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lml130
lml130
Joined: Feb 18, 2010
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January 27th, 2022 at 3:57:41 PM permalink
I was recently at a Caesars property playing LIR. Up until that point, for 20+ years, I completely believed in the randomness of the deal. However, when I witnessed the ShuffleMaster spit out a sorted and suited deck upon a deck change, I began to question everything. If it can do that for a deck change, then it can do whatever it wants and if it is linked to the casino's players card system or even the face identification system of the casino, our hands can be forced one way or another. Does anyone know better?
Dieter
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Dieter
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January 27th, 2022 at 5:29:51 PM permalink
I take it this was an i-Deal (possibly i-Deal plus) type shuffler?
May the cards fall in your favor.
100xOdds
100xOdds
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January 28th, 2022 at 6:57:28 AM permalink
Quote: lml130

I was recently at a Caesars property playing LIR. Up until that point, for 20+ years, I completely believed in the randomness of the deal. However, when I witnessed the ShuffleMaster spit out a sorted and suited deck upon a deck change, I began to question everything.

If it can do that for a deck change, then it can do whatever it wants and if it is linked to the casino's players card system or even the face identification system of the casino, our hands can be forced one way or another.
Does anyone know better?
link to original post

what is LIR?

and yes, all shufflers can read cards and sort.
ie: poker shufflers

on a cruise ship, dealer got a straight flush 2 hands in a row in Ultimate Texas Holdem.
thats why i now randomly sit out a hand every 15 min or so to throw the shuffler off.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
MDawg
MDawg
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January 28th, 2022 at 7:10:15 AM permalink
A shuffle master has "the ability to sort cards back to a suited deck."
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuffle-Master/Shufflers-and-Utilities/Single-Deck-Shufflers/DeckMate-2-7816

This machine
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/shuffle-master/shufflers-and-utilities/multi-deck-shufflers/mdx-18235
has "advanced shuffling technology [which] also eliminates edge sorting by randomly rotating the feeder elevator 180 degrees throughout the shuffle, to remove the chance of sorting the card edges in a predetermined way."

But none of them is able to sort cards in any particular way to make the player lose (or win), notwithstanding anecdotal claims (not referring to this thread) from low trustworthy online characters. If such a machine existed the casino industry would be risking its entire existence just to try to win more than they already do.

There are some very high rollers who insist on hand shuffles as they distrust the machines, but I don't think they win any more than high rollers who accept the shufflemasters as legitimate.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
ChumpChange
ChumpChange 
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January 28th, 2022 at 7:15:15 AM permalink
If the deck can be shuffled to make you lose, it can be shuffled to make you win. What is the difference?
kewlj
kewlj
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January 28th, 2022 at 8:18:23 AM permalink
Various Shufflemaster machines have been able to shuffle back into sequential order for a decade now. That means the technology is there to shuffle into any order that may be desired, Anyone arguing that it can't be done, is out of there mind. The technology is clearly there.

So those arguing against this are really arguing that it isn't being done, not that it can't be done. I have no idea where that faith is coming from based on this industry and its history.

Nevada Gaming is completely ill equipped to handle anything involving this or any other technology. They have neither the manpower, budget nor expertise. They can barely handle a complaint of underage gambling. And other jurisdictions even less equipped than Nevada. Any player spotting a problem or thinking there is a problem is on their own.
coachbelly
coachbelly
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:07:14 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

But none of them is able to sort cards in any particular way to make the player lose (or win)



Are the shuffled cards removed from the shuffle machine, and then placed into and dealt from a shoe?
MDawg
MDawg
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:33:01 AM permalink
This is the way it works at different casinos:

1. At some casinos the cards are preshuffled at a shuffling factory, unzipped from the cardboard box, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

2. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are placed into a shufflemaster type machine for further shuffling, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

3. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are given one additional manual shuffle by the dealer, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

4. At no casino I play at is this done (all casinos I play at as far as I have observed receive preshuffled cards from either the factory or shuffled by hand by the dealers in a room and zip tie locked into a crystal box), but I assume there must be some casinos like this out there, where:
the cards are not preshuffled at a factory (or by dealers not on the floor), and are simply placed in the shufflemaster machine for all shuffling, then either shuffled one more time manually or not, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

In all cases the player is allowed to cut the cards, and there is a burn of card(s), before play commences at the table.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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January 28th, 2022 at 9:55:44 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

This is the way it works at different casinos:

1. At some casinos the cards are preshuffled at a shuffling factory, unzipped from the cardboard box, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

2. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are placed into a shufflemaster type machine for further shuffling, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

3. At some casinos the preshuffled from the factory cards are given one additional manual shuffle by the dealer, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

4. At no casino I play at is this done (all casinos I play at as far as I have observed receive preshuffled cards from either the factory or shuffled by hand by the dealers in a room and zip tie locked into a crystal box), but I assume there must be some casinos like this out there, where:
the cards are not preshuffled at a factory (or by dealers not on the floor), and are simply placed in the shufflemaster machine for all shuffling, then either shuffled one more time manually or not, given to the player to cut, and then placed directly into the shoe to be dealt.

In all cases the player is allowed to cut the cards, and there is a burn of card(s), before play commences at the table.
link to original post



look at all this time and effort into trying to convince OP or anyone who reads this thread that what OP said has nothing to do with trust

OP is clearly smarter than you and even i can obviously deduce that.

first it needs to find the card and it does that by identifying the specific card.
Second it needs to place that card into an intermediate location in the ORDER that was picked by the manufacturer.
repeat

im sure its not as simple but the functionality to do those things are within the shuffler. basic functionality that is needed when cheating. whats the difference? trust.

This is clearly all of the effort that should be put into an answer. YES they can put the cards into ANY order they want. But they claim to do that "randomly".
coachbelly
coachbelly
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January 28th, 2022 at 10:04:37 AM permalink
Quote: MDawg

This is the way it works at different casinos:



Thank you for your prompt response.

The sequence of the shuffled cards cannot change once placed into the shoe.

What "order that may be desired" could cause the casino to win more than expectation?

Quote: kewlj

Various Shufflemaster machines have been able to shuffle back into sequential order for a decade now. That means the technology is there to shuffle into any order that may be desired



My understanding is, that in some of the table games mentioned earlier in the thread, the dealer removes packs of cards from the shuffler and distributes them to the players.

Is the deck continually shuffled while the packs are spit out, or does the shuffling stop when the first card(s) are removed?

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