Is This Supposed to be Physcially Possible?
Quote: ECoasterIs it touching the outer glass or stuck in groove at the bottom?
No, it is resting in the center of the table and isn’t touching anything.
YOU DECIDE !
What casino was this ? Where's agent J & K when we need them.
Don't worry, you won't remember any of this.
BIG FLASH.
Quote: JohnnyQProof of alien visitors ?
YOU DECIDE !
What casino was this ? Where's agent J & K when we need them.
Don't worry, you won't remember any of this.
BIG FLASH.
I posted this thread asking if the die had to be warped in order to do that. If banging against the glass/ceiling/table all day can cause the dice to warp, then it's quite likely that dice on these machines (when they aren't changed often enough) would develop a bias, which would make it worth running results on various machines through a Chi-Square test.
I wasn't implying anything nonsensical.
The die has to be made of a soft-ish material, right ? I suspect the edge is not super sharp, cuz if it were, ENTROPY would come in to play and it wouldn't sit like that for long.
Quote: cwazyI posted this thread asking if the die had to be warped in order to do that. If banging against the glass/ceiling/table all day can cause the dice to warp, then it's quite likely that dice on these machines (when they aren't changed often enough) would develop a bias, which would make it worth running results on various machines through a Chi-Square test.
I wasn't implying anything nonsensical.
There’s a guy on another gambling site ( crapsforum(dot)com ) who writes about non-random rolls on Aruze e-craps. He hunts machines where the dice and the felt are worn so the dice has “more friction” (whatever that means).
His last post was about a test for dice control for Aruze e-craps. The ironic part was how he kept explaining that you want the dice to “land and stick” (whatever that means) and “not tumble” (still have no idea to that meaning).
Then your example shows up and provides visual proof of his theory. Those dice in the photos are pretty beat up and worn.
One thing about dice control and chi-square tests. The same guy claims there are three forms of chi-square tests for craps: total dependent which is the industry standard and two forms of composition dependent tests. The difference is the degrees of freedom due to more terms used.
Last point. You want to run the chi-square test on the shooter and not the machine.
Btw, thanks for that photo because now I believe his theory of dice landing and sticking in Aruze e-craps.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThose are Chinese dice.
That is a borderline “racist” comment. Enough said.
Can we please leave “Chinese” out of the discussion. Thanks.
Quote: CAD2That is a borderline “racist” comment. Enough said.
Can we please leave “Chinese” out of the discussion. Thanks.
"Racist?"
Having a low opinion of the quality Chinese manufactured dice is "racist?"
Quote: JohnnyQNo offense meant, mi amigo, just funnin with ya. So yeah, I think it is possible for the die to have a small-ish flat surface worn into the "edge" over time.
The die has to be made of a soft-ish material, right ? I suspect the edge is not super sharp, cuz if it were, ENTROPY would come in to play and it wouldn't sit like that for long.
I would think the material is somewhat soft. The edges are rounded, but appear to be designed specifically to avoid the dice being able to rest on them. That’s why this intrigued me - it appears that this die, either through manufacturing error or excessive use, has departed from its design specs.
Quote: CAD2That is a borderline “racist” comment. Enough said.
Can we please leave “Chinese” out of the discussion. Thanks.
Chinese is a nationality, not a race. Either way, the joke went over your head and under your feet.
Quote: IbeatyouracesChinese is a nationality, not a race. Either way, the joke went over your head and under your feet.
It is not a “joke” unless you are a bigot. Jokes about nationalities or race or ethnicity are not funny - you can ask Jay Leno.
For too long, Americans were using “Chinese” (as a nationality or race or ethnicity) to make fun of the situation.
It’s in the American lexicon:
“Chinese” home run
“Chinese” fire drill
And if you weren’t so bigoted in your views, you should have known there are such things as Chinese Dice (try Google).
Quote: MrV"Racist?"
Having a low opinion of the quality Chinese manufactured dice is "racist?"
In English composition, we are concerned with both tenor and vehicle. Additionally, both the connotation and denotation plays a role.
There is a world of difference between “Chinese-made” dice and Chinese dice. You need to use a search engine like Google to see what Chinese dice are. Since the photo in the OP does not concern Chinese dice, logic dictates the comment was borderline racist.
Quote: CAD2It is not a “joke” unless you are a bigot. Jokes about nationalities or race or ethnicity are not funny - you can ask Jay Leno.
For too long, Americans were using “Chinese” (as a nationality or race or ethnicity) to make fun of the situation.
It’s in the American lexicon:
“Chinese” home run
“Chinese” fire drill
And if you weren’t so bigoted in your views, you should have known there are such things as Chinese Dice (try Google).
Well then the dice are racist too! Hell for that matter, so is Pai Gow Dominoes!
P.S. I'm not racist or bigoted. I hate everyone equally. 😉
Quote: cwazyI would think the material is somewhat soft. The edges are rounded, but appear to be designed specifically to avoid the dice being able to rest on them. That’s why this intrigued me - it appears that this die, either through manufacturing error or excessive use, has departed from its design specs.
That is what the guy has posted about at length on the other website. He stated that Aruze’s failure to change the dice in a timely manner makes the game vulnerable to AP’s who has “dice control”.
I'm flattered you thought I was a bigot, but I'd never say anything bigoted publicly.Quote: CAD2It is not a “joke” unless you are a bigot. Jokes about nationalities or race or ethnicity are not funny - you can ask Jay Leno.
For too long, Americans were using “Chinese” (as a nationality or race or ethnicity) to make fun of the situation.
It’s in the American lexicon:
“Chinese” home run
“Chinese” fire drill
And if you weren’t so bigoted in your views, you should have known there are such things as Chinese Dice (try Google).
Quote: CAD2That is what the guy has posted about at length on the other website. He stated that Aruze’s failure to change the dice in a timely manner makes the game vulnerable to AP’s who has “dice control”.
"Dice control?"
People claim they can control the dice?
Whoa, maybe I better look into this, I'm tired of getting whacked at craps.
Dice control: now there's an idea.
Quote: CAD2That is a borderline “racist” comment. Enough said.
Can we please leave “Chinese” out of the discussion. Thanks.
I think I need to explain. We have a member who often rants about being cursed, the casinos are out to get him, other nonsense. The silliest thing he said, and he got a lot of pushback on it, was that the casinos were buying cheap Chinese cards instead of quality cards and that was why he was losing.
It's become a running forum joke on him. Any gaming equipment that doesn't do what you want it to do (which is win), someone mocks the idea of where something is made having anything to do with whether you will win or lose a hand.
There was no offense intended. In fact, the basis of the joke is a continued refutation of the idea, not supporting it. So it would be good if you could understand, being new to the board, that there was no racist comment, but the opposite, not allowing the original reference to stand unchallenged.
If you would like to see for yourself, look up the thread D Day in Vegas, started by ZenKing, the person being mocked for this type of nonsense excuses. Or take my word for it.
Quote: tringlomaneThe die with the 6 facing us looks nicely jammed in the crack the felt has. I assume all the machines have this, but instead we start talking about "Chinese Dice"...LOL
It's hard to tell because of all the scratches on the glass, but there is no crack in the felt. You're seeing a reflection of the line in the plastic that is outside of the glass. The die was sitting on its corner, in the same position, for several minutes. While waiting for someone to reset the machine, one player gave his terminal a shove, which made the die visibly wobble a bit but it still didn't fall of its corner. Honestly it was the among the weirdest things I have ever seen in a casino.
You can see the same effect when the interior lights are off (before the roll) in this video. It looks like there's a crack, but when the lights turn on, you can see that there isn't one.
Quote: onenickelmiracleI'm flattered you thought I was a bigot, but I'd never say anything bigoted publicly.
1. My reply to you was that your comment was borderline “racist” (btw, being a racist does not equate to being a bigot because one can be a bigot and not a racist) - you didn’t grow up being on the receiving end of “Chinese” comments (where Chinese when used as an adjective was meant in a derogatory manner or as an ethnic slur).
