CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA

CONCLUSIONs ~ RELATING TO CRAPS DICE ANALYSIS ~ DATA TABLES BELOW
1) Dice Sets in #'s 24902 (Red) & 37469 (Blue) were stated to come from different suppliers & had significantly different prices, yet,
almost certainly came from the same manufacturer.

2) Dice Set # 3 (Yellow) were stated to come from a Las Vegas manufacturer, yet shipped to me from Zip 75006 (Carrollton TX).

3) Dimensional & weight tolerance on these same sleeve Dice, (each Die #'d with a marker before measurements) were Extremely Small,
with perfectly SQUARE Sides, verifying high manufacturing quality for all dice, a good thing.

4) Lowest weight Die from each Group was Placed on a Balancer & Verified to Yield Random Faces on Spin Testing @ the loosest Caliper
setting. All 5 Red Dice were Spin Tested & Verified to be Balanced, as such, I saw no need to spin other Blue or Yellow Dice. Weight
& dimnensional measurements shown above, proved that all Dice were manufactured under good manufacturing practices. I will shoot
Pairs of of all Dice Sets, on my practice table to see if any obvious differences occur, but this may take a month to conduct.

5) A Balancing Caliper requires skill to operate & must be utilized with Die running only on it's very extreme corners, thus minimizing
interference from the Tetrahedral Edge Surfaces of the Die. Tetrahedral Edge Surface interference from the Die in the caliper, will
result in failure to VERIFY DIE Unbalance; unless it is set to the very minimum that will retain the Die in the caliper. When set
to these minimums, this procedure provides a highly accurate measure of Die Balance. Note that WD-40 was applied to the Balancer /
Die running surface in these tests, via a very small brush, to minimize friction of Die to Caliper surfaces.

6) After verifying Balance, the #5 Die from 24902 (lowest average weight) was counter weighted to establish the weight needed to verify
Unbalance in the Die. This was accomplished by adding Super Glue to the #6 Face of the Die. Some 5 drops added failed to verify
unbalance in this test. Adding another 5 Drops of Super Glue (& allowing it to dry), however resulted in Verification of unbalance,
wherein a series of spin testing trials, resulted in some 4 of 6 Spin tests Documenting the #6 Face to Stop at OR NEAR the Bottom of
the Balancer. In this test, the weight added to the #6 Die, Required to Verified Unbalance was only 0.1738 Grams as Applied directly
to the #6 Face of the Die.. This is only 2.055% of the weight of the Die evaluated.

7) Of Note & Concern is the Maximum Weight Delta for Die #4 (From the as handled, etc. to the Wiped Clean Condition) was 0.17675
Grams, just over that weight it took to verify Unbalance in a Die! Now, if that weight was uniformly distributed, over the Faces of the
Die, no concern. However, if that weight was concentrated on a single Die Face, it alone could result in that Die Being Unbalanced.

8) Wow, there may be validity, not superstition, behind some shooters pitching the Dice into the wall & rubbing them around there, or
scrubbing them on the felt, thereby cleaning them back to their manufactured state & minimizing potential Unbalance from accumulated
oil & perspiration therein, before they shoot! Yes, this habit would appear to enhance Balance of the Dice, before shooting them!

9) Some potential regulations call for PiP's to be Flat to the surface. This was essentially true, however, a Micrometer Verifies a Step for
each PiP, of about 0.0002 to 0.0003 Inches. This likely results from the PiP's being harder than the Acetate Plastic comprising the
Die Body, leaving them slightly higher after grinding & polishing operations. On all Die, herein, the PiP's were very thin (Avg. 0.030 IN) &
not likely to produce unbalance unless a very significant difference in PiP Density Vs the Base Acetate Material existed, This could
be possible, if PiP material for say 5's & 6's was Doped with lead, etc. This, however, would require specific hand loading of those PiP's
and would require a conscious effort by the manufacturer of those Dice. A Dice Caliper would point this BIAS out very quickly, however.

10) In the second table above, PiP's were found to be only 0.030 inches thick. This would be good manufacturing processing, as the PiP
Epoxy Material is estimated to cost some 20 times that of the base Acetate material & keeping it thin reduces cost per Die. PiP
thickness was visually measured by placing a wire gauge over slivered sections of Blue Die # 5, exposing PiP #, in each of the 6 Faces.

