What states CANNOT back you off of BJ?
All I do is flat bet.
I play perfect basic strategy with a cheat sheet.
I’ve gotten lucky over the last year and unfortunately it’s come to a head and I’ve been backed off of playing BJ at a few properties in Vegas.
Quote: PookkyDoes anyone know what states CANNOT back off a person from playing blackjack?
All I do is flat bet.
I play perfect basic strategy with a cheat sheet.
I’ve gotten lucky over the last year and unfortunately it’s come to a head and I’ve been backed off of playing BJ at a few properties in Vegas.
States that can't backoff, or bar card counters are New Jersey (Atlantic City) and one other state as far as I know. I think it might be Missouri, although I have never played there. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong. I believe that is it. Just the two.
So, if you are flat betting, you aren't playing with an advantage and they certainly shouldn't be backing you off. It is the spreading of bets that is the big tell. AND using basic strategy cards, what you call cheat sheets, is allowed. They sell them in most casino gift shops. I mean just the fact that you are using that should be an indication you aren't any kind of threat.
But that said, there are some really sweaty casinos, that back off players that just randomly win, even though they aren't playing a winning game. In Las Vegas, El Cortez and Southpoint are two such casinos. There are others as well that are just overly paranoid. Can I ask what casinos backed you off? I mean if they are backing you off when you are not even spreading, then they just back off almost everyone so, naming the casino isn't going to identify you or anything.
Louisiana also passed a law several years ago but it is completely ignored and there is no enforcement, in cases where violations have been reported Louisiana law officers have stated it’s a civil matter and they’re not required to enforce it.
Quote: mcallister3200The other state is Missouri. They will just half-shoe, or deal one deck out of six, or change the table limits so the min and max bet are pretty much a flat bet. Louisiana also passed a law several years ago but it is completely ignored and there is no enforcement, in cases where violations have been reported Louisiana law officers have stated it’s a civil matter and they’re not required to enforce it.
Louisiana cops are so corrupt, it wasn’t a civil matter when they are asking for your id so they can hand it over to the casino.
Quote: PookkyDoes anyone know what states CANNOT back off a person from playing blackjack?
All I do is flat bet.
I play perfect basic strategy with a cheat sheet.
I’ve gotten lucky over the last year and unfortunately it’s come to a head and I’ve been backed off of playing BJ at a few properties in Vegas.
Few!? One is one. Couple is two. ‘Few’ is 3 at least. You are saying you have been ‘backed off’ from 3 separate Las Vegas casinos for playing Blackjack without altering your bet size?
Which casinos? What did the guy backing you off actually say? What $ amount were you flat betting? Do you play rated?
There has got to be more to this story.....
All Caesar properties in Vegas.
I flat bet table max, that’s all I do.
Was literally told:
“table games made the call, that you were perfect BJ strategy player and no real advantage to the casino on that game.”
Quote: SOOPOOFew!? One is one. Couple is two. ‘Few’ is 3 at least. You are saying you have been ‘backed off’ from 3 separate Las Vegas casinos for playing Blackjack without altering your bet size?
Which casinos? What did the guy backing you off actually say? What $ amount were you flat betting? Do you play rated?
There has got to be more to this story.....
Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Third time is enemy action.
Now, I have a pit friend that works one of the two big chains on the strip and he long ago told me that for players playing rated, there is a rating system, I forget exactly, I think it was like 4 tier, ranging from "poor player", "average", "basic strategy player" and "advantage player". Those weren't the actual tiers but something like that. And as a player gets rated good basic strategy player and advantage player, they receive less comps and offers, even down to no comps and offers, than a poor or average player playing the exact same limits and time. So that kind of thing happens or used to. Now-a-days they don't even give much for table game play until you are playing $50 and above tables, so that is probably not as big a deal.
