CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
I would like some, especially the white ones with the black pips that look like dominoes used to. The kind that they use at the Colorado Belle in Laughlin. I tried to buy some but they don't sell the cancelled ones, just some round edge game dice.Quote: Zcore13I offered to get them casino dice direct from the source and they ignored it completely
In your opinion [or fact if you have it] why doesn't Arizona allow craps?
Are casino's trying or wanting to install tables on the floor?
Did you play craps in Laughlin when you went up there? Where at?
Quote: petroglyphIn your opinion [or fact if you have it] why doesn't Arizona allow craps?
See this:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/claythompson/2014/04/08/clay-thompson-arizona-indian-casinos-craps/7442001/
Quote: SanchoPanzaThat is a lot more than I would have offered if I had your position. As long you're being so typically willing, could you tell us who is the manufacturer of those dice?
I do business with GPI, Avalon Gaming, Rye Park Gaming, Gemaco (now part of GPI) and U.S. Playing Cards. I'm sure I could also hit up Bally/SHFL and Galaxy Gaming for any others I needed.
ZCore13
Quote: petroglyphI would like some, especially the white ones with the black pips that look like dominoes used to. The kind that they use at the Colorado Belle in Laughlin. I tried to buy some but they don't sell the cancelled ones, just some round edge game dice.
In your opinion [or fact if you have it] why doesn't Arizona allow craps?
Are casino's trying or wanting to install tables on the floor?
Did you play craps in Laughlin when you went up there? Where at?
When the State approved Table Games about 13 years ago, they approved games decided by the use of cards. Craps, Roulette, Big Six and other such games are not included because cards are not the deciding factor.
It is just a matter of time before it becomes legal. I've talked to the Department of gaming about it and they are not against it. I specifically wanted to be the first in Arizona to bring in live roulette when we open our new Casino in about a year and a half. It would just take a Casino's attorney to draft up requested changes to the State Compact and present to the Department of Gaming for consideration. Then it would have to go to the Governor, who may or may not approve it. The whole process could take years and probably a good amount of money. My guess would be that it would have to come from a larger Tribe that has Attorney's on Staff, rather than a smaller one (like mine and many others) that contract their Attorney work out to a specific Law Firm.
I play craps and Table Games in Laughlin and Las Vegas. Mostly Harrah's properties and The Cosmopolitan where they take pretty good care of me.
ZCore13
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: petroglyphIn your opinion [or fact if you have it] why doesn't Arizona allow craps?
See this:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/claythompson/2014/04/08/clay-thompson-arizona-indian-casinos-craps/7442001/
Thanks,
I read the article, it implies what I wondered about loosely and that is that somehow craps is less moral than slots or Black Jack?
IDK, maybe it is, but it is the game I like to play. Each to their own of course, but I prefer the table over the "razzle dazzle" of themed slot games and the noise that goes with them.
There has been a lot of guys from all over the county saying the same thing that there are a lot of dice that are now being used in the casinos that are out of balance!
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As we all know, and someone already pointed out, there's lots of guys who believe in all kinds of things, especially when it comes to gambling. Just head over to the baccarat threads. You'll catch a big enough dose of the craziness to last you a lifetime. People spend as much as $600 for baccarat system classes.
Furthermore, the DI's, schools and hot/cold shooter crowd needs an excuse why they can't beat craps. Guys don't want to admit they either don't have the skill or DI is not possible.
It's easier to believe the casinos are F___ing you, than to blame the real reasons. They now have an excuse to tell their wives and friends. " Sorry honey I spent over 2k for classes software and equipment, spent countless hours practicing, and blew our life savings playing. I'm a great DI, I would've been a rich man had it not been for the casinos cheating with biased dice."
Also someone needs to sell some "verified dice" to the sucker.
Maybe for an extra $699.00 you get the advanced bias dice classes, complete with a list of casinos.
Who knows what agenda they have.
Quote: AxelWolfCan someone wake me up when they find someone that can legitimately influence dice and make money doing so.
Or when someone can make money exploiting biased dice, not people by selling book, classes, dice or whatever BS they are selling or agenda they have.
""I'm certain this thread was started with the intentions of touting something for a profit.""
Wrong~O AxleWolf!
I started this thread some 16,000 views ago in an effort to resolve the "" CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"", I have nothing to sell, nor am I associated with anyone selling Craps Related Paraphernalia.
To this end, I provided significant data on dice, etc. in my #1 Post ~ link below, why not review it?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/21764-craps-dice-unbalance-mystery-dice-physical-data/
I also reported that I found all 15 dice in the three sleeves of dice that I purchased, new, over the internet to be balanced to my satisfaction, on a free spinning dice caliper, & from dimensional & weight analysis of those dice, that they were; individual sleeve wise, manufactured under good manufacturing processes.
These findings conflicted directly with loads of information about unbalanced dice floating around on the internet & the following link:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8b_1430149281
Yes, contrary to the Nay~Swayers posting on this thread, those dice have been verified to be "unbalanced" & right in front of your very eyes.
The comparison of the two events above brings up the thread ""CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"".