11) Loading dice to favor 1's & 2's, resulting in a disproportional # of 6~1 & 5~2 Seven Outs, we need only to weight the 5 & 6 faces. With
the very thin PiP's on all Dice observed herein, this seems unlikely. Of Note, however, would be to make the PiP's Much Deeper, thus
enhancing Unbalance in favor of Dice Faces having more PiPs (assuming PiP Material is denser than the Acetate). One can see the
relative thickness of PiP's, by holding a Die to the light & looking through it; the #1 provides a Clear shot at viewing it's thickness in
this manner. I'd be very suspicious of Intentional Unbalance, with any Die having PiP's of significant depth, as depth would enhance
unbalance with PiP density Greater than or Less than, the base Acetate Material, while increasing the Time & Cost to manufacture.

12) CROOKED Dice could also be created by "TWISTING", or "SHAVING" a side of the Dice. One should be able to see this
by placing two Dice Face to Face & feeling a slight wobble & or holding them tightly together & seeing a Light Gap somewhere
between their faces. Either of these & it's time to AVOID this CASINO FOREVER, as they would be Verified "Crooked As A Snake"!

13) With the perponderance of 6~1 & 5~2 Seven Outs reported on dice threads, I reviewed the last 30 Sevens From my practice table,
with the following results: 8, 6~1's, 10, 5~2's & 12, 4~3's. This could be normal, but definitely does not represent what is happening
in the typical Casino. The same dice were used for all of the above & they were rather nicked up from throwing. All dice data analysis
at the top of the page, are from NEW Unused Dice, purchased to have come from three manufacturers. I will post results from shooting
the Dice measured & weighed above, at a later date.

14) I hope that the Data Analysis above, provokes thought about how Casino's Have Unbalanced Dice Ceated; from some Craps Players
& that they in turn provide their thoughts & Comments thereto. Hopefully, taken together, we can expose those Casino's that are
taking advantage of Us Craps Players.

But if the dice are weighted/favored in any way, wouldn't they be worried someone would figure it out / exploit it?

Romes ~ Yes ABSOLUTELY, however, what I am looking for is a method to VISUALLY DETECT WHEN the Casino has Injected UNBALANCED DICE into the Game.

Ask yourself, how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to verify that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Also Romes, would you not like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed continue to donate to the CASINO?

eagleeye2

Quote: eagleeye2

Romes ~ Yes ABSOLUTELY, however, what I am looking for is a method to VISUALLY DETECT WHEN the Casino has Injected UNBALANCED DICE into the Game.

Which casino or casinos, if any, are those dice from?

All this work on how the casinos have biased dice for nothing. Nothing meaning nothing will ever be done.

How is it you guys that keep screaming about this can't see there's a huge opportunity sitting here?

Amazing.

been a dice dealer for 41 years and I cannot believe that anybody would waste their time with this nonsense.

Hello Harley. Things seem to have progressed.

Ok, the dice aren't perfect.

How randomly do they roll? (Before they were modified with superglue)

Dalex64,

No, they aren't!

But this post & responses to it, are all in an effort to get them to be FAIR!

Re-read the post, none of the 3 sets of dice have yet been rolled, but will be.

As to adding Super GLUE, THIS WAS onlly ON one die TO ESTABLISH HOW MUCH WEIGHT HAD TO BE ADDED TO A DIE FACE TO VRERIFY UNBALANCE ON A DICE BALANCER.

nO, THE SUPER GLUED DICE FACE WOULD NOGT ROLL VERY WELL!

eagleeye2

odiousgambigt,

Hell NO, I am NOT Harley!

BBut am a CRAPS Player with an interest in unraveling the DICE UNBALANCE Mystery.

Please Post if you can help!

eagleeye2

ontariodea,

Thanks for your reply, in interest of my original Post, please reply tgo the following:


how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to verify that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would you not like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed continue to donate to the CASINO?

eagleeye2

SanchoPanza,

None of the Dice are DIRFECtLY FROM A CASINO>

All Dice were Purchased Over the Internet & purported to be fromm three suppliers.

All DICER AB OVE ae NEW< CLEAR< HIGHLY POLISHED & called CASINO QUALITY.

Reading the Post, None of these Dice appear Unbalancedd!

Quesion, HOW DO CASNIO'S manage to get unbalanced dice & how do you detect them; that i what MY POST is ABOUT!???

eagleeye2

WOW, AxelWolf, there is a Foreat & There are TREES!

There is a DO & DON'T Side to Bet On, on a CRAPS Tabel!

You seem to have mised the POINT, i.e. ONE Cannot Take ADVANTAGE of any OPPORTUNITy, unless they UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE!

Purpose of these postings, is to UNRAVEL THE MYSTERY of UNBALANCED DICE & How CASINO's Employ them.

Think about thE ABOVE WITH AN open mind!

EAGLEEYE2

Ok, ok. enough with all the random caps please! They make it very hard to read whatever message it is you're trying to get across.

ajemeister,

Thanks for the interest.

The concept of UNBALANCED DICE CAME UP SEVERAL YEAS AGO & CONTINUES TO GROW.GLE & TYPE IN "biased dice" TO GET A FEEL FOR THINGS.

Go to GOOGLE & type in " BIASED DICE " & you will see the interest.

Check out this LINK http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x10b5qr_unbalanced-dice-part-1-bad-dice-in-las-vegas-casinos-must-see_news , for PROOF of Unbalance in CASINO DICE.

Unraveling the degree of Unbalance & It's Effect on Dice Throws remains UNESTABLISHED.

eagleeye2

For a Summary of those that are"Suspicious of Altered Dice" ~ click on the Link Below!

http://www.dicesetter.com/Casino%20Dice%20Surveys/Bias%20Dice.htm

eagleeye2

So, if after a hot pass, if the casino changes the dice, shouldn't you just bet the don't pass?

Or are they pulling a double-fakeout and are giving the shooter hot dice again?

Ok, so here's my take on this whole "unbalanced" thing. Nothing in this world is exactly uniform and over time may show a bias after hundreds of thousands of spins/rolls/shuffles/etc. For something to affect the balance of dice or a roulette wheel or whatever in the short term, it must show significant weight/balance change that other shooters will notice as well, since the dice will "feel" different (heavier, rough on one side,etc). For something as undetectable to the average player, but still slightly "biased" or "unbalanced", one would have to watch and record these rolls over thousands if not hundreds of thousands/millions of rolls (tracking each individual dice) to specifically find which dice is then biased towards what number, which is then highly improbable as maintaining individual identities of these dice becomes near impossible after just a few short sessions of rolls around the table. Then, once you may be forming an opinion as to how biased these dice are, the pit comes in and changes the dice as they do every day/few hours (nullifying all your results).

tl;dr

could "unbalanced" or weighted/shaved dice show bias towards certain numbers? possibly, yes.

would you be able to recognize the pattern in enough time to play on their slim bias? No. Not unless they've been altered significantly enough (but then they have an even shorter lifespan and will be switched out.

also, IMO belief in the theory of dice favoriting certain numbers will also heavily increase your Risk of Ruin, should you choose to bet more heavily on these numbers

The post you are replying to: Dalex64

So, if after a hot pass, if the casino changes the dice, shouldn't you just bet the don't pass?

Or are they pulling a double-fakeout and are giving the shooter hot dice again?

*********************************************************************************************

Casino's provide the shooter with 5 DICE to choose from. Which OF THE 5 would you pick, in the hypothetical example above.

My question is ~ WHY DOES THE CASINO FREQUENTLY CHANGE OUT THE DICE AFTER A HOT ROLL?

RECALL ~

how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would you not like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

ajemeiste

Ok, so here's my take on this whole "unbalanced" thing. Nothing in this world is exactly uniform and over time may show a bias after hundreds of thousands of spins/rolls/shuffles/etc. For something to affect the balance of dice or a roulette wheel or whatever in the short term, it must show significant weight/balance change that other shooters will notice as well, since the dice will "feel" different (heavier, rough on one side,etc). For something as undetectable to the average player, but still slightly "biased" or "unbalanced", one would have to watch and record these rolls over thousands if not hundreds of thousands/millions of rolls (tracking each individual dice) to specifically find which dice is then biased towards what number, which is then highly improbable as maintaining individual identities of these dice becomes near impossible after just a few short sessions of rolls around the table. Then, once you may be forming an opinion as to how biased these dice are, the pit comes in and changes the dice as they do every day/few hours (nullifying all your results).

tl;dr

could "unbalanced" or weighted/shaved dice show bias towards certain numbers? possibly, yes.

would you be able to recognize the pattern in enough time to play on their slim bias? No. Not unless they've been altered significantly enough (but then they have an even shorter lifespan and will be switched out.

*********************************************************************************************************************************

ajemeiste,

That is the kind if feedback I am looking for here.

And yes, unfortunately, there man not be a way to Detect Biased Dice in time to take advantage of them, but then again, there may be a way & that's what I am looking for.

In the Universe & Life, there is a reason for things ~ ASK: ASK: ASK:

how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anyone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

Quote: eagleeye2

None of the Dice are DIRFECtLY FROM A CASINO>All Dice were Purchased Over the Internet & purported to be fromm three suppliers. All DICER AB OVE ae NEW< CLEAR< HIGHLY POLISHED & called CASINO QUALITY. Reading the Post, None of these Dice appear Unbalancedd! Quesion, HOW DO CASNIO'S manage to get unbalanced dice & how do you detect them; that i what MY POST is ABOUT!???

Thanks for the response. In other words, none of the dice are clearly those used in any known casino. I ask which casinos supposedly use "unbalanced" dice on their tables because I am one of the truly confirmed don't bettors on WOV and am always searching for an advantage.
Another site has been showing recordings of strange dice behavior in calipers. Those dice have casino logos and serial numbers, raising questions about how and why the casinos distributed unpunched dice, among other issues.

SancoPanza


The DICE I purchased were individually searilized, etc., but all appeared very consistant & balanced.

The link below shows CASINO's in Las Vegasw that they think EMPLOY BIASED DICE, read all of it!

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html

I want to gather all the data I can on the subjecct, with Dimensional, Weight, & Balance data provided in my Original Post Data Analysis, for reverence.

Now, just how & where do Casino's Obtain " BIASED DICE " remains a Mystery that we all need to resolve.

eagleeye2

Quote: eagleeye2

WOW, AxelWolf, there is a Foreat & There are TREES!

There is a DO & DON'T Side to Bet On, on a CRAPS Tabel!

You seem to have mised the POINT, i.e. ONE Cannot Take ADVANTAGE of any OPPORTUNITy, unless they UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE!

Purpose of these postings, is to UNRAVEL THE MYSTERY of UNBALANCED DICE & How CASINO's Employ them.

Think about thE ABOVE WITH AN open mind!

EAGLEEYE2

I though the moral of the story was to bring superglue too the casino. (I prefer Krazy glue)

How much does a drop of crazy glue weigh?

Dice may be changed in and out to make cheating harder?

Management are humans and can be just as superstitious as gamblers.

I believe there's unbalanced dice in the casino, but I don't think there's a casino conspiracy.

Quote: AxelWolf

I though the moral of the story was to bring superglue too the casino. (I prefer Krazy glue)

How much does a drop of crazy glue weigh?

Dice may be changed in and out to make cheating harder?

Management are humans and can be just as superstitious as gamblers.

I believe there's unbalanced dice in the casino, but I don't think there's a casino conspiracy.

********************************************************************************

Hi Axlewolf,

I am trying to seperate the Fly Shit From the Pepper, not easy, or it would have been done before!

As to Super Glue ~ I added it to the #6 Face of one dice to establish How much weight on a face was required to Verify Unbalance in a Die that was Spin Tested & Verified as " BALANCED " previously.

It's likely that every drop of Super Glue is of a different SIZE & WEIGHT, but in my evaluation, some 10 Drops or 0.1738 Grams of Dried Super Glu resun UNALANCED.


Bottom Line, we need to resolve the following;

how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anyone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

eagleeye2

Quote: eagleeye2

********************************************************************************

Hi Axlewolf,

I am trying to seperate the Fly Shit From the Pepper, not easy, or it would have been done before!

As to Super Glue ~ I added it to the #6 Face of one dice to establish How much weight on a face was required to Verify Unbalance in a Die that was Spin Tested & Verified as " BALANCED " previously.

It's likely that every drop of Super Glue is of a different SIZE & WEIGHT, but in my evaluation, some 10 Drops or 0.1738 Grams of Dried Super Glu resun UNALANCED.


Bottom Line, we need to resolve the following;

how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anyone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

eagleeye2

Sounds like you're putting a lot of work and thought into this. I hope it turns into something profitable.

Quote: egleeye2

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anyone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

case 1:

if they are superstitious, they only *think* there is such a thing as hot dice or cold dice, when in fact there is no such thing.

case 2:

in this case, they are removing hot dice that players have somehow turned into hot dice, or the normal wear and tear on the dice makes dice go hot, so they are pulling them out of service and replacing them with fair dice. again, if they are replacing them with cold dice, the players should bet don't pass after a dice change.

case 3:

if they aren't substituting cold dice for hot dice, in which case you would bet on the don't pass, exactly what do these unbalanced dice that the casino is providing to you do? how exactly do they benefit the casino?


Very specifically, how do these unbalanced dice benefit the casino?

Quote: AxelWolf

Sounds like you're putting a lot of work and thought into this. I hope it turns into something profitable.

I hope so also.

So far it's been all work, but I have satisfied myself with the Purchase & Measurement of the 3 Sets of DICE, that it takes Underhanded Efforts to acieve UNBALANCED DICE.

Someone out there must have SUSPECION of a technique to establish the use of unbalanced dice.

All we need, is to establish just How to tell that the DICE IN PLAY; ARE OF THE UNBALANCED VARUETY, then act accordingly.

eagleeye2

This thread belongs in the Craps section so people who don't want to listen to the dice enthusiasts theories can ignore it safely.

Quote: eagleeye2

I hope so also.

So far it's been all work, but I have satisfied myself with the Purchase & Measurement of the 3 Sets of DICE, that it takes Underhanded Efforts to acieve UNBALANCED DICE.

Someone out there must have SUSPECION of a technique to establish the use of unbalanced dice.

All we need, is to establish just How to tell that the DICE IN PLAY; ARE OF THE UNBALANCED VARUETY, then act accordingly.

eagleeye2

I'm assuming you suspect the "UNBALANCED" make more 7's come up. Because more people bet the light side.

Simply watch what dice the casino tend to take out and note what happened beforehand. If they keep consistently taking out the same dice during or after a "hot roll". it would be obvious what's going on.

keep Returning to the casino until you see the same dice 2 in action and bet huge amounts accordingly.

Quote: eagleeye2

Bottom Line, we need to resolve the following;

how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?

Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:

1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious


2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!

3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!

Anyone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed Error! Hyperlink reference not valid. to donate to the CASINO?

eagleeye2

Please stop copy/pasting this. You're making me think you're a bot, and it makes my ban hammer itch.

Fortunately for you, I've done a bit of thought experimentation into this, so maybe can put it all to rest with one fell swoop (look at me, always the optimist =p)

1) Yes, casino personnel are superstitious. Beyond that, the fact that loaded or biased die can theoretically exist is reason enough. By swapping the die, they lose, what? Maybe tens of dollars in the cost of the dice plus lost wagers in stopping the game? Personnel are taught to be proactive, lest they become the latest story on the local news, and $10 ain't nothing to sweat. So yes, they'll just do it.

2) See #1

3) Don't even waste your time. It is a given that every single die is unbalanced to some degree. You're measuring to the thousands of an inch or hundredths of a gram... these are mass produced cubes of acrylic. Of course they're not going to be perfect. But a conspiracy?

You must realize that "the casino" is just people. It is not an entity, nor a bank of mutually aligned persons. Sure, there's likely a company man or two in there. There's also a burn out, there's also a scofflaw, there's also someone who management pissed off, etc. The same goes for the dice manufacturer. In order for a conspiracy to work, you'd need a minimum number of people in on it, and that number is certainly over three. Just think of all the players you'd need. Someone on the table, who is different than the one who retrieves the new (loaded) stick, who is different than the one who calls for the new stick, who is different than the one who actually loads the stick... in all the casinos and all the games and all the instances of this theoretical loading, not one of them has become disgruntled and blew a whistle? Not one has blackmailed management for something which got out? You realize this thought alone is impossible, right? It just cannot happen.

Then there's the task of biasing for the casino. Craps isn't a "you v house" game. It's you v pay table. Since you can bet on any outcome, lowering the probability of one outcome must necessarily raise others. Some tables contain all Pass players, some are heavy on Donts. Some are filled with Field, some are filled with Hops. You'd need dice loaded to account for all these different scenarios, otherwise your load could play into the player's hands. So not only would you need the vast and impossible conspiracy above, but it would have to be deep indeed. Not just one special stick, but many special sticks to account for all scenarios. Then you figure that dice are changed minimum 7 times a week, and man, but does this conspiracy reach ridiculous proportions.

And this is a criminal act. This isn't "get fired and loses the sh!tty job you hate". This is "get fired, escorted out in handcuffs, go to jail". And for what? All the money you scheme and scam goes to some billion dollar corporation, and you get... what? As a Pit Manager, as a Floor Supe, as a Box Dealer,... where is your payday? What's in it for you, what are you risking your freedom for?

A conspiracy theory is, at best, asinine. Your only hope as a player is...

4) Die are biased as a result of manufacturing; you just need to figure it out.

And that, good sir, is impossible. In order to find a bias, you need to math out a large number of rolls. Perhaps a mathlete can help me out, but in order for results to be statistically relevant, the outcomes (I assume) must number in the thousands. I happened to collect approximately 1,200 rolls for a member once, and it took me about 14 hours.

Now, let's say you get a dream scenario where no dice are lost, and none are chipped or damaged. One stick is going to remain on a table for a max of 24hrs. If we extrapolate my roll count, 24hrs is gonna equal about 2,000 rolls. Is 2,000 rolls even enough to become statistically significant? I think we're entering a territory where a conclusion begins to have some merit, so let's say yes. The problem is that within those 2,000 rolls, there's no way to track which 2 of the 5 dice are being used. So only if all 5 dice contain exactly the same defects and bias will you get a result that begins to be significant. Not "significant", but "begins to be". And unless all 5 dice are identical down to the thousands of an inch / gram, those 2,000 rolls drop considerably into about 400 rolls per dice, which not only isn't significant, but is completely untrackable.