A lot of players don't even realize that reduction or loss of comps and offers is one of the first counter measures. Also a lot of players don't realize that even when you play unrated as I do, they are still rating your play. They assign some sort of code name to you. It may be anything from a sports team logo you are wearing to even some identifying feature if you are a more regular player. That is why the pit will often ask a dealer what you bought in for, even when you are playing unrated. So playing unrated, doesn't stop them from rating that session. What it does do is stop them from putting together many past sessions like they would instantly have with a rated player.
"I'd start with making sure the terms used are being used properly. "Quote: onenickelmiraclePooky is not a troll 100% , I've known Pooky for years. The question itself doesn't quite make sense to me either, I'd start with making sure the terms used are being used properly.
Can you elaborate?
How much per hand?Quote: PookkyWynn
I flat bet table max, that’s all I do.
You said you were just lucky. Are you doing anything you aren't telling us that would have you playing with an advantage, like hole-carding or something?
Because it sound like they suspect something and probably put you in at least one of the databases for it to be several unrelated properties.
Quote: AxelWolfHow much per hand?
20k
Quote: kewljCan I ask what EXACTLY was said when you were backed off?
You said you were just lucky. Are you doing anything you aren't telling us that would have you playing with an advantage, like hole-carding or something?
Because it sound like they suspect something and probably put you in at least one of the databases for it to be several unrelated properties.
The back off was communicated by my host as I have a trip scheduled for this weekend, being CNY (Chinese New Year).
I also play high limit baccarat. Was told I could play anything else but BJ.
I do not do anything other than play 1 hand ever time flat bet table max and follow basic strategy.
Only time I ever go to 2 hands is if I lose like 4 hands in a row. And still flat bet.
I have poor vision and hearing so no chance at even trying to hole card or anything, I don’t bother.
I’ll actually flip a coin on border line situations like doubling down vs. hitting, splitting etc.
I literally flip a coin at the table.
Quote: PookkyWynn
LOL
I believe Pooky 100%.
That Kid from Arkansas (Matt Maddox) and his "girl-friend" from Taiwan (Linda Chen) are truly nuts!
Here in Macau they (try to) ban all basic strategy players too. Wynn still has a concession in Macau, believe it or not!
Do you bet the same at baccarat? Have they ever bothered you there?
I hope you find a place that values your play appropriately, and doesn’t sweat if you win or lose!
In regards to rules & high betting limits.
I don’t care if they use a continuous shuffling machine etc. as all I do is flat bet.
Quote: SOOPOO
Do you bet the same at baccarat? Have they ever bothered you there?
Yes, so far no.
Exception is Golden Nugget.
They sweat the money like no tomorrow.
Tillman Fertitta can go bankrupt for all I care.
I was tapped on the shoulder in the middle of a hot baccarat shoe. Nothing crazy, just a clear pattern of playing the chop.
Was told they would no longer book my action. That I could not play ANY table game. Even the carnival games AND if I played slots, that I wouldn’t earn any comps. Oh, and I had thousands of comp dollars and they wiped it out completely and left exactly .01 in there.
Must’ve been someone’s idea of a dig at me.
If they are going to give you heat for playing a -EV game you should just learn how to AP and get your revenge.Quote: PookkyYes, so far no.
Exception is Golden Nugget.
They sweat the money like no tomorrow.
Tillman Fertitta can go bankrupt for all I care.
I was tapped on the shoulder in the middle of a hot baccarat shoe. Nothing crazy, just a clear pattern of playing the chop.
Was told they would no longer book my action. That I could not play ANY table game. Even the carnival games AND if I played slots, that I wouldn’t earn any comps. Oh, and I had thousands of comp dollars and they wiped it out completely and left exactly .01 in there.
Must’ve been someone’s idea of a dig at me.
Quote: AxelWolfIf they are going to give you heat for playing a -EV game you should just learn how to AP and get your revenge.
To give you some background I was playing baccarat because Golden Nugget had already backed me off of playing BJ.
Again, was only flat betting and winning there.
Quote: PookkyTo give you some background I was playing baccarat because Golden Nugget had already backed me off of playing BJ.
Again, was only flat betting and winning there.
If all this story is true and there is no reason to believe the contrary.
