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1 vote (3.22%)
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31 members have voted

unJon
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July 19th, 2018 at 5:50:09 AM permalink
I know I’m new to this site, so apologies if I am violating etiquette by starting a poll on this topic. I’ve read with interest over the last weeks the various threads on this site with people arguing over whether Dice Influencing is possible or not. Very entertaining. I am hugely skeptical myself, though I have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.

Anyway, the threads on this topic inspired a lot of passion on all sides of the debate, but I also thought there was confusion about what level of DI people were attacking or defending. So I created this poll where people could vote whether you believed in any level of DI. Choices are based on what I read in the various threads.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AZDuffman
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WizardofDice
July 19th, 2018 at 6:06:40 AM permalink
Under idea conditions it can partially be done. I have practiced a bit and you can just catch them where the back wall and lay meet, and if you do it just right they do not bounce as random.

That being said, I did it about 1 in 5 practice shoots, under ideal conditions. It would take a lot to do it under casino conditions.

Both being said, you need only reduce the chances of a 7 from 1 in 6 to 1 in 7 to flip the odds to a PASS player.

This is a grind. The "Breaking Vegas" show where the guy throws a 12 on command is ********. It does not work that way.

"MAYBE" is the answer. I doubt 1% of the population could do it to any effect at all.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
NokTang
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AxelWolf
July 19th, 2018 at 6:13:45 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

I have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.



Try the financial results of the game of craps at the various casino's around the world. If that doesn't convince you, do as often? suggested, try and drop a pair of actual casino dice from three inches above a table with a felt on it and then ask yourself...If I can't influence the outcomes simply by dropping the dice three inches how could I possibly do it throwing them down a table?...Cheers mate.
LuckyPhow
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July 19th, 2018 at 6:43:59 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

I am hugely skeptical myself, though I have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.



unjon, I think you said the right words to avoid an avalanche of posts declaring the impossibility of DI. Well done on your part.

Based on my experience, I have to say it's possible, but probably not possible on a consistent basis by most craps players, myself included.

About 15 years ago I had as an acquaintance in NYC who worked weekends doing sports broadcasting. He would frequently go to Atlantic City on a mid-week day with the intention of winning $500 from each of 10 casinos, and he was often successful. The loss was small enough that it never became a problem with the casinos (although he reported that they quickly stopped his comp offers). And, he purchased condo in Aruba that he bought with his winnings. He called casinos his personal ATMs. I have no doubt he was successful in his DI efforts.

If folks assert all swans are white, do I only have to find one black swan to assert other possibilities? I say yes, but others may disagree. YMMV, don'cher know?
WatchMeWin
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July 19th, 2018 at 6:55:14 AM permalink
Perhaps there is something to it, but not in the way that most people believe it to happen. As Ive stated many times , I dont believe in dice setting and cant stand when people take lots of time setting the dice and slowly rocking there throwing motion back and forth for a few times before slowly releasing the dice and then 7 out right away. Ive seen this rodeo thousands of times.

So, why do I think there may be something to it now? Because the idiots seem to always 7 right out.. so although they are trying to hit numbers, they are actually rolling 7s. Hmmm....

It happened again this morning. I rolled up to the table (no pun intended). I put my money across the board and watched the shooter play with the dice for 3 minutes before even starting the throwing motion. I immediately went 'off' on my bets before he even rolled . Of course , he 7 out right away. Some things you just cant teach.

I waited 2 shooters until I got the dice. I picked them up and rolled them the way I do... first roll 6, second roll, 6, third roll 10.... at this point I would normally go off and walk away, but since I had the dice and was feeling good, I pressed up the 5 and 9. Forth roll, 9. Pressed it again. Next roll 9. Now I took all my bets down and gave my pass line shot to the guy next to me and I walked away in the middle of my shoot. Thats how its done boys! Chalk up another W.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
unJon
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July 19th, 2018 at 7:09:48 AM permalink
Quote: NokTang

Try the financial results of the game of craps at the various casino's around the world. If that doesn't convince you, do as often? suggested, try and drop a pair of actual casino dice from three inches above a table with a felt on it and then ask yourself...If I can't influence the outcomes simply by dropping the dice three inches how could I possibly do it throwing them down a table?...Cheers mate.



Thanks, NokTang. I made dropping the dice 3” one of the poll choices in honor of your position in the threads I read here.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
AxelWolf
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July 19th, 2018 at 7:18:42 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

I have not yet read anything to convince me that it is impossible.

Quit reading about it and Just go watch a slow-motion video.

Go read Dicesitter's many posts and watch his tosses, IIRC they are also in slow motion(He's a diehard DI advocate). He has by far the best LOOKING consistent shot I have seen. No doubt that's due to the fact that he has a craps table and has been practicing for years many hours a day.

One time he said, "I break even or make a little money each year." If one of the best admits to making a little money or breaking even, then I think we have a major problem.


Let me know when the DI schools start telling people that you will need your own table with years of practice before you have a chance to break even or make a little money.

DI=one of the best cons ever. It seems like its possible, the game can be fun, relatively low house edge, the variance can fool many people. If your not winning its because YOU are doing somthing wrong(time for some more classes)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TomG
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WizardofDice
July 19th, 2018 at 7:58:26 AM permalink
I absolutely think it is possible. For me, the best example throwing a knuckleball to get Major League hitters out. It is a far greater magic trick that throwing a seven either more often or less often than one-in-six. And yet there are people who do it. But it takes millions of people trying, then years of development, then only one or two reach the top level every decade. Imagine if there was the same pipeline for dice influence. Give anyone who demonstrates aptitude years of practice, coaching, college scholarships, and minor league contracts and we would see a few emerge with the ability to earn millions at a craps table.
lilredrooster
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July 19th, 2018 at 9:47:03 AM permalink
this doesn't prove anything either way but it's fun to watch. yeah, I know it's nothing like a craps table. still a lot of fun to see. sorry about the bad language
Please don't feed the trolls
TomG
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AxelWolf
July 19th, 2018 at 10:09:14 AM permalink
Quote: lilredrooster

this doesn't prove anything either way but it's fun to watch.



Anyone could film themselves rolling randomly, then put the voice in afterward to make it look like they were calling their shots
FinsRule
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WizardofDice
July 19th, 2018 at 10:20:26 AM permalink
I think if the best darts player in the world can do what they do, it is possible for a select few professionals to flip the tiny house edge to a tiny player edge.

Is it worth the trouble? For 99.9% of people, no.
FleaStiff
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July 19th, 2018 at 10:27:25 AM permalink
it does not matter what you believe or what you have observed, just pay my $650.00 seminar tuition and pay my $800.00 an hour consultancy fees until I make a believer out of you.
Ace2
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SOOPOO
July 19th, 2018 at 11:29:42 AM permalink
As far as I know no one has ever been able to demonstrate a statistically significant example of dice control.

Maybe it seems like it should be possible but there should be convincing stats, and there aren’t. Just anecdotal stuff about some long rolls, which is probably just normal variance.

And obviously the casinos would never allow it if they thought there was any chance of advantage play. They would hand you the dice and you must instantly throw without setting on the table. Look how overboard they go trying to stop a relatively few successful card counters.
It’s all about making that GTA
dogqck
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July 19th, 2018 at 12:44:30 PM permalink
Somebody is always comparing DI to a sport, usually Golf. Let me know when somebody shot a round of 18 PGA holes under 40.
Or Bats 600 in baseball. All these casinos, all the people who bet you can't do it, idiotic comments on DI schools, etc, Work on invisibility, once you master that, you can influence the dice.
dogqck
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July 19th, 2018 at 12:45:40 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

it does not matter what you believe or what you have observed, just pay my $650.00 seminar tuition and pay my $800.00 an hour consultancy fees until I make a believer out of you.



Do you accept Paypal ??
MrV
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July 19th, 2018 at 5:45:12 PM permalink
Of course it works.

Scoblete wouldn't be pulling our collective chain now, would he?



There's a photo of a group of dice controllers controlling dem bones.

What more proof do you need?
Last edited by: MrV on Jul 19, 2018
"What, me worry?"
lilredrooster
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July 20th, 2018 at 1:49:42 AM permalink
the author is a Ph.D. what more proof could you want?
Last edited by: lilredrooster on Jul 20, 2018
Please don't feed the trolls
Tanko
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July 20th, 2018 at 4:27:06 AM permalink
Doesn’t work, but no harm in trying. Some players appreciate it. Gives them hope, and adds to the entertainment and suspense, when a roll goes longer than expected.

Did see one recent video, by a system seller/dice instructor demonstrating his ‘winning craps betting strategy’, who before he began shooting, said his set produced ‘a lot of hardways’. Then he proceeded to throw six hard ways, one aces, and a 12, in 25 rolls.
FinsRule
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July 20th, 2018 at 5:22:08 AM permalink
I said before that I think it's possible that a few people in the world could possibly do it.

But this I know for sure - Anyone who says they can do it, can not do it.
WatchMeWin
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WizardofDice
July 20th, 2018 at 7:41:06 AM permalink
There is a simple concept t a book that would get the casinos upset and that is telling everyone to leave the tables after they are up a small percentage... and not look to make 5000 percent every time they walk into a casino. This simple concept would destroy the industry. Luckily for the casinos, 99% of people that gamble do not have the discipline, knowledge, or control to do so.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
MrV
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mipletTomG
July 20th, 2018 at 8:37:18 AM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

There is a simple concept t a book that would get the casinos upset and that is telling everyone to leave the tables after they are up a small percentage... and not look to make 5000 percent every time they walk into a casino. This simple concept would destroy the industry. Luckily for the casinos, 99% of people that gamble do not have the discipline, knowledge, or control to do so.



That is a strategy mathematically doomed to fail in the long run.

Stop loss / stop win points only delay the inevitable.
"What, me worry?"
FinsRule
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mipletTomGAxelWolf
July 20th, 2018 at 8:40:18 AM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

There is a simple concept t a book that would get the casinos upset and that is telling everyone to leave the tables after they are up a small percentage... and not look to make 5000 percent every time they walk into a casino. This simple concept would destroy the industry. Luckily for the casinos, 99% of people that gamble do not have the discipline, knowledge, or control to do so.



Of course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.
WatchMeWin
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July 20th, 2018 at 11:43:22 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Of course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.



I would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
FinsRule
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:01:20 PM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

I would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.



You think “sessions” are a thing.

Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.
WatchMeWin
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:25:21 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

You think “sessions” are a thing.

Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.



Here are simple mathematics for you to calculate and ponder over before you decide to provoke me with a first blow again next time.

You are hiding in your basement from your wife eating pizza worrying about paying your next bill because you either mismanage money or haven't had the aptitude to make enough money through either gaming for work or whatever.

On the other side of the equation, I I'm living a pretty darn good life and nothing was ever handed to me. I do what I want, when I want, and where I want . I took -400k debt 15 years ago with no ability to get a loan or have anyone hand me anything... and I have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it. That is why I don't play any other games except poker.

Going out to play 9 holes now then a nice big fat steak dinner with my Wall Street Buddies. Enjoy your pizza!
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
FinsRule
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:30:27 PM permalink
I’m a vegetarian, and “Wall Street buddies” aren’t my thing.

Surprised you aren’t at work today.

I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.

If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.
WatchMeWin
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:41:20 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I’m a vegetarian, and “Wall Street buddies” aren’t my thing.

Surprised you aren’t at work today.

I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.

If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.



Lets Nip this in the butt here.. All good. Family always first. Take care of your wife and kid. And for the record, I don't like having a big bankroll for playing craps, I like having a big bankroll to do whatever the heck I like. It's not money that I love, it's the things that money can buy that I love!

And they say money can't buy love. I don't want to go into that argument but I can tell you that lack of money can sure by misery.
'Winners hit n run... Losers stick around'
MaxPen
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:48:26 PM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

I would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.



You forgot to tell him to drink Gatorade in order to maintain electrolyte levels.
FinsRule
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July 20th, 2018 at 12:50:58 PM permalink
The funny thing is, we probably agree about what you are saying.

In a typical year, I probably make about 4-5 casino trips. If I am driving an hour to Horseshoe Hammond with $500, and I hit a straight flush in Pai Gow on the first hand, I probably should just leave. But, I didn’t just go to make money. I went to hang out with my friends and relax for a while. So I’ll end up losing that 250 back throughout the rest of the day and end up even.

But I’m a recreational casino gambler. (Horses are different)

I guess what I’m saying is that everyone comes from a different place, and I understand that, and I think you do too.
MrV
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July 20th, 2018 at 1:26:53 PM permalink
Quote: WatchMeWin

I have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it.



I recognize the possibility that you could make good money playing poker, as it is a game of skill: maybe you have the skill.

Craps however is NOT a game of skill.

DI is a nonexistent fallacy.

Your continuing claims of mastery at the craps table are rejected by me as the ravings of someone seeking attention, validation, and respect.

Sorry, Charlie.
"What, me worry?"
Keeneone
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July 20th, 2018 at 4:59:34 PM permalink
I really liked Simple Minds. They were a Scottish band and had a couple of excellent songs. This tune's lyrics are interesting in the discussion of dice influence:

"Alive and Kicking"

...What you gonna do when things go wrong?
What you gonna do when it all cracks up?
What you gonna do when the love burns down?
What you gonna do when the flames go up?
Who is gonna come and turn the tide?
What's it gonna take to make a dream survive?
Who's got the touch to calm the storm inside?
Who's gonna save you?...
WizardofDice
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July 22nd, 2018 at 7:36:16 AM permalink
Yes, DI is fact not fiction and not completely random.
dogqck
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July 22nd, 2018 at 8:18:47 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

Yes, DI is fact not fiction and not completely random.



I agree. So do my friends Easter Bunny & Santa Claus.
megapixels
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July 22nd, 2018 at 9:07:32 AM permalink
The only influence you have is whether or not the dice hit the back wall. I have no problem with people setting them, though. They might just do it for fun, like how I separate skittles into different colors, then eat them in order of most to least. Do I think it influences any part of my day doing that? No.
beachbumbabs
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OnceDear
July 22nd, 2018 at 9:33:45 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Of course. People leaving casinos and gambling less would be bad for the casino industry. Earth shattering stuff.



Quote: WatchMeWin

I would expect that Simple Minds not understand the full thought behind the concept. FYI, it is not just a matter of spending less time at the casino and leaving property.



Quote: FinsRule

You think “sessions” are a thing.

Let’s take a vote on who the simple mind is.



Quote: WatchMeWin

Here are simple mathematics for you to calculate and ponder over before you decide to provoke me with a first blow again next time.

You are hiding in your basement from your wife eating pizza worrying about paying your next bill because you either mismanage money or haven't had the aptitude to make enough money through either gaming for work or whatever.

On the other side of the equation, I I'm living a pretty darn good life and nothing was ever handed to me. I do what I want, when I want, and where I want . I took -400k debt 15 years ago with no ability to get a loan or have anyone hand me anything... and I have wiped out that debt and turned it into a very significant positive net. I've done this through my work and supplemented through my gaming. Needless to say, if my gaming aspect were a losing venture, I just wouldn't do it. That is why I don't play any other games except poker.

Going out to play 9 holes now then a nice big fat steak dinner with my Wall Street Buddies. Enjoy your pizza!



Quote: FinsRule

I’m a vegetarian, and “Wall Street buddies” aren’t my thing.

Surprised you aren’t at work today.

I took the day off to spend time with my children (my oldest turned 7 yesterday) and wife that I love. We are going to an arcade type place because it’s raining.

If you think I’d want to somehow switch places with you because then I’d have a bigger bankroll to play craps... Well, I’ll let you guess the answer.



Quote: WatchMeWin

Lets Nip this in the butt here.. All good. Family always first. Take care of your wife and kid. And for the record, I don't like having a big bankroll for playing craps, I like having a big bankroll to do whatever the heck I like. It's not money that I love, it's the things that money can buy that I love!

And they say money can't buy love. I don't want to go into that argument but I can tell you that lack of money can sure by misery.



So, let's take this conversation in isolation from the thread. In, fact take 3 days to think about it.

Perhaps only "Simple Minds" can tell the difference between criticism or argument of a post, and a personal insult. You failed spectacularly, called him simple in a condescending tone, he said, let's take a vote (which still wasn't an insult though personally directed), and you got even snottier speculating about his personal life.

Then, after even YOU caught on that you had crossed the line, you tried to make it right but stopped short of an apology, which might have made this a warning, since YOU struck the first and all subsequent blows.

Attacking your methods as a system unsupported by the math or long-term, repeatable success is NOT a personal attack. It's the entire point of this website and forum to debunk systems, advise on the best games for the players, and swap information about different casinos, plays, game variations, etc.

Get used to the criticism you're going to receive (and have been receiving for months) for touting a -EV system. Every time you plug it, you're going to get pushback from the mathematically sound and expert players here. There are other forums where you can find fawning and unquestioning admirers if that's what you're after, but don't expect that kind of ignorance here.

Just wanted to add that it's "Nip this in the BUD", not "butt". The saying is about smart gardening, where you prune back many types of plants before they flower and weaken their system with too many blooms. Not about some chihuahua ruining your day.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MrV
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July 22nd, 2018 at 10:44:13 AM permalink
One less "chihuahua" yipping, nipping and seeking undeserved attention; maybe a few days in "the pound" will serve as an epiphany.
"What, me worry?"
Zcore13
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July 22nd, 2018 at 11:45:30 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

Yes, DI is fact not fiction and not completely random.



Here we go. We got a fresh one...


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
WizardofDice
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July 24th, 2018 at 12:45:23 AM permalink
(Excerpt on Dice Setting Introduction of Stanford Wong)
He obviously did believe that some people can influence the dice but that is was very difficult and something few have mastered.
Written by: Michael Shackleford
/games/craps/appendix/3/

I'll preface this by saying I'm not one of the two gentlemen mentioned above. I'm not a troll or an author. Just an avid dice player.
My comments are subjective and based on my experience of over 50 years with dice, craps play and the many years of observing many others play craps including those who practice DI tossing. In addition I have never taken or paid for a class and probably don't know anyone on this board as I don't post much if any at all.
The subject itself came into vogue with certain books and programs that popularized this. Many had the misguidance that it would be their 'cash cow'. Many books, schools came about on this subject as we all know. The casinos for a while went to great strides to protect their bottom line. Then they realized that the various DI players coming in their joints using their newly learned AP DI 'voodoo magic' did not have practical importance and more than likely the wave of DI players enhanced that bottom line. (jmho)
There is a big difference between Thinking and Knowing. You have to Know, not Think you know.
The critics that reject belief, I care to not squabble with you, it is a waste of precious time. Discuss yes, argue no.
You can make light or jokes, but to that I say is narrow minded thinking and writing.
I've found that the majority of mental rejection on this subject as untrue is from those that have personal knowledge of DI players at the tables that perhaps are not very good at it and quite possibly don't know what they are doing.
In all the years of playing I have seen only a handful that have a true skill at DI that are very good or masterful.
The post from the OP was: Do you think DI is possible? with the accompanied poll
DI yes, DC no

Never criticize a man until you've walked a mile in his moccasins.
-American Indian Proverb
Last edited by: WizardofDice on Jul 24, 2018
AxelWolf
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July 24th, 2018 at 2:57:05 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

(Excerpt on Dice Setting Introduction of Stanford Wong)
He obviously did believe that some people can influence the dice but that is was very difficult and something few have mastered.
Written by: Michael Shackleford
/games/craps/appendix/3/

Key words here is HE DID, as in past tense. And then he came to his scenes. He may not publicly say its impossible(that's lots of refunds one would have to give out).

There are a handful of people who have tremendous looking shots, unfortunately, it doesn't ever change the odds.

Why is it that all other aspects of legit ways of beating casinos have been proven yet DI remains unproven after all these years?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Zcore13
Zcore13
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July 24th, 2018 at 4:10:43 AM permalink
Yeah, he recanted his idea that DI is real. I dont know of any gaming mathematician, gaming statistics person, gaming protection expert, etc, that believes a legal throw can be controlled even a small amount.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
WizardofDice
WizardofDice
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July 24th, 2018 at 5:25:01 AM permalink
Did Wong ever change his mind publicly? And of course it sells their books or classes, I didn't think of that and it was stated from many years ago on the Wizard's site. Perhaps updating the web site is in order if he did change his mind.

Books and classes don't make a DI player.
Like most things in life in order to get better it takes a tremendous amount of effort and practice.
DI play is not for everyone. Those that slow down the game setting dice should quit doing it.
I think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom. There's probably video out there, but I would suspect they would be selling something. Video could be done in a private setting not sure it would fly in a live one.
For the number folks on here, I would think beating the probabilities is the only test. It would have to be done in a live setting, otherwise the data would be skewed in the DI's favor.
It's a physical game, the only one in which you have a hand in the outcome (pun intended), so don't you think you could influence?
It's not DC.

DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.
Not many players have the ability to do this without getting frustrated and there are an overwhelming amount of obstacles and distractions that hinder the ability to influence. So, they give up and ascertain that it's hocus pocus, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus thinking etc. and (if they play craps) they are always without a doubt your random rollers, playing the game of chance.
And that's a good thing.

A DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.
If they aren't setting in under a second or close to it, they aren't a DI player.
It's commonly known as a chance game and for the vast majority it is.

Winners never quit and quitters never win.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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July 24th, 2018 at 5:43:38 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

Did Wong ever change his mind publicly? And of course it sells their books or classes, I didn't think of that and it was stated from many years ago on the Wizard's site. Perhaps updating the web site is in order if he did change his mind.

Books and classes don't make a DI player.
Like most things in life in order to get better it takes a tremendous amount of effort and practice.
DI play is not for everyone. Those that slow down the game setting dice should quit doing it.
I think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom. There's probably video out there, but I would suspect they would be selling something. Video could be done in a private setting not sure it would fly in a live one.
For the number folks on here, I would think beating the probabilities is the only test. It would have to be done in a live setting, otherwise the data would be skewed in the DI's favor.
It's a physical game, the only one in which you have a hand in the outcome (pun intended), so don't you think you could influence?
It's not DC.

DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.
Not many players have the ability to do this without getting frustrated and there are an overwhelming amount of obstacles and distractions that hinder the ability to influence. So, they give up and ascertain that it's hocus pocus, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus thinking etc. and (if they play craps) they are always without a doubt your random rollers, playing the game of chance.
And that's a good thing.

A DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.
If they aren't setting in under a second or close to it, they aren't a DI player.
It's commonly known as a chance game and for the vast majority it is.

Winners never quit and quitters never win.

Let's say you find this guy with 1000's of hours of live practice and all the other qualities you mentioned. Other than that, how do you determine if he has an advantage?


It seems to me a series of slow-motion video would show if there's any real influence. We have seen videos from people who own their own craps table with many hours of practice and once the dice it the table it looks like everyone else with a similar toss. These guys are desperately trying to prove DI works, so why can't they?
The only people who remain in the DI business are the guys who make money from all the other stuff.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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July 24th, 2018 at 9:28:04 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice


DI can only be accomplished with 1,000's of hours of live practice combined with persistence, discipline and perseverance.



NO. BABBLE. BLATHER. No human can influence the random outcome that rolling two dice under casino rules allows. CAN'T BE DONE.

SIMPLE.
MrV
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July 24th, 2018 at 10:49:57 AM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

A DI player doesn't roll the bones or shoot the dice, they set them in under a second and toss them.
They hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot.



OK, so the greatest DI in the world rolls dem bones.

As you say, "they hit the felt and then the rubber diamond wall, which randomizes the dice when you roll or shoot."

On this we agree.

Where we disagree, and where you shot yourself in the foot, is in concluding that someone somewhere somehow can overcome this conceded randomizing effect.

Can't be done; How could it?

High Hopes be damned
"What, me worry?"
petroglyph
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July 24th, 2018 at 12:30:18 PM permalink
Quote: WizardofDice

I think DI play could be proven with an ultra slow motion camera like a Phantom.

It only takes about 600 fps to truly see what is happening with the dies. Casio had a camera that would shoot 1000fps for around 300$.

You should rent or borrow a camera or find a way to see a few tosses with hi speed photography. Actually it would be great that you do so, before making to many claims here at the wov.

The dice are doing a lot of things that you can not see with the naked eye.

It is definitely a revealing learning tool/experience, and fun.
dogqck
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July 24th, 2018 at 12:49:32 PM permalink
There is none so blind as he who will not see !
billryan
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July 24th, 2018 at 3:02:59 PM permalink
Jack builds a dice pit and spends thousands of hours practicing.
Jill takes a job at Burger King , works thousands of hours and saves it diligently.
Who has the brighter future?
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
dogqck
dogqck
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July 24th, 2018 at 4:25:13 PM permalink
And finally, in April 2011, in a tacit admission that he had been wrong in believing casino craps could be legitimately beaten, Wong removed craps from the list of “Beatable Casino Games” on his popular BJ21.com website,
mcallister3200
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July 24th, 2018 at 8:55:07 PM permalink
I don’t recall the exact terminology wong used, but back when he was a guest on GWAE in the time period that shack was a host, I recall Mike trying to nail him down on the DI thing....IIRC Wong admitted something to the effect that he no longer believed craps could be beaten by DI but did believe the HE could be reduced.
MrV
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July 24th, 2018 at 9:32:12 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph


You should rent or borrow a camera or find a way to see a few tosses with hi speed photography. Actually it would be great that you do so, before making to many claims here at the wov.

The dice are doing a lot of things that you can not see with the naked eye.

It is definitely a revealing learning tool/experience, and fun.



Indeed it is.

Here's some slo-mo DI pics
"What, me worry?"
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