So IF manufacturers defects are enough to influence the outcome (which has never been proven), AND you can somehow guarantee to use ONLY the same two dice all day long, AND you play for 16 hours straight while recording each and every roll with no errors, AND can do the math to find significance in those 1,500 results during a live game, AND can continue playing for another 8 hours after that,... only then will you find and capitalize on the advantage you seek.

Good luck?

Quote: Face

It may not be a conspiracy.

Far fetched I know...

I can see how this could happen "accidentally"

Can we agree that most people bet similar bets overall?


Toss out dice that seem to lose for the house. Keep dice that win for the house. It would make sense that the biased dice would stay in play more often.

FACE,

BIASED? ~ Other than accepting that CASINO Personnel are superstitious, your post exposes the Most Closed Minded response to this thread to date!

Post your response to this LINK? http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html

It's undeniable that they have a very knowledgeable group of personnel on their team of experts.

Like I stated, I am trying to Pick the Fly Shit Out of the Pepper, which isn't easy!

eagleeye2

I looked at the blog post and see a lot of innuendo but no numbers to back up the hypothesis. Did this knowledgeable group of personnel do any statistical analysis of the rolls they saw on the tables? Could you bring that data to this board so the math people here could analyze the data? Not sure why you would call Face's post close minded. He provided a counterpoint is all and did it quite well.

I would suggest cleaning up your table a bit. You clearly put a lot of time into it but I still don't know what a lot of columns mean and you don't need the blank rows and columns.

I have 26 dice from the Venetian and they all look perfectly the same size to my naked eye. I put 25 of them in a 5x5 square and every row and column looked the same length.

Thanx for that WIZ. Zocchi used to (still does if at trade shows) stack his 20-25 high for the same type of comparison.
Theres a good bit of info there.

Quote: AxelWolf

It may not be a conspiracy.

Far fetched I know...

I can see how this could happen "accidentally"

Can we agree that most people bet similar bets overall?


Toss out dice that seem to lose for the house. Keep dice that win for the house. It would make sense that the biased dice would stay in play more often.

I get what you're saying. Most play Pass and Come. If they win all the time, they might be biased towards it. So toss them. And if you luck out and one happens to be biased toward the Don't, let em fly forever. I don't deny this possibility.

I completely deny a conspiracy, and I completely deny an ability to confirm it at the tables. I also think that should this be something that could possibly be taken advantage of, it would have been long ago, and it we wouldn't be debating the "if", but would rather have a whole school of knowledge informing on the "how".

As for you, eagleeye2, my mind is closed because I see nothing worthy of opening it. I open it occasionally, when someone offers something I haven't yet tackled, like when Ahigh came here with his project. I've drawn my conclusions, which I feel are well founded. Your claims bring nothing new to the table.

I'm not posting elsewhere for the same reason I usually don't post period. I have no interest. I don't gamble and no longer work in the industry. My posting today was mostly as a forum service, as we do get new people from time to time who might think there was something here. My post was to save them the time and effort from pursuing it.

I won't rehash all the reasons I believe it's folly, or bring up new ones like "if you know it's biased and can figure it out, why not crush the casino". So how about a really easy one...

Identify bias. Give it a value. Standardize it. All who claim bias all have the tools at your disposal. You have micrometers and calipers and skill to use them which you claim exceed that of the casino. So use that skill to find die that are truly balanced. From that pool of true die, try to bias them. Do whatever you want. Add lead, shave corners, shorten entire sides. Find and standardize how much a die need be changed before it becomes biased to a reasonable extent. Does having one side be .007 of an inch shorter matter when the plastic hits the felt? Could you knock .07 off and not see a difference? Do you know? Because I've heard a lot about biased die, and read a lot from the big players in this camp, and never once have I seen a value given to identify where bias begins to have an effect. Could be a die just under the max of .775 on one side could be well under the minimum at .725 on the other side, and that might not make a bit of difference. Should it make a difference? Probably. How much of a difference? No one knows. It might not even be big enough to measure within the life of a die.

Seems like that would be the first place to start before all others.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm assuming you suspect the "UNBALANCED" make more 7's come up. Because more people bet the light side.

Simply watch what dice the casino tend to take out and note what happened beforehand. If they keep consistently taking out the same dice during or after a "hot roll". it would be obvious what's going on.

keep Returning to the casino until you see the same dice 2 in action and bet huge amounts accordingly.

AxleWolf ~ EXACTLY, M~O~R~E 7's will; enhance CASINO PROFITS!

Here's how Unbalanced Dice can accomplish that!

1) Somehow weight the # 5 & 6 Faces, which produce an abnormal # of 1's & 2's.

2) Yes, 2's & 3's loose on the Come Out for Pass Line Betters ~ Yet Those Don't Betters WIN, but, there are fewer don't betters ~ CASINO Wins Again

3) Increased frequency of Random 2's & 3's count throws, do not Pay Any Place nor Don't Betters ~ CASINO Wins Again

4) As rolls progress, those 1's & 2.s add to random 5's & 6's to produce 7's, at a frequency greatere than that which would occur with totally balanced dice
~ CASINO Wins Again

5) Bottom Line ~ Casino's will employ Unbalanced Dice to ENHANCE THEIR PROFIT LEVELS.

6) I believe that most of the time that passes, CASINO's have Balanced Dice in Play; But, All here have seen them REPLACE HOT Dice; with NEW DICE, after which, the DICE FAVOR the CASINO. This happens all to frequently to be a matter of CHANCE!

CONSIDER THIS ~ Never too old to learn, several weeks ago, I was playing & chatting with the player to my left, table was neutral, then a guy on the end got the dice, he was Setting Them, but had a rather wild throw. Suddenly he Had made two Points & I Stepped up my betting on him, as did the Player to my left.
Luck, etc. & he held the dice for some time, making all Do Betters MONEY!

Suddenklly, the guy to my left taps me & says DAM, they are going to CHANGE OUT the dice! I said to him what makes you think that & he replied:

1) When you are on a HOT ROLL, don't watch the dice, watch the PIT BOSS!

2) I have been watching him closely & he has prepared a new sleeve of DICE!

3) Another several Rolls & Bingo 7~OUT.

4) I NOW watched the PIT BOSS Slip those NEW DICE IN & GET THEM IN PLAY, without all but that guy nest to me & ME catching the SWITCH!

5) Yes, after 35 Years of Shooting DICE, I Learned what to Watch & When to Watch, thanks to that unknown Shooter!

6) The next player 7'd out shortly, with all but the guy next to me & me having loaded up on a "HOT Table" Cooled by the CASINO!


Stick to this FORUM, We All Have Lots to Learn...

eagleeye2

Quote: Wizard

I would suggest cleaning up your table a bit. You clearly put a lot of time into it but I still don't know what a lot of columns mean and you don't need the blank rows and columns.

I have 26 dice from the Venetian and they all look perfectly the same size to my naked eye. I put 25 of them in a 5x5 square and every row and column looked the same length.

Thanks WIZARD,

I put the original data into EXCEL, where it can be analyzed easily. Your site REFUISES to take EXCEL files in Table Format & thanks only to a poster who's table formatter, gave us the tables we have, I had given up on it!

If anyone cannot decipher the table as it is, Post what you need & I will explain it.

If you followed my conclusions, None of the 15 Dice I purchased were Dimensionally nor Weight wise, nor Balance Wise defective!

All here should be injterested in RESOLVING thinngs contained in the LINK Below!

http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.html

eagleeye2

Quote: Face

I get what you're saying. Most play Pass and Come. If they win all the time, they might be biased towards it. So toss them. And if you luck out and one happens to be biased toward the Don't, let em fly forever. I don't deny this possibility.

I completely deny a conspiracy, and I completely deny an ability to confirm it at the tables. I also think that should this be something that could possibly be taken advantage of, it would have been long ago, and it we wouldn't be debating the "if", but would rather have a whole school of knowledge informing on the "how".

As for you, eagleeye2, my mind is closed because I see nothing worthy of opening it. I open it occasionally, when someone offers something I haven't yet tackled, like when Ahigh came here with his project. I've drawn my conclusions, which I feel are well founded. Your claims bring nothing new to the table.

I'm not posting elsewhere for the same reason I usually don't post period. I have no interest. I don't gamble and no longer work in the industry. My posting today was mostly as a forum service, as we do get new people from time to time who might think there was something here. My post was to save them the time and effort from pursuing it.

I won't rehash all the reasons I believe it's folly, or bring up new ones like "if you know it's biased and can figure it out, why not crush the casino". So how about a really easy one...

Identify bias. Give it a value. Standardize it. All who claim bias all have the tools at your disposal. You have micrometers and calipers and skill to use them which you claim exceed that of the casino. So use that skill to find die that are truly balanced. From that pool of true die, try to bias them. Do whatever you want. Add lead, shave corners, shorten entire sides. Find and standardize how much a die need be changed before it becomes biased to a reasonable extent. Does having one side be .007 of an inch shorter matter when the plastic hits the felt? Could you knock .07 off and not see a difference? Do you know? Because I've heard a lot about biased die, and read a lot from the big players in this camp, and never once have I seen a value given to identify where bias begins to have an effect. Could be a die just under the max of .775 on one side could be well under the minimum at .725 on the other side, and that might not make a bit of difference. Should it make a difference? Probably. How much of a difference? No one knows. It might not even be big enough to measure within the life of a die.

Seems like that would be the first place to start before all others.

FACE,

This sould be worth COMMENTING on!

"" Post your response to this LINK? http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/biased-dice.htlm "

eagleeye2



I requested your opinion...

eagleeye2

eagleeye2, I play with Harley and I know you are not Harley.

I agree with your unbalanced dice findings. The reason why most dealers do not know there are unbalanced dice in play is because it is above their pay scale.

Many recreational craps players or weekend players do not understand either, only craps players that play often enough to see both fair dice and unbalanced dice in play.

Below is a chart from page 15 of the book "How to Control Fair Dice" showing how dice can be unbalanced in 26 different combinations -- how do we know which imbalance we are playing with today compared to tomorrow.


If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.

Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!

The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.

Quote: Wizard

I have 26 dice from the Venetian and they all look perfectly the same size to my naked eye. I put 25 of them in a 5x5 square and every row and column looked the same length.

Wizard, have you tried putting your dice in a dice balancing caliper that can be purchased online or at the Gambler's store on Main Street like this one in the video:

Understanding The Dice Balancing Caliper

this is all craziness....all the casino has to do is open the doors and let the house edged work its magic over time. Much like the players, some pits and floors also have misconceptions about things like hot dice and they are also wrong, it makes no difference if they change them or don't.

Quote: Bohemian

eagleeye2, I play with Harley and I know you are not Harley.

I agree with your unbalanced dice findings. The reason why most dealers do not know there are unbalanced dice in play is because it is above their pay scale.

Many recreational craps players or weekend players do not understand either, only craps players that play often enough to see both fair dice and unbalanced dice in play.

Below is a chart from page 15 of the book "How to Control Fair Dice" showing how dice can be unbalanced in 26 different combinations -- how do we know which imbalance we are playing with today compared to tomorrow.


If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.

Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! ... Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!

The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.

Bohemian,

Very well stated

eagleeye2

Quote: ontariodealer

this is all craziness....all the casino has to do is open the doors and let the house edged work its magic over time. Much like the players, some pits and floors also have misconceptions about things like hot dice and they are also wrong, it makes no difference if they change them or don't.

ontariodealer,

Most Craps Players continue to play, while feeding the Casino's, because they believe in KARMA, which is that Ancient Indian Concept, wherein intent, thought and actions of an individual influence future outcomes for that individual!

Thus you hear Craps Tables Erupt With Cheering, on those HOT Rolls, multiplying that KARMA many fold, with CASINO's fearing the HOT Roll's effect on their bottom line for the DAY.

From your posts, you apparently do not believe in KARMA, or that CASINO's Frequently Change Out the Dice after that HOT ROLL, in their effort to KILL OFF THAT KARMA?

eagleeye2

you are right, I don't believe in any of that b.s. And there is a very strong chance that I have seen more dice hands than anyone else alive.

Quote: Bohemian

]

If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. .

That's silly. The Casino could change the dice every 10 minutes, if they were biased you could easily crush the casino.

Someone show me a casino that keeps changing biased dice in and out. It would be easy to spot a pattern and take advantage of it.

-----------------------------------------------------------

BTW if there's any truth to this then DIIs have no chance.

Them dice are far more balanced than half the players and all the management in the casino.

Even Professor Whatshisname from Stanford found that biased dice gave him a lower edge than he had when he relied on his Graduate Assistants to take down the data correctly.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's silly. The Casino could change the dice every 10 minutes, if they were biased you could easily crush the casino.

Someone show me a casino that keeps changing biased dice in and out. It would be easy to spot a pattern and take advantage of it.

-----------------------------------------------------------

BTW if there's any truth to this then DIIs have no chance.

Your first statement is so far off its funny. 99% of the craps players are clueless when it comes to playing the game, they are not looking for anything out of the ordinary. They couldn't tell you what the last five rolls of the dice were!

Now on your second statement, that is exactly what the on axis DI schools think and why they will not let anybody write about biased dice.

Finally 99% of all craps players, play craps for the fun of it and don't mind losing money. All you have to do is read one of the many reports on how much money the casinos players bring to places like Vegas and the standard answer is about $600.00 to lose!

Yes there are players that love to lose,... its their entertainment for as long as the are at a casino!

Your post is just like the on-axis DI schools write, to keep their students coming back for more! If it wasn't for the fact that some of those schools charge a hook-up fee, better known as (The After Glow Fee), now changed to the after the class session fee, or what ever they are calling it to get their big boys social club coming back for more!