If posters on this thread would focus upon resolving this Mystery, rather than refusing to accept that some dice used in casino's are in fact "UNBALANCED" things may move ahead.
Nay~Swayers predominant postings center around the following:
A) All dice are unbalanced
B) Unbalanced dice, so what
C) Ridiculous, no casino would risk their licensee to employ Unbalanced Dice
D) No effect on one's throw from Dice Unbalance
E) Dice in the Video likely have been modified
F) You cannot believe anything posted on the internet
F) etc.
Illogical reasoning from the Nay~Swayers runs rampant on this thread.
Just how & where Casino's Obtain " BIASED DICE " remains a Mystery that we all need to resolve, if we are to solve the title of this thread, i.e. ""CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"".
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2If posters on this thread would focus upon resolving this Mystery, rather than refusing to accept that some dice used in casino's are in fact "UNBALANCED" things may move ahead.
Illogical reasoning from the Nay~Swayers runs rampant on this thread.
Just how & where Casino's Obtain " BIASED DICE " remains a Mystery that we all need to resolve
You have not demonstrated that casinos obtain or use biased dice. You have merely posted a video of two dice that were never used in a casino, potentially being unbalanced via caliper test. You have not yet made the connection between that caliper test and unfair statistical results, and you have certainly not made a demonstrable connection between those two dice in the video and dice that are actually used in casinos. How can you possibly justify your belief that the dice used in casinos are unbalanced when you have never examined a single casino-used die for bias?
Your own glass house is built from illogic. Best not to throw those particular stones at others.
Wrong~O eagleeye2. I bet you are as confident in 16000+ views as you are in your biased dice theories.Quote: eagleeye2Wrong~O AxleWolf!
I started this thread some 16,000 views ago in an effort to resolve the "" CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"", I have nothing to sell, nor am I associated with anyone selling Craps Related Paraphernalia.
I bet you 2 to 1 I can prove this thread has not had over 16000 Views and your probably off by more than 3k.
Again, put your money where your mouth is and see. You only see what you want to see, what someone or something tells you. But hey! its right there in blue and white, you seen it with your own eyes then you quoted it as if its the truth, without any real scientific investigation. It must be true. Don't fool yourself ,like you have with biased dice. There hasn't been close to 16k views(not even by the same people). So put up 1k in escrow and we will have someone independent determine the winner of the bet. Then we can move on and bet if we can find a significant amount of bias dice with actual real testing.
The way you determined that there are +16k views, is my point exactly. That's probably exactly how your determined there are biased dice. You seen something and believed it to be true. Then you used it to help bolster something: All your science and methods of figuring something out seems to be significantly off BY HUGE FACTORS. You see what you think you see, or read, and then perceive it as fact. Then you quote and spread it as the truth and facts, meanwhile no real investigation has been done, not even close.
Your scientific and investigation credibility has been shot IMO.
Your entire case is built on 1 or 2 videos and the word of some agenda driven crazy people.
Quote: AxelWolfWrong~O eagleeye2. I bet you are as confident in 16000+ views as you are in your biased dice theories.
I bet you 2 to 1 I can prove this thread has not had over 16000 Views and your probably off by more than 3k.
Again, put your money where your mouth is and see. You only see what you want to see, what someone or something tells you. But hey! its right there in blue and white, you seen it with your own eyes then you quoted it as if its the truth, without any real scientific investigation. It must be true. Don't fool yourself ,like you have with biased dice. There hasn't been close to 16k views(not even by the same people). So put up 1k in escrow and we will have someone independent determine the winner of the bet. Then we can move on and bet if we can find a significant amount of bias dice with actual real testing.
The way you determined that there are +16k views, is my point exactly. That's probably exactly how your determined there are biased dice. You seen something and believed it to be true. Then you used it to help bolster something: All your science and methods of figuring something out seems to be significantly off BY HUGE FACTORS. You see what you think you see, or read, and then perceive it as fact. Then you quote and spread it as the truth and facts, meanwhile no real investigation has been done, not even close.
Your scientific and investigation credibility has been shot IMO.
Your entire case is built on 1 or 2 videos and the word of some agenda driven crazy people.
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AxleWolf,
True to form, you ignore the subject of this thread & proceed with the S.O.S., from your previous posts, thereby documenting your closed mind, to the subject at hand.
I assume that you will continue to ignore what is presented in the Links below, however, reasonably prudent individuals reading them, will not!
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )
( http://dicecraps.blogspot.com/search/label/Biased%20Dice )
( http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d8b_1430149281 )
( http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html )
( http://www.dicesetter.com/Casino%20Dice%20Surveys/Bias%20Dice.htm )
( http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/store/p/1876-Dice-Balancing-Caliper.aspx )
Thus, you will not believe that:
That the Dice I Purchased (Likely Manufactured in Mexico) were different than the AXIS Power Craps Dice Stated to be Manufactured In Las Vegas NV & utilized in Most Las Vegas Casino's period!
Yes, Eyes are Necessary to Establish Balance or Unbalance With the Aid of a dice caliper. My Eyes & Dice Caliper Said all 15 Dice I Purchased Were Balanced!
