CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA

Quote: AxelWolf

"All that Viewed the Video's have seen with their own EYES" As I have already said, some people believe anything they see, read or hear. Kind of like you did with your 16+ views comment. You seen something one time and took it on faith it's accurate, then you used it to help your argument. Yet the information you believed was off by many thousands.

I'm not sure who said it but there's a dam good reason they did. "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear."

Quote: MathExtremist

You still don't get it. The dice in the video you keep referring to were never used in a casino. They may look similar to casino dice but they were never actually used in a regulated casino craps game for money. It simply doesn't matter to regulators or the gambling public whether those specific two dice were biased, any more than it matters that your home roulette wheel has an electromagnet underneath it. (It's okay, I won't tell anyone.)

How many dice from Las Vegas casinos have you personally tested on a caliper? Have you tested any at all?

Quote: SanchoPanza

If this wasn't so hilarious, it might be considered an epithet or even, maybe, an insult.
That is an outright falsehood, as I and many other players have personally seen the daily testing. Misstatements like this and the one about the lack of $5 minimums in Las Vegas deserve nothing but scorn.

Quote: eagleeye2

SanchoPanza,

Please tell the thread, all of the Casinos that you have PERSONALLY seen them ""Properly Check Dice for Balance, before putting them in play!

eagleeye2""

Quote: Zcore13

If you look at the sites he keeps quoting, they are Dicesetter, Harley and Biggie or Fatty or whatever the other guys name is. And the ones agreeing with it all on this thread are eagleeye2, Bohemian and Superrick. I know they are not all the same person, but they might as well be when it comes to their claims and proof.


ZCore13

Quote: eagleeye2

Zcore, I know of (3) posters here (on this thread) that Work Directly for Casino's, bet there are many more?

Yes, you guessed it, all three vehimently REJECT the concept of Biased or Unbalanced Dice, Despite Rock Solid Proof that they Exist at times in Casino's.

Quote: Face

What ever you seek, it won't be found here. It makes one wonder what your goal is.

Quote: Face

You either have no reading comprehension, or are being purposely misleading. Zcore is a Table Games Manager, and is so currently. MathExtremist is an independent contractor. I'm a former Gaming Investigator. 1 out of three ain't bad?

Neither do I recall any of us rejecting the concept of bias die. In reality, both ME and I, at the very least, stated flat out that yes, the die are not perfect. I'll say it again, just for s#$%'s and giggles - No die is perfect. Not now, not then, not ever.

For the last time - Despite this lack of perfection, they are close enough to allow the game to perform as intended, that is, to give a random distribution of numbers. If they weren't, we'd have heard about it by now, complete with a huge investigation and court case. Not a bit of your posting has done anying to prove your claim, or to even advance the discussion. You can't even seem to grasp how flawed your video "proof" is, or that you were snookered by people purporting to be "experts" when they hadn't the first clue about scientific processes.

What ever you seek, it won't be found here. It makes one wonder what your goal is.

Quote: DeMango

Here is how you do it. You cut a hole in your shoe. You have a friend toss the dice off the table. Your shoe "pockets" the die, it cannot be found. Then do the testing at home. What were the results??

Quote: eagleeye2

Please tell the thread, all of the Casinos that you have PERSONALLY seen them ""Properly Check Dice for Balance, before putting them in play

Quote: ontariodealer

just so you know, if I knew my casino was using biased dice I would find out the bias and have a friend come in and hop the shit out of the biased numbers.

Quote: eagleeye2

Quote: MathExtremist

How many dice from Las Vegas casinos have you personally tested on a caliper? Have you tested any at all?

But kobyninja's dozen or so Video's (Link I provided previously that you Obviously Did not watch) used New ID'd Casino Dice, New Dice without any Casino ID or SN, & Dice Previously Used in casino's. Dam right, all that he showed were UNBALANCED, DUH!

Quote: eagleeye2

Hery Axlewolf,

Views Just hit 17,499 & counting...


eagfleeye2
Think you should tell Face that you consider his "Views" as BOGUS?

Quote: eagleeye2

Quote: eagleeye2

!

I Personally Observed the following @ the Paris Casino, Las Vegas, NV:

***************************************

""Casino ~ Zero Spin ~ Dice Balance Practices?

