Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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July 3rd, 2021 at 8:54:26 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

MrDieter: As before, you dodge the question and distract attention elsewhere as well as distort the obvious. Speaking of dodging, I noticed that you somehow did not provide answers to the other questions posed: money buy-in; time; dice rolls; hands played; and specific requirements. Why is that? Just sayin'.

tuttigym



They don't matter to the house edge.
May the cards fall in your favor.
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 10:11:19 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

They don't matter to the house edge.


Nice try, but if you or others are to have any credibility to the very VALID (emphasis) questions posed, then why not be forthcoming or just say, " I don't know." Why are you and others so invested in this wager when it usually leads to big time multiple loses which exceed those in games such as "21." baccarat, roulette (dollar for dollar wager), and even "carnival "card games?

When explaining craps to someone who wants to learn about the game, do you talk about the PL bet as being "one of the best bets in the casino" and go into the convoluted math or do you, prudently, relate the extreme pitfalls of PL bet when the point is established of the HA beating the player to the tune of 73% to 27% of the time?

tuttigym
Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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July 3rd, 2021 at 11:05:16 AM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

Nice try, but if you or others are to have any credibility to the very VALID (emphasis) questions posed, then why not be forthcoming or just say, " I don't know." Why are you and others so invested in this wager when it usually leads to big time multiple loses which exceed those in games such as "21." baccarat, roulette (dollar for dollar wager), and even "carnival "card games?

When explaining craps to someone who wants to learn about the game, do you talk about the PL bet as being "one of the best bets in the casino" and go into the convoluted math or do you, prudently, relate the extreme pitfalls of PL bet when the point is established of the HA beating the player to the tune of 73% to 27% of the time?

tuttigym



Out of 495 pass line bets, you are expected to lose about 7 more than you win.

The rules of the game and the dice landing randomly set that up.

Unless you can change the rules of the game or change the dice to not land randomly, that's about how things are going to go.

How much you bet does not change the rules
How much you bet does not change how the dice land.
Making other bets does not change the rules.
Making other bets does not change how the.dice land.

Once the dice are rolled, your bet cannot be withdrawn until the wager is settled.
You're still subject to the 7 extra losses per 495 rolls, no matter what you do.

You seem to be looking for a system of arranging multiple bets that are more likely to lose than win so that you're more likely to win than lose.
I wish you all the success and happiness you deserve in your pursuit of this endeavor.
May the cards fall in your favor.
sabre
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 2:19:13 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym


When explaining craps to someone who wants to learn about the game, do you talk about the PL bet as being "one of the best bets in the casino"



Yes. Because it's a simple wager that carries a 1.41% house edge. Obviously you can do better at baccarat but that game is boring. You can do better at blackjack but that takes memorization of basic strategy. Not to mention that the resolution of a pass line bet takes longer than both of those.
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 3:49:53 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

Out of 495 pass line bets, you are expected to lose about 7 more than you win.


The rules of the game and the dice landing randomly set that up.


The key word you have used is 'EXPECTED." Real world craps with "random" rolls do not/have not produced documented results that mirror the possibility of playing 495 hands/PL bets consecutive or not with that "expected" outcome. Just because there are 495 possible ways to win and lose PL bets doesn't mean that it can happen in such a way as to create that 1.41% HA/HE. These continued declarations are unsupported and can be viewed as "guarantees" by the unknowing and gullible.

The "establishment" craps community continues to rely and pontificate that this "math" is ABSOLUTE and UNDENIABLE just because it is there when in fact and practice the vast majority of play (over 70%) occurs after point establishment where the real HA/HE overtakes that puny 1.41% and can cause the player multiple and large losses during any given session.
Quote: Dieter

Once the dice are rolled your bet cannot be withdrawn until the wager is settled.
You're still subject to the 7 extra losses per 495 rolls, no matter what you do


Only "7 extra losses," is that your guarantee regardless of point outcomes? Sign me up right now.

Quote: Dieter

I wish you all the success and happiness you deserve in your pursuit of this endeavor.


Thank you. I know that you are sincere in those sentiments. I believe you to be a good person and one with high tolerance because your posts are courteous and respectful.

tuttigym
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 4:07:18 PM permalink
Quote: sabre

Yes. Because it's a simple wager that carries a 1.41% house edge. Obviously you can do better at baccarat but that game is boring. You can do better at blackjack but that takes memorization of basic strategy. Not to mention that the resolution of a pass line bet takes longer than both of those.


Mr. sabre: Yes, it is a simple wager to place, but unlike other wagers in other games of chance, the options and outcomes can be much more intricate and complicated not to mention the extreme flip in HA in 70+% of play due to point establishment. Other gambling venues do not offer additional or optional wagers during each play as does craps. The additional and/or optional wagers during any given hand are then directly tied to the success or failure of the PL bet.

Are these fair statements?

tuttigym
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson 
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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July 3rd, 2021 at 4:11:44 PM permalink
Tuttigym is there anyone who agrees with you? If there is please have them join the discussion.

But if you cant find anyone who agrees with you then please understand this subject has been exhausted.

It's been exhausted because you dont understand what the house edge means.

Here's a hint: your personal results might never match the house edge in craps. Never ever.
sabre
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 4:31:34 PM permalink
No, they aren't fair statements. The additional wagers, other than the passline odds bet, are in no way, shape or form tied to the success or failure of the PL bet. They are independent bets. They are resolved based on their own criteria. They have zero effect on the house edge of the PL bet you already made. Those bets (except the odds bet) carry their own house edge that is greater than 0%.
tuttigym
tuttigym
Joined: Feb 12, 2010
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July 3rd, 2021 at 4:37:44 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Tuttigym is there anyone who agrees with you? If there is please have them join the discussion.

But if you cant find anyone who agrees with you then please understand this subject has been exhausted.

It's been exhausted because you dont understand what the house edge means

.

Mr. Mendelson: You are so angry. You need to relax, take a deep breath, kick back, and smell the pot roast.
Are you old enough to remember the "science" and "math" that declared the Earth to be the center of the universe or the Earth was flat, or that man could never fly? Well I am here to inform you that that "math" and "science" was wrong. So.............

Quote: AlanMendelson

Here's a hint: your personal results might never match the house edge in craps. Never ever.


See, now you got it. You have acknowledged that the house edge is unattainable in the real world of craps play. Thank you. Perhaps you can find "someone" whose "personal results" has matched house edge in craps.

tuttigym
Dieter
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Dieter
Joined: Jul 23, 2014
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July 3rd, 2021 at 4:43:26 PM permalink
Quote: tuttigym

The key word you have used is 'EXPECTED." Real world craps with "random" rolls do not/have not produced documented results that mirror the possibility of playing 495 hands/PL bets consecutive or not with that "expected" outcome. Just because there are 495 possible ways to win and lose PL bets doesn't mean that it can happen in such a way as to create that 1.41% HA/HE.



I believe this excerpt of a fascinating documentary about a well known historical gambler may be of interest.

https://youtu.be/3PzY_ro13UE


He was a noted 21 player, but I believe he was also known to throw dice.


edit: amend youtube embed
Last edited by: Dieter on Jul 4, 2021
May the cards fall in your favor.

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