My Eyes when Viewing this Video ( View, with your own EYES how these Dice are 100% unbalanced in favor of the # (6) Face here:
I posted ""1) Somehow weight the # 5 & 6 Faces, which produce an abnormal # of 1's & 2's."" Yada, Yada, Yada...
Yes, that is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY answer to this Video that is possible: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be ).
2) And why do you trust that the credentials listed on that page are legitimate at all? How do you know he didn't just make up all that stuff?
First, I would ask your "Experts to lay out what you have UNCOVERED, relative to Unbalanced Dice! When I found B.S. I'd dismiss your list!
3) I have Read in it's Entirety the Material Contained in this LINK: ( http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html ) and I have JUDGED the Material therein to be Through, Honestly Portrayed & reasonably accurate. Therefore, I Believe what is posted by them.
Folks, check the material in the links & decide for yourself.
My concern is with Casino's Employing Unbalanced Dice... Thus all Craps Players are Frequently Playing Craps With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It, giving up an estimated 2% In Craps Profit to the Casino's, in the process
I Ask ~ Are You Individually Happy Betting Your Hard Earned $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
Absolutely adore the soundtrack. Anywhere I can purchase the DVD for $1.98 or less? Or maybe I should just transcribe it myself.Quote: eagleeye2Yes, that is ABSOLUTELY the ONLY answer to this Video that is possible: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be ).
Quote: eagleeye2That the Dice I Purchased (Likely Manufactured in Mexico) were different than the AXIS Power Craps Dice Stated to be Manufactured In Las Vegas NV & utilized in Most Las Vegas Casino's period!
You keep saying this but there are no major dice brands are manufactured in Las Vegas. Your facts are false. What other falsehoods are you relying on?
You can't plausibly claim to have discovered biased dice in casinos when you have never actually measured the dice in casinos.
Quote: MathExtremistYou keep saying this but there are no major dice brands are manufactured in Las Vegas. Your facts are false. What other falsehoods are you relying on?
You can't plausibly claim to have discovered biased dice in casinos when you have never actually measured the dice in casinos.
MathExtremist,
What, you totally disagree with this bunch of EXPERTS?
( http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html )
Much more knowledge about Casino Dice there, than you will ever have!
The second link Verifies New unstamped dice, as well as Used cancelled dice from several Casino's as Unbalanced; on a Dice Balancing Caliper like that in the second link, rendering your post to the B.S. pile.
The third link shows a Dice Balancing caliper, as referred to herein
( http://dicecraps.blogspot.com/search/label/Biased%20Dice ) ~ Series of Links Contained Within
( http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/store/p/1876-Dice-Balancing-Caliper.aspx )
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2MathExtremist,
What, you totally disagree with this bunch of EXPERTS?
( http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html )
Much more knowledge about Casino Dice there, than you will ever have!
The second link Verifies New unstamped dice, as well as Used cancelled dice from several Casino's as Unbalanced; on a Dice Balancing Caliper like that in the second link, rendering your post to the B.S. pile.
The third link shows a Dice Balancing caliper, as referred to herein
( http://dicecraps.blogspot.com/search/label/Biased%20Dice ) ~ Series of Links Contained Within
( http://www.gamblersgeneralstore.com/store/p/1876-Dice-Balancing-Caliper.aspx )
eagleeye2
eagleeye2,
Stop posting the same links numerous times. I consider this spamming and have given you more than enough latitude on it; I'm now wondering if you're getting paid for clicks on these sites. New information or it's spam, please. That includes re-pasting things from earlier in the thread. Thanks!
Quote: beachbumbabseagleeye2,
Stop posting the same links numerous times. I consider this spamming and have given you more than enough latitude on it; I'm now wondering if you're getting paid for clicks on these sites. New information or it's spam, please. That includes re-pasting things from earlier in the thread. Thanks!
Totally agree. It's like he can't make a point on his own without posting the same links over and over and over again. Almost the exact same reply to offers of acquiring casino dice, to facts that prove his information wrong, to legitimate replies to his incorrect assumptions. I'm sure there must be a rule about posting the same thing over and over again.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I do business with GPI, Avalon Gaming, Rye Park Gaming, Gemaco (now part of GPI) and U.S. Playing Cards. I'm sure I could also hit up Bally/SHFL and Galaxy Gaming for any others I needed.
ZCore13
So, just like SanchoPanza, ZCore also works for a Casino.
That alone could explain content of their postings...
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2So, just like SanchoPanza, ZCore also works for a Casino.
That alone could explain content of their postings...
eagleeye2
that makes about as much sense as your other posts. What about all the other people hear that do not work at a casino? What about there not even being craps available in the state that I work? it doesn't matter where you work to question false information and repetitive posts.
ZCore13
Quote: eagleeye2What, you totally disagree with this bunch of EXPERTS?
We've been over this. I don't believe a word your anonymous collection of self-titled "experts" has to say on the topic. I also don't believe their credentials, not for a second. Nobody who holds a Ph.D. in mathematics, let alone two of them, would ever make the sort of unfounded, baseless assertions that you're making.
Quote: Federal Rules of Evidence, Rule 702: Testimony by Expert WitnessesA witness who is qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an opinion or otherwise if:
(a) the expert’s scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will help the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue;
(b) the testimony is based on sufficient facts or data;
(c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods; and
(d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts of the case.