Yesterday, I had an opportunity to observe steps to"verify Die Balance" prior to play @ the Paris Casino, Las Vegas, NV

It went like the following:

A) I observed steps for preparing to Open A New Craps Table

B) Operators assemble behind the table, pull plastic guard forward & Inventory Chips

C) At this point, I moved to the center of the Craps Pit, focusing on activity there

D) After some time, I saw a female get a set of Keys & Unlock a small cabinet there. She proceeded to pull out a sleeve of Dice. These dice appered to be packaged in a Clear Plastic Sleeve, which she pulled the end open & dumped the dice on the table top, of the cabinet from which she had pulled the dice out of.

At this time, a Suite moved next to her commenting something to her. As the Suite blocked my view, I proceeded around to the other side of the table, where I had a clear view of the action.

She pulled out a Dice Caliper & set it on the cabinet top. She then proceeded with the dice loading ritual, which required her to pull a lever, opening the Caliper with her Right Hand, then carefully loading the dice into it, with her Left hand, placing one of three major diaginals into the Caliper & releasing the lever, which appeared to be spring loaded, & now was securing the die in the caliper, with an unlnown force applied to the points of one major diagnal.

She took only a cusary look at the die, ~ ZERO SPIN APPLIED TO THE DIE ~ & with absolutely no knowledge of how free that die was to rotate, imediately grapsed the Die & released the lever, removing the Die & rotating it on to the next Major Diagonal, which she put carefully into the Caliper. To her credit, she "evaluated the die Balance" across all three Major Diagonals, but in this manner.

She then procrrded to sign a slip of paper & appeared to identify the dice as approved for that step. She then set the dice side by side & fingered them together, which could detect major dimensional variation, but I saw no effort to measure them ogtherwise. She then again entered what was likely an OK to use & Signed the paper, saving the paper & sending the dice to the table.

WOW, that Casino ~ Zero Spin ~ Dice Balance Practice in NO WAY VERIFIES that those Dice Are Balanced, PERIOD!



Now, this was seen from about 12 Feet Away:

These dice appered to be packaged in a Grey Plastic Sleeve, which she pulled the end open & dumped the dice on the table top, of the cabinet from which she had pulled the dice out of.

Yes, I am QuiteConfident that the Greyish Packaging in the Photo was what the Female @ Paris Casino dumped the dice out of. The large flap made it easy for her to flip the end open, then dump the dice out.

Of Note, all of the three Sets of Dice I originally Purchased, were Packaged in the Traditional Gold Foil Wrapping, that would not allow the Dice to slide out, simpl by snapping the end open.

Unfortunately, Guys, this makes it look like the Paris Casino is using Unbalanced Dice, most of the time.

One footnote Here, When the Locked Cabinet Was Opened, I saw (2) Disitnct groops of dice in that Cabinet. My Estimamte would Place a container about 12 Sleeves By 12 Sleevs, (144 Sleeves Capacity) from which the Grey Plastic Looking Package (from 12 Feet away) was pulled & a smaller container about 4 Sleeves By 4 Sleeves (16 Sleeve Capacity), which also contained dice.

Thus, the Paris Casino Had A Choice Of Dice To Put in Play!


I am alol eyes to see Casino's insert NEW Dice in Play, but so far, the Paris is the onlyh one that I observed to date4.

eagleeye2

eagleeye2

Quote: SanchoPanza

let's see you name any casinos where you have seen fresh dice coming out of the package and not being checked for gameworthiness. I'll take the under on this proposition.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Caesars, Harrah's, Bally's, Trump Plaza, Tropicana, Resorts International, Planet Hollywood, Bally's, Harrah's, Imperial Palace, Mohegan Sun, Foxwoods and Trump Marina (complete with a Stan Richards lesson), among many others. Now let's see you name any casinos where you have seen fresh dice coming out of the package and not being checked for gameworthiness. I'll take the under on this proposition.

Quote: SanchoPanza

The results speak for themselves. I'll get an extra drink at the rail tonight.

Quote: eagleeye2

Hopefully, taken together, we can expose those Casino's that are taking advantage of Us Craps Players.

Quote: eagleeye2

Very Interesting, of the local Las Vegas Casino's which SanchoPanza says ""he has witnessed Proper Checking for Dice Balance On a Dice Balancing Caliper, all but Tropicana are listed on the Craps Advantage Players web site, as Utilizing Unbalanced Dice at times. ( Enter "Biased Dice" into Google) & it's the #1 listing.

Quote: eagleeye2

Now, SanchoPanza & fans, dismiss what's posted on the Craps Advantage Players web site, site, BUT all should read it in itys entgirity.