You are flat betting $20K at table games and they back you off when you obviously do not show any sign or proof of advantage play...
The only thing I can think of is that they are afraid of the variance you can generate.
Look at it this way, for every 6 players BJ table they can fill, say at $50 min bets and about 60 rounds per hour. With poor players giving the casino say 1% advantage, this table is worth about $50 x 6 players x 60 rounds x 1% = $180/hour minus overhead like pit boss and dealer hourly wage, lights, etc.
Now, your $20K/hand play has a Standard Deviation of $23K or $230K per 100 rounds (say an hour).
If you play them for 9 hours in a weekend with 0.26% disadvantage.
Your expectation is to lose $46,800 with a Standard Deviation of $690,000
If you're only a "little lucky" and end up half a Standard Deviation from the mean to the right... You will win $298,200 of their money.
Not taking their overhead expenses into consideration, they will have to grind that 6 players table at $50 each for just a little over 1650 hours ....or 10 such tables for 165 hours each.
This is WHY they are afraid of you! Someone upstairs with a suit and a tie says "what if this guy wins $500K and never come back?" Five seconds later you can hear the sound of their knees shaking under the table.
This is however "little boss looking for short term results" fallacy. They certainly know they will win in the long run, but they prefer smoother results and good looking clean papers at the end of the week/month. This is the type of place that should just put a smaller max bet sign on their tables. Most joints like to show they are in... when obviously they are a bunch of losers.
Next place you go, just flat bet them for $5K, the comps will almost come at the same rate and they will be happy with the variance...
I think people on this forum give way to much credit to casino employees. Very few employees at casinos really understand gambling.
But otherwise, your thread is rather interesting. Assuming this story is true, nothing has been left out and there is not something else going on (such as suspected money laundering, playing as a front for money launderers, etc.), just send me a PM and I will hook you up with any number of my hosts who will welcome you to play both BJ and Baccarat at table limit flat bets, as long as you like, at the best casinos in Vegas.
In the very early 2000s, when blackjack limits for regular players were 5000 at most Vegas and Tahoe casinos, with some exceptions to 10000, and the table limit at Baccarat was 15000, I knew someone who wanted to play blackjack to 25000 a hand and this major Vegas strip casino let him - so long as he flat bet at 25000 every hand. He lost a lot. Recently, I asked my host at that same casino about this, and he said that "we don't flat bet anyone." I assume he meant that they will 86, but not impose flat betting, and this host is the top guy at that casino, in charge of not just all hosts but all player development, so he would know. The point being that flat betting is viewed as a handicap, and something with which players are penalized.
I am not surprised that the Golden Nugget is player unfriendly - ever since Tim and Tom sold it, it has gone majorly downhill in that respect, but I just can't see anyone being banned from Blackjack or especially from Baccarat for flat betting at table limit, absent some other issue.
Quote: MDawgFirst off Pookky, your question itself is meaningless, because in any state that has laws against banning you for counting cards, the casinos may still boot you for most any reason whatsoever. In other words, 86'ing remains alive and well at private establishments so long as it isn't based on some constitutionally protected bias (race, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, etc.).
But otherwise, your thread is rather interesting. Assuming this story is true, nothing has been left out and there is not something else going on (such as suspected money laundering, playing as a front for money launderers, etc.), just send me a PM and I will hook you up with any number of my hosts who will welcome you to play both BJ and Baccarat at table limit flat bets, as long as you like, at the best casinos in Vegas.
In the very early 2000s, when blackjack limits for regular players were 5000 at most Vegas and Tahoe casinos, with some exceptions to 10000, and the table limit at Baccarat was 15000, I knew someone who wanted to play blackjack to 25000 a hand and this major Vegas strip casino let him - so long as he flat bet at 25000 every hand. He lost a lot. Recently, I asked my host at that same casino about this, and he said that "we don't flat bet anyone." I assume he meant that they will 86, but not impose flat betting, and this host is the top guy at that casino, in charge of not just all hosts but all player development, so he would know. The point being that flat betting is viewed as a handicap, and something with which players are penalized.
I am not surprised that the Golden Nugget is player unfriendly - ever since Tim and Tom sold it, it has gone majorly downhill in that respect, but I just can't see anyone being banned from Blackjack or especially from Baccarat for flat betting at table limit, absent some other issue.
That's simply not true in the state of New Jersey
There must be a solid reason for any banishment from any establishment, not just Casinos. Any establishment open to the public has no right to kick someone out without cause
It's part of the trespassing statutes for the state and has been upheld, notably it's this very statute that is mentioned in Uston. With card counting not against the law or any gambling regulations, trespassing statute forbid Casinos from banning for card counting
This is how the New Jersey casinos get around Uston - by simply 86'ing anyone for any non discriminatory reason other than card counting. For example, they may just claim that the player was using some device or helpers. Or some other reason that has nothing to do with card counting.
Plus this Pookky guy obviously isn't counting cards anyway, so how would Uston apply to him? He's flat betting.
Quote: MDawgI'm not surprised that you don't understand how things work - but private establishments may ban anyone for any reason other than discriminatory ones. No one has a constitutional right to be in a casino. Good luck with trying to argue otherwise.
This is how the New Jersey casinos get around Uston - by simply 86'ing anyone for any non discriminatory reason other than card counting.
Plus this Pookky guy obviously isn't counting cards anyway, so how would Uston apply to him? He's flat betting.
I won't hire you as my lawyer, lol.
Statute. N.J.S.A 2C:18-3 section D) 2 says you are 1000% wrong.
D) It is an affirmative defense to (defiant trespass) prosecution...
2: the structure was at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions...
To be clear that means if I go into an establishment that is open the the public and I am not breaking any laws I have the right to say they can't trespass me.
I actually have gone through a trespass case in the state of NJ and when a casino security guard actually suggested what you just did, the prosecution even admitted that wasn't going to stand. (My case was dismissed)
So as much as you like to think you know what you are talking about in regards to what I know, you don't
And as well, this where your understand of the law, and its real world application, differ.
Plus keep in mind - that statute you quote refers to criminal trespass, and defenses to criminal trespass.
Quote: darkozI won't hire you as my lawyer, lol.
Statute. N.J.S.A 2C:18-3 section D) 2 says you are 1000% wrong.
D) It is an affirmative defense to (defiant trespass) prosecution...
2: the structure was at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions...
To be clear that means if I go into an establishment that is open the the public and I am not breaking any laws I have the right to say they can't trespass me.
I actually have gone through a trespass case in the state of NJ and when a casino security guard actually suggested what you just did, the prosecution even admitted that wasn't going to stand. (My case was dismissed)
So as much as you like to think you know what you are talking about in regards to what I know, you don't
And in any case, in the real world, they would come up with something to justify the boot.
Quote: MDawgWhat if some smelly bum walks in right off the bus? They can't immediately give him the boot? What casino rule is he breaking? You don't think they will come up with something?
And as well, this where your understand of the law, and its real world application, differ.
Plus keep in mind - that statute you quote refers to criminal trespass, and defenses to criminal trespass.
That's gonna be your argument to the judge?
Ignore the statute, just make a decision based on the "real world"
Lol, SMH!
EDIT: Wait, are you actually suggesting there is a non-criminal trespass?
Please point to non-criminal trespass statutes in the state of NJ.
(This gets better and better)
But even if these alternatives are not allowed, specifically in New Jersey, if there is statutory language, what about:
flat-betting
setting table maximum equal to table minimum
shuffling after every round
closing your table, and every table you might move to
These things don't prevent you from playing, but they will make any advantage play impossible. Are these things allowed?
Quote: MDawgGo back and learn the difference between civil and criminal. Then come back and talk.
There aren't any civil trespassing statutes in the state of NJ.
Point to one, just one.
If someone is trespassing who do you call?
It ain't the Ghostbusters.
It's the cops my Friend.
Guess what? They don't handle civil matters
Am I really explaining this to an attorney????
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2014/title-5/section-5-12-71.1/
Nothing in this section or in any other law of this State shall limit the right of a casino licensee to exercise its common law right to exclude or eject permanently from its casino hotel any person who DISRUPTS THE OPERATIONS OF ITS PREMISES
I am sure I could find more, but that came up instantly.
The point being, that if they want you out, they may find a way.
Quote: fantom'86ing, banning, trespassing, back-rooming, these are extreme measures that are pretty serious.
But even if these alternatives are not allowed, specifically in New Jersey, if there is statutory language, what about:
flat-betting
setting table maximum equal to table minimum
shuffling after every round
closing your table, and every table you might move to
These things don't prevent you from playing, but they will make any advantage play impossible. Are these things allowed?
The CCC has passed regulations that do allow those things but specifically for card counters.
I'm not certain if any Casino would do it for a flat bettor.
The OP is a flat bettor and not a counter
Quote: MDawgAs well, specifically with reference to DarkOz and how he uses other peoples' player cards in his AP scam:
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2014/title-5/section-5-12-71.1/
Nothing in this section or in any other law of this State shall limit the right of a casino licensee to exercise its common law right to exclude or eject permanently from its casino hotel any person who DISRUPTS THE OPERATIONS OF ITS PREMISES
I am sure I could find more, but that came up instantly.
The point being, that if they want you out, they may find a way.
You know I consider it lying if you leave out pertinent info.
You quoted the second half of the paragraph of that but not the first.
Here it is for you (I capitalized the relevant part you didn't seem to understand)
2014 New Jersey Revised Statutes
Title 5 - AMUSEMENTS, PUBLIC EXHIBITIONS AND MEETINGS
Section 5:12-71.1 - Exclusion, ejection of certain persons
Universal Citation: NJ Rev Stat § 5:12-71.1 (2014)
5:12-71.1. Exclusion, ejection of certain persons
40. A casino licensee may exclude or eject from its casino hotel any person WHO IS KNOWN TO IT TOO HAVE BEEN CONVICTED of a crime, disorderly persons offense, or petty disorderly persons offense committed in or on the premises of any casino hotel. Nothing in this section or in any other law of this State shall limit the right of a casino licensee to exercise its common law right to exclude or eject permanently from its casino hotel any person who DISRUPTS the operations of its premises, THREATENS the security of its premises or its occupants, or is DISORDERLY or INTOXICATED.
L.1993,c.292,s.40; amended 1995,c.18,s.18.
MDawg, please explain how you would tell the judge that card counting is drunk, DISORDERLY or a threat to Casino security
My opinion is right and your opinion is wrong!
The first sentence refers to one class of persons, with the conjunction OR in it, between the different classes. Then there is a period. The second sentence refers to a second class of persons, again with an OR in it. One class of persons from the second sentence, are those who disrupt the operations. You can't see how the wholesale misuse of their comp system to get comps for players who aren't physically present at the time that someone is running cards through to play, or cash out, or any such form of wholesale abuse of their comp system could not be easily construed as disrupting operations?
i.e. you don't have to be a convicted criminal, or additionally drunken, to satisfy the statute if they are able to claim mere disruption of operations. That stands on its own and is enough to warrant ejection, correct?
You also forget who would be using these statutes against such a person.
Such a person perhaps being..."The Most Feared AP on the East Coast."
A gold mine like Vegas breeds its own army, like any other gold mine. Hired muscle tends to accumulate in fast layers around money/power poles . . . and big money, in Vegas, is synonymous with the Power to protect it.
So once you get blacklisted on the Strip, for any reason at all, you either get out of town or retire to nurse your act along, on the cheap, in the shoddy limbo of North Vegas . . . out there with the gunsels, the hustlers, the drug cripples and all the other losers. North Vegas, for instance, is where you go if you need to score smack before midnight with no references.
Assuming that a casino could exclude or eject you for being whatever they wanted to call DISRUPTIVE, wouldn't you then need to bring some kind of action in court alleging that you were not DISRUPTIVE? Who's going to take it that far? You are not being cited such that you are being brought to court to face charges, you're just being tossed out.
Go ahead, says the casino. Sue us. They will probably have more funds to provide a defense, along with, I'd bet, enough prior experience to know exactly what to say should you sue such that you're not going to win.
Quote: fantomDISRUPTIVE would seem to me to be a very wide-ranging term.
Assuming that a casino could exclude or eject you for being whatever they wanted to call DISRUPTIVE, wouldn't you then need to bring some kind of action in court alleging that you were not DISRUPTIVE? Who's going to take it that far? You are not being cited such that you are being brought to court to face charges, you're just being tossed out.
Go ahead, says the casino. Sue us. They will probably have more funds to provide a defense, along with, I'd bet, enough prior experience to know exactly what to say should you sue such that you're not going to win.
Precisely.
More importantly, MDawg has changed his initial assertion.
Notice that just one page ago he claimed the casino could kick you out for ANY REASON.
Now, he pivoted to being disruptive.
So MDawg which is it?
Quote: MDawgI'm not surprised that you don't understand how things work - but private establishments may ban anyone for any reason other than discriminatory ones. No one has a constitutional right to be in a casino. Good luck with trying to argue otherwise.
Quote: fantomDISRUPTIVE would seem to me to be a very wide-ranging term.
Assuming that a casino could exclude or eject you for being whatever they wanted to call DISRUPTIVE, wouldn't you then need to bring some kind of action in court alleging that you were not DISRUPTIVE? Who's going to take it that far? You are not being cited such that you are being brought to court to face charges, you're just being tossed out.
Go ahead, says the casino. Sue us. They will probably have more funds to provide a defense, along with, I'd bet, enough prior experience to know exactly what to say should you sue such that you're not going to win.
Yes exactly. If a casino, or any private establishment wants you out, believe me they will find a way so long as it is not constitutionally discriminatory.
And a minute ago DarkOz was quoting defenses to criminal trespass and claiming that there are no civil statutes that could keep HIM (and his AP scheme operations) out.
Quote: MDawgYes exactly. If a casino, or any private establishment wants you out, believe me they will find a way so long as it is not constitutionally discriminatory.
And a minute ago DarkOz was quoting defenses to criminal trespass and claiming that there are no civil statutes that could keep HIM (and his AP scheme operations) out.
MDawg,
Perhaps we are arguing two different things.
If you are saying the Casinos will use an excuse that is not legally supported to evict someone and then figure they won't fight it in court, I agree that maybe true.
But that still doesn't give them the legal right. They simply are abusing the likely finances and determination to fight it in court.
It would also seem that you do agree the casinos cannot ban you for no reason. They have to have a substantive reason.
On the other hand, if you are truly just an innocent bystander who is unjustly being singled out, then press on. But if you are such a person, you don't NEED to be there. What's your purpose other than to make a purely theoretical point. You've suffered no real damages, you can only win by taking it to court, and winning will probably be expensive.
The casino is going to be much better at defending whatever they have done than you are going to be proving something else. Why bother?
Quote: MDawgWell yes, I am mostly saying that if they want you out they may find some excuse.
Well, I suppose that's true of anything.
Someone will find a way to violate the law and hope their deeper pockets protects them.
That's why it's up to people to fight in court.
I have been considering fighting my trespassing from two Casinos in AC for multiple card use as I believe they were unlawful as defined by the statutes as well as past precedent.
But is it worth my time, energy and money?
I took it as far as a free consultation with an attorney who was willing to represent. Then Covid hit so it's on my back burner for now.
On the other hand, this guy Pookky, if indeed all he is doing is flat betting and not money laundering or any other such untoward activity, may be in more of a position, in some states anyway, to fight for his right to lose money. But looking for states that have no laws against card counting doesn't mean that casinos in such states can't still boot him for basically no reason, and get away with it.
But getting back to what I said originally, if indeed there is nothing more to this story than simple flat betting, Pookky send me a PM and I will hook you up with my hosts and they will welcome you with open arms.
