Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 2nd, 2019 at 5:49:09 AM permalink
Hello All, I am an avid craps player Mohegan Sun/Foxwoods really enjoy going to the Atlantis Bahamas and am barely on their radar the last 2 visits.,As it is insanely expensive to visit the Atlantis my question is would their be a way for myself and my partner to play opposite, Pass don't pass, come don't come or any combination of opposite play to achieve a break even scenario ? At what dollar amount would we need to put out there per roll to at least receive full Food and Beverage comp for 4 days stay ? With offers for a return trips and discounted room rates, also does depositing "upfront" money get you any further consideration I could deposit 6 or 7 thousand ahead of time and does that make sense? As it is I will be staying at the Cove which is their most expensive property on site. I am not a rated player at Mohegan or Foxwoods as I do not play enough to qualify for any top tier status. I am however a Pearl Mlife holder from a recent Vegas visit and a few vists to MGM Springfield Mass,might get me to Gold status by my next trip to Atlantis in July any opinion/ experience at the Atlantis would be hugely appreciated.
sabre
sabre
Joined: Aug 16, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 1172
February 2nd, 2019 at 6:04:04 AM permalink
Playing the pass and don't pass simultaneously doesn't produce a break even scenario. You're going to lose at the average of the pass/don't pass house edge.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 2nd, 2019 at 6:15:12 AM permalink
Thank you, is there a offsetting system you can think of that would achieve close to zero loss, with a partner ?
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9397
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10
February 2nd, 2019 at 6:30:36 AM permalink
Quote: Topkat10

Thank you, is there a offsetting system you can think of that would achieve close to zero loss, with a partner ?

Offsetting systems don't work ... the bets offered by the game all have negative expectation. When you look at the EV* of bet combinations, the total EV equals the sum of the EV of each bet. Thus no matter how you devise your bet combinations, you keep adding to the sum [the sum of adding negative amount + negative amount]

*EV = expected value
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4343
February 2nd, 2019 at 7:32:18 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Offsetting systems don't work ... the bets offered by the game all have negative expectation. When you look at the EV* of bet combinations, the total EV equals the sum of the EV of each bet. Thus no matter how you devise your bet combinations, you keep adding to the sum [the sum of adding negative amount + negative amount]

*EV = expected value



Sure but it reduces variance.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
DeMango
DeMango
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
  • Threads: 36
  • Posts: 2958
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10
February 2nd, 2019 at 10:01:05 AM permalink
Losing one half bet per 36 rolls is not a bad way to go. Thatís the vig on a do/donít. With two players it works on the line, not sure, when odds/ lay get factored in, to keep results even between players.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO 
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 121
  • Posts: 10388
February 2nd, 2019 at 10:06:36 AM permalink
It is easy to figure out exactly how much you and your partner will lose playing opposite each other. It is hard to figure out exactly how much in comps you will each get for doing so. I got the Caesar's credit card and by charging a little you get to Platinum. Believe it or not, you get free days at Atlantis just by being a lowly Platinum. I do not recall how many days, what blackout days there are, etc.... But if you are going back to Atlantis I recommend you at least investigate.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 2nd, 2019 at 11:24:12 AM permalink
Thanks, I did see where if you are an Mlife Gold you can switch to CET and get immediate Diamond status, that earns you 4 comp nights at Atlantis in the Beach Tower, you will be responsible for resort fees, not a bad deal but I can only travel on major holidays and those are typically blacked out ( I called). I can easily afford the Cove, it would be nice to get my F and B comped for the stay 4 days 3 nights I would be going with my son and daughter , the losses by my math would be minimal compared to the F and B costs at some of the finer restaurants on property,,dinner for 3 every night one breakfast and a few lunches, I would be betting 100 passline with 200 odds 300 total no additional bets, my son would do the same on the don't pass, no additional bets, he would not have a players card but I would submit mine, 4 hours of play per night 300 per hand 3 nights, I did stay there and played over labor day 2 nights 3 days bought in for about 500 each time passline 15 30 odds and the 6 and 8 15 each press now and again held my own did not rack up too many hours strictly craps no slots or BJ but at checkout went to the casino floor with my folio and asked if they could do anything , they took off 250.00 in F and B which was nice they also gave me a 50 dollar slot voucher which I stuck in a five dollar slot and rung it up for 1,600.00 on the second pull ! Insanely lucky as I never play slots, any way thanks for your feedback I will continue to research, any savings at that property is a bonus, I would also hope for future invites at discounted rates not sure 300 per hand would achieve that, was hoping for more feedback on this site
Xtina
Xtina
Joined: Jan 17, 2019
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 12
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10
February 2nd, 2019 at 5:21:32 PM permalink
You can get status matched to CET diamond but the match doesn't give you the 15,000 tier credits you need to go to Atlantis for free (/total-rewards/tr-partners/atlantis-paradise-island). You get diamond status but 0 tier credits. I know because I was status matched to CET diamond via my Wyndham Rewards platinum, which I got by matching Hilton Honors gold to Wyndham Rewards, which I got through the AMEX Platinum card (convoluted, but it works). /total-rewards/tr-partners/wyndham_resorts Anyway, status matching the diamond is helpful if you want to waive the resort fees, but other than that for the most part you actually have to have the correct number of tier credits to take advantage of the diamond perks, including the luxury casino lounges.

EDIT: my links are broken because I'm a new member, but you can verify this information with some simple searching.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 549
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10boymimbo
February 2nd, 2019 at 5:29:13 PM permalink
I hope you factored in that the Floor Supervisors will see your do-don't play (they can figure out that the 2 players are a partnership) and may decrease the value of your rating accordingly.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 2nd, 2019 at 5:58:19 PM permalink
Thank you that was going to be another question I had.
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4343
February 2nd, 2019 at 6:00:12 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

I hope you factored in that the Floor Supervisors will see your do-don't play (they can figure out that the 2 players are a partnership) and may decrease the value of your rating accordingly.

This. Iíll be surprised is this plan works.

As a data point, I was in Atlantis a few months ago. Playing $25 or $50 PL and either 3 comes or across for $260/280. Plus black chip BJ. Rated for probably 12-15 hours over 4 days. Ended up getting all charges other than prepaid room comped. Since, have gotten offers for free 4 night stay at Cove.

(It was a lot of charges comped, was there with family and other families and paid for a lot of dinners and dolphin activities, etc. Was told by host they couldnít comp the prepaid room as it was over a holiday. Not sure if thatís a real policy or not.)
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 549
February 2nd, 2019 at 6:17:31 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

This. Iíll be surprised is this plan works.

As a data point, I was in Atlantis a few months ago. Playing $25 or $50 PL and either 3 comes or across for $260/280. Plus black chip BJ. Rated for probably 12-15 hours over 4 days. Ended up getting all charges other than prepaid room comped. Since, have gotten offers for free 4 night stay at Cove.

(It was a lot of charges comped, was there with family and other families and paid for a lot of dinners and dolphin activities, etc. Was told by host they couldnít comp the prepaid room as it was over a holiday. Not sure if thatís a real policy or not.)



If you book a room from an outside site like Expedia.com, you will not be able to get it comped. Always book directly with the hotel and then at the end of your trip, you have a chance of having all or some of the room picked up.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 3rd, 2019 at 3:40:52 AM permalink
Excellent thank you very much, I typically play the same way you do but not at those levels and no BJ, really appreciate the info as you can testify to the expense associated with a 4 day stay, been going there for years and fully understand the cost, but just recently started playing more craps, I mentioned I received some small F and B comp over labor day, definetly will charge everything back to the room.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 3rd, 2019 at 3:41:42 AM permalink
Will do thank you for the info
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9397
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10
February 3rd, 2019 at 4:38:03 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

Quote: odiousgambit

Offsetting systems don't work ... the bets offered by the game all have negative expectation. When you look at the EV* of bet combinations, the total EV equals the sum of the EV of each bet. Thus no matter how you devise your bet combinations, you keep adding to the sum [the sum of adding negative amount + negative amount]

*EV = expected value



Sure but it reduces variance.

I always say you want variance, but I'll concede the variance can be too high to suit me as well. But there are better ways to reduce variance than hedging. And see below.
Quote: FCBLComish

I hope you factored in that the Floor Supervisors will see your do-don't play (they can figure out that the 2 players are a partnership) and may decrease the value of your rating accordingly.

This is a danger if you play the doey-don't you-yourself only, but it has to be of minimal concern if you are careful at all. A bigger point to make is that there is absolutely no reason for the pit to care if you are hedging your bets or not, not even when it comes to comps. You are earning those comps, in full for the amounts bet, when you hedge just as much as when you don't hedge.

As far as comps go, I can't speak to what you might get, but it would be the same if you both played right side or dark side. It is possible to be overcomped, so if this is in the cards you might argue that this is when hedging pays off. I might agree if you are overcomped to the degree you are actually money ahead in freeplay.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
RonC
RonC
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
February 3rd, 2019 at 5:21:28 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

I hope you factored in that the Floor Supervisors will see your do-don't play (they can figure out that the 2 players are a partnership) and may decrease the value of your rating accordingly.



This is a possibility, but the pass/don't pass bets both have a house edge so the house can still win "in the long run" just as it would if the two bettors did not know each other. The odds bets have no house advantage and might not be rated at all, depending on the casino.

Is there a way at that casino to "test the waters" for one period of time and then asking some questions?
SOOPOO
SOOPOO 
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
  • Threads: 121
  • Posts: 10388
Thanks for this post from:
RonC
February 3rd, 2019 at 5:40:40 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

I hope you factored in that the Floor Supervisors will see your do-don't play (they can figure out that the 2 players are a partnership) and may decrease the value of your rating accordingly.



Then that floor supervisor is an idiot. The do-don't players are guaranteeing the casino a win. Not only that, it is quite easy to figure out the 'theoretical loss' for those players. Moreso than a 'regular' player who varies his bets. And thus comp MORE accurately.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 127
  • Posts: 3907
February 3rd, 2019 at 7:00:42 AM permalink
Not sure if playing odds makes sense to achieve what you want it to.

Do they come at all based on odds bets? (They shouldnít)
unJon
unJon
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4343
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10
February 3rd, 2019 at 7:10:11 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Not sure if playing odds makes sense to achieve what you want it to.

Do they come at all based on odds bets? (They shouldnít)

They donít per my discussions with them. I also think itís a mistake to not have his son rated. Heís losing half the comps for the donít play. In my one experience, they are good about calculating comps and there is a casino service station on the floor with a computer and they look you up and tell you how many comps dollars you earned.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 127
  • Posts: 3907
February 3rd, 2019 at 7:22:30 AM permalink
Quote: unJon

They donít per my discussions with them. I also think itís a mistake to not have his son rated. Heís losing half the comps for the donít play. In my one experience, they are good about calculating comps and there is a casino service station on the floor with a computer and they look you up and tell you how many comps dollars you earned.



I can definitely see the issue with one playing pass for $100, one playing dp. No odds. Same last name.

The casino should frown upon giving big comps for that.
RonC
RonC
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10odiousgambitgamerfreak
February 3rd, 2019 at 7:34:30 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

I can definitely see the issue with one playing pass for $100, one playing dp. No odds. Same last name.

The casino should frown upon giving big comps for that.



Why should they frown on giving big comps for their play?

They are both playing bets with a house edge. Playing both of them, either alone or with someone else, does not change the house edge for each bet.
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 127
  • Posts: 3907
February 3rd, 2019 at 7:42:28 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Why should they frown on giving big comps for their play?

They are both playing bets with a house edge. Playing both of them, either alone or with someone else, does not change the house edge for each bet.



Then their comps are too high.

Itís about a $30 per hour loss each. So if they play 4 hours each, casino should give them about $40-$50 in comps.

Not sure if it matters, but wizard does agree with me on this one.
RonC
RonC
Joined: Jan 18, 2010
  • Threads: 40
  • Posts: 4874
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10boymimbo
February 3rd, 2019 at 8:10:35 AM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Then their comps are too high.

Itís about a $30 per hour loss each. So if they play 4 hours each, casino should give them about $40-$50 in comps.

Not sure if it matters, but wizard does agree with me on this one.



I think it would take a lot of hours to get "big comps" at the level of play mentioned if odds are not rated.

It isn't that I don't think it is possible that they will reduce the comps, but I don't see why they would do it. Boymimbo mentioned in one thread the house edge being halfway between the two individual ones for this betting pattern.

Of course, casinos pretty much do whatever they want with comp values...
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 11099
Thanks for this post from:
Topkat10ontariodealer
February 3rd, 2019 at 9:09:16 AM permalink
Casinos DO consider this cheating!

They also consider card counting cheating and taking free offers with minimal play cheating so take the above statement with a grain of salt

The best thing to do is kind of offset the offset. I found they arent smart enough to figure that one out

In Roulette for example I was able to fool the live dealer and pitbosses by having player A wager one large bet outside low thirds while player B wagered outside upper half and inside the 6 numbers and zero

Naturally everything worked out in the wagering so I had zero variance. They wont sit there counting the complicated math of that setup in my experience
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 3rd, 2019 at 11:01:23 AM permalink
Like that even better I would consider that over craps as roulette comps certainly are higher , I have played roulette before can you just give me a wider explanation , and that is with a single zero wheel ??
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 11099
February 3rd, 2019 at 11:22:15 AM permalink
Quote: Topkat10

Like that even better I would consider that over craps as roulette comps certainly are higher , I have played roulette before can you just give me a wider explanation , and that is with a single zero wheel ??



You can do single or double. You lose 2x as fast doing double but some places rate you 2x in consideration
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 549
February 5th, 2019 at 6:23:13 PM permalink
Quote: RonC

This is a possibility, but the pass/don't pass bets both have a house edge so the house can still win "in the long run" just as it would if the two bettors did not know each other. The odds bets have no house advantage and might not be rated at all, depending on the casino.

Is there a way at that casino to "test the waters" for one period of time and then asking some questions?




Pass/Don't Pass carries a fairly low house edge (1.41%). If you are earning more in comps than the house has in theoretical win, they will cut you off Try doing this on roulette with a 5.25% edge. The casino won't care.

There is actually an AP play that I see all the time that is based on this, but if I spill it, I am sure all the APs on this board will be mad. I may or may not spill it by PM. Depends on who is asking.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 549
February 5th, 2019 at 6:26:50 PM permalink
Quote: FinsRule

Then their comps are too high.

Itís about a $30 per hour loss each. So if they play 4 hours each, casino should give them about $40-$50 in comps.

Not sure if it matters, but wizard does agree with me on this one.



Hmmm.. .Assuming I agree with your theoretical win of $30 each, then we have $240 of theoretical. That would get you $24 from many places. $12 each. I do not think many places are giving close to 25% of theo on craps.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
FinsRule
FinsRule
Joined: Dec 23, 2009
  • Threads: 127
  • Posts: 3907
February 5th, 2019 at 6:53:52 PM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

Hmmm.. .Assuming I agree with your theoretical win of $30 each, then we have $240 of theoretical. That would get you $24 from many places. $12 each. I do not think many places are giving close to 25% of theo on craps.



I guess should was defined poorly. I think 25% should be the comp rate. Not saying it is.
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
Joined: Feb 3, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 298
February 8th, 2019 at 9:54:35 PM permalink
Atlantis really isnít the best place for comps and benefits. They give none and any you get is sort of worked out after your play. Once you get on their radar theyíll give you a date range that you can go and theyíll give you $600 freeplay for the trip, at least thatís what Iíve gotten. Future trips are booked through independent hosts. Itís really just a place to try to use the casino to get a cheap vacation. Everything is expensive there starting with the $45 cab fare from the airport.
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
February 9th, 2019 at 2:37:22 AM permalink
Quote: FCBLComish

If you book a room from an outside site like Expedia.com, you will not be able to get it comped. Always book directly with the hotel and then at the end of your trip, you have a chance of having all or some of the room picked up.