You have claimed that many, if not all, dice used in casino craps games are biased. However:
1) You have tested exactly zero dice that were actually used in casino craps games. That's insufficient data.
2) You have concluded that all casino dice are biased based on some irrelevant investigation into other dice that were never used in a casino. That's an unreliable principle.
3) You have no apparent relevant scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge. You are unqualified to opine as an expert.
The methodology you have used in your attempt to prove that basically all casino dice are biased is simply unreliable and unsound. It wouldn't get past a judge and it won't fly here either.
If you have actual data about actual casino dice that you've actually collected, let's see it. But not someone else's stories from six years ago based on anonymous self-proclaimed experts. That's unverifiable and therefore irrelevant.
Quote: MathExtremistYou are unqualified to opine as an expert.
Nor, apparently, even as a layman.
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this, ME
Only ONE ~ GameScience. "GameScience Dice currently not being manufactured due to an ownership conflict.""
""GameScience: manufacturer of precision dice with sharp edges. They are sold un-inked, but GameScience claims they roll more true than other gaming dice (our research shows this is true, but all roll randomly enough for gaming purposes). GameScience dice are made in the USA, and is the only major manufacturer to do so. GameScience dice are currently not being manufactured due to an ownership conflict.""
Anyone know which Las Vegas Casinos, if any, Employ GameScience Casino Dice?
eagleeye2
Quote: beachbumbabseagleeye2,
I'm now wondering if you're getting paid for clicks on these sites. New information or it's spam, please. That includes re-pasting things from earlier in the thread. Thanks!
beachbumbabs,
You can QUIT wondering, I am NOT getting Paid for Clicks on any LINK in EXISTANCE!
eagleeye2
Quote: MathExtremistWe've been over this. I don't believe a word your anonymous collection of self-titled "experts" has to say on the topic. I also don't believe their credentials, not for a second. Nobody who holds a Ph.D. in mathematics, let alone two of them, would ever make the sort of unfounded, baseless assertions that you're making.
You have claimed that many, if not all, dice used in casino craps games are biased. However:
1) You have tested exactly zero dice that were actually used in casino craps games. That's insufficient data.
2) You have concluded that all casino dice are biased based on some irrelevant investigation into other dice that were never used in a casino. That's an unreliable principle.
3) You have no apparent relevant scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge. You are unqualified to opine as an expert.
The methodology you have used in your attempt to prove that basically all casino dice are biased is simply unreliable and unsound. It wouldn't get past a judge and it won't fly here either.
If you have actual data about actual casino dice that you've actually collected, let's see it. But not someone else's stories from six years ago based on anonymous self-proclaimed experts. That's unverifiable and therefore irrelevant.
MathExtreamistr,
You Exhibit Totally Flawed Logic in your conclusions, makking that post irrelevant as you say!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2Current Casino Dice Manufacturing in the U.S.A.
Only ONE ~ GameScience. "GameScience Dice currently not being manufactured due to an ownership conflict.""
""GameScience: manufacturer of precision dice with sharp edges. They are sold un-inked, but GameScience claims they roll more true than other gaming dice (our research shows this is true, but all roll randomly enough for gaming purposes). GameScience dice are made in the USA, and is the only major manufacturer to do so. GameScience dice are currently not being manufactured due to an ownership conflict.""
Anyone know which Las Vegas Casinos, if any, Employ GameScience Casino Dice?
Wrong again.
GameScience makes tabletop RPG dice, not precision casino dice. You can get d20s from GameScience the same way you can from Chessex, and they are indeed back to manufacturing. Here's their website: http://www.gamesciencedice.com
However, I doubt any casinos anywhere are using GameScience dice. Here are two of their products:
On the other hand, Midwest Game Supply manufactures precision casino dice in Missouri. Which is, you know, also in the U.S.A.
Somebody has not bothered to look at my many posts critical of various casinos in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and other venues. Jumping to off-the-wall conclusions is not conducive to any intelligent discussion.Quote: eagleeye2So, just like SanchoPanza, ZCore also works for a Casino. That alone could explain content of their postings.
Quote: SanchoPanzaSomebody has not bothered to look at my many posts critical of various casinos in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and other venues. Jumping to off-the-wall conclusions is not conducive to any intelligent discussion.
Here's another conclusion that's not conducive to intelligent discussion:
"I saw a video on YouTube of wobbly dice, and someone told me they were made by a casino dice manufacturer, so I now believe that all dice used in casinos are biased. Even though I bought some dice from another casino dice manufacturer and those weren't."
Quote: MathExtremistWrong again.
GameScience makes tabletop RPG dice, not precision casino dice. You can get d20s from GameScience the same way you can from Chessex, and they are indeed back to manufacturing. Here's their website: http://www.gamesciencedice.com
However, I doubt any casinos anywhere are using GameScience dice. Here are two of their products:
On the other hand, Midwest Game Supply manufactures precision casino dice in Missouri. Which is, you know, also in the U.S.A.
You are right, no Casino would use the Dice in the Link below & they are listed as HOME Dice.