Quote: eagleeye2

Very Interesting, of the local Las Vegas Casino's which SanchoPanza says ""he has witnessed Proper Checking for Dice Balance On a Dice Balancing Caliper, all but Tropicana are listed on the Craps Advantage Players web site, as Utilizing Unbalanced Dice at times. ( Enter "Biased Dice" into Google) & it's the #1 listing.

Ask yourself, How can they ""Properly Check Dice For Balance, On a Dice Balancing Caliper, yet Employ Unbalanced Dice in actual Craps Play?

Now, SanchoPanza & fans, dismiss what's posted on the Craps Advantage Players web site, site, BUT all should read it in itys entgirity.

Something is NOT RIGHT HERE!

eagleeye2

Quote: Calder

From your second post, April 22:


Seems to me your time would be better spent y if you really are trying to solve the Unbalanced Dice Mystery.

Quote: beachbumbabs

eagleeye2 is banned, nuclear option, for spamming, deliberate misquotes (above and elsewhere), and dupe ID's.

Quote: ontariodealer

you should give me my 14 days back.

Quote: beachbumbabs

eagleeye2 is banned, nuclear option, for spamming, deliberate misquotes (above and elsewhere), and dupe ID's.

Quote: MathExtremist

You still don't get it. The dice in the video you keep referring to were never used in a casino. They may look similar to casino dice but they were never actually used in a regulated casino craps game for money. It simply doesn't matter to regulators or the gambling public whether those specific two dice were biased, any more than it matters that your home roulette wheel has an electromagnet underneath it. (It's okay, I won't tell anyone.)

How many dice from Las Vegas casinos have you personally tested on a caliper? Have you tested any at all?

Quote:

I just showed you how we test them.

Quote: superrick

MathExtremist - We have tested many casino dice from live play and too many of them have come out unbalanced.

Quote: superrick

Quote: MathExtremist

You still don't get it. The dice in the video you keep referring to were never used in a casino. They may look similar to casino dice but they were never actually used in a regulated casino craps game for money. It simply doesn't matter to regulators or the gambling public whether those specific two dice were biased, any more than it matters that your home roulette wheel has an electromagnet underneath it. (It's okay, I won't tell anyone.)

How many dice from Las Vegas casinos have you personally tested on a caliper? Have you tested any at all?

MathExtremist - We have tested many casino dice from live play and too many of them have come out unbalanced. There are a series of videos collected at the following site that show the testing of casino dice:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10b4g8_unbalanced-dice-part-1-follow-up-video-series-my-introduction-what-you-will-learn-part-1_news

We even went to the dice manufacturer when they were next to the gambling store on Main Street. The manager showed us his dice and tried to explain how perfect their dice were, he pulled out a micrometer and tested the dice, when we asked if they balanced them he just looked at us dumb founded and said When we pressed him about balancing them he told us that they didn't even have a balancer.

So we pulled one out and tested his dice. They all were unbalanced, except one die in each stick! At that point he didn't know what to say. We reported their lack of quality control to the Gaming Commission and they soon thereafter moved their factory to Mexico.

I still say if you have a hard time believing that the dice are not balanced, go out a buy a balancer and test some dice for yourself. Don't keep trying to kill the messenger!

Now for some odd reason I don't remember ever seeing ZCore13 offering to get dice to be tested, can you please show where that offer was made.

This is a she said/he said thread, how would we know that to protect the casinos that ZCore13 made sure that they only had balanced dice for us to test? The testing has to be random like we have done with over 100 live casino dice in several states.

As ZCore13 pointed out they do not have craps where he works, but he knows everything about the dice and craps, how can that be. No wonder he says there is no unbalanced dice out there. Unfortunately I do not have any plans to go to Prescott, Arizona at the present time. We do go there every time they have a Corvette show in town, but that won't be until September.

Zcore13 - I would be interested in getting some dice from you to test, so if you can PM me lets see if we can get this done!

I think a lot can be learned if we all just stop saying it couldn't be and put it to the test once again in front of the video camera.

What most do not understand is that even if you did have loaded dice you would not see a 7 on every roll of the dice, that only happens in the movies, where they must be using miss spots. What you do see with unbalanced dice is that it changes the % of the outcomes and probabilities.

Dealers have even made comments that there is something wrong with what they are experiencing on the craps tables where they work. The Dealers are seeing way too many crap numbers and the 7's coming one way. How can ZCore13 testify to this if he does not work the craps tables.

Now is this due to cheap dice that they are getting pushed through as fast as they can to make a profit, who knows. The funny thing on this thread is there are posters that say the dice can't be perfect as they may be off a little, but when you say they are unbalanced, the same posters say no way!

