dice landing on top of each other

Wiz:

I read that you posted about how you were told that two dice came to rest upon each other twice within six hours at a craps table at Red Rock.

You even attached pics (see below).

A couple questions:

Who told you about it, and how reliable a reporter would you consider them to be?

Who took the pictures, and when were they taken?

This is probably a dumb question, but I don't really play craps. Does that count as a valid roll? Or is it voided?

(A quick google search gave conflicting results making me even more curious).

To answer your question, the one who sent me the pictures and story was Alan Mendelson.

Before you laugh, he provided the names of dealers and the time/place-stamps of the pictures. This is nowhere near as unlikely as the 18 yo's.

I asked some craps players and dealers about this. Here is what they said about how often they say is:

A.E.: Three times in 15 years of dealing craps, including twice in one week.
L.D: Zero times in 23 years dealing. To be honest, this dealer would probably only remember those throws that went down a woman's cleavage or something like that.
A.H: One time in about 650,000 throws.

Alan says he played about six hours that morning.

Here is my table of rolls per hour:

Rolls per Hour in Craps:

Players Rolls per hour
1 249
3 216
5 144
7 135
9 123
11 102

Source: https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/craps/general/.

If we take out LD's lack of data, the probability of the dice landing on each other is about one in a million.

Alan was playing early in the morning, so the table was probability running fast. In six hours, he probably saw about 1,200 throws.

I put the probability of seeing two stacks in 1,200 throws at about one in 1.4 million.

Has anyone else on the forum seen this happen? I have not, but I don't play craps often.

Quote: Gandler

This is probably a dumb question, but I don't really play craps. Does that count as a valid roll? Or is it voided?

Alan said it counted as a "no roll" at the Red Rock.

Thankfully, I wasn’t drinking upon the mention of 18 yo’s, don’t forget, in a row!

One time in college, I drunkenly threw a beer bottle at a brick wall. Instead of breaking, it bounced off the wall and landed upright.

I figure that is about the same odds.

Wizard.

Keywords... "I am TOLD"

Please investigate and interview the dealers, pit bosses etc.

Quote: AxelWolf

Wizard.

Keywords... "I am TOLD"

Please investigate and interview the dealers, pit bosses etc.

I plan to the next time I'm there in the morning.

How could you get a pic of that so quickly the first time? Before the phone comes out wouldn't the dice be swept?

Quote: Wizard

I plan to the next time I'm there in the morning.

By then it will have been 3 times in a row.

Quote: Wizard

To answer your question, the one who sent me the pictures and story was Alan Mendelson.

Before you laugh, he provided the names of dealers and the time/place-stamps of the pictures. This is nowhere near as unlikely as the 18 yo's.

I asked some craps players and dealers about this. Here is what they said about how often they say is:

A.E.: Three times in 15 years of dealing craps, including twice in one week.
L.D: Zero times in 23 years dealing. To be honest, this dealer would probably only remember those throws that went down a woman's cleavage or something like that.
A.H: One time in about 650,000 throws.

Alan says he played about six hours that morning.

Here is my table of rolls per hour:

Rolls per Hour in Craps:

Players Rolls per hour
1 249
3 216
5 144
7 135
9 123
11 102

Source: https://wizardofodds.com/ask-the-wizard/craps/general/.

If we take out LD's lack of data, the probability of the dice landing on each other is about one in a million.

Alan was playing early in the morning, so the table was probability running fast. In six hours, he probably saw about 1,200 throws.

I put the probability of seeing two stacks in 1,200 throws at about one in 1.4 million.

Has anyone else on the forum seen this happen? I have not, but I don't play craps often.

I dealt craps for two years I saw it happen once it was a no roll.

Quote: AxelWolf

By then it will have been 3 times in a row.

Everything can be faked.

There is no evidence that Axel will accept that can dispute what he believes.

Quote: Johnzimbo

How could you get a pic of that so quickly the first time? Before the phone comes out wouldn't the dice be swept?

Alan said the dealers let him take the picture.

Thanks for the info Wiz.

So why no pictures, names of dealers at CP after about ten yo’s?

Quote: coachbelly

Everything can be faked.

There is no evidence that Axel will accept that can dispute what he believes.

I didn't dispute this, I think it's possible, I'm just saying that stories can grow as time goes on, especially when it's an "I AM TOLD" type thing.

First of all I want to thank Wizard for lifting my voluntary suspension so I can answer your questions.

Let me say, first of all, that I learned my lesson from reporting that 18 yos in a row were thrown by a random shooter at Caesars years ago. I regret I didnt realize the significance of it and I regret I immediately didnt take names and demand the tape from the eye. I learned my lesson. That's why I jumped into action this time.

First, what you may be wondering is that I WAS THE SHOOTER in BOTH instances so I didnt delay the shooter by taking photos.

Yes. I provided Wizard with the photos with date and time stamps AND the names of the boxmen so he can verify everything. As I said, I learned my lesson. I dont want any more attacks on my credibility-- even now AFTER I retired from the TV news business.