Bet they would be tough to Balance with the Rounded Corners (shown in the link).
http://www.gamesciencedice.com/-19mm-Translucent-d6--One-Pair-_p_58.html
eagleeye2
Quote: SanchoPanzaSomebody has not bothered to look at my many posts critical of various casinos in Las Vegas, Atlantic City and other venues. Jumping to off-the-wall conclusions is not conducive to any intelligent discussion.
SanchoPanza,
I ahve made tht judgement based on your postings to thjis thrad only.
eaGLEEYE2
Quote: MathExtremistHere's another conclusion that's not conducive to intelligent discussion:
"I saw a video on YouTube of wobbly dice, and someone told me they were made by a casino dice manufacturer, so I now believe that all dice used in casinos are biased. Even though I bought some dice from another casino dice manufacturer and those weren't."
MathExtreamist, & who made that Post, it WAS NOt me???
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2MathExtreamist, & who made that Post, it WAS NOt me???
eagleeye2
Here is Midwest Gaming Supply's specifications for it's Certified Perfect dice:
"Dice Specifications"
All our Certified Perfects Craps Dice are manufactured to the following Specifications....
(a) Each die used in gaming at Craps shall:
(1) Be formed in the shape of a perfect cube and of a size no smaller than 0.750 of an inch on each side nor any larger than 0.775 of an inch on each side;
(2) Be manufactured to an accuracy tolerance of no greater than .0002 of an inch;
(3) Transparent and made exclusively of cellulose except for the spots, name of the casino and serial numbers or letters contained thereon;
(4) Have the surface of each of its sides perfectly flat and the spots contained in each side perfectly flush with the area surrounding them;
(5) Have all edges and corners perfectly square, that is forming perfect 90 degree angles;
(6) Have the texture and finish of each side exactly identical to the texture and finish of all other sides;
(7) Have its weight equally distributed throughout the cube and no side of the cube heavier or lighter than any other side of the cube;
(8) Have its six sides bearing white circular spots from one to six respectively with the diameter of each spot equal to the diameter of every other spot on the die;
(9) Have spots arranged so that the side containing one spot is directly opposite the side containing six spots, the side containing two spots directly opposite the side containing five spots and the side containing three spots is directly opposite the side containing four spots; and
(10) Have the name of the casino in which the die is being used imprinted or impressed thereon.
(b) Each spot shall be placed on the die by drilling into the surface of the cube and filling the drilled out portion with a compound equal in weight to the weight of the cellulose drilled out and which will form a permanent bond with the cellulose cube.
(c) Each spot shall extend into the cube exactly the same distance as every other spot extends into the cube to an accuracy tolerance of 0.0004 of an inch.
Items #7 & #10 b would indicate that tehese Dice would be Perfectly Balanced:
7) Have its weight equally distributed throughout the cube and no side of the cube heavier or lighter than any other side of the cube;
10b) Each spot shall be placed on the die by drilling into the surface of the cube and filling the drilled out portion with a compound equal in weight to the weight of the cellulose drilled out and which will form a permanent bond with the cellulose cube.
Yet, Midwest makes no mention of their Dice Being essentially Balanced, on a Dice Balancing Caliper.
Checking some Midwest "Certified Perfect Dice" on a Dice Balancing Caliper, & assuming they are Balanced would appear to clear Midwest's "Certified Perfect Dice" from the "Verified Unbalanced Dice floating around some Casino's.
eagleeye2
OBVIOUSLY been saying that from the beginning.Quote: beachbumbabseagleeye2,
Stop posting the same links numerous times. I consider this spamming and have given you more than enough latitude on it; I'm now wondering if you're getting paid for clicks on these sites. New information or it's spam, please. That includes re-pasting things from earlier in the thread. Thanks!
Quote: AxelWolfOBVIOUSLY been saying that from the beginning.
Dam, AxleWolf attempting to stir up trouble again, why not try contributing?
The Midwest ggaming Dice specifications have NOT been posgted beforee, DUH!
eagleeye2
NO.Quote: eagleeye2Dam, AxleWolf attempting to stir up trouble again, why not try contributing?
The Midwest ggaming Dice specifications have NOT been posgted beforee, DUH!
eagleeye2
There's a difference between string up trouble and calling it like I see it. I see it like this. You take everything you read, see, or watch as fact.
Again I will point out that you read with your own eyes that you had 16k+ Views on this thread, and took it on blind faith that was a fact, then you told us as if it were fact, but it isn't even close to that. Did you investigate why I said that? If so, you should realize
I have a feeling you had the same approach while concluding your biased dice theory. You said a few times, something along the lines of seeing it with your own eyes.
You also seen 16k+ thread views with your own eyes and automatically believed it to be the truth, yet it wasn't even close. Perhaps 4k to 11k is close enough to 16k for you.
It's obvious that you need very little evidence (that's possibility untrue) to convince you to accuse 2 entire industries of selling and using bias dice.
I contributed by making an offer regarding the cost of the dice if tested in a proper way by someone respectable and unbiased and the dice were found to be significantly biased. I suggested a video that shows everything from un-packaging to the end of testing.
You don't seem to like any idea that may contradict whatever agenda or theories you have. It seems 90% of your posts consist of repeating the same things.
Quote: ontariodealeraxlewolf is bang on the money. I wont comment on anything else as my suspensions seems to be double everyone elses.
ontariodealer,
Could one expect any less than agreeing with other Casino Employees?
Try to contribute to the subject of this thread, I know you can with your extensive experience.
Recall that I titled this thread "Dice Unbalance Mystery", the Mystery part is how some Dice are essentially Balanced on a Dice Balancing Caliper, while others supposedly made to the same standards are UNBALANCED.
Also, why virtually NO Casino properly checks for Dice Balance on a Dice Balancing Caliper?
eagleeye2
Quote: ontariodealeraxlewolf is bang on the money. I wont comment on anything else as my suspensions seems to be double everyone elses.
ontariodealer,
Could one expect any less than agreeing with other Casino Employees?
Try to contribute to the subject of this thread, I know you can with your extensive experience.
Recall that I titled this thread "Dice Unbalance Mystery", the Mystery part is how some Dice are essentially Balanced on a Dice Balancing Caliper, while others supposedly made to the same standards are UNBALANCED.
Also, why virtually NO Casino properly checks for Dice Balance on a Dice Balancing Caliper?
eagleeye2
Quote: AxelWolfNO.
It's obvious that you need very little evidence (that's possibility untrue) to convince you to accuse 2 entire industries of selling and using bias dice.
I contributed by making an offer regarding the cost of the dice if tested in a proper way by someone respectable and unbiased and the dice were found to be significantly biased. I suggested a video that shows everything from un-packaging to the end of testing.
You don't seem to like any idea that may contradict whatever agenda or theories you have. It seems 90% of your posts consist of repeating the same things.[/q
AxleWolfr,
Since you trust no one, even a group of acknowledged EXPERTS, (link for which I provided previously ~ Yes, I'd repost it, but then I'd get hit for spamming) ) why not borrow the spare Dice Balancing Caliper from your Casino & Properly run Dice Balancing Testing for Dice made by several Companies, then report it back here?
A video of your set-up & testting would be nice, but not necessary in the quest, subject of this thread.
eagleeye2
eaGLEEYE2
Quote: eagleeye2Since you trust no one, even a group of acknowledged EXPERTS, (link for which I provided previously)
An anonymous list of invented credentials on a conspiracy-theorist's website does not qualify as "a group of acknowledged EXPERTS."
Acknowledged by you doesn't count. You've already admitted that you haven't met any of them and don't even know who they are.
Quote: FaceNor, apparently, even as a layman.
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting on this, ME
My pleasure. I'm just trying to point out that if the evidentiary standards for court testimony were followed by the conspiracy theorists -- whether it's biased dice, rigged slot machines, cheating dealers, whatever -- then it would be a lot easier to put these issues to bed.
I'd be just as interested as the next guy in learning that a casino was using biased dice, and it is indeed the purview of the state gaming control board to maintain the integrity of gaming, but the anonymous investigations that have been reported so far simply don't pass muster. If I were a state gaming regulator, the last thing I'd want to see come across my desk is a bunch of anonymous, unverifiable, and hysterical claims that casinos are cheating by using biased dice. Show me some verifiable and testable data and I'm listening.
I mean, imagine if a slot game vendor acted that way when trying to get a new slot game approved. "Our new 5-reel video slot game Giant African Mammals has four payback settings at 88%, 91%, 94% and 97%, but we're not going to show you the par sheets. You'll just have to trust us that the math is correct." Really?
These biased-dice conspiracy theorists are doing themselves no favors by hiding in the shadows, making up fake "expert" credentials, posting anonymous screeds on YouTube, and providing no verifiable, testable data. And they're surprised that nobody takes them seriously?
Quote: MathExtremistMy pleasure. I'm just trying to point out that if the evidentiary standards for court testimony were followed by the conspiracy theorists -- whether it's biased dice, rigged slot machines, cheating dealers, whatever -- then it would be a lot easier to put these issues to bed.
I'd be just as interested as the next guy in learning that a casino was using biased dice, and it is indeed the purview of the state gaming control board to maintain the integrity of gaming, but the anonymous investigations that have been reported so far simply don't pass muster. If I were a state gaming regulator, the last thing I'd want to see come across my desk is a bunch of anonymous, unverifiable, and hysterical claims that casinos are cheating by using biased dice. Show me some verifiable and testable data and I'm listening.
I mean, imagine if a slot game vendor acted that way when trying to get a new slot game approved. "Our new 5-reel video slot game Giant African Mammals has four payback settings at 88%, 91%, 94% and 97%, but we're not going to show you the par sheets. You'll just have to trust us that the math is correct." Really?
These biased-dice conspiracy theorists are doing themselves no favors by hiding in the shadows, making up fake "expert" credentials, posting anonymous screeds on YouTube, and providing no verifiable, testable data. And they're surprised that nobody takes them seriously?
MathExtremist,
Glad to see that you accepted the challenge.
Also, nice to see that you are in Casino Management, your posting attitude reminds me of some management folks that I have dealt with in the past. Just loved to see them back peddling, when I helped uncover serious problems within their manufacturing processes!
You do not need to be so defensive about biased dice, properly used, the Dice Balancing Caliper will sort out those Dice that are Unbalanced relative to those that are Balanced.
Ideally, ALL Casino's would want to play only with Fair & Balanced Dice, as they have the % advantage to start wth, but that does not seem to be the case.
Hopefully you will undertake some testing & report back here.
eagleeye2
If this wasn't so hilarious, it might be considered an epithet or even, maybe, an insult.Quote: eagleeye2Could one expect any less than agreeing with other Casino Employees?
That is an outright falsehood, as I and many other players have personally seen the daily testing. Misstatements like this and the one about the lack of $5 minimums in Las Vegas deserve nothing but scorn.Quote: eagleeye2Also, why virtually NO Casino properly checks for Dice Balance on a Dice Balancing Caliper?
Quote: eagleeye2MathExtremist,
Glad to see that you accepted the challenge.
Also, nice to see that you are in Casino Management, your posting attitude reminds me of some management folks that I have dealt with in the past. Just loved to see them back peddling, when I helped uncover serious problems within their manufacturing processes!
You do not need to be so defensive about biased dice, properly used, the Dice Balancing Caliper will sort out those Dice that are Unbalanced relative to those that are Balanced.
Ideally, ALL Casino's would want to play only with Fair & Balanced Dice, as they have the % advantage to start wth, but that does not seem to be the case.
Hopefully you will undertake some testing & report back here.
eagleeye2
You are the one that should be doing the testing. Casinos pay for balanced dice. They've been tested and tested and tested, so now they don't need to test them because they know they are balanced. I casino dice manufacturer supplying dice to U.S. Casinos that was found to be delivering unbalanced dice would be out of business (at least that portion of their business) in no time.
Just a few years ago Gemaco, one of the largest casino playing card distributors in the world sold pre-shuffled decks of cards. They made a mistake and delivered non pre-shuffled cards to the Golden Nugget in New Jersey. 3 years later now, Gemaco settled with the Golden Nugget and they are no longer a company. They sold their assets to GPI.
I've offered those of you with no knowledge of real casino dice the opportunity to get them. I and others can also offer you insight on how gaming products are handled and secured. You've never asked. You've never inquired about any type of internal or external audits on dice that are used by casinos. You just continue to take the word of fake experts and un-verified videos with people covering their face.
I would hate to have you on a jury if anyone I know was ever accused of anything.
ZCore13
Quote: FaceI know, I know. I sort of feel the same; I just justify it by thinking I'm keeping the wheat separate from the chaff. I'd hate for an innocent to get sucked into this vortex.
There's just so much obviously wrong and shortsighted, yet all these doctors and engineers and physicists haven't seen it yet? I don't buy it. I almost think we're just arguing with a very well done program.
Quote: eagleeye2
With Face's explanation of Casino Security, when handling Incoming Dice, it appears that the Dice Manufacturer inadvertently, or for some reason Created the Unbalance that All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES!
OK! See, this actually is a possibility. We're talking about mass produced blocks of acrylic contracted out to the lowest bidder. Yes, these dice can be garbage.
But please, to "get real" and drop the garbage, as you say, let's forget any conspiracy. All that I listed in my previous post still applies. They'd have to be purposely biased by the manufacturer, people in the plant would know, they'd have to be identified in some manner and that manner would have to be communicated to the many members of TG, and on and on, including the risk for no gain that many involved would be taking. There's too many cooks in that particular broth to go off without a whistle. So let's skip that.
They very real possibility that the dice are simply junk and contain an imbalance is not only likely, I will even give it my stamp of approval (for whatever that's worth to you). I personally believe that not only is it likely, but that it's absolutely guaranteed. It just has to be.
The only questions that remain, the only ~~~Mystery that needs unraveling~~~, is does their imbalance have an effect on the outcome, and can it be detected by a man on the table during live play.
Now, I have no fancy initials after my name. The only title I have is "Mister", and that just barely. Additionally, I am legitimately brain damaged. Got the medical reports and MRI's and everything. And not only do I have almost no college on my resume, but I "passed" high school math with a 63. Teach gave me two points just so I could graduate (and also likely so he didn't have to deal with me anymore). That being said, even I have a general understanding of how one might go about answering those two questions posed. I think, given a few dice, a couple weeks of free time, and the help of just one person that knows Probability 101, I could even answer the question in its entirety.
Why have none of you done the same? With the brain power you claim to have behind you, the apparent interest in the subject, and the supposed time you've invested in this idea, all these answers, all the unraveling, should have been done a hundred times over by now.
So why isn't it?
axleWolf,
See, I gave Face cfredit with Casino Internal Security, drawing on the following conclusion as a result:
With Face's explanation of Casino Security, when handling Incoming Dice, it appears that the Dice Manufacturer inadvertently, or for some reason Created the Unbalance that All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2With Face's explanation of Casino Security, when handling Incoming Dice, it appears that the Dice Manufacturer inadvertently, or for some reason Created the Unbalance that All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES!
You still don't get it. The dice in the video you keep referring to were never used in a casino. They may look similar to casino dice but they were never actually used in a regulated casino craps game for money. It simply doesn't matter to regulators or the gambling public whether those specific two dice were biased, any more than it matters that your home roulette wheel has an electromagnet underneath it. (It's okay, I won't tell anyone.)
How many dice from Las Vegas casinos have you personally tested on a caliper? Have you tested any at all?
Quote: eagleeye2Quote: AxelWolfNO.
It's obvious that you need very little evidence (that's possibility untrue) to convince you to accuse 2 entire industries of selling and using bias dice.
I contributed by making an offer regarding the cost of the dice if tested in a proper way by someone respectable and unbiased and the dice were found to be significantly biased. I suggested a video that shows everything from un-packaging to the end of testing.
You don't seem to like any idea that may contradict whatever agenda or theories you have. It seems 90% of your posts consist of repeating the same things.[/q
AxleWolfr,
Since you trust no one, even a group of acknowledged EXPERTS, (link for which I provided previously ~ Yes, I'd repost it, but then I'd get hit for spamming) ) why not borrow the spare Dice Balancing Caliper from your Casino & Properly run Dice Balancing Testing for Dice made by several Companies, then report it back here?
A video of your set-up & testting would be nice, but not necessary in the quest, subject of this thread.
eagleeye2
eaGLEEYE2What could I possibly add to that. BTW I trust lots of people, just not crazy unknown people with agendas.Quote: MathExtremistAn anonymous list of invented credentials on a conspiracy-theorist's website does not qualify as "a group of acknowledged EXPERTS."
Acknowledged by you doesn't count. You've already admitted that you haven't met any of them and don't even know who they are.♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
"All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES" As I have already said, some people believe anything they see, read or hear. Kind of like you did with your 16+ views comment. You seen something one time and took it on faith it's accurate, then you used it to help your argument. Yet the information you believed was off by many thousands.Quote: eagleeye2axleWolf,
See, I gave Face cfredit with Casino Internal Security, drawing on the following conclusion as a result:
With Face's explanation of Casino Security, when handling Incoming Dice, it appears that the Dice Manufacturer inadvertently, or for some reason Created the Unbalance that All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES!
eagleeye2
I'm not sure who said it but there's a dam good reason they did. "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear."
ZCore13
Quote: MathExtremistYou still don't get it.
Not even a little bit. Let's condense all 400 posts into one paragraph.
Dude sees an experiment using dice that aren't even used in a casino, and extrapolates from that that all, some, or most casino dice are therefore unbalanced. He requests "help" to unravel this "mystery", which isn't a mystery at all. But despite that, help has been given by a number of people, all of whom have way more experience than he and, I'd argue, of the poster who supplied the balance test video, and every bit of help has been disregarded in favor of repeating the same tired claim. Almost no thought or discussion has been put into any of the help he has received, and I honestly have no idea what his point is anymore.
Eagle, there's nothing here. I am very glad you've dropped the conspiracy part of your thought process, as it gives me hope that you're a real person who can take in info and form a decision about it. But think about this for a second... craps has existed for a long time. Never, in the history of ever, have biased dice been proven or shown to have an influence either for or against the player. Other than sliders or loss reimbursements, craps is not in the AP playlist. In all of my AP searching when I was in regulation, never has craps been brought up. Never in all of the GamePro conferences I've attended, newsletters I've read, or training I've been a part of, never have biased die even been mentioned. What are the chances that the greatest minds in GamePro and the greatest minds in AP have all missed this up until now?
It's not a bad question. Even I have seen stuff or heard about stuff and been like "hey... wait a minute". But when I bring it up, I listen to what people have to say. I process it, discuss it, and the conversation moves forward. 400 posts and this one hasn't moved. You're still stuck on a baseless video from a faceless man using dice without a home.
Are you claiming I'm a casino employee and he's agreeing with me? That's absolutely laughable.Quote: eagleeye2ontariodealer,
Could one expect any less than agreeing with other Casino Employees?
Try to contribute to the subject of this thread, I know you can with your extensive experience.
Recall that I titled this thread "Dice Unbalance Mystery", the Mystery part is how some Dice are essentially Balanced on a Dice Balancing Caliper, while others supposedly made to the same standards are UNBALANCED.
Also, why virtually NO Casino properly checks for Dice Balance on a Dice Balancing Caliper?
eagleeye2
I Don't trust the casinos are testing dice properly either.
I don't know if the casinos are receiving significantly biased dice. I'm just not willing to accept the same repeated small amount of unverified evidence (probably cherry picked) as fact.
It's simple. Make arrangements for some real unbiased verified testing in a controlled environment.
they are not all testing them accurately, some are not testing at all.
I have seen most of the casino's here in Wisconsin test them and none of them test for actual
balance. As I have said before I saw the lady at Gold Coast test a number of dice and she did not
test for balance.
I am not saying they are cheating, I say they don't know how to do it.... and I have no explanation for
that.
dicesetter.
As a player my only options are to tell them if I see something funny or don't play. Now at times
maybe I am wrong.... but I don't care.... just the idea that enough players are paying attention
to the dice may make them do a better job.