Quote: Ahigh

I have never used these to profit, but I have managed to get trespassed by using this spreadsheet.

Quote: AxelWolf

Do you believe casino's are using biased dice that favor 7ns or any numbers?

Quote: MathExtremist

Focus on what matters, which is the fairness of the game. Craps isn't played by holding a single die by opposite corners and spinning it. It's played by throwing two dice down a long table with randomizing rubber bumps at each end. If the results are fair on the table then the caliper test is irrelevant.

Quote: MathExtremist

Think about this for a moment. How would it be possible to bias dice toward 7s?

You can't bias a pair of dice, you can only bias individual dice. And they come in sticks of 5, so either (a) they're all biased in the same way or (b) they're biased differently. If they're all biased in the same way, you'll end up with more pair results and fewer 7s. If they're not biased in the same way, you'd need to write out the combinations and weights, just like Ahigh's spreadsheet does, but then you'd only get more 7s if you picked the right two dice from the five where the bias happened to be more toward two numbers that add to 7. Otherwise you wouldn't get more 7s, you'd get more of whatever the sum of the biased faces were.

Quote: Ahigh

Given enough samples, and a suspicious enough stick of dice, you could do 10,000 samples for each of the five dice in the stick and see what the effect is for the observed distributions of each of the five dice in the stick.

Quote: SanchoPanza

At best, an awful lot of work for little gain.

Quote: Ahigh

And no way to see a payoff. But if you were on the other side (the dice manufacturer) you could potentially benefit from your dice being more popular by doing this sort of thing.

Quote: Bohemian

SanchoPanza, your most sensible post ever!



Ahigh, brilliant work as always! Ahigh has demonstrated why if you are able to recognize unbalanced dice in play, then you should walk to another table or across the street. The Casino has the upper hand magnified over normal stated theoretical odds and for you to recalculate at the table based upon just the 2 dice the one tosser has picked out is near impossible. Realise you only have a 5% chance of picking out the same dice as the previous tosser.

Quote: AxelWolf

I get the fact that some dice are biased, it almost has to be a fact. Do you think the casino and dice manufacturers are doing this intentionally?

Quote: AxelWolf

If you're able to recognize unbalanced dice in play, then it has to be obvious, if its that obvious then it's highly exploitable

Also a smart group could figure a way to identify what 2 dice to pick.

Quote:

There are 3 classes of people:
- Those who see;
- Those who see when they are shown;
- Those who do not see.

Quote: Bohemian

. But you know what, it really doesn't matter if the unbalanced dice are put into the game on purpose or not, fact remains that the more unbalanced dice are more prevalent on Fight Nights and other "High Roller" promotional events so you make your own conclusion.

Quote: Bohemian

fact remains that the more unbalanced dice are more prevalent on Fight Nights and other "High Roller" promotional events so you make your own conclusion.

Quote: MathExtremist

On what basis do you make this assertion of "fact"?

Quote: Bohemian

fact remains that the more unbalanced dice are more prevalent on Fight Nights and other "High Roller" promotional events so you make your own conclusion.

Quote: AxelWolf

How do you know this? How could you possibly have enough data to know that? Again, If the bias is that notable, by only tracking it during major events, then it has to be a significant bias, therefor exploitable.

If the bias is so small that it isn't enough to overcame the HA, then you need a lot more data to prove it. Even if everyone reported enough data, the mistakes made will make the data useless.

If the dice are bias just a little and you're a DI, you should be able to magnify your results significantly.

Quote: Bohemian

AxelWolf, the Biased Dice Research team have thousands of pieces of live casino evidence and they have shown me what the casinos do not want to be revealed as discovery in court.

Quote: Bohemian

Poor Zcore13, trapped in the land of Arizona, no dice and denial. But it's ok, we understand that you are just trying to defend the casino industry you work for so that they are not portrayed as the parking lot carnival they are for using crooked games. If it is not true, why aren't the dice factories and the Big Casinos taking the Biased Dice Research teams to court to prove their dice are balanced.

Quote: Bohemian

AxelWolf, the Biased Dice Research team have thousands of pieces of live casino evidence and they have shown me what the casinos do not want to be revealed as discovery in court.

Quote: Bohemian

Furthermore, the argument that not enough data is available is weak. Utilizing "Pearson's chi-square" hypothesis testing procedure you can recognize a bias after just 30 rolls. And this same bias can be verified after 100 rolls, 300 rolls and 500 rolls. What are the odds of that same bias occurring at each of those intervals!