AxelWolf
AxelWolf
  • Threads: 164
  • Posts: 22293
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
Thanked by
ForagerpetroglyphlildevilLucyMooseton
December 11th, 2018 at 1:21:24 AM permalink
When DarkOz originally started gloating about this play with limited details. IIRC I speculated what he was doing. As.memory serves me right, he said, I was getting very close.

We would have to go back and read all the thread conversation and perhaps bring PM's into the Mix.

From my understanding, his play was much better than what could/can be done in most other juissdictions due to the different state classes of machines.

His play worked because they were NOT class III machines. Nowadays, It may work to a lessor extent at various locations across the country. BUT, not if we keep yapping about it. It's getting to be slim pickings.

From what I understand, I have no reason to doubt he(DoarkOZ)had a fantastic +EV situation that had almost no downside and very little risk with a high profit margin(kudos to him)


This stuff happens from time to time. Some people get lucky being at the right place at the right time. Many times its just dumb luck. Sometimes you are actually looking for the holes in the system and find it. For instance(dumb luck), one of the most famous public glitches was the double up bug. That find was pure accident/ dumb luck discovered by a degenerate gambler.

I would never publicly talk about this stuff, unless I was 99.99% sure there's no chance it would happen again. Even then, I would wonder if that information would help educate EVERYONE in the future.

I have seen the same or similar mistakes made multiple times. I think Romes wants to talk about something that has been happening since before he was born and going on every since. His play may be dead, however, I think it's horrible to talk about since its still possible/probable.

Just alerting the casinos and gaming that AP are looking for this kinda stuff is bad news for AP's. DON'T TOSS IT IN THEIR FACE. Just play dumb. If you don't, IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE YOU IN THE ASS. Gaming agents now ask if you are an advantage player whenever you have a dispute. There's no reason they ask that other than to have a biased unfair ruling with a justification that you are an AP, thus, denying you a fair ruling.

I have found multiple things that have been incredibly +EV due to big holes the casino(s) have missed. Let's not educate everyone how to fix or exploit good plays and good opportunities.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. Darksiders don't know or learn the plays before AP's tag the casino. They learn after AP's do their thing and brag then about it.
Last edited by: AxelWolf on Dec 11, 2018
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
IndyJeffrey
IndyJeffrey
  • Threads: 13
  • Posts: 441
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
December 11th, 2018 at 3:44:44 AM permalink
Quote: RS

How feasible is that though to be implemented? Iíve played a machine or two where the camera doesnít seem to be working, because it shows it in the playerís terminal. Granted, that could just mean that communication link is faulty or perhaps disabled for whatever reason. But that, to me, doesnít seem like the best way capture the data.

I have no idea how it works, but I never thought it was the camera that does it. Maybe it does. Idk, Iím not a science rocket for a reason.



Very feasible. It is OCR (Optical Character Recognition) technology. The same technology used by numerous apps on your 'smart' phone. An example: at work, I snap a picture of my (hotel, restaurant, etc.) receipt and the software parses out the text and imports into my expense report. And reading/interpreting a receipt is a bit more complicated than large dice.

Do I know the bubble craps uses OCR technology? No. But since we are all theorizing as to how this works at this point, OCR is my guess.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
  • Threads: 67
  • Posts: 4300
Joined: Jan 5, 2012
December 11th, 2018 at 5:06:29 AM permalink
Quote: cowboy

Dead simple. Camera over top gives an image. Image is compared to one of six patterns for each dice. How many degrees the image is rotated doesn't matter. A computer can rotate and match a few thousand times before you can blink.


Yes, computer vision is a pretty complicated field, but simple stuff like this is possible with commodity sensors and software libraries.

I mentioned Ahigh's dice-throwing robot yesterday. In addition to the throwing arm, he also had a camera hooked up to a computer that would record the rolls automatically using computer vision. If a guy can do it in Perl on his home rig, I'm sure the big gaming companies can handle it.

Honestly, I assumed this is how the bubble craps machines read the dice rolls, but the RFID chips are just as plausible. Not an expert myself in gaming tech. Guess they could do both and compare the results for extra reliability.
Last edited by: AcesAndEights on Dec 11, 2018
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7481
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
December 11th, 2018 at 6:03:42 AM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Yes, computer vision is a pretty complicated field, but simple stuff like this is possible with commodity sensors and software libraries.

I mentioned Ahigh's dice-throwing robot yesterday. In addition to the throwing arm, he also had a camera hooked up to a computer that would record the rolls automatically using computer vision. If a guy can do it in Perl on his home rig, I'm sure the big gaming companies can handle it.

Honestly, I assumed this is how the bubble craps machines read the dice rolls, but the RFID chips are just as plausible. Not an expert myself is gaming tech. Guess they could do both and compare the results for extra reliability.

I honestly don't know the actual technology used, but my opinion as a lifelong techy guy it that it will be the simplest reliable option. (Keep it simple, stupid)... (TLDR Optical)

If it were RFID, then you either have to have one chip (centre of die) that can determine it's own spacial orientation, or 6 devices just under the faces of the die that either have such precise and limited radio range that only the one nearest a transceiver (in the landing area) would respond, or each is a tuned circuit, tuned to a different frequency. That's going to need a hell of a good calibration if it's distance based. The one chip solution has the significant obstacle that it is not a self powered device. RFID tags don't have batteries and are passive, being energised from the transceiver. For such a chip to determine it's own orientation without so much as a battery is pretty tricky.
I tend to think that if it's a wireless solution, then a flat coil tuned circuit under each face of the die would be the way to go. Only a face close to the landing area would respond because of limited range, and the transceiver would look for the frequency to match up to decide which face is down. But I still don't think it's that.
I very much doubt that it's any sort of ordinary magnetic detector. Magnets and sensors for magnets don't lend themselves to accurate calibration.
Optical reading... That's my favorite possibility. It's how the landing position of a roulette ball is determined for on screen displays. It's also how live dealer card games are electronically integrated (bar codes) and it's really very simple. Character recognition of the 1 to 6 dots on a horizontal die is absolute child's play.

Now, as to Darkoz's claim that some mysterious button moved or displaced the die. Has it not occurred to him that such a button might not very simply operate a servo that 'thumps' or vibrates the landing area so as to cause the dice to rattle free from it's inappropriate, non-flat position so that it just shakes free and lands in a way that can let it be read and let the game re-commence? That would be an obvious feature to build in to a game where a human operator touching the dice would be construed as tampering. That doesn't mean that any system or computer is rigging the die to land any particular way.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11546
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 6:20:44 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

When DarkOz originally started gloating about this play with limited details. IIRC I speculated what he was doing. As.memory serves me right, he said, I was getting very close.

We would have to go back and read all the thread conversation and perhaps bring PM's into the Mix.

From my understanding, his play was much better than what could/can be done in most other juissdictions due to the different state classes of machines.

His play worked because they were NOT class III machine. Nowadays, It may work to a lessor extent at various locations across the country. BUT, not if we keep yapping about it. It's getting slim pickings.

From what I understand, I have no reason to doubt he(DoarkOZ)had a fantastic +EV situation that had almost no downside and very little risk with a high profit margin(kudos to him)


This stuff happens from time to time. Some people get lucky being at the right place at the right time. Many times its just dumb luck. Sometimes you are actually looking for the holes in the system and find it. For instance(dumb luck), one of the most famous public glitches was the double up bug. That find was pure accident/ dumb luck discovered by a degenerate gambler.

I would never publicly talk about this stuff, unless I was 99.99% sure there's no chance it would happen again. Even then, I would wonder if that information would help educate EVERYONE in the future.

I have seen the same or similar mistakes made multiple times. I think Romes wants to talk about something that has been happening since before he was born and going on every since. His play may be dead, however, I think it's horrible to talk about.since its still possible/probable.

Just alerting casinos and gaming AP are looking for this stuff is bad news for AP's. DON'T TOSS IT IN THEIR FACE. Just play dumb. If you don't, IT WILL COME BACK TO BITE YOU IN THE ASS. Gaming agents now ask if you are an advantage player whenever you have a dispute. There's a reason they ask that other than a biased unfair ruling with a justification that you are an AP, thus, denying you a fair ruling.

I have found multiple things that have been incredibly +EV due to big holes the casino(s) have missed. Let's not educate everyone how to fix or exploit good plays and good opportunities.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Darksiders don't know or learn the plays before AP's tag the casino. They learn after AP's do their thing and brag then about it.



The NY AP move has nothing to do with Class 3 vs. Class 2 machines or any class

The NYS law I mentioned was nothing to do with class gaming.

Its so extremely rare that from my observation that I doubt there is more than a single digits percentage of it happening somewhere else

FYI - the law hasnt changed. The ability to take advantage of it was plugged due to a tangentially related "bug" being discovered by a plurality of people which forced their hand
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 9:49:23 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

...a servo that 'thumps' or vibrates the landing area so as to cause the dice to rattle free from it's inappropriate, non-flat position so that it just shakes free and lands in a way that can let it be read ...



This was my experience with a "Shoot To Win" machine in Nevada. One die would lay up on an edge against the bubble. The machine would lock up until a tech came to open the cabinet, and reset it. He didn't open the bubble, but appeared to put the machine into a "reset" mode that triggered the servos to bounce the floor a few times.

My guess is that the dice are read via OCR and not RFID because reading two dice accurately via RFID would be very tricky due to the use of a shaking platform that would have to contain the sensors.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
cwazy
cwazy
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 178
Joined: Mar 18, 2016
December 11th, 2018 at 10:01:05 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

This was my experience with a "Shoot To Win" machine in Nevada. One die would lay up on an edge against the bubble. The machine would lock up until a tech came to open the cabinet, and reset it. He didn't open the bubble, but appeared to put the machine into a "reset" mode that triggered the servos to bounce the floor a few times.

My guess is that the dice are read via OCR and not RFID because reading two dice accurately via RFID would be very tricky due to the use of a shaking platform that would have to contain the sensors.



Interblock is read by OCR. Aruze is either magnetic paint (per a technician) or RFID. This is why the Aruze machines lock up FAR more often than the Interblock machines. OCR is more reliable than counting on the dice coming to rest perfectly flat.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1496
  • Posts: 26619
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
Thanked by
Ayecarumbabeachbumbabs
December 11th, 2018 at 10:07:28 AM permalink
I asked Ahigh this question and he said they use RFID chips and mentioned this patent, DICE WITH RFID TAGS AND DICE RECOGNIZING SYSTEM FOR RECOGNIZING DICE WITH RFID TAGS

Patent No.: US 8,210,924 B2
Date of Patent: Jul. 3, 2012
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3815
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 10:15:15 AM permalink
Hmmm, so his claim of magnets and magic moving dice when the tech came are most likely false. More conspiracy thwarted.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 10:23:59 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm, so his claim of magnets and magic moving dice when the tech came are most likely false. More conspiracy thwarted.


ZCore13



Strange things happen around slot techs. I've had three experiences that give me pause to what they can do. Logic says they should have no control on a result, but it's happened enough over the years to make me wonder.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
Zcore13
Zcore13
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 3815
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 10:29:12 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Strange things happen around slot techs. I've had three experiences that give me pause to what they can do. Logic says they should have no control on a result, but it's happened enough over the years to make me wonder.



Every slot I've seen is purposely made so there is no chance of slot tech manipulation other that paytables.

Almost every slot tech I have known would be incapable of figuring out any type of workaround. These are generally low paying jobs with very little previous education or knowledge needed to start.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
DRich
DRich
  • Threads: 86
  • Posts: 11882
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
Thanked by
Zcore13
December 11th, 2018 at 10:55:13 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Every slot I've seen is purposely made so there is no chance of slot tech manipulation other that paytables.

Almost every slot tech I have known would be incapable of figuring out any type of workaround. These are generally low paying jobs with very little previous education or knowledge needed to start.


ZCore13



As a person that has designed and programmed many slot machines, my perspective is that most slot techs have no idea how things really work. I don't mean to isolate slot techs, in general most casino employees know only about one tenth of what they think they know.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11546
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 11:03:02 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Hmmm, so his claim of magnets and magic moving dice when the tech came are most likely false. More conspiracy thwarted.


ZCore13



I never said magnets nor magic

I said it appeared to like a magician would make an object move on its own. Obviously a trick caused by something other than magic

And once again I said RFID. Not magnets. That was someone else
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7481
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
December 11th, 2018 at 11:04:57 AM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

This was my experience with a "Shoot To Win" machine in Nevada. One die would lay up on an edge against the bubble. The machine would lock up until a tech came to open the cabinet, and reset it. He didn't open the bubble, but appeared to put the machine into a "reset" mode that triggered the servos to bounce the floor a few times.

My guess is that the dice are read via OCR and not RFID because reading two dice accurately via RFID would be very tricky due to the use of a shaking platform that would have to contain the sensors.

Oh hell, yeah. I'd forgotten there are two dice to read. That's definitely going to be optical. If a crappy phone can read a QR code and a cash register can read 50 crappy assorted barcodes a minute, then reading 2 to 12 pips optically would be a cinche.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7481
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
December 11th, 2018 at 11:11:47 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I never said magnets nor magic

I said it appeared to like a magician would make an object move on its own. Obviously a trick caused by something other than magic

And once again I said RFID. Not magnets. That was someone else



You strongly implied that a computer or mechanism in the machine could impart controlling actions on the dice. RFID COULD explain how the dice is read, but unless the dice are fitted with magnets or tiny retro rockets, you've given no hint to how motion was imparted.

A vibrating servo, or rapid puff of air or a big mama of an elecro magnet could have been controlled by that button just to get the dice out of it's inappropriate position. No cheat feature implied by that.

The ladies IPAD could maybe have been modified and used to dazzle or confuse the die reading optics, to make it read and report dice incorrectly... But I doubt it.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
OnceDear
  • Threads: 63
  • Posts: 7481
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
December 11th, 2018 at 11:15:29 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

As a person that has designed and programmed many slot machines, my perspective is that most slot techs have no idea how things really work. I don't mean to isolate slot techs, in general most casino employees know only about one tenth of what they think they know.

Exactly. "If the die gets stuck, you are not to mess about with the bubble or dice. Just whack this button till the dice falls away" would be pretty much his job description. That or "turn it off and back on again"
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
billryan
billryan
  • Threads: 240
  • Posts: 16282
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 11:38:03 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

As a person that has designed and programmed many slot machines, my perspective is that most slot techs have no idea how things really work. I don't mean to isolate slot techs, in general most casino employees know only about one tenth of what they think they know.




I fully understand your arguments, but in the light of these events, it is hard to fully accept them.

1) Sands Casino AC- I'm playing a WOF game that when you hit the bonus, a screen is supposed to appear and you choose one of three wheels. The wheel says 1-5 spins. In this game, the screen was skipped and I only got one spin. After concluding the bonus, I read the rules and was pretty sure I was right. Another bonus came along and instead of playing it, I called a slot attendant. She read the rules and called a slot tech. We explained what happened and he worked on the machine a few minutes. Said he had to take the game offline after I did my bonus spin. I was playing 27 nickels( 3 per line) and the spin awarded 25-1000 times your line bet.
Wheel spun and ended on the 1,000 coin slot. The only time it ever happened.
2) At a bar in Vegas. Guy comes in and tells me I have to move to the other side of the bar. He needs change several machines right in a row. We talk a bit and he tells me he left me something on the machine. I see he left ten credits for me. First spin I get a dealt full house. Coincidence? Perhaps? but it does make me go hmmmm.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11546
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 12:53:38 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

You strongly implied that a computer or mechanism in the machine could impart controlling actions on the dice. RFID COULD explain how the dice is read, but unless the dice are fitted with magnets or tiny retro rockets, you've given no hint to how motion was imparted.

A vibrating servo, or rapid puff of air or a big mama of an elecro magnet could have been controlled by that button just to get the dice out of it's inappropriate position. No cheat feature implied by that.

The ladies IPAD could maybe have been modified and used to dazzle or confuse the die reading optics, to make it read and report dice incorrectly... But I doubt it.



I still imply that

I just dont think its magnets

Im no specialist in this area so not sure what it could be. However I dabbled in both magic tricks and film-making (an art of illusion) and you will be surprised what the least apparent answer usually is
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11546
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 12:57:22 PM permalink
UPDATE/CORRECTION

After several PMs with Axel it may be that the NY AP move is possible due to class III status

We both agree its difficult to determine if thats the case and based on his longer tenure and experience in this matter I demure to his expertise

He also approved me discussing our PMs here

If I got anything wrong in that statement Axel let me know (I know you will)
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Thanked by
OnceDear
December 11th, 2018 at 2:46:32 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Oh hell, yeah. I'd forgotten there are two dice to read. That's definitely going to be optical. If a crappy phone can read a QR code and a cash register can read 50 crappy assorted barcodes a minute, then reading 2 to 12 pips optically would be a cinche.



Aruze has a patent on a system that places two RFID loop antennas in the shaker table to detect the faces that are contacting the surface:





I wonder how these are holding up? With parts shaking all the time, the service intervals must be fairly frequent.

This system also sheds light on the report of the lady with the iPad getting perp walked out. RFID readers/transmitters are used by car thieves to enter and start keyless automobiles. While I don't know of any specific weakness, this system could be vulnerable to spoofing as well.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
darkoz
darkoz
  • Threads: 297
  • Posts: 11546
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 2:51:02 PM permalink
Thank you ayecarumba

You are my hero now
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
December 11th, 2018 at 3:21:41 PM permalink
spoofing possibly, though with all the stray signals in a casino environment I would assume all systems have to be toned down.

a reset system is likely, but not a control system.

if you keep your car keys near your front door a thief can read the signal from outside, boost its strength and open your car, but its rare that thieves even know this.
unJon
unJon 
  • Threads: 14
  • Posts: 4654
Joined: Jul 1, 2018
December 11th, 2018 at 7:22:27 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

UPDATE/CORRECTION

After several PMs with Axel it may be that the NY AP move is possible due to class III status

We both agree its difficult to determine if thats the case and based on his longer tenure and experience in this matter I demure to his expertise

He also approved me discussing our PMs here

If I got anything wrong in that statement Axel let me know (I know you will)

Itís only the gamblerís fallacy if the trials are independent . . .
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
FCBLComish
FCBLComish
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 549
Joined: Apr 11, 2010
December 11th, 2018 at 9:27:44 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Besides the chips in the dice theory, how does the machine know what sides the dice landed on?



Cameras on top of the bubble.
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
Sandybestdog
Sandybestdog
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 336
Joined: Feb 3, 2015
December 14th, 2018 at 11:12:36 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Every slot I've seen is purposely made so there is no chance of slot tech manipulation other that paytables.

Almost every slot tech I have known would be incapable of figuring out any type of workaround. These are generally low paying jobs with very little previous education or knowledge needed to start.


ZCore13

I would disagree somewhat with this. Letís just say itís not the paytables that are manipulated but another area that could be set up incorrectly. I donít want to say anymore on a public forum.
  • Jump to: