Craps Scam - Cons Busted Bellagio-
https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-men-placed-on-nevadas-black-book-after-running-con-at-bellagio-casino
Quote: lilredroosterI think this is how it worked: they mumbled "hops". if the bet won the dealer who was in on it paid. if it didn't dealer pretended he didn't hear it. according to the report the Bellagio did not have a designated spot for hops bets
https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-men-placed-on-nevadas-black-book-after-running-con-at-bellagio-casino
You Cad. I was thinking of mentioning this thing first crack as soon as I saw it in Google Trending, but I forgot and you best me to the punch. ;)
Quote: NathanQuote: lilredroosterI think this is how it worked: they mumbled "hops". if the bet won the dealer who was in on it paid. if it didn't dealer pretended he didn't hear it. according to the report the Bellagio did not have a designated spot for hops bets
https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-men-placed-on-nevadas-black-book-after-running-con-at-bellagio-casino
You Cad. I was thinking of mentioning this thing first crack as soon as I saw it in Google Trending, but I forgot and you best me to the punch. ;)
Sounds like that old story
The Rooster and the Hare
Quote: lilredroosterI think this is how it worked: they mumbled "hops" and some numbers. if the bet won the dealer who was in on it paid. if it didn't the dealer pretended he didn't hear it. according to the report the Bellagio did not have a designated spot for hops bets
https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-men-placed-on-nevadas-black-book-after-running-con-at-bellagio-casino
That cant be how it worked. In fact they may have gotten away with it if it worked like that
The article said the casino noticed the high odds bets were paid off quite more than the odds expected. This sounds like they were being paid regardless of valid result
Otherwise the defense would be they got paid when they won - check the tapes
The scam seems to be they mumbled the wager so the pitboss and other legit dealers couldnt hear it. The Confederate dealer paid the result claiming that he heard the wager being made
The table not having a hops bet location to place the chips made the dealers verification of what he heard the key to the scam
Don't feel too bad Nathan, it looks like MathExtremist beat you both by 2 1/2 years!Quote: NathanQuote: lilredroosterI think this is how it worked: they mumbled "hops". if the bet won the dealer who was in on it paid. if it didn't dealer pretended he didn't hear it. according to the report the Bellagio did not have a designated spot for hops bets
https://www.foxnews.com/us/two-men-placed-on-nevadas-black-book-after-running-con-at-bellagio-casino
You Cad. I was thinking of mentioning this thing first crack as soon as I saw it in Google Trending, but I forgot and you best me to the punch. ;)
I guess the news is them making it into the Black Book..
Benny Binion of long ago had the right idea. He had a box man who was quite deaf and another who was quite blind, so he had them sit double box... nothing got past them.
Anyone read the utterly absurd comments from the gambling public who just did not grasp the situation
Quote: FoxCasino officials became aware of the con in 2014 after noticing several bets that won despite 452 billion-to-1 odds, according to the Review-Journal.
What is this bet in craps with 452 billion to 1 odds? That is like rolling a yo seven times in a row.
I will be on the Strip tonight and try to confirm the statement that the Bellagio had nowhere to put hop bets, but I'm immediately skeptical. Hopefully one of the big craps players on the forum can comment, but if you catch me making a hop bet, other than in a tournament, then please just put a bullet in the head, which is why I don't know the procedure of how they are handled, if there are not the little circles for them I see on most tables.
I've said this several times, but from my time at the Venetian I learned that what most staff on the floor found more annoying than advantage play and outright cheating was shot takers. People that make an ambiguous bet or decision and then argued if the result didn't go their way. It sounds like they were doing something like this, aided by a confederate dealer, but about the details, I don't know but am interested.
Let's keep this topic going.
its 'this guy made xnumber of hop bsts and won them all.....the odds are 'collusion'.
this happened a few years ago.Quote: WizardWhat is this bet in craps with 452 billion to 1 odds? That is like rolling a yo seven times in a row.
I do not know what bet that is and your 7 times in a row yo seems too low than 452 billion
some one told me Bellagio went with Bonus Craps Bets a few years ago and the layouts have hop bets.Quote: WizardI will be on the Strip tonight and try to confirm the statement that the Bellagio had nowhere to put hop bets, but I'm immediately skeptical.
Before that I do not recall seeing hop bets there. Most craps layouts do not have hop bets unless it offers the Bonus Craps Bets.
got that right! dealers dislike them players the most. (because shot takers take advantage of the weaker dealers - that comes to procedures)Quote: Wizardshot takers.
seems to be on the rise these days.
I see lots trying the old FIELD BUY-IN scam routine.
2 players search out a craps table with NO BOX, lots these days, and dealers that hawk the dice. One player gets the attention of the hawker Dealer
while the other places a few large cash bills right in the Field when the shooter is about to toss the dice. ($200 I have seen a few times)
IF this goes as planned, no one says anything, the shooter rolls the dice and a FIELD number is called.
and the player wants to get paid... and should IF the 3 dealers let this happened.
If the shooter rolls a non-Field number, the player says he/she wants change as the dealer may try to take what looks like a losing Field "money plays" bet.
The base dealer should ALWAYS keep eyes on his/her end and call 'change only' on that attempt,
especially when the buy-in player says not a word.
This was a popular play in Reno in the 80s and 90s against newer dealers
might be still popular all over the world
I just shake my head and move on.
good point.Quote: FleaStiffthat is why most places no longer allow 'money plays' ...
I do not know about 'most'
yes, I have seen that a lot at Indian casinos in SoCal, they have it on a placard right on the table.
In Nevada where I play (Vegas and other towns) and a few years ago in Connecticut and Tunica, I still see this happening and I am too old now to even care.
Why would a casino consider paying off a muttered hop bet if the bettor hadn't also thrown in money to cover the wager?
Sounds like no bet was ever booked.
Crooked dealer, obviously.
Were this in Saudi Arabia they'd cut off his hand.
No bet was booked in a loud and clear manner. They just went thru the motions enough to fool the box and the other base dealer.Quote: MrV
Sounds like no bet was ever booked.
This is the hardest thing a casino has to deal with: an intermittent collusion.
Quote: FleaStiffNo bet was booked in a loud and clear manner. They just went thru the motions enough to fool the box and the other base dealer.
This is the hardest thing a casino has to deal with: an intermittent collusion.
Reminds me of a time when I was at a table with a BJ dealer who was flamboyant and many times I could see his hole card. I was betting $5 a hand, did not know the dealer, and was still VERY nervous when I would make a play that was against basic strategy. There was another guy at the table betting $25 who seemed to know he dealer. It is possible that collusion was occurring (I actually don't think so) and the other guy was going to take a few hundred dollars. I was nervous about my own play and didn't notice if the other guy was making plays based on knowing the undercard. I didn't hit 19 against a 20, as an example, but mostly used the undercard knowledge to change my doubles, splits.... and the occasional hit of a 'stiff' hand against a dealer 5 or 6 if I knew the undercard made the dealer a 10 or 11. I think I played an hour or so, was up something like $30 and felt uncomfortable and left.
I wonder how aggressive you could be without setting off alarms.... and how often collusion like this could happen? I mean, if the other guy played and quit after winning 10 green chips it is hard to imagine anyone noticing......
anyway she'd cap her bet when she had 21 or 20 or 19 - actually doubled it
she got away with it several times and then then dealer finally caught it and told her she couldn't do that and knocked the cap down
I explained to her that you can only double after you get 2 cards and then you must take a 3rd card
she said she didn't know that and actually I believe her - she told me it was her first time playing and she thought you could double any time
I've told the story to others and they said they didn't think she was innocent - that she was cheating
I don't think so and neither did the dealer who didn't call the pit boss or make a big deal out of it
she told me she was a nurse. she had that wide eyed innocent look about her. who knows?
Supervisors were also in on it.
The figure stated for the scam to the best of my knowledge was lower than the actual damages.
I believe this scam was busted by other players saying something to management. This is usually how these types of scams get busted.
They used what is known as a "call" betQuote: FleaStiffNo bet was booked in a loud and clear manner. They just went thru the motions enough to fool the box and the other base dealer.
call out the bet - sometimes a very last second wager as the shooter is rolling the dice, dealer sees enough cheques in the rail to "book the bet" verbally. Difficult at times with loud music blasting or lots of table noise present.
Many layouts nowadays have "No Call Bets" printed right on them
"craps rule prohibits players from calling out any last-moment wagers, if they don't have enough chips on the rack to cover them."
The other dealers and Box (if there was one) should have known something was up
they work as a team and when something goes or looks wrong at the table
the team should figure out what it is that is wrong. (they get enough breaks and can sit and think about it in the break room)
You have a guy who (theoretically) is betting $500 on the passline with max odds, maybe some place bets, those couple hundred dollar bets on hop-bets don't really seem all that important. You got other people at the table also betting several hundreds or thousands. You're not going to notice he's winning way more than expected, because a bulk of his wins/losses (normally) may come from his regular bets like pass/odds/place bets....at least not in a day-to-day analysis or short term. But long term, you'll see it.
I'm sure there was some cover betting but probably not enough.
Quote: 7crapsI do not know what bet that is and your 7 times in a row yo seems too low than 452 billion
I said it was like rolling seven yo's in a row, not exactly the same probability. However, for the perfectionists of the forum, it is like rolling a yo 6.895027494 times in a row.
I was at the Bellagio briefly last night but forgot to check the craps tables. However, I did check one at the Park MGM (same company) and it did have spots for hop bets. However, I think this is not the issue.
A non-forum member told me the gist of the scam was, as mentioned by others, taking ambiguous verbal bets, called "call" bets, when they won and ignoring them when they lost. I thought most casinos had a policy of no call bets, for exactly the reason exposed in this scam.
In the movie Rain Man there is a scene where Raymond makes a large call bet in roulette, that I don't think would have been accepted at most casinos.
Quote: Wizard
A non-forum member told me the gist of the scam was, as mentioned by others, taking ambiguous verbal bets, called "call" bets, when they won and ignoring them when they lost. I thought most casinos had a policy of no call bets, for exactly the reason exposed in this scam.
The "NO CALL BETS" on a craps table specifically is for people who call out bets when there are not enough chips in the rail to cover the bet.
These players had plenty of chips in the rail.
Craps bets are booked verbally all the time. To correctly book a bet, the dealer needs to repeat 3 pieces of information: The bet, the amount, and player. Example "easy 6 hopping for $5 each, next to stick"
What was happening in the scam was the player would drop some cheques on the layout, and the dealer would point at him and say "BET". Yes, the other dealers on the crew, and the supervisor were in on the scam. They picked their spots where there were no other personnel around at the time. There would also be other things going on to get the floor supervisor away from the game, like a large buy-in on the other side of the pit, or a girl in a low cut top shooting the dice.
They only need to do this a couple times per session to have a huge advantage.
Quote: SiegfriedRoyWhen I'm taking care of the dealers at the craps table, sometimes the dealers conveniently hear or don't hear my call bets in my favor. That's huge EV+.
Huge EV+ and also cheating.......
Quote: FCBLComishHuge EV+ and also cheating.......
I always do the right thing and drop my chips to pay for my lost call bet, but sometimes if the dealer says he didn't hear anything and refuses to take it front of the Pit, who am I to argue?
Quote: SiegfriedRoyWhen I'm taking care of the dealers at the craps table, sometimes the dealers conveniently hear or don't hear my call bets in my favor. That's huge EV+.
I would call it cheating.
Quote: WizardI would call it cheating.
I agree, but what would you do?
Recently, I was playing, occasionally tipping but enjoying the dealer, who was entertaining the table. I have a $25 bet out. My 18 loses to the dealer but the dealer calls it a drawer. We locked eyes and it certainly seemed like he was telling me it was not an accident.
Do you correct him?
Its sort of a soft hustle for tip. The Box will end it after a while.Quote: WizardI would call it cheating.
Is it an analogous situation?
Quote: billryanI agree, but what would you do?
Recently, I was playing, occasionally tipping but enjoying the dealer, who was entertaining the table. I have a $25 bet out. My 18 loses to the dealer but the dealer calls it a drawer. We locked eyes and it certainly seemed like he was telling me it was not an accident.
Do you correct him?
Yes, this is a moral dilemma isn't it. I'll split this off to another thread if it gets more than a few more posts.
I'm pretty sure I have been in this situation in blackjack where I thought I lost and the dealer called it a push, or turned a push to a win. This was often done shortly after giving a decent tip and with a look on his face that I took to mean "you take care of me and I'll take care of you." When this happens, I don't feel comfortable and will move to another table. I suppose someone more honest than me would insist on giving back any money I didn't win, but usually the dealer scoops away the cards quickly, so I'm never sure the error wasn't mine.
To address the craps example, let me preface my response by saying that I don't play much of the game and when I do, my bets are always very clear. I've never made a verbal bet in craps in my life. However, let's say I did, and it should have lost but the dealer refuses to accept the money because the bet wasn't accepted with a little wink in his eye. Much like in blackjack, I wouldn't insist on paying the money, but it would make me feel comfortable. Either I would make no more verbal bets at that table or just play at another table.
Much more important to me than playing well is playing honestly and honoring your gambling debts.
Quote: WizardYes, this is a moral dilemma isn't it. I'll split this off to another thread if it gets more than a few more posts.
I'm pretty sure I have been in this situation in blackjack where I thought I lost and the dealer called it a push, or turned a push to a win. This was often done shortly after giving a decent tip and with a look on his face that I took to mean "you take care of me and I'll take care of you." When this happens, I don't feel comfortable and will move to another table. I suppose someone more honest than me would insist on giving back any money I didn't win, but usually the dealer scoops away the cards quickly, so I'm never sure the error wasn't mine.
To address the craps example, let me preface my response by saying that I don't play much of the game and when I do, my bets are always very clear. I've never made a verbal bet in craps in my life. However, let's say I did, and it should have lost but the dealer refuses to accept the money because the bet wasn't accepted with a little wink in his eye. Much like in blackjack, I wouldn't insist on paying the money, but it would make me feel comfortable. Either I would make no more verbal bets at that table or just play at another table.
Much more important to me than playing well is playing honestly and honoring your gambling debts.
Next time that happens, give me a call. :)
I'm joking, of course......maybe.
I worked with a dealer who used to deal craps way back in the day at a casino where it was "go for your own" and tokes weren't split between all dealers, however the craps crew would split their own for their own table. He said if they were having a bad week, the supervisor would give them the "go ahead" and leave the pit for a while. Mysteriously they'd make several hundred each during that time and the supervisor would get a cut. I'm not sure how true that story necessarily is, since he wasn't the most honest. Probably true but maybe a bit exaggerated. I'm pretty sure he does crack now, though.
Quote: WizardYes, this is a moral dilemma isn't it. I'll split this off to another thread if it gets more than a few more posts.
I'm pretty sure I have been in this situation in blackjack where I thought I lost and the dealer called it a push, or turned a push to a win. This was often done shortly after giving a decent tip and with a look on his face that I took to mean "you take care of me and I'll take care of you." When this happens, I don't feel comfortable and will move to another table. I suppose someone more honest than me would insist on giving back any money I didn't win, but usually the dealer scoops away the cards quickly, so I'm never sure the error wasn't mine.
To address the craps example, let me preface my response by saying that I don't play much of the game and when I do, my bets are always very clear. I've never made a verbal bet in craps in my life. However, let's say I did, and it should have lost but the dealer refuses to accept the money because the bet wasn't accepted with a little wink in his eye. Much like in blackjack, I wouldn't insist on paying the money, but it would make me feel comfortable. Either I would make no more verbal bets at that table or just play at another table.
Much more important to me than playing well is playing honestly and honoring your gambling debts.
On a Caribbean cruise, I just slouched way down in my chair, my eyes at table level, and the BJ dealer kept lifting the hole-card and letting me peek, just as long as I was tipping. This went on for a couple of nights, with zero verbalization. Then he suddenly stopped exposing the hole-card, which was a non-verbal cut-off signal. That was a long time ago before I learned about security and "cheater's justice". I wouldn't try it again, but you can see how these things just happen spontaneously.
Another time I was at a Northern Michigan BJ table, the dealer has 15, deals 6, and says "too many". NOT ONE PERSON at that table made a peep; it was a spontaneous display of cooperative theft, but nobody felt bad for the casino that time. Since this wasn't prearranged, I felt that at worst, they might ask for the money back, and I kept it. In this situation, if I would have said anything, the other players might have been pissed.
I get 9.28 rolls.Quote: WizardI said it was like rolling seven yo's in a row, not exactly the same probability. However, for the perfectionists of the forum, it is like rolling a yo 6.895027494 times in a row. .
Ln 452,000,000,000 / Ln 18
Quote: Ace2I get 9.28 rolls.
Ln 452,000,000,000 / Ln 18
inb4 Wizard says, "Get off my back chief, I was off by 3 zeroes."
Wizard did it for 452 million, not 452 billion.
in fact if you did indicate a correction and the pit boss then saw the dealer error because the game was delayed you might contribute to him getting disciplined or fired
if it was a friendly home poker game I would not accept an overpayment
but casinos are giant corporations
I have no feeling at all for them or their minuscule loss
I think the problem is when tips are being given for overpayments or pushes when you should lose. It gets into collusion territory. Where that line is drawn, I have no clue. If I'm tipping a normal amount and the dealer seems to be making mistakes in my favor, I'm going with it.Quote: lilredroosterIf you get paid too much or get paid when you shouldn't at a blackjack table, and you accept the overpayment that is not cheating or dishonest by any stretch of the imagination IMO. it is the casino's responsibility to pay you correctly - it is not your responsibility to correct any errors.
in fact if you did indicate a correction and the pit boss then saw the dealer error because the game was delayed you might contribute to him getting disciplined or fired
if it was a friendly home poker game I would not accept an overpayment
but casinos are giant corporations
I have no feeling at all for them or their minuscule loss
For that, I believe In deserve to rot in hell.
Quote: speedycrapIn Nevada, if player knowingly accept a wrong payment, that is illegal. I was told by a floor person.
For that, I believe In deserve to rot in hell.
if that is true, and you take that statement literally - that would mean if you got paid $37 and you should have been paid $38 and you didn't say anything because you were tired and you didn't really care but you 𝐤𝐧𝐞𝐰 that the payment was wrong, then you committed an illegal act.
you would never be charged but still. pretty bizarre.
and also, how would they know that you 𝐤𝐧𝐞𝐰. I don't think they yet have software that reads minds but maybe in a couple of years they will.
Quote: speedycrapIn Nevada, if player knowingly accept a wrong payment, that is illegal. I was told by a floor person.
For that, I believe In deserve to rot in hell.
NEVER listen to casino floor staff when it comes to knowledge of whats legal
Do I say anything? Not a chance. It's up to the house to administer their games correctly IMO.
Quote: FCBLComishThe "NO CALL BETS" on a craps table specifically is for people who call out bets when there are not enough chips in the rail to cover the bet.
These players had plenty of chips in the rail.
Craps bets are booked verbally all the time. To correctly book a bet, the dealer needs to repeat 3 pieces of information: The bet, the amount, and player. Example "easy 6 hopping for $5 each, next to stick"
What was happening in the scam was the player would drop some cheques on the layout, and the dealer would point at him and say "BET". Yes, the other dealers on the crew, and the supervisor were in on the scam. They picked their spots where there were no other personnel around at the time. There would also be other things going on to get the floor supervisor away from the game, like a large buy-in on the other side of the pit, or a girl in a low cut top shooting the dice.
They only need to do this a couple times per session to have a huge advantage.
The woman in a low cut top shooting the dice in order to distract other players wouldn't work too well with a table full of straight women ;)
Quote: lilredroosterIf you get paid too much or get paid when you shouldn't at a blackjack table, and you accept the overpayment that is not cheating or dishonest by any stretch of the imagination IMO. it is the casino's responsibility to pay you correctly - it is not your responsibility to correct any errors.
in fact if you did indicate a correction and the pit boss then saw the dealer error because the game was delayed you might contribute to him getting disciplined or fired
if it was a friendly home poker game I would not accept an overpayment
but casinos are giant corporations
I have no feeling at all for them or their minuscule loss
So if a cashier at Mickey Ds mistakenly gives you change for a hundred instead of a twenty, it's a keeper,eh?
Change at Mickey D's, is like a box of chocolates.Quote: billryanSo if a cashier at Mickey Ds mistakenly gives you change for a hundred instead of a twenty, it's a keeper,eh?