Correct. Booking with anyone besides the operator means that the operator has already contracted at a certain rate which is money that they can't recover.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
February 9th, 2019 at 3:03:51 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

This is a possibility, but the pass/don't pass bets both have a house edge so the house can still win "in the long run" just as it would if the two bettors did not know each other. The odds bets have no house advantage and might not be rated at all, depending on the casino.

Is there a way at that casino to "test the waters" for one period of time and then asking some questions?



I challenge that assertion. If you play doey/don't you will always lose every time a 12 is rolled and break even the rest of the time.

You'll need to play black to get that kind of comp, in which case you are going to lose $100 every time a 12 is rolled on a come out. Given about 18 come out rolls per hour you would lose in average about $50. Of course the variance on that is extremely high. Over 16 hours you would be looking at 288 come out rolls and 8 losses on the 12. There's a 10.9% probability that you could see 12 or more 12s during that time. And I'm not even factoring in the variance of the number of come outs.

I guess the question is whether that variance and the guaranteed loss is worth it for the free nights. It's not particularly good for the soul to know that you are going to lose a bunch of money and time and hope that the CZR gods find it appropriate to gift you a room. That in itself is a questionable gamble.

Bacarrat is another game where you play player/banker offsetting with alot more decisions quicker with a much lower HE than single zero BJ. And it's fairly mindless. It's probably the best way to get your comps via the offsetting route.
Last edited by: boymimbo on Feb 9, 2019
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
boymimbo
boymimbo
Joined: Nov 12, 2009
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 5994
February 9th, 2019 at 3:08:39 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

I think it would take a lot of hours to get "big comps" at the level of play mentioned if odds are not rated.

It isn't that I don't think it is possible that they will reduce the comps, but I don't see why they would do it. Boymimbo mentioned in one thread the house edge being halfway between the two individual ones for this betting pattern.

Of course, casinos pretty much do whatever they want with comp values...



And there are plenty of threads about CZR being very stingy on their awarding of TCs/comps at table games (something like 2% of theo for blackjack). CZR was known for being good at giving future offers via mailers. That gives them the control of being able to reward rooms during low season.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 3:56:06 AM permalink
Thanks Sandy, I have been many times and fully aware of all the expenses associated with a stay there,i never got their players card over the years because I didn't play arted playing craps over the last few years at Mohegan/ Foxwoods, really enjoy playing, my income allows me now to stay at the Cove and I will be taking my two adult kids over 4th of July. The last time I was there was over Labor day with my son played craps avererage buy in was 500 a session multiple sessions maybe 5 -7 hours total for 3 days, at my request they took off roughly 250 of F and B and gave me a 50 dollar free play slot voucher, never received any offers for a return discounted room rate My big question are there any offsetting systems that would achieve a zero result involving 2 people at the same table? Someone responded with a single zero roulette system that would work but did not give specifics, Craps pass don't pass hedge the 12 on the comeout ? I could certainly just play at a higher limit by myself and hope for the best, also does making a deposit of "upfront money" get you any further consideration ? I suppose at the end of the day it all comes down to how much you lay out there, was hoping to get on their radar for discounted rates in the future thanks for your reply
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 11099
February 9th, 2019 at 3:57:04 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I challenge that assertion. If you play doey/don't you will always lose every time a 12 is rolled and break even the rest of the time.

You'll need to play black to get that kind of comp, in which case you are going to lose $100 every time a 12 is rolled on a come out. Given about 18 come out rolls per hour you would lose in average about $50. Of course the variance on that is extremely high. Over 16 hours you would be looking at 288 come out rolls and 8 losses on the 12. There's a 10.9% probability that you could see 12 or more 12s during that time. And I'm not even factoring in the variance of the number of come outs.

I guess the question is whether that variance and the guaranteed loss is worth it for the free nights. It's not particularly good for the soul to know that you are going to lose a bunch of money and time and hope that the CZR gods find it appropriate to gift you a room. That in itself is a questionable gamble.

Bacarrat is another game where you play player/banker offsetting with alot more decisions quicker with a much lower HE than single zero BJ. And it's fairly mindless. It's probably the best way to get your comps via the offsetting route.



It might be worth it if done at e-craps

Cet properties that have e-craps I have seen its $200 per players point (compared to $5 at slots and $10 at Blackjack) so they must be aware of the move and that it does work at their e-craps hence the prohibitive earnings

BUT if they are counting the odds bets in thhe wager it might still be worth it especially if all they are going for are some cheap rooms. $30 doey/dont backed by full odds. But I havent tested that so im just theorizing
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 4:09:33 AM permalink
Really great info thanks, not really familiar with Baccarat and pretty sure my 24 year old son would rather be chasing down tanlines than sitting at a Baccarat table, he also likes craps and that attracts a good looking crowd, so I was hoping to enlist his assistance there, one other possibility would be to play craps for an hour at higher levels he plays the DP I play the pass just to get rated and then break off from there and reduce down, my question is what would be the best way to set that up Pass don't pass but take no odds ? I don't suppose hedging the 12 on the come out makes sense, someone mentioned a zero end result for roulette but didn't give specifics on that system, also would you know if deposing say 5,000.00 in upfront money helps getting any further consideration? Appreciate you taking the time to reply.
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
  • Threads: 99
  • Posts: 14246
February 9th, 2019 at 5:58:27 AM permalink
I've been told by a couple of hosts that establishing a line of credit does help with future offers. Whether it helps with the trip on which you establish it, I can't say. Whether front money helps, I also can't say, but it certainly couldn't hurt. I don't think 5-6k is a significant amount of front money, though. JMHO. Miminum of 10K to make a statement like you're trying to make.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 7:15:55 AM permalink
Thanks Beach, appreciate your reply and insight
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9397
February 9th, 2019 at 7:40:16 AM permalink
Topkat, you've been getting some replies that suggest doey-don't or punto-banco* hedging work well as offsetting bets. That some casinos evidently consider such hedging as cheating is taken as evidence it works by some. The reality is that hedging does not work to offset bets at all, not against the house edge and not to achieve better comping. The pit people who worry about it simply don't understand the facts. I agree *you* should worry about it if you try it, because there are pit bosses who would dock your comps if they knew you were doing it - these same ignorant pit people. 

Some comments are from those who are simply attracted to the idea of two-player hedging in and of itself. Granted, if two people are going to be playing, you no longer have the argument against hedging that criticizes betting twice as much all against the house edge. Two-player has problems of its own, though, and surely you yourself can name these possible problems. 

*I prefer using 'punto and banco' instead of 'player and banker' when writing about baccarat, as you have to otherwise be on guard against confusing player-the-person with player-the-bet ... there's a similar problem with the word 'banker'
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
Thanks for this post from:
odiousgambit
February 9th, 2019 at 8:01:55 AM permalink
Thanks for your opinion makes total sense,
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 11099
February 9th, 2019 at 8:15:28 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Topkat, you've been getting some replies that suggest doey-don't or punto-banco* hedging work well as offsetting bets. That some casinos evidently consider such hedging as cheating is taken as evidence it works by some. The reality is that hedging does not work to offset bets at all, not against the house edge and not to achieve better comping. The pit people who worry about it simply don't understand the facts. I agree *you* should worry about it if you try it, because there are pit bosses who would dock your comps if they knew you were doing it - these same ignorant pit people. 

Some comments are from those who are simply attracted to the idea of two-player hedging in and of itself. Granted, if two people are going to be playing, you no longer have the argument against hedging that criticizes betting twice as much all against the house edge. Two-player has problems of its own, though, and surely you yourself can name these possible problems. 

*I prefer using 'punto and banco' instead of 'player and banker' when writing about baccarat, as you have to otherwise be on guard against confusing player-the-person with player-the-bet ... there's a similar problem with the word 'banker'



Odious

To say hedging doesn't work to earn better comps is simply wrong

I think you are examining it solely from house edge. In this respect you are correct. The expected losses are the same

What you are discounting is the variance. And its the variance that is MORE important

Ex. Wagering $200 pass/dont pass has an expected loss of $200 only when the 12 hits.

Wagering one side it is conceivable to lose $2000 in an hour (possiblly less). Since time is a factor at tables you getting rated for one hour would have a direct affect on your comps vs.being rated for 4 hours or more. Is it possible it takes longer to lose $2000? Of course but thats variance

Without variance it is GUARANTEED you will last for hours. And be comped commensurate with that (assuming the hosts dont realize the hedge and discount your rating)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 10:10:08 AM permalink
Thank you, I have played online practice and it actually reinforced what you outlined here, and that is with playing really quickly, at the destination I have mentioned it is surely a slow go in the evenings as the tables are always full especially over 4th of July might even be lucky to get a spot at the rail, so offsetting bets even for an hour at 100 or 200 would certainly get recorded as such I would imagine. So best case scenario,, strictly 100 on pass (one player) 100 on DP (other player ) no free odds on either ? hedge the 12 for 5 bucks every come out ?, is there any other combination of bets that would insure close to zero outcome ? Another idea as to not raise too many eyebrows would be 50 on Pass with 100 free odds and then place the 6-8 for 24 each no pressing, On the DP side 50 DP with free odds and then a 50 dollar DC bet. Player with the card buys in for 2,000.00 Also make an upfront money deposit for 5,000, I am just not as sophisticated as the posters here especially yourself with regard to EV, Variance, house odds etc etc but I am learning , thanks so much.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 10:23:41 AM permalink
Actually the other thought was Pass line 100 no free odds place the 6 and 8 for 24 each no pressing hedge the 12 for 5 bucks

Don't Pass for 100 no free odds place 1 DC bet for 50.00
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9397
February 9th, 2019 at 11:53:27 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Without variance it is GUARANTEED you will last for hours. And be comped commensurate with that (assuming the hosts dont realize the hedge and discount your rating)

Without variance, you go from a chance to win to no chance to win. What you are describing is a pure state of "playing for comps" which is generally given a thumbs down. But nobody gives thumbs down if you get over-comped enough. Perhaps it is true that the pit starts creaming their jeans at that kind of action and gives you way more than your theo down there in those parts. I have my doubts.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: ďThanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!Ē   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
  • Threads: 290
  • Posts: 11099
February 9th, 2019 at 12:05:18 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

Without variance, you go from a chance to win to no chance to win. What you are describing is a pure state of "playing for comps" which is generally given a thumbs down. But nobody gives thumbs down if you get over-comped enough. Perhaps it is true that the pit starts creaming their jeans at that kind of action and gives you way more than your theo down there in those parts. I have my doubts.



Correct

The play is not to win but to lose

Get overcomped

Clean up (win) on the tail end

Which is winning in my book (no pun intended referring to my actual book as yet to be published)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Lovecomps
Lovecomps
Joined: Aug 12, 2018
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 427
February 9th, 2019 at 12:58:58 PM permalink
My two cents:

If you're actually going to do this, then I've always believed that all the play should go onto the card of a single player. If you're trying to get a room then it's more likely that you'd get it with one person with higher play then two who are "unrelated" with half the play.

Despite the extra edge that you'd gain for comps in the eyes of the casino by playing roulette over craps, you're probably better off at craps because it's easier to blend in at a crowded table and not have your scheme recognized (although I doubt that anyone in charge would care).

It's probably easier to do it with a buddy because a) if you're betting heavily enough to try to get good comps and the other person presents a card with the same last name as your own then it will attract attention.

Do it downtown, especially if you're going to use blacks. Black chips on the strip won't even get any attention.

The one thing that nobody has brought up, at least that I have seen, has nothing to do with any EV or mathematical angle at all. Even if you can go hours and hours without hitting that 12, the whole endeavor is BORING!!! Hours and hours to get a free meal or a room and drinks at the table that are free anyway? If you're a known player then you'd probably already have the room upfront anyway. I'd happily throw off the equation by placing a 6 or 8 just to keep myself awake. The bets might even win and protect your bankroll for a little while from that dreaded 12.
Last edited by: Lovecomps on Feb 9, 2019
The best things in life are not free.
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
Joined: Feb 3, 2015
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 298
February 9th, 2019 at 1:07:37 PM permalink
Quote: Topkat10

Thanks Sandy, I have been many times and fully aware of all the expenses associated with a stay there,i never got their players card over the years because I didn't play arted playing craps over the last few years at Mohegan/ Foxwoods, really enjoy playing, my income allows me now to stay at the Cove and I will be taking my two adult kids over 4th of July. The last time I was there was over Labor day with my son played craps avererage buy in was 500 a session multiple sessions maybe 5 -7 hours total for 3 days, at my request they took off roughly 250 of F and B and gave me a 50 dollar free play slot voucher, never received any offers for a return discounted room rate My big question are there any offsetting systems that would achieve a zero result involving 2 people at the same table? Someone responded with a single zero roulette system that would work but did not give specifics, Craps pass don't pass hedge the 12 on the comeout ? I could certainly just play at a higher limit by myself and hope for the best, also does making a deposit of "upfront money" get you any further consideration ? I suppose at the end of the day it all comes down to how much you lay out there, was hoping to get on their radar for discounted rates in the future thanks for your reply

Itís possible what happened is that they took off part of your room bill but because you werenít playing rated on a players card it didnít trigger in their system. Itís also possible that they donít target table players for offers. Iím not sure. I played slots there. I donít think your idea of offsetting bets is the best approach. Also keep in mind if you do that, youíre splitting the action between 2 cards and it sounds like youíre trying to get as much action on one card to trigger offers. Next time you go, get a players card. Any future trips will be booked on that players card number and when you go again your room key is connected to that card. Depositing $5000 as you suggest may work. I would suggest playing $50-75 a hand on blackjack. Their rules there are decent. Find a slow dealer and you have a decent chance at breaking even. Youíre going to have to take risk, thatís the whole point but I believe youíll lose less this way. Also they have an electronic blackjack game there you can play with a players card. I believe it is 3:2 but make sure to check. This will count as slot play and will possibly benefit you better. If you get a players card linked to your room, your son can play with his room key and it will all count on your card. Lastly you can play some video poker. I havenít searched all of their games but I believe the best I saw was 9/5 jacks. If you did 40-50k coin in this should get you some offers. Your expected loss is a little less than $1000, however variance will be much higher than that.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 4:17:43 PM permalink
Really great thanks, have no intention of getting my son a card, all the action would be on my card,i still have a players card from the labor day visit I put everything on my room last time I was there, and knew enough to book the room through them same this year and charge everything to the room, just thought I could bet 1 -200 passline for an hour, while my son bets the DP same amount and get in the system for that amount and then dial it back from there to 25 passline 50 odds and the inside for the minimum and press, my son could also break off and play his game I could also take a swing at BJ but it is fun to play craps and my sone is learning how to play as well, not sure management would be too interested or cared as it gets a bit crazy there after 9 p.m.
Topkat10
Topkat10
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 15
February 9th, 2019 at 4:30:06 PM permalink
Thanks all intentions are to just have one players card and i actually have a card from my last 2 visits , and to be clear we are not going to Las Vegas, as you have pointed out it is far to much work to do for a meal or room, I stated in my original post we will be in the Bahamas at the Atlantis, agreed we still get plenty to drink at the tables but the food and other beverage and room rates are obscene, hence the idea if only for the first hour is to play heavy offsetting bets at 100- 200 passline and my son plays don't pass maybe hedge the 12 on the come out , the play is typically slow because the tables are full and there is lots of action, so my intention is to get a favorable rating and after an hour we can break off and reduce our bets and play the way we like, have gotten some great feedback here and appreciate your thoughts

  • Jump to: