like jokers and premiums are removed (usually set aside in the tucks), the decks are washed and loaded as a batch into a shuffler (or hand shuffled).

I can't see an advantage to using factory shuffled bricks at most of the quotidian tables. Maybe at $100+ minimum baccarat where the cards are played once and retired. Maybe.


Now, with all that said, it seems quite unusual to have cards with non-matching backs in play. I didn't see (or maybe was just too numbskulled to remember) which game this is.
Based on the following points, I am guessing this is a poker game in the casino's poker room. "Flop", "deckmate".
My instinct tells me to suspect the other players of shenanigans before the dealer or the house.
May the cards fall in your favor.
MDawg
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December 25th, 2023 at 12:15:53 PM permalink
I have written before about the shuffle procedures at different casinos.

I also play blackjack at a casino where no shuffle machine or pre shuffled cards are used at all, it's old school. At that casino the two brand new decks are simply taken out of the package and the dealer proceeds to hand shuffle them and then deal. The shuffling does involve some mixing of the cards too, but no washing.

I haven't seen the washing of cards at any table game for years now.

Quote: MDawg

This is the way it works at different casinos:

1. At some casinos the cards are preshuffled at a shuffling factory, unzipped from the cardboard box, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

2. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are placed into a shufflemaster type machine for further shuffling, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

3. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are given one additional manual shuffle by the dealer, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

4. At no casino I play at is this done (all casinos I play at as far as I have observed receive preshuffled cards from either the factory or shuffled by hand by the dealers in a room and zip tie locked into a crystal box), but I assume there must be some casinos like this out there, where:
the cards are not preshuffled at a factory (or by dealers not on the floor), and are simply placed in the shufflemaster machine for all shuffling, then either shuffled one more time manually or not, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

In all cases the player is allowed to cut the cards, and there is a burn of card(s), before play commences at the table.
link to original post


I assume the reason (4) has fallen out of favor at multi deck games is precisely to avoid the sort of thing the OP describes, the pit boss' sticking decks of different colors into the machine. These factories where nothing is done but shuffling and pre packaging cards the chance for error is much lower than if a pit boss has to keep handling individual stacks of decks of cards of different colors all day long and sticking more than one deck into a machine before activating it.

In all of the procedures I describe above the extra shuffle is done after the machine does its thing - the cards that come out of the pre shuffled packages aren't examined closely before sticking them in.
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
RuddyDuck
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December 25th, 2023 at 12:17:13 PM permalink
Is there going to be a part two where you tell us when you caught them scamming?
MDawg
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December 25th, 2023 at 12:33:43 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I didn't see (or maybe was just too numbskulled to remember) which game this is.
Based on the following points, I am guessing this is a poker game in the casino's poker room. "Flop", "deckmate".
link to original post


Quote: tRUTHeXPOSER

We were just getting into the game, everyone focused on their cards. That's when I noticed something really odd as I looked by the flop under the dealers hand. The cards... they weren't all the same color. Some were green, and some were red. It was so bizarre...
link to original post


The description doesn't immediately lend itself to what game this supposedly was. Some kind of poker maybe, maybe a table game, maybe in the poker room, but "I looked by the flop under the dealers hand" describing a dealer's hand seems to describe a table game, as in players against the dealer. Unless he meant "dealer's hand" literally, in which case it could be a poker room game of just players vs. players.

But "everyone focused on their cards" seemed a little incongruous with the rest of the description.

Which is part of why I questioned the whole thing. And now we have two all-new WOV members posting in one day, zeroed in on one new thread....
I tell you it’s wonderful to be here, man. I don’t give a damn who wins or loses. It’s just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
billryan
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December 25th, 2023 at 12:39:05 PM permalink
Kiddies playing with their new computer?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Zcore13
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December 25th, 2023 at 10:12:28 PM permalink
Human error. The dealer either left some cards in the shuffler or left some in the discard rack and didn't notice. It happens once in a long while. The machine did not malfu action, even though they might say that.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Deucekies
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December 26th, 2023 at 3:22:30 PM permalink
By the way, this is the exact reason why casinos used cards with different color backs. So if decks get intermingled, you know it.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Hunterhill
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December 26th, 2023 at 4:43:17 PM permalink
There were casinos in France that dealt blackjack from a shoe with red and blue decks mixed together.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
olazhuravkous
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December 29th, 2023 at 5:44:51 AM permalink
The incident you experienced raises valid concerns about the integrity of casino games and the potential for technological glitches. While such occurrences are rare, they highlight the dependence on advanced systems like shuffle masters. The transparency and fairness of games are crucial, and casinos must invest in robust technologies to maintain trust. It's a reminder to stay vigilant and for casinos to prioritize regular equipment checks. While technology enhances gaming, the fine balance between innovation and ensuring a fair playing field is crucial for maintaining players' confidence in the digital age of gambling.
Gingers have no soul
TigerWu
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December 29th, 2023 at 7:22:59 AM permalink
Your title says the casino was "scamming," but your story describes a computer malfunction. What was the scam?

Furthermore, who is the casino scamming? The players in casino poker are playing against each other. The casino has no stake in the game. For this to be a scam, one (or more) of the players would have to have somehow introduced a rigged shuffle machine into the casino without their knowledge, and even then he would have to know exactly how and when the rigged machine would adjust the cards to his advantage, and on top of all that, he would have to hope no one would immediately notice two different-colored decks of cards in play at the same time, which is exactly what happened, thereby rendering this incredibly complicated scam immediately worthless.
billryan
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December 29th, 2023 at 7:49:09 AM permalink
The casino went out of its way to have unique red and green cards for Christmas, and all they got for their effort was grief. This is just another example of why we can't have nice things. There is always a hater trying to make a name for themselves on the interweb.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
RuddyDuck
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January 3rd, 2024 at 8:29:29 AM permalink
I have seen improper decks put into play multiple times, either short cards or mixed with the second color. After some complaining, net losses while the deck was in play were always returned to me. The earlier you catch it and the later the casino catches it may determined how well you do that session. I haven't seen this occur at a tribal casino so I imagine your experience could vary.
Wizard
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January 3rd, 2024 at 12:12:42 PM permalink
Quote: olazhuravkous

The incident you experienced raises valid concerns about the integrity of casino games and the potential for technological glitches. While such occurrences are rare, they highlight the dependence on advanced systems like shuffle masters. The transparency and fairness of games are crucial, and casinos must invest in robust technologies to maintain trust. It's a reminder to stay vigilant and for casinos to prioritize regular equipment checks. While technology enhances gaming, the fine balance between innovation and ensuring a fair playing field is crucial for maintaining players' confidence in the digital age of gambling.
link to original post



Welcome to the forum. As a random check for a soul, can you tell me how many gallons are in two gallons?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
SOOPOO
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January 3rd, 2024 at 1:10:32 PM permalink
Quote: RuddyDuck

I have seen improper decks put into play multiple times, either short cards or mixed with the second color. After some complaining, net losses while the deck was in play were always returned to me. The earlier you catch it and the later the casino catches it may determined how well you do that session. I haven't seen this occur at a tribal casino so I imagine your experience could vary.
link to original post



I find this fascinating. Just to be clear, you are saying you sat down at a blackjack table, played for some period of time. Lost $$$$. And at some point you noticed a card was missing? And then you complained and said, I lost $$$$ during this session. Please refund me that money? And they did? And what about the people who won? I assume they just kept their winnings? And other losers at the table were also refunded their losses? How long did this process take? How did they refund your money….did the pit boss just reach into the rack and toss you some chips?

I can see a single hand being voided…. but not your story….
Mukke
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January 3rd, 2024 at 3:28:52 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Welcome to the forum. As a random check for a soul, can you tell me how many gallons are in two gallons?
link to original post



Thank you for the question. Since you had 3 gallons this morning and drank 2 liters last night. You now have 1 gallon left.
Hunterhill
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January 3rd, 2024 at 5:47:36 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: RuddyDuck

I have seen improper decks put into play multiple times, either short cards or mixed with the second color. After some complaining, net losses while the deck was in play were always returned to me. The earlier you catch it and the later the casino catches it may determined how well you do that session. I haven't seen this occur at a tribal casino so I imagine your experience could vary.
link to original post



I find this fascinating. Just to be clear, you are saying you sat down at a blackjack table, played for some period of time. Lost $$$$. And at some point you noticed a card was missing? And then you complained and said, I lost $$$$ during this session. Please refund me that money? And they did? And what about the people who won? I assume they just kept their winnings? And other losers at the table were also refunded their losses? How long did this process take? How did they refund your money….did the pit boss just reach into the rack and toss you some chips?

I can see a single hand being voided…. but not your story….
link to original post

Soopoo, I was playing Spanish 21 once and they had just opened the table. We played about half a shoe and a 10 showed . There are not supposed to be any 10s in Spanish 21. They tried to reconcile and pay back all the players what they had lost for the entire shoe.This was at a Tribal casino. It was a big deal and all the employees involved got in trouble with the gaming commission.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
SOOPOO
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January 3rd, 2024 at 6:28:29 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: RuddyDuck

I have seen improper decks put into play multiple times, either short cards or mixed with the second color. After some complaining, net losses while the deck was in play were always returned to me. The earlier you catch it and the later the casino catches it may determined how well you do that session. I haven't seen this occur at a tribal casino so I imagine your experience could vary.
link to original post



I find this fascinating. Just to be clear, you are saying you sat down at a blackjack table, played for some period of time. Lost $$$$. And at some point you noticed a card was missing? And then you complained and said, I lost $$$$ during this session. Please refund me that money? And they did? And what about the people who won? I assume they just kept their winnings? And other losers at the table were also refunded their losses? How long did this process take? How did they refund your money….did the pit boss just reach into the rack and toss you some chips?

I can see a single hand being voided…. but not your story….
link to original post

Soopoo, I was playing Spanish 21 once and they had just opened the table. We played about half a shoe and a 10 showed . There are not supposed to be any 10s in Spanish 21. They tried to reconcile and pay back all the players what they had lost for the entire shoe.This was at a Tribal casino. It was a big deal and all the employees involved got in trouble with the gaming commission.
link to original post



Yowza! I assume if you won you just kept the money? In my BJ days I’d often come with chips from another table and not know exactly how much I won or lost on a table. Did they go to the ‘eye in the sky’? How long did it take?

What is the standard way to open a Spanish 21 table? Does the pit boss open ‘regular’ decks and manually remove the tens?
Hunterhill
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January 3rd, 2024 at 7:05:34 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: RuddyDuck

I have seen improper decks put into play multiple times, either short cards or mixed with the second color. After some complaining, net losses while the deck was in play were always returned to me. The earlier you catch it and the later the casino catches it may determined how well you do that session. I haven't seen this occur at a tribal casino so I imagine your experience could vary.
link to original post



I find this fascinating. Just to be clear, you are saying you sat down at a blackjack table, played for some period of time. Lost $$$$. And at some point you noticed a card was missing? And then you complained and said, I lost $$$$ during this session. Please refund me that money? And they did? And what about the people who won? I assume they just kept their winnings? And other losers at the table were also refunded their losses? How long did this process take? How did they refund your money….did the pit boss just reach into the rack and toss you some chips?

I can see a single hand being voided…. but not your story….
link to original post

Soopoo, I was playing Spanish 21 once and they had just opened the table. We played about half a shoe and a 10 showed . There are not supposed to be any 10s in Spanish 21. They tried to reconcile and pay back all the players what they had lost for the entire shoe.This was at a Tribal casino. It was a big deal and all the employees involved got in trouble with the gaming commission.
link to original post



Yowza! I assume if you won you just kept the money? In my BJ days I’d often come with chips from another table and not know exactly how much I won or lost on a table. Did they go to the ‘eye in the sky’? How long did it take?

What is the standard way to open a Spanish 21 table? Does the pit boss open ‘regular’ decks and manually remove the tens?
link to original post

I don’t remember how they reconciled everything but it took around 30 minutes.
Yes they manually remove the tens and take a black marker and put a big x on the card and then put the tens and empty boxes in a plastic bag which is locked up until the next card change. That’s how it was done at my two local casinos.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
billryan
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January 4th, 2024 at 8:39:15 AM permalink
I was playing at the El Cortez when a passerby alerted the dealer there were cards on the floor. Somehow, two tens had fallen out. The Dragon Lady called no bets and pushed everyone's money back while they sorted the deck. It was missing the two cards. They offered us nothing.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
rsactuary
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January 4th, 2024 at 8:51:13 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

I was playing at the El Cortez when a passerby alerted the dealer there were cards on the floor. Somehow, two tens had fallen out. The Dragon Lady called no bets and pushed everyone's money back while they sorted the deck. It was missing the two cards. They offered us nothing.
link to original post



Was an automatic shuffler used on this table? or was it a hand shuffle?
billryan
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January 4th, 2024 at 9:31:41 AM permalink
Quote: rsactuary

Quote: billryan

I was playing at the El Cortez when a passerby alerted the dealer there were cards on the floor. Somehow, two tens had fallen out. The Dragon Lady called no bets and pushed everyone's money back while they sorted the deck. It was missing the two cards. They offered us nothing.
link to original post



Was an automatic shuffler used on this table? or was it a hand shuffle?
link to original post



They'd hand shuffle when a table opened or they brought in new cards but otherwise, it was an auto shuffle, not a CSM. It was a $3 DD table.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
rsactuary
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January 4th, 2024 at 9:55:56 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Quote: rsactuary

Quote: billryan

I was playing at the El Cortez when a passerby alerted the dealer there were cards on the floor. Somehow, two tens had fallen out. The Dragon Lady called no bets and pushed everyone's money back while they sorted the deck. It was missing the two cards. They offered us nothing.
link to original post



Was an automatic shuffler used on this table? or was it a hand shuffle?
link to original post



They'd hand shuffle when a table opened or they brought in new cards but otherwise, it was an auto shuffle, not a CSM. It was a $3 DD table.
link to original post



So I believe that the shuffler counts the cards each shuffle yes? So you probably didn't play with a short deck at all, otherwise shuffler would have errored out. So I'm not surprised they didn't offer you anything.
CORed
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January 4th, 2024 at 8:03:19 PM permalink
It wouldn't have been the machine that mixed them up, as only one deck (or multi-deck stack for blackjack) is put in the machine at the same time. When shuffling machines are used, every casino I've played in uses two decks (or mutti-deck stacks) with backs of different colors, precisely to prevent this sort of mix up. This was almost certainly a dealer error.
Krispy519
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January 5th, 2024 at 10:54:04 AM permalink
Certainly an "error", but any addition/substitution of cards would possibly only help if a player was in on the knowledge. Holding a pair of Aces and the flop is 3 more Aces would make for an interesting time. Does 5 of a kind beat a royal flush in texas hold'em?
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