Need advice as a Don’t player on long roll
That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the tableQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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Quote: Ace2That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the tableQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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Short term, it can. Making almost any craps bet with a match play coupon is +EV.
A match play , good Mail and a 100% loss rebate won't negate the house edge??? Your much better at math than me, but I'll stick stick to my nethanderal math abilities and pocket the cash from such things when available.Quote: Ace2That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the tableQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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A match play , good Mail and a 100% loss rebate won't negate the house edge??? You are much better at math than me, but I'll stick stick to my nethanderal math abilities and pocket the cash from such things when available.Quote: Ace2That’s great if true but I seriously doubt all that stuff negates even the lowest edge on the tableQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles. Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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Free bet coupons, match play coupons, promo chips all are positive expectation.
I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t
So I quit even bothering with it, even though I now play at $100 level or higher. Am I doing something wrong ? Am I supposed to periodically remind pit bosses to comp me stuff ?
A friend of mine gets mail offers from cosmopolitan. Generally the free hotel nights will be midweek and only one night. Useless.
Regarding match plays: so they’ll send me several hundred of them ? 100% loss rebate…really ?
I should clarify that I’m not much of a coupon clipper. If the casino wants to comp me something valuable such as : “your room is comped here whenever you’d like to come” then it’s worth it. But I’m not going to jump though hoops for a free meal or something like that
Also, I’m going to stay/eat where I want irrespective of comps, so I maybe I’m not seeing the juice as worth the squeeze. I know some people really get off on comps…maybe I just need a comp instructor
True but do they add up to anything material?Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfMost of my craps play has been played with an advantage, but even I have myself played craps a few times as a looser.
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Interesting statement . According to some, all bets on the craps table have a negative expectation, but you play with an "advantage". Perhaps you could elaborate what that or those are, and since you have said that you have lost only a "few times" rather than a majority of times, you certainly, by your definition, are not a craps "loser." Just holding your feet to the fire.
tuttigym
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Free bet coupons, match play coupons, promo chips all are positive expectation.
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Quote: Ace2I need someone to teach me how to get all these comps. Seriously.
I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t
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Come to Reno. I Have a friend who flies in from Connecticut a couple of times a year. $10-50 BJ player, he gets as many nights as he wants from several properties.
First, table game players get less in comps and free play and promos than slot and video poker players get.
Can the free play and coupons that you get as a table player add up to anything substantial? In reality, no.
When I was a 7 Stars player at Caesars I'd frequently get offers such as $2500 of free play for slots and video poker. But I'd rarely get anything for craps.
Once -- and I do mean ONCE -- I got a $500 free play chip, and ONCE I got ten $100 chips.
Both times the chips were "live" meaning you could rebet them till lost.
But in all my years with Caesars that's all I ever got for table play.
That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?Quote: unJonI get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
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Quote: Ace2That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?Quote: unJonI get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
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Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.
Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.
When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
Good info. And I did recently open a credit line though I haven’t yet been back to use it.Quote: unJonQuote: Ace2That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?Quote: unJonI get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
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Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.
Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.
When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
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Another question on comps: I’ve read about comps on theoretical loss and actual loss. Let’s say you had a major loss: how do you prove it?
Quote: Ace2Good info. And I did recently open a credit line though I haven’t yet been back to use it.Quote: unJonQuote: Ace2That sounds worth it. How do you get to know a host ? Also, what is “board” ?Quote: unJonI get full room, food and board from any MGM strip property playing black chip craps and BJ. It’s pretty easy once you get to know a host.
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Oops. Board was supposed to be beverage. Had “room and board” in my head as I was typing.
Lots of ways to get a host. Easiest is to apply to open up a credit line at a casino. Can be for a higher amount than you ever expect to gamble in order to attract host attention.
When you go to sign the marker you can ask to meet a host. Almost certainly the host station is in the same place or next door to the place you’ll sign the marker.
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Another question on comps: I’ve read about comps on theoretical loss and actual loss. Let’s say you had a major loss: how do you prove it?
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Always play rated with your card. If you are playing black, the pit is almost certainly tracking your cash in and cash out amount. Make sure they see it when you color up.
And obviously it’s even easier if you play by drawing the marker. As they know how much you owe them back.
Definitions: Previously determined from posters who use these terms.
A Loser is someone who lost some money at the casino
A Looser is someone who lost a lot of money at the casino!
It's kind of like the Hodler thing
The big picture of +EV play using match play etc:
The match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.
On the other hand, it is possible to get over-comped. In fact it is typical for an AP to get comped while doing his thing because the casino has to assume all players are not APs until they find out otherwise. So the AP plays out his comps at what would be normally -EV activity, to get the money.
I am not an AP except that I have often been over-comped. This has been enough to make my visits to the casino +EV, except for travel expense. Overall this makes me a Loser ... but not a Looser!
Cheap entertainment is what I call it.
adjective
comparative adjective: looser
1.
not firmly or tightly fixed in place; detached or able to be detached.
"a loose tooth"
Similar:
not fixed in place
not secure
insecure
unsecured
unattached
detached
unfastened
wobbly
rickety
unsteady
movable
Opposite:
secure
tight
2.
(of a garment) not fitting tightly or closely.
"she slipped into a loose T-shirt and shorts"
Quote: DeMangoCasting pearls before Swine Alan? Or "Uncircumcised Philistines" as King David would call them.
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I guess so. On this forum if an AP says it, it must be true.
Evidently calling them loosers is acceptable.
It seems that APs understand that beating the marketing department is a good way to turn the tables on the casino while loosers like to sit around and question how such a thing is possible. Don't be a looser.
Quote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?
Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?
** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?
Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?
** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.
tuttigym
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Let me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.
I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.
I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.
I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.
My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
many moons ago, those freeplay chips used to be in play till you lost.Quote: AlanMendelsonLet me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.
I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7.
I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.
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the current version of lose the chips even if you win SUCKS!
Quote: AlanMendelsonLet me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.
I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.
I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.
I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.
My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
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OK excellent use of the "free" money showing great discipline, but of course, the subsequent play becomes the question which is rhetorical........ My second comment regarding the post is that the original post is directed to MrAxel. Hopefully, he will be forthcoming.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymQuote: AlanMendelsonLet me take a stab at your question as it happened to me once.
I was offered a $100 free table game bet at a casino in Primm. I bet the passline. The shooter rolled a winner 7. I was paid a $100 negotiable chip and the casino took my $100 free wager chip.
I went to the cage and cashed my $100 chip.
I went to my car and continued my drive to Vegas.
My original $100 free bet was my advantage play. Any subsequent bet with the $100 or any part of it would have been -EV.
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OK excellent use of the "free" money showing great discipline, but of course, the subsequent play becomes the question which is rhetorical........ My second comment regarding the post is that the original post is directed to MrAxel. Hopefully, he will be forthcoming.
tuttigym
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I think he'll give you the same answer. An advantage play has a certain definition. His example might be different but all advantage plays share similar conditions.
Alan answered the question quite well. There are many different scenarios that offer the player a +EV opportunity while playing craps, finding them and figuring out how to exploit them is the hard part.Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So that is it? The casino "gives" you "free"** money, and you play and win, and that is "advantage play"?
Let's say the marketing department gives you $100 in table play. You belly up to the table, bet the PL ($100) and you win $100. Do you walk or continue to play? If you play and lose, what then? Do you walk or play with your $$?
** "free money": casino $$$ "earned" by continuous play with real $$$ which according to MrAxel he mostly loses.
tuttigym
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Quote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?
Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?
Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?
tuttigym
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Your assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.
If I wanted to treat casino Gaming as a business I'd scour newspapers for $5 match plays, I'd run to casinos that offered free play with a sign up bonus, I'd only bet my $5 free play offers. If some +EV special offer came around such as bet $1000 and get $1000 loss rebate I'd consider it. If Blackjacks paid 2 to 1 for 12 hours I'd jump, if hard 8s paid 12 to 1 I'd go crazy. This is what APs do.
Frankly I think these opportunities are too few and I doubt they're making a true living at it. But if they're making $200 a week good for them! Frankly if they made $100 a week that's great.
I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.
You have to decide what you want.
If APs are happy playing nothing more than abandoned multipliers on video poker games good for them. That's their shtick. I choose not to hunt for them but if I see one I'll play it because I understand the advantage it offers.
I'll also pick up abandoned tickets. Arrest me. But I dont hunt for abandoned credits on machines.
By the way, I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.
Everyone has their niche and forte.
Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYour assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.
Thanks for the affirmation and the subsequent honesty.
Mr. Axel, do you want to comment??
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymSo, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?
Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?
tuttigym
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Tuttigym,Quote: tuttigym
Thanks for the affirmation and the subsequent honesty.
Mr. Axel, do you want to comment??
tuttigym
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I find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
So you just play the lowest house edge games in the casino?Quote: AlanMendelsonI pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.
I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.
Everyone has their niche and forte.
Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
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How is an Advantage Shopper different from a smart gambler?
Also, you said you're not an AP.
You play for excitement and entertainment being an AS.
then you say you're living well from that AS career and the plush retirement fund it gave you.
So you made a living being an AS?
Quote: OnceDearI find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
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OnceDear: Your suggestion that I "underestimated" Mr.AxelWolf is mistaken. He made a statement in response to my question. My response was a direct diagnosis of fact that there was no actual gambling "advantage" of play regarding the game itself and without the use of "free" money his reference to "advantage play" is really non-existent. To me, the term "advantage" infers the player has the "upper hand" over the house which according to most here at the forum just does not happen. Virtually everyone I know that receives free "table play" uses it and more to enhance their gaming experience.
Your answer in his stead has given him a nice out. Did you underestimate MrWolf??
tuttigym
Quote: 100xOddsSo you just play the lowest house edge games in the casino?Quote: AlanMendelsonI pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.
I had a great career being an Advantage Shopper and today I'm living well from that career and the plush retirement fund it gave me.
Everyone has their niche and forte.
Not everyone can count cards or is willing to clip coupons.
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How is an Advantage Shopper different from a smart gambler?
Also, you said you're not an AP.
You play for excitement and entertainment being an AS.
then you say you're living well from that AS career and the plush retirement fund it gave you.
So you made a living being an AS?
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I think I'm a smart gambler but I'm not an advantage player even though I do use advantage plays when they present themselves.
True APs treat casino gaming as a business. I don't. Just as I don't play golf to earn money.
As far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.
To tuttigym: frankly I dont understand what point you're driving at? And I don't understand why you're being critical of what others do. However, if you are questioning claims I think you have a right to do that as we dont want to see false claims sway unknowing consumers
Quote: tuttigymQuote: OnceDearI find your underestimation of AxelWolf to be most amusing. Trust me, he is not the sucker to be lured in and duped into staying to hand money back.
If he takes the bait and plays a -EV game, it's most likely to lure the casinos into throwing him some bigger bait. He doesnt swallow the hook.
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OnceDear: Your suggestion that I "underestimated" Mr.AxelWolf is mistaken. He made a statement in response to my question. My response was a direct diagnosis of fact that there was no actual gambling "advantage" of play regarding the game itself and without the use of "free" money his reference to "advantage play" is really non-existent. To me, the term "advantage" infers the player has the "upper hand" over the house which according to most here at the forum just does not happen. Virtually everyone I know that receives free "table play" uses it and more to enhance their gaming experience.
Your answer in his stead has given him a nice out. Did you underestimate MrWolf??
tuttigym
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Hmmmmmm I think it's indeed down to the definition of advantage play or advantage player.
I assert that it has nothing to do with any game or the playing thereof. [advantage] 'Play' in this context iis a noun meaning '[advantageous] situation' and an advantage player takes advantage of that situation. Absolutely nothing needed from gambling. A bit of gambling or machine play MAY be involved in creating or monetizing the advantage.
The situation is usually a marketing generosity, or game flaw, but there are others.
I'll give you an example of a typical advantage play. Actually done by myself at my online casino this month. It was a tiny 'play' but the principle still applies.
The offer was "Credit £150 and get £10 free play on a certain slot" No other restrictions
So. Where was the advantage?
I credit £150 to my account. Play my £10 of free spins, netting £8 and then just withdrew my £158
I really couldn't lose.
I had an advantage over the house. The game had an advantage over me that cost me nothing.
Teeny, Tiny advantage of whatever the RTP was on that slot. Call it 80% of £10 that cost me nothing
The slot game was -EV. Playing it was just a means to an end converting a non-negotiable freebie into hard cash.
Advantage players Play the system, defeat the casino. Seldom the game.
System players, goal setters, hit and runners. They have no advantage. No advantageous situation to exploit
ok, Googled:Quote: AlanMendelsonAs far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"
Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'
This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
Quote: 100xOddsok, Googled:Quote: AlanMendelsonAs far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"
Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'
This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
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LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
Would an example be an 'extreme couponer"?Quote: AlanMendelson
LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
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now i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: 100xOddsok, Googled:Quote: AlanMendelsonAs far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"
Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'
This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
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LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
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Quote: 100xOddsnow i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: 100xOddsok, Googled:Quote: AlanMendelsonAs far as my history as an Advantage Shopper you can Google me. I use my real name.
Alan Mendelson "advantage shopper"
Result:
'It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search'
This is the 1st time i've heard the term Advantage Shopper for gambling and want to know more about it.
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LOL advantage shopper has nothing to do with gambling.
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Here ya go. Not one mention of casinos. But I could have pointed out that inflation has reduced 3:2 Blackjack to 6:5 Blackjack, and 8/5 Bonus Video Poker has been reduced to 7/5 Bonus Video Poker.
https://youtu.be/MPI2bkc9i3E
thxQuote: AlanMendelsonHere ya go. Not one mention of casinos.Quote: 100xOddsnow i have no idea what you're talking about with Advantage shopper?
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But I could have pointed out that inflation has reduced 3:2 Blackjack to 6:5 Blackjack, and 8/5 Bonus Video Poker has been reduced to 7/5 Bonus Video Poker.
https://youtu.be/MPI2bkc9i3E
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In 3rd world countries:
i've seen 8/5 bp but all quads pay 30 instead of extra for baby quads and Aces.
I've also seen 7/5 bp but all quads pay 35.
both are 98.5% return.
as for inflation, that's why i like shopping at Costco.
nothing is over 15% profit.
sure, there's inflation but i know i'm not being reamed by Costco
Gaining an advantage at craps isn't easy, it's not as if you can roll into any old casino and there's an obvious clear advantage to be had. Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.Quote: Ace2I need someone to teach me how to get all these comps. Seriously.
I used to play at $25 level for craps and BJ. I’d give them my players card (mid level strip properties) and after a weekend of play I’d check my points balance online…basically I hadn’t earned jack sh*t
So I quit even bothering with it, even though I now play at $100 level or higher. Am I doing something wrong ? Am I supposed to periodically remind pit bosses to comp me stuff ?
A friend of mine gets mail offers from cosmopolitan. Generally the free hotel nights will be midweek and only one night. Useless.
Regarding match plays: so they’ll send me several hundred of them ? 100% loss rebate…really ?
I should clarify that I’m not much of a coupon clipper. If the casino wants to comp me something valuable such as : “your room is comped here whenever you’d like to come” then it’s worth it. But I’m not going to jump though hoops for a free meal or something like that
Also, I’m going to stay/eat where I want irrespective of comps, so I maybe I’m not seeing the juice as worth the squeeze. I know some people really get off on comps…maybe I just need a comp instructor
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Here's the thing, anyone that has the information, knowledge, and discipline to do this realizes they can make a lot more money for much less effort on other things related to Advantage play.
A dedicated knowledgeable multiplayer hunter/ vulture/ sniper, or whatever you call it would make a hell of a lot more than a few hundred dollars a week, one could make hundreds a day on average if they're really going for it.Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: tuttigymQuote: AxelWolfI agree all bets on the craps table are -EV. With that being said,you can still have an advantage via the marketing department when taking advantage of various promotions. To name a few commonly known angles.... Incentive Mail, match plays, loss rebates, they can all put you at an advantage while playing craps.
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So, the casinos, through their marketing entities, are luring their patrons a la three card Monte style, with "free" "advantage play" money to play big time a -EV, negative expectation game, right? So, how does that translate to real advantage play when the ultimate outcome, as expressed many times over, is losing?
Mr. Mendelson's anecdotal experience is isolated and incomplete. I would suggest that he has received similar "free money" promotions which eventually turned into casino profits. The casino is enticing and deceiving the player into somehow believing the player is getting and "advantage." Rhetorical question: Is P.T. Barnum right?
tuttigym
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Your assumptions are correct if someone goes beyond playing just their +EV bets. But there are people who treat casino gaming as a business. I'm not one of them, however.
If I wanted to treat casino Gaming as a business I'd scour newspapers for $5 match plays, I'd run to casinos that offered free play with a sign up bonus, I'd only bet my $5 free play offers. If some +EV special offer came around such as bet $1000 and get $1000 loss rebate I'd consider it. If Blackjacks paid 2 to 1 for 12 hours I'd jump, if hard 8s paid 12 to 1 I'd go crazy. This is what APs do.
Frankly I think these opportunities are too few and I doubt they're making a true living at it. But if they're making $200 a week good for them! Frankly if they made $100 a week that's great.
I pride myself being an AS... that's an Advantage Shopper. I shop carefully. I'm not an Advantage Player... I play for excitement and entertainment.
You have to decide what you want.
If APs are happy playing nothing more than abandoned multipliers on video poker games good for them. That's their shtick. I choose not to hunt for them but if I see one I'll play it because I understand the advantage it offers.
Most of the advantage players that have been doing this for a while have multiple plays in their toolbox, vulturing is just a small part of that toolbox. Most of the guys that I know don't even bother with that stuff all that often unless they just happened to be walking by or there is something new and Juicy out there that hasn't been discovered by the masses yet.
Quote: AxelWolfA dedicated knowledgeable multiplayer hunter/ vulture/ sniper, or whatever you call it would make a hell of a lot more than a few hundred dollars a week, one could make hundreds a day on average if they're really going for it.
Most of the advantage players that have been doing this for a while have multiple plays in their toolbox, vulturing is just a small part of that toolbox. Most of the guys that I know don't even bother with that stuff all that often unless they just happened to be walking by or there is something new and Juicy out there that hasn't been discovered by the masses yet.
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I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?
2. In order to receive the "big bucks" free play, what level of play is required?
3. There is a suggestion within this post that "free play" is basically a non-factor in gambling and that one might infer, to that end, that AP really does not exist with some very small exceptions. So why the chest beating and huffing and puffing about "Hey, I AM AN AP."?
What you have confirmed with this part of the discussion is that when it comes to table games, the advantage is unmistakably with the House.
tuttigym
Quote: odiousgambitThe match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.
This one paragraph sums it up and provides real clarity and transparency to whole AP discussion which states, IMO, AP is a myth.
Thank you Mr. OG.
tuttigym
Quote: AxelWolfAlan answered the question quite well. There are many different scenarios that offer the player a +EV opportunity while playing craps, finding them and figuring out how to exploit them is the hard part.
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IMO he actually did not. Suppose that offer was from a casino that was 300+ miles from his home location and was only good within a particular and narrow time frame, would he rush out to claim his "prize"? Unlikely. I receive "free play" offers quite often, but my casino is over 400 miles away. There is "no free lunch" and there is no AP for me based on what this conversation has produced. I suspect that my situation is not unique within the Forum community and that when discussing AP offers, location and time are required for access, not actual play.
tuttigym
Quote: AlanMendelsonTo tuttigym: frankly I dont understand what point you're driving at? And I don't understand why you're being critical of what others do. However, if you are questioning claims I think you have a right to do that as we dont want to see false claims sway unknowing consumers
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Mr. Mendelson: I want to be clear, so please tell me what "point" you do not understand. I will elaborate or clarify To what criticism are you referring? I do want to criticize you for answering a question directed specifically to someone else. If someone were to direct a question to me, and someone else puts words in my mouth, I would be upset. The fact that he affirmed your answer is meaningless. He did not answer the question in his own words and thoughts. You are correct about the "false claims," and being an AP in a literal sense is a false claim.
tuttigym
I do think it is the 'usual' situationQuote: tuttigymQuote: odiousgambitThe match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.
This one paragraph sums it up and provides real clarity and transparency to whole AP discussion which states, IMO, AP is a myth.
Thank you Mr. OG.
tuttigym
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... and that's why the casinos do it. People can get remarkably sucked into it, this business of playing a losing game to get comps. Some smart people too.
But I don't agree with your last statement. It may be true that there are 100+ people of the type we are bemoaning for every bonafide AP, but they are real... the proof of which is the great efforts the casinos make to find these people.
Quote: billryanHe's right. AP is a myth that doesn't exist in his worldview. I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time trying to convince him otherwise.
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Mr.billryan: My "worldview" questions anything my intellect does not believe. It seems your intellect accepts without questioning. My questions are providing clarity and conversation and participation. Those joing the conversation and participation apparently feel it is worth their time.
tuttigym