There was a very good question on the forum:

"How could you get a pic of that so quickly the first time? Before the phone comes out wouldn't the dice be swept?"

Yes, as Wizard told you, I had permission from the dealers. And there's more to the story.

There was a delay in sweeping the stacked dice the first time because the stick person (a young gal) didnt know what to do or how to call it.

Vitou, the boxman, was not in his seat. He was printing out a marker in the pit. He had to be called over. I immediately went over to take the photo. The dealers said nothing about taking the photo. I said to them I had to get a photo.

None of the dealers at the table saw this happen before. But i knew the rule and I immediately said it was a no roll, however. Vitou confirmed it. He works nights and is there till about 4am.

The second time it happened there were only three players at the table including me. It was the same table. Red Rock has only one table open overnight.

Jeff the boxman actually gave me time to turn on my phone and to take the photos of the second stack. I had turned my phone off during the night when the battery was low.

Vitou and Jeff. The only boxman at Red Rock with those names.

There is another question regarding the 18 yos. I didnt have a cell phone with a camera then. I asked about the tape from the eye only after I was challenged and then it was too late, Caesars had re-used it. I knew only one dealer and he retired. I did not take names.

As I said I learned my lesson. I promise you I'll document anything and everything from now on as if my life depends on it. That goes for all the grief I've sustained over the false posts on another forum regarding crazy, angry posts my own son wrote about me.

One more thing. I did not intend to stack the dice. I was as surprised and amazed as anyone else. It had nothing to do with dice setting or even my throws with the dice together to the center of the back wall. They just happened.

Note: I edited this to correct a typo. Originally I typed Caesars refused it, but I corrected it to Caesars re-used the eye in the sky tape of the 18 yos.

Quote: Wizard

Alan said the dealers let him take the picture.

I may have been in error about this. Alan has asked to be released from his self-suspension to address your questions.

RIP Dan Lubin


5,692 posts and never an unkind word. A true gentlemen in every sense

Dan's posts on life and marriage

DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE , IT MATTERS HOW YOU ACT.
GOD LOOKS AT YOUR HEART AND LIVER, AND THE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.

MY WIFE IS FINE WITH THINGS I SAY NO. SHE SAYS NO, IT'S NO.
WE BOTH SAY NO, IT'S A PUSH. LIKE PAI GOW.

Quote: uknowwho

RIP Dan Lubin


5,692 posts and never an unkind word. A true gentlemen in every sense

Dan's posts on life and marriage

DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU BELIEVE , IT MATTERS HOW YOU ACT.
GOD LOOKS AT YOUR HEART AND LIVER, AND THE BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS.

MY WIFE IS FINE WITH THINGS I SAY NO. SHE SAYS NO, IT'S NO.
WE BOTH SAY NO, IT'S A PUSH. LIKE PAI GOW.

Nice sentiment, but not quite true.

Quote: paigowdan

... except for trolls on this board like Buzzard trying to start a pissing contest, as an argument starter.

source.

Hope you're doing well, Buzz.

Frankly, stacked dice is so rare, that if anyone asked for a brief pause to get a picture, that it would probably be allowed without question.

Quote: AlanMendelson

One more thing. I did not intend to stack the dice. I was as surprised and amazed as anyone else.

That’s comedy gold right there. I doubt even hard core dice setters would think that anyone could intentionally get the dice to land atop one another.

Quote: Wizard

Hope you're doing well, Buzz.

Ditto.

Yesterday was 4 years since Dan’s last post.

I miss you Dan.

Quote: Gandler

This is probably a dumb question, but I don't really play craps. Does that count as a valid roll? Or is it voided?

(A quick google search gave conflicting results making me even more curious).

Saw it happen 10 years ago at Harrahs Joliet. Box called no roll as if it were an every day occurence.

Has anyone ever seen the dice land stacked and on top of a chip?

Quote: Ace2

Has anyone ever seen the dice land stacked and on top of a chip?

No. But I've seen a player throw a chip to the stickman for a hardway bet and the chip hit a die in the air.

Quote: Ace2

Has anyone ever seen the dice land stacked and on top of a chip?

No, but I have seen one land on the digital limit sign.

Well it happened again today at Red Rock. I sent a photo to Wizard and I hope he posts it. The table crew allowed three of us at the table to take photos.

I’m not skeptical that it can happen. But I need to see actual video if the claim is that it is happening often. Because that’s makes it a much greater probability than I would imagine.

Doesn’t the landing have to be very delicate to neither bounce or slide off the bottom die?

By the way Red Rock stopped cleaning their dice with disinfectants which at times made their dice sticky.

It happened yesterday at table #2 at Red Rock at 12:22pm which is the time stamp on my photo.

The base dealer was Jack. The dice came to rest right in front of him behind his stacks of $1, $5, and $25 chips.

Wizard why dont YOU call Red Rock and ask them for the eye in the sky recording? If I do it I am sure I'll be challenged.

You do it, Wizard. Under normal circumstances tapes are maintained for only three days to a week.

Thanks for getting those pictures, Alan! I actually did this once as the shooter many moons ago in Reno. I don't recall exactly which casino -- we were staying at the Hilton (now GSR), but also gambled at some of the downtown casinos that day.

As I recall, they actually counted the roll -- the dealer lifted the top die and placed it on the felt, revealing the result of the bottom die. I don't remember what it was, exactly, but it was neither the point nor a seven. I remember thinking that it was an odd occurrence, but didn't realize exactly how rare it was at the time. In the 25 or so years of playing craps since, I have yet to see it happen again.

It also reminded me of Pass the Pigs, a party game I would play with friends and family. The game consisted of rolling two pig-shaped dice, and scoring points based on the orientation in which they landed. One of the rules was if the two pig-dice landed with one on top of and completely supported by the other, (which the rules stated was 'impossible') you are summarily thrown out of the game. I remember feeling fortunate that the casino did not employ this rule!

Another thing I remember about this session is that it was a $2 table, and during my turn as shooter, someone at the other end of the table placed a $1,000 pass line bet! Sorry to say, that roll ended with a 7-out.

Joeman, was there a boxman or any suit present when the dealer counted the stacked dice as a valid roll?

I just called Red Rock and asked them to put the eye video on YouTube. The director of casino operations was not available so I left a message on his voicemail giving the table number, date and time.

I'd love to see this posted by them on YouTube.

I regret never getting the tape from Caesars. It would have saved me years of grief.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Joeman, was there a boxman or any suit present when the dealer counted the stacked dice as a valid roll?

I want to say the boxman made the call, and instructed the dealer to "unstack" the dice. But it's been over 25 years, and I wasn't paying that much attention to who said what.

Unfortunately Red Rock says no to the video. The director of casino operations called me back and said unless the video was part of a court case they are prohibited to release it.

Surveillance videos that we've seen about arrests, etc., were made public as part of court cases.

He said he's seen it three times over his career.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Well it happened again today at Red Rock. I sent a photo to Wizard and I hope he posts it. The table crew allowed three of us at the table to take photos.

Here is Alan's photo.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I regret never getting the tape from Caesars. It would have saved me years of grief.

Didn't you divorce her?

The table looks dated. Why aren't there 46's all over the felt?

That's a brand new felt installed two days ago for Red Rocks 45th anniversary. Red Rock Resorts is the official name of Station Casinos.

Dice landed on top of each other...that happens, so do many other rare things. Unless the rare events help you gain an advantage, who cares? Sticky Dice, now you might have something.

Quote: AxelWolf

Dice landed on top of each other...that happens, so do many other rare things. Unless the rare events help you gain an advantage, who cares? Sticky Dice, now you might have something.

Some things are just interesting without being profitable.

It's like stopping to smell the roses.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Some things are just interesting without being profitable.

It's like stopping to smell the roses.

I believe that I have seen no fewer than 200,000 rolls and no more than 1,000,000 rolls of the dice. I gambled for no less than hour per day on craps exclusively for approximately seven years in Vegas.

The only time I had one die land atop the other, I had a $100 pass line at Buffalo Bills. The boxman on that occasion told me that I would never believe that he had seen it twice in the same day.

So given that there are two stories of dice landing on top of each other twice in one day, it stands to reason that
(a) it's true
(b) factors that might not be obvious increased the probability of this happening

There have been ZERO stories CONFIRMED about dice landing on top of one another twice in the same day.

But I can assure you that the boxman at Buffalo Bills who was on duty in December 2017 when I played last (I can get the date if it helps) recalls an event (in another state) where this happened twice in the same day.

On the occasion when I saw it happen, one dealer had never seen it, another dealer had not seen it in ten years, and the box man said he had seen it twice in the same day.

So responses were "all over the map" including one guy that sounded like a (redacted) liar.

Photos with dates, times and the names of two boxman were provided to Wizard when this happened twice in one day at Red Rock.

Now it's three times at Red Rock.

Are you saying any of these events is a lie, Ahigh?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Some things are just interesting without being profitable.

Like validating wild claims made online

I dont understand your point.

So allow me to ask again: are you calling any of these three reports a lie?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Photos with dates, times and the names of two boxman were provided to Wizard when this happened twice in one day at Red Rock.

Now it's three times at Red Rock.

Are you saying any of these events is a lie, Ahigh?

No, sir. I am pointing out your job.

Quote: Ahigh

No, sir. I am pointing out your job.

I still dont understand your point. But if you require proof details were provided that can easily be verified.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ahigh

No, sir. I am pointing out your job.

I still dont understand your point. But if you require proof details were provided that can easily be verified.

If you have satisfied the burden of proof to the group, I apologize for my misunderstanding.

My perception was that you were actively engaged in fallacy.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Some things are just interesting without being profitable.

It's like stopping to smell the roses.

I have never thought to compare anything in gambling to stopping and smelling roses.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have never thought to compare anything in gambling to stopping and smelling roses.

I guess the casino ladies with too much perfume leaving a vapor trail failed to bring that to mind.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have never thought to compare anything in gambling to stopping and smelling roses.

Well then... it's like stopping from hunting for abandoned multipliers to look at the cocktail waitresses.

You do look, don't you?