Do you think DI is possible?
Poll
 | 8 votes (25.8%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.22%) | ||
| | 1 vote (3.22%) | ||
| | 3 votes (9.67%) | ||
| | 18 votes (58.06%) |
31 members have voted
Anyway, the threads on this topic inspired a lot of passion on all sides of the debate, but I also thought there was confusion about what level of DI people were attacking or defending. So I created this poll where people could vote whether you believed in any level of DI. Choices are based on what I read in the various threads.
That being said, I did it about 1 in 5 practice shoots, under ideal conditions. It would take a lot to do it under casino conditions.
Both being said, you need only reduce the chances of a 7 from 1 in 6 to 1 in 7 to flip the odds to a PASS player.
This is a grind. The "Breaking Vegas" show where the guy throws a 12 on command is ********. It does not work that way.
"MAYBE" is the answer. I doubt 1% of the population could do it to any effect at all.
Quote: unJonI have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.
Try the financial results of the game of craps at the various casino's around the world. If that doesn't convince you, do as often? suggested, try and drop a pair of actual casino dice from three inches above a table with a felt on it and then ask yourself...If I can't influence the outcomes simply by dropping the dice three inches how could I possibly do it throwing them down a table?...Cheers mate.
Quote: unJonI am hugely skeptical myself, though I have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.
unjon, I think you said the right words to avoid an avalanche of posts declaring the impossibility of DI. Well done on your part.
Based on my experience, I have to say it's possible, but probably not possible on a consistent basis by most craps players, myself included.
About 15 years ago I had as an acquaintance in NYC who worked weekends doing sports broadcasting. He would frequently go to Atlantic City on a mid-week day with the intention of winning $500 from each of 10 casinos, and he was often successful. The loss was small enough that it never became a problem with the casinos (although he reported that they quickly stopped his comp offers). And, he purchased condo in Aruba that he bought with his winnings. He called casinos his personal ATMs. I have no doubt he was successful in his DI efforts.
If folks assert all swans are white, do I only have to find one black swan to assert other possibilities? I say yes, but others may disagree. YMMV, don'cher know?
So, why do I think there may be something to it now? Because the idiots seem to always 7 right out.. so although they are trying to hit numbers, they are actually rolling 7s. Hmmm....
It happened again this morning. I rolled up to the table (no pun intended). I put my money across the board and watched the shooter play with the dice for 3 minutes before even starting the throwing motion. I immediately went 'off' on my bets before he even rolled . Of course , he 7 out right away. Some things you just cant teach.
I waited 2 shooters until I got the dice. I picked them up and rolled them the way I do... first roll 6, second roll, 6, third roll 10.... at this point I would normally go off and walk away, but since I had the dice and was feeling good, I pressed up the 5 and 9. Forth roll, 9. Pressed it again. Next roll 9. Now I took all my bets down and gave my pass line shot to the guy next to me and I walked away in the middle of my shoot. Thats how its done boys! Chalk up another W.
Quote: NokTangTry the financial results of the game of craps at the various casino's around the world. If that doesn't convince you, do as often? suggested, try and drop a pair of actual casino dice from three inches above a table with a felt on it and then ask yourself...If I can't influence the outcomes simply by dropping the dice three inches how could I possibly do it throwing them down a table?...Cheers mate.
Thanks, NokTang. I made dropping the dice 3” one of the poll choices in honor of your position in the threads I read here.
Quit reading about it and Just go watch a slow-motion video.Quote: unJonI have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.
Go read Dicesitter's many posts and watch his tosses, IIRC they are also in slow motion(He's a diehard DI advocate). He has by far the best LOOKING consistent shot I have seen. No doubt that's due to the fact that he has a craps table and has been practicing for years many hours a day.
One time he said, "I break even or make a little money each year." If one of the best admits to making a little money or breaking even, then I think we have a major problem.
Let me know when the DI schools start telling people that you will need your own table with years of practice before you have a chance to break even or make a little money.
DI=one of the best cons ever. It seems like its possible, the game can be fun, relatively low house edge, the variance can fool many people. If your not winning its because YOU are doing somthing wrong(time for some more classes)
Quote: lilredroosterthis doesn't prove anything either way but it's fun to watch.
Anyone could film themselves rolling randomly, then put the voice in afterward to make it look like they were calling their shots
Is it worth the trouble? For 99.9% of people, no.
Maybe it seems like it should be possible but there should be convincing stats, and there aren’t. Just anecdotal stuff about some long rolls, which is probably just normal variance.
And obviously the casinos would never allow it if they thought there was any chance of advantage play. They would hand you the dice and you must instantly throw without setting on the table. Look how overboard they go trying to stop a relatively few successful card counters.
Or Bats 600 in baseball. All these casinos, all the people who bet you can't do it, idiotic comments on DI schools, etc, Work on invisibility, once you master that, you can influence the dice.
Quote: FleaStiffit does not matter what you believe or what you have observed, just pay my $650.00 seminar tuition and pay my $800.00 an hour consultancy fees until I make a believer out of you.
Do you accept Paypal ??
Scoblete wouldn't be pulling our collective chain now, would he?
There's a photo of a group of dice controllers controlling dem bones.
What more proof do you need?
Did see one recent video, by a system seller/dice instructor demonstrating his ‘winning craps betting strategy’, who before he began shooting, said his set produced ‘a lot of hardways’. Then he proceeded to throw six hard ways, one aces, and a 12, in 25 rolls.
But this I know for sure - Anyone who says they can do it, can not do it.
Quote: WatchMeWinThere is a simple concept t a book that would get the casinos upset and that is telling everyone to leave the tables after they are up a small percentage... and not look to make 5000 percent every time they walk into a casino. This simple concept would destroy the industry. Luckily for the casinos, 99% of people that gamble do not have the discipline, knowledge, or control to do so.
That is a strategy mathematically doomed to fail in the long run.
Stop loss / stop win points only delay the inevitable.
Quote: WatchMeWinThere is a simple concept t a book that would get the casinos upset and that is telling everyone to leave the tables after they are up a small percentage... and not look to make 5000 percent every time they walk into a casino. This simple concept would destroy the industry. Luckily for the casinos, 99% of people that gamble do not have the discipline, knowledge, or control to do so.
Of course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.
Quote: FinsRuleOf course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.
I would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.
Quote: WatchMeWinI would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.
You think “sessions” are a thing.
Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.
Quote: FinsRuleYou think “sessions” are a thing.
Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.
Here are simple mathematics for you to calculate and ponder over before you decide to provoke me with a first blow again next time.
You are hiding in your basement from your wife eating pizza worrying about paying your next bill because you either mismanage money or haven't had the aptitude to make enough money through either gaming for work or whatever.
On the other side of the equation, I I'm living a pretty darn good life and nothing was ever handed to me. I do what I want, when I want, and where I want . I took -400k debt 15 years ago with no ability to get a loan or have anyone hand me anything... and I have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it. That is why I don't play any other games except poker.
Going out to play 9 holes now then a nice big fat steak dinner with my Wall Street Buddies. Enjoy your pizza!
Surprised you aren’t at work today.
I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.
If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.
Quote: FinsRuleI’m a vegetarian, and “Wall Street buddies” aren’t my thing.
Surprised you aren’t at work today.
I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.
If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.
Lets Nip this in the butt here.. All good. Family always first. Take care of your wife and kid. And for the record, I don't like having a big bankroll for playing craps, I like having a big bankroll to do whatever the heck I like. It's not money that I love, it's the things that money can buy that I love!
And they say money can't buy love. I don't want to go into that argument but I can tell you that lack of money can sure by misery.
Quote: WatchMeWinI would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.
You forgot to tell him to drink Gatorade in order to maintain electrolyte levels.
In a typical year, I probably make about 4-5 casino trips. If I am driving an hour to Horseshoe Hammond with $500, and I hit a straight flush in Pai Gow on the first hand, I probably should just leave. But, I didn’t just go to make money. I went to hang out with my friends and relax for a while. So I’ll end up losing that 250 back throughout the rest of the day and end up even.
But I’m a recreational casino gambler. (Horses are different)
I guess what I’m saying is that everyone comes from a different place, and I understand that, and I think you do too.
Quote: WatchMeWinI have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it.
I recognize the possibility that you could make good money playing poker, as it is a game of skill: maybe you have the skill.
Craps however is NOT a game of skill.
DI is a nonexistent fallacy.
Your continuing claims of mastery at the craps table are rejected by me as the ravings of someone seeking attention, validation, and respect.
Sorry, Charlie.
"Alive and Kicking"
...What you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?
What you gonna do when the love burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?
Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?
Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Who's gonna save you?...
Quote: WizardofDiceYes, DI is fact not fiction and not completely random.
I agree. So do my friends Easter Bunny & Santa Claus.
Quote: FinsRuleOf course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.
Quote: WatchMeWinI would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.
Quote: FinsRuleYou think “sessions” are a thing.
Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.
Quote: WatchMeWinHere are simple mathematics for you to calculate and ponder over before you decide to provoke me with a first blow again next time.
You are hiding in your basement from your wife eating pizza worrying about paying your next bill because you either mismanage money or haven't had the aptitude to make enough money through either gaming for work or whatever.
On the other side of the equation, I I'm living a pretty darn good life and nothing was ever handed to me. I do what I want, when I want, and where I want . I took -400k debt 15 years ago with no ability to get a loan or have anyone hand me anything... and I have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it. That is why I don't play any other games except poker.
Going out to play 9 holes now then a nice big fat steak dinner with my Wall Street Buddies. Enjoy your pizza!
Quote: FinsRuleI’m a vegetarian, and “Wall Street buddies” aren’t my thing.
Surprised you aren’t at work today.
I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.
If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.
Quote: WatchMeWinLets Nip this in the butt here.. All good. Family always first. Take care of your wife and kid. And for the record, I don't like having a big bankroll for playing craps, I like having a big bankroll to do whatever the heck I like. It's not money that I love, it's the things that money can buy that I love!
And they say money can't buy love. I don't want to go into that argument but I can tell you that lack of money can sure by misery.
So, let's take this conversation in isolation from the thread. In, fact take 3 days to think about it.
Perhaps only "Simple Minds" can tell the difference between criticism or argument of a post, and a personal insult. You failed spectacularly, called him simple in a condescending tone, he said, let's take a vote (which still wasn't an insult though personally directed), and you got even snottier speculating about his personal life.
Then, after even YOU caught on that you had crossed the line, you tried to make it right but stopped short of an apology, which might have made this a warning, since YOU struck the first and all subsequent blows.
Attacking your methods as a system unsupported by the math or long-term, repeatable success is NOT a personal attack. It's the entire point of this website and forum to debunk systems, advise on the best games for the players, and swap information about different casinos, plays, game variations, etc.
Get used to the criticism you're going to receive (and have been receiving for months) for touting a -EV system. Every time you plug it, you're going to get pushback from the mathematically sound and expert players here. There are other forums where you can find fawning and unquestioning admirers if that's what you're after, but don't expect that kind of ignorance here.
Just wanted to add that it's "Nip this in the BUD", not "butt". The saying is about smart gardening, where you prune back many types of plants before they flower and weaken their system with too many blooms. Not about some chihuahua ruining your day.
Quote: WizardofDiceYes, DI is fact not fiction and not completely random.
Here we go. We got a fresh one...
ZCore13
He obviously did believe that some people can influence the dice but that is was very difficult and something few have mastered.
Written by: Michael Shackleford
/games/craps/appendix/3/
I'll preface this by saying I'm not one of the two gentlemen mentioned above. I'm not a troll or an author. Just an avid dice player.
My comments are subjective and based on my experience of over 50 years with dice, craps play and the many years of observing many others play craps including those who practice DI tossing. In addition I have never taken or paid for a class and probably don't know anyone on this board as I don't post much if any at all.
The subject itself came into vogue with certain books and programs that popularized this. Many had the misguidance that it would be their 'cash cow'. Many books, schools came about on this subject as we all know. The casinos for a while went to great strides to protect their bottom line. Then they realized that the various DI players coming in their joints using their newly learned AP DI 'voodoo magic' did not have practical importance and more than likely the wave of DI players enhanced that bottom line. (jmho)
There is a big difference between Thinking and Knowing. You have to Know, not Think you know.
The critics that reject belief, I care to not squabble with you, it is a waste of precious time. Discuss yes, argue no.
You can make light or jokes, but to that I say is narrow minded thinking and writing.
I've found that the majority of mental rejection on this subject as untrue is from those that have personal knowledge of DI players at the tables that perhaps are not very good at it and quite possibly don't know what they are doing.
In all the years of playing I have seen only a handful that have a true skill at DI that are very good or masterful.
The post from the OP was: Do you think DI is possible? with the accompanied poll
DI yes, DC no
Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.
-American Indian Proverb
Key words here is HE DID, as in past tense. And then he came to his scenes. He may not publicly say its impossible(that's lots of refunds one would have to give out).Quote: WizardofDice(Excerpt on Dice Setting Introduction of Stanford Wong)
He obviously did believe that some people can influence the dice but that is was very difficult and something few have mastered.
Written by: Michael Shackleford
/games/craps/appendix/3/
There are a handful of people who have tremendous looking shots, unfortunately, it doesn't ever change the odds.
Why is it that all other aspects of legit ways of beating casinos have been proven yet DI remains unproven after all these years?
ZCore13
Books and classes don't make a DI player.
Like most things in life in order to get better it takes a tremendous amount of effort and practice.
DI play is not for everyone. Those that slow down the game setting dice should quit doing it.
I think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom. There's probably video out there, but I would suspect they would be selling something. Video could be done in a private setting not sure it would fly in a live one.
For the number folks on here, I would think beating the probabilities is the only test. It would have to be done in a live setting, otherwise the data would be skewed in the DI's favor.
It's a physical game, the only one in which you have a hand in the outcome (pun intended), so don't you think you could influence?
It's not DC.
DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.
Not many players have the ability to do this without getting frustrated and there are an overwhelming amount of obstacles and distractions that hinder the ability to influence. So, they give up and ascertain that it's hocus pocus, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus thinking etc. and (if they play craps) they are always without a doubt your random rollers, playing the game of chance.
And that's a good thing.
A DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.
If they aren't setting in under a second or close to it, they aren't a DI player.
It's commonly known as a chance game and for the vast majority it is.
Winners never quit and quitters never win.
Let's say you find this guy with 1000's of hours of live practice and all the other qualities you mentioned. Other than that, how do you determine if he has an advantage?Quote: WizardofDiceDid Wong ever change his mind publicly? And of course it sells their books or classes, I didn't think of that and it was stated from many years ago on the Wizard's site. Perhaps updating the web site is in order if he did change his mind.
Books and classes don't make a DI player.
Like most things in life in order to get better it takes a tremendous amount of effort and practice.
DI play is not for everyone. Those that slow down the game setting dice should quit doing it.
I think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom. There's probably video out there, but I would suspect they would be selling something. Video could be done in a private setting not sure it would fly in a live one.
For the number folks on here, I would think beating the probabilities is the only test. It would have to be done in a live setting, otherwise the data would be skewed in the DI's favor.
It's a physical game, the only one in which you have a hand in the outcome (pun intended), so don't you think you could influence?
It's not DC.
DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.
Not many players have the ability to do this without getting frustrated and there are an overwhelming amount of obstacles and distractions that hinder the ability to influence. So, they give up and ascertain that it's hocus pocus, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus thinking etc. and (if they play craps) they are always without a doubt your random rollers, playing the game of chance.
And that's a good thing.
A DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.
If they aren't setting in under a second or close to it, they aren't a DI player.
It's commonly known as a chance game and for the vast majority it is.
Winners never quit and quitters never win.
It seems to me a series of slow-motion video would show if there's any real influence. We have seen videos from people who own their own craps table with many hours of practice and once the dice it the table it looks like everyone else with a similar toss. These guys are desperately trying to prove DI works, so why can't they?
The only people who remain in the DI business are the guys who make money from all the other stuff.
Quote: WizardofDice
DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.
NO. BABBLE. BLATHER. No human can influence the random outcome that rolling two dice under casino rules allows. CAN'T BE DONE.
SIMPLE.
Quote: WizardofDiceA DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.
OK, so the greatest DI in the world rolls dem bones.
As you say, "they hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot."
On this we agree.
Where we disagree, and where you shot yourself in the foot, is in concluding that someone somewhere somehow can overcome this conceded randomizing effect.
Can't be done; How could it?
High Hopes be damned
It only takes about 600 fps to truly see what is happening with the dies. Casio had a camera that would shoot 1000fps for around 300$.Quote: WizardofDiceI think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom.
You should rent or borrow a camera or find a way to see a few tosses with hi speed photography. Actually it would be great that you do so, before making to many claims here at the wov.
The dice are doing a lot of things that you can not see with the naked eye.
It is definitely a revealing learning tool/experience, and fun.
Jill takes a job at Burger King , works thousands of hours and saves it diligently.
Who has the brighter future?
Quote: petroglyph
You should rent or borrow a camera or find a way to see a few tosses with hi speed photography. Actually it would be great that you do so, before making to many claims here at the wov.
The dice are doing a lot of things that you can not see with the naked eye.
It is definitely a revealing learning tool/experience, and fun.
Indeed it is.
Here's some slo-mo DI pics