2. The “bigoted” comment was directed to the person who thought making ethnic jokes was “funny”. Just ask Jay Leno if he thinks ethnic jokes are “funny”.
3. I am not responsible if you lack the intelligence or sensitivity that “Chinese” when used as an adjective is considered racist in the context you employed. Whether you intended offense is irrelevant - this is 2018, not the 1950’s.
The bottomline is your (borderline racist) comment in the context it was written is offensive.
Quote: MrV"Dice control?"
People claim they can control the dice?
Whoa, maybe I better look into this, I'm tired of getting whacked at craps.
Dice control: now there's an idea.
That guy at crapsforum(dot)com has put up photos showing he has dice control.
He claims to have rolled 12x(6,7,8) in 15 consecutive rolls and have put up photos as proof. Btw, the P(X=>x) is 0.00559. And he has performed this act twice based on the photos.
He has also stated because there are at least 4xRed 7’s in those 12x(6,7,8), that his results are decidedly non-random and are based on skill.
And this last point is worth mentioning - he claims the only thing he controls in Aruze e-craps is when to push the button. So he knows when to push the button 15 consecutive times to get 12x(6,7,8) with at least 4xRed 7’s.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think I need to explain. We have a member who often rants about being cursed, the casinos are out to get him, other nonsense. The silliest thing he said, and he got a lot of pushback on it, was that the casinos were buying cheap Chinese cards instead of quality cards and that was why he was losing.
It's become a running forum joke on him. Any gaming equipment that doesn't do what you want it to do (which is win), someone mocks the idea of where something is made having anything to do with whether you will win or lose a hand.
There was no offense intended. In fact, the basis of the joke is a continued refutation of the idea, not supporting it. So it would be good if you could understand, being new to the board, that there was no racist comment, but the opposite, not allowing the original reference to stand unchallenged.
If you would like to see for yourself, look up the thread D Day in Vegas, started by ZenKing, the person being mocked for this type of nonsense excuses. Or take my word for it.
You are trying to make a distinction between:
(a) someone who makes an offensive remark in a joking manner knowing it is offensive
and
(b) someone who makes an offensive remark in a joking manner but is ignorant said remark is offensive
The topic of China reminds me of a joke I heard a few weeks ago. From a Chinese-American lounge singer/pianist on a cruise ship I was on:
Chinese man walks into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder, and the parrot proceeds to order him a drink. Bartender says, "Where'd you get that? And how can I get one?". Parrot says, "Go to China- they have like a billion of them over there."
And to put this thread back on topic, It looks like it got stuck in the crack. I'd find it hard to believe you'd be able to exploit this without recording millions of rolls. And even then, it would require millions upon millions to manifest the minuscule +EV resulting from this.
Quote: RomesI wish the thread would stay on track - I'm find it intriguing that the shaved corners from wear and tear could lead to a bias (as it would role away from the number of which corner it's on and thus towards the number on the opposite side). More info about this plz, and less about the OBVIOUS JOKE REFERRING TO THE CHINESE PRESHUFFLED CARDS ZENKING CLAIMS. Thanks.
Yeah this thread took a bizarre turn lol. Some more on topic discussion would be great, since this potentially opens up some opportunities.
Quote: cwazyIt's hard to tell because of all the scratches on the glass, but there is no crack in the felt. You're seeing a reflection of the line in the plastic that is outside of the glass. The die was sitting on its corner, in the same position, for several minutes. While waiting for someone to reset the machine, one player gave his terminal a shove, which made the die visibly wobble a bit but it still didn't fall of its corner. Honestly it was the among the weirdest things I have ever seen in a casino.
You can see the same effect when the interior lights are off (before the roll) in this video. It looks like there's a crack, but when the lights turn on, you can see that there isn't one.
I stand corrected.
How much bias that dice wear could cause is hard to say, but I assume the dice in these machines is rarely, if ever, replaced.
Quote: Melco
And to put this thread back on topic, It looks like it got stuck in the crack. I'd find it hard to believe you'd be able to exploit this without recording millions of rolls. And even then, it would require millions upon millions to manifest the minuscule +EV resulting from this.
Again, there’s no crack in the platform. It just looks that way because of the reflection from the separation of two plastic panels outside the glass that have blue lights on. If the lights had been on inside, it would be more clear that there is no crack.
And no, it doesn’t take millions of rolls to detect bias.
Eh, more like 10,000-20,000... similar to a roulette wheel.Quote: cwazyAgain, there’s no crack in the platform. It just looks that way because of the reflection. If the lights had been on inside, it would be more clear.
And no, it doesn’t take millions of rolls to detect bias.
Second, any craps player with any amount of experience has seen a die spin like a top for several seconds before finally falling flat. If these jumbo dice occasionally also spin, then since the corner is rounded, it makes sense that they would merely slow to a stop without necessarily falling flat.
Third, if there is any sort of flattening of the rounded corner due to wear, then there is a strong likelihood that all the corners have similar flattening.
Fourth, Even if there is flattening of only one corner, I fail to see how such a defect can be exploited.
What's really surprising about this photo and story is that a technician had to come to reset the dice. Why couldn't the machine make that determination itself? Surely the cameras that detect the result could also detect this unique situation and declare a 'no roll', and start the vibration thing again. Only if there are two 'corner' results in a row should the machine contact a technician.
Om a somewhat related note, at G2E 2016, I saw a new craps machine (don't remember the brand) that had three of those oversize rounded dice, but each in it's own shaker. The 'shooter' chose two dice.
At one point, one of the dies 'landed' on it's corner, albeit leaning against the glass. Someone from the booth had to open the machine to hit the reset. I wanted to ask why the machine couldn't make that determination on it's own, but didn't get the chance.
I couldn't get a good photo, but you can still see what I'm talking about.
Quote: RomesEh, more like 10,000-20,000... similar to a roulette wheel.
Wizard once did a Chi Square analysis to prove that a certain online casino was cheating. If I remember correctly, it was on Craps, and after something like 300 rolls he determined that the odds of those results being naturally occurring were astronomically high - hundreds of millions or billions to one. So it may take less than 10k rolls depending on your technique. I’ll have to look back and see if I can find the article.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
What's really surprising about this photo and story is that a technician had to come to reset the dice. Why couldn't the machine make that determination itself? Surely the cameras that detect the result could also detect this unique situation and declare a 'no roll', and start the vibration thing again. Only if there are two 'corner' results in a row should the machine contact a technician.
There had been an unreadable result a few rolls prior to this (die was jammed against a corner). On that roll, it called “No Dice” and rolled again on its own. When this occurred, it froze and locked up all terminals until somebody came to reset it.
Quote: cwazyWizard once did a Chi Square analysis to prove that a certain online casino was cheating. If I remember correctly, it was on Craps, and after something like 300 rolls he determined that the odds of those results being naturally occurring were astronomically high - hundreds of millions or billions to one. So it may take less than 10k rolls depending on your technique. I’ll have to look back and see if I can find the article.
The number of trials needed to estimate the likelihood of bias will depend on how biased the results are. In this case, I would expect you would need thousands of rolls because I doubt that bubble craps dice are very biased.
Quote: cwazyFor the physicists/math guys out there, the pictures below were taken last night on a Shoot To Win Craps machine. You might not be able to tell, but neither die is touching the other. The die sat in this position, propped on its corner, for several minutes until they came to reset the machine. Is this physically possible without the die being warped in some way?
Looking at the corners again, easily there is enough "flatness" to stand on their ends. That die probably hit the other and instead of falling over, the die sitting flat blocked it and it rocked back without enough momentum to fall all the way back over.
Quote: Ibeatyouraces]
Looking at the corners again, easily there is enough "flatness" to stand on their ends. That die probably hit the other and instead of falling over, the die sitting flat blocked it and it rocked back without enough momentum to fall all the way back over.
I can tell you that it didn't hit the other on its way to falling over. It was rolling over (slowly) and then just stopped. Anyway, they are designed to not do that - it's hard to tell with all the scratches on the glass but if you've seen these dice in person, I think you'd agree that they should always fall off the corners.
I guess the only way to know for sure is to run the analysis, assuming they haven't changed these dice out.
Jay Leno is not funny whatsoever. As you should know by now, it's an inside joke on this forum, as well as being a bigot is an inside joke. Don't take it literally. As you can understand, there is nothing in the picture to indicate the dice are Chinese, so the comment must refer to something else. The humor is because the comment is absurd, it makes zero sense, beyond being sarcastic to gripes about losing in black jack, because the cards are Chinese.Quote: CAD21. My reply to you was that your comment was borderline “racist” (btw, being a racist does not equate to being a bigot because one can be a bigot and not a racist) - you didn’t grow up being on the receiving end of “Chinese” comments (where Chinese when used as an adjective was meant in a derogatory manner or as an ethnic slur).
2. The “bigoted” comment was directed to the person who thought making ethnic jokes was “funny”. Just ask Jay Leno if he thinks ethnic jokes are “funny”.
3. I am not responsible if you lack the intelligence or sensitivity that “Chinese” when used as an adjective is considered racist in the context you employed. Whether you intended offense is irrelevant - this is 2018, not the 1950’s.
The bottomline is your (borderline racist) comment in the context it was written is offensive.
Quote: onenickelmiracleJay Leno is not funny whatsoever.
Lies!!!
Quote: CAD2You are trying to make a distinction between:
(a) someone who makes an offensive remark in a joking manner knowing it is offensive
and
(b) someone who makes an offensive remark in a joking manner but is ignorant said remark is offensive
I disagree. You are looking for the opportunity to be offended. I can see your initial concern, as the remark is out of context in this thread, but now you're just defensive.
Quote: RogerKintThis is what happens when an inside joke goes outside. Women start marching with vaginas on their heads.
Ouch. I hurt myself laughing. Really.
I'm not going to hold it against you. Ever.
Quote: gamerfreakWhy doesn't the machine roll the dice again if it gets stuck in a weird position like that? Gaming regulations?
Usually it will but sometimes it shuts down and requires a tech to restart.
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree. You are looking for the opportunity to be offended. I can see your initial concern, as the remark is out of context in this thread, but now you're just defensive.
No, it’s just you used the often tried “precedent” argument (which doesn’t hold water). In the past “White” Southern folks would lynch “Negroes” or “Colored folks” and would justify the behavior because other Southners would had done the same before; recall, you are the one who raised the issues of double standards. One standard for the people who did the “lynching”, and another standard for the one being lynched. It’s exactly your inside joke argument — you tried to justify the comment saying it’s acceptable. Lynching is not acceptable no matter if there was a buddy system that condones it and neither is making offensive “Chinese” slurs (the ignorance notwithstanding).
For the record, I am not Chinese but many racists thought I was Chinese and would deliberately direct Chinese slurs towards me. Other racists thought I was Japanese. And other racists thought I was Korean.
For the record, the use of “Chinese” as a racial slur has been in the American lexicon since about the 1860’s (I know since I researched it in college). It’s sad that it’s 2018 and this site condones ethnic slurs by saying “it’s an inside joke” or that it should be obvious that this buddy system has agreed this ethnic slur is acceptable. Lynching negroes or colored folks was acceptable for a long time in the South.
So I’m not one bit surprised after learning of the buddy system that you would play the “I’m being defensive” card. Maybe it’s because you’re insensitive because your use of precedent argument was more offensive than said comment.
Cheers
Quote: CAD2It is not a “joke” unless you are a bigot. Jokes about nationalities or race or ethnicity are not funny - you can ask Jay Leno.
For too long, Americans were using “Chinese” (as a nationality or race or ethnicity) to make fun of the situation.
It’s in the American lexicon:
“Chinese” home run
“Chinese” fire drill
And if you weren’t so bigoted in your views, you should have known there are such things as Chinese Dice (try Google).
You forgot about the Chinese Downhill in “Hot Dog The Movie”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qe3HBqFhTU
