CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
that is wonderful news!Quote: eagleeye2Your post places you in the Casual Craps Player, category!
thanks
i am 25 years young
and earlier in my craps playing days i played an average of 10 hours every day all over the world (in casinos of course)
for 16 months straight -------->
and i did not get pregnant once
many bet against that one
Oh, oo
I have the only craps expert list on the internet so i thought to add a craps dice (balance)
expert list to that, but this time list those experts that say they are one (1).
Stacy, are you a craps dice balance expert?
or
Stacy, do you consider yourself a craps dice balance expert?
Hmmm, maybe 2 different questions
it is still on the drawing board
Mully
""Quote: mustangsallythat is wonderful news!
thanks
i am 25 years young
and earlier in my craps playing days i played an average of 10 hours every day all over the world (in casinos of course)
for 16 months straight -------->
and i did not get pregnant once
many bet against that one
Oh, oo
I have the only craps expert list on the internet so i thought to add a craps dice (balance)
expert list to that, but this time list those experts that say they are one (1).
Stacy, are you a craps dice balance expert?
or
Stacy, do you consider yourself a craps dice balance expert?
Hmmm, maybe 2 different questions
This Got you your Classification...
mustangsally says!
""ok
dice balance, yuk
i say
get rid of dice at all craps tables in the universe
cards work just fine in CA
cards and dice are fun for some too at the same time
roll the dice, turn over the cards
next up""
it is still on the drawing board
Mully
The folks can judge for themselves, YES!
eagleeye2
Of course, it must be a pretty broad definition, since he was able to classify you as such with almost no knowledge of who you are or how you play.
I can think of a few broad categories to place him in, too.
Quote: BohemianIf you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
Anything said by Bohemian (and Harley for that matter) when it comes to craps/DI and Casinos can almost immediately be discarded. They speak without facts or knowledge. They have no inside knowledge or sources of knowledge for how things work in a casino. Just from the above quote from him let me tell you:
There is no such department at any casino that knows exactly which dice combination gives the best profit margin. That is ridiculous, baseless and a total lie.
He says "they are finding more casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads". More ridiculousness. No facts. No proof. Not true.
These people shouldn't even be allowed to post here. If I were to post over and over again that certain casinos are purposely poisoning players they don't like to try and kill them, without any shred of proof, I'm pretty sure I would be banned for saying the same stupid, made up, lies all the time. But these conspiracy DI people never stop. Casinos purposely change out dice to put in unbalanced ones when they are losing. They have lists of casinos that do this. Risk management keeps track of dice. Dealers that deal the game 8 hours a day, 5 days a week wouldn't know because it's over their pay grade but a player that plays knows for sure the dice are not fair.
ZCore13
Quote: Dalex64I think you would need to know his definition of casual craps player before you could decide if he accurately placed you in that category.
Of course, it must be a pretty broad definition, since he was able to classify you as such with almost no knowledge of who you are or how you play.
I can think of a few broad categories to place him in, too.
WOW Dalex64, You would call this OTHERWISE???
mustangsally ~ This Got you your Classification...
mustangsally says!
""ok
dice balance, yuk
i say
get rid of dice at all craps tables in the universe
cards work just fine in CA
cards and dice are fun for some too at the same time
roll the dice, turn over the cards
next up""
The folks can judge for themselves, YES!
eagleeye2
Quote: Zcore13Quote: BohemianIf you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
Anything said by Bohemian (and Harley for that matter) when it comes to craps/DI and Casinos can almost immediately be discarded. They speak without facts or knowledge. They have no inside knowledge or sources of knowledge for how things work in a casino. Just from the above quote from him let me tell you:
There is no such department at any casino that knows exactly which dice combination gives the best profit margin. That is ridiculous, baseless and a total lie.
e says "they are finding more casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads". More ridiculousness. No facts. No proof. Not true.
These people shouldn't even be allowed to post here. If I were to post over and over again that certain casinos are purposely poisoning players they don't like to try and kill them, without any shred of proof, I'm pretty sure I would be banned for saying the same stupid, made up, lies all the time. But these conspiracy DI people never stop. Casinos purposely change out dice to put in unbalanced ones when they are losing. They have lists of casinos that do this. Risk management keeps track of dice. Dealers that deal the game 8 hours a day, 5 days a week wouldn't know because it's over their pay grade but a player that plays knows for sure the dice are not fair.
ZCore13
zcore, you ever get the feeling that we should just stay out of these threads with the total and utter nonsense that is proclaimed
You should try pop-o-matic craps. The dice are beaten battered and bruised(just look at the glass its pitted from the dice hitting it hard constantly. You can even see imperfections in the dice) , They don't change the dice out. You don't have to spend a dime. It keeps track of previous rolled numbers. There's no heat. You can sit with a pen and paper. Sometimes the dice barley make it 2 inches in the air.Quote: eagleeye2
If you don't find anything... you still get Free drinks and to watch hot girls (or guys if you prefer)
I was not talking to you and yes, when I say I know several people that (I) consider the best in the
country... that is my opinion....
I don't need your approval to indicate what I think.....
Dicesetter
Quote: ontariodealerQuote: Zcore13Quote: BohemianIf you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
Anything said by Bohemian (and Harley for that matter) when it comes to craps/DI and Casinos can almost immediately be discarded. They speak without facts or knowledge. They have no inside knowledge or sources of knowledge for how things work in a casino. Just from the above quote from him let me tell you:
There is no such department at any casino that knows exactly which dice combination gives the best profit margin. That is ridiculous, baseless and a total lie.
e says "they are finding more casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads". More ridiculousness. No facts. No proof. Not true.
These people shouldn't even be allowed to post here. If I were to post over and over again that certain casinos are purposely poisoning players they don't like to try and kill them, without any shred of proof, I'm pretty sure I would be banned for saying the same stupid, made up, lies all the time. But these conspiracy DI people never stop. Casinos purposely change out dice to put in unbalanced ones when they are losing. They have lists of casinos that do this. Risk management keeps track of dice. Dealers that deal the game 8 hours a day, 5 days a week wouldn't know because it's over their pay grade but a player that plays knows for sure the dice are not fair.
ZCore13
zcore, you ever get the feeling that we should just stay out of these threads with the total and utter nonsense that is proclaimed
Yes. I try really hard, but if left alone new members could be duped by these people and that's not right. falls under the category of if someone says a lie enough times not only do they start believing it but I think others do also.
ZCore13
Quote: AxelWolfYou should try pop-o-matic craps. The dice are beaten battered and bruised(just look at the glass its pitted from the dice hitting it hard constantly. You can even see imperfections in the dice) , They don't change the dice out. You don't have to spend a dime. It keeps track of previous rolled numbers. There's no heat. You can sit with a pen and paper. Sometimes the dice barley make it 2 inches in the air.
If you don't find anything... you still get Free drinks and to watch hot girls (or guys if you prefer)
To Each His Own...Yuck!
eagleeye2
Quote: MathExtremistPart of the problem is that dice exhibit a macro version of the uncertainty principle. The more you play with them, the more unbalanced they become. 2000 rolls is twice the rolls a pair of dice would get during a whole day of play, assuming the casino only switched dice once per day (5 dice in a stick, not just 2, etc.) Corners and edges of dice don't wear evenly, etc. So I'd be concerned that by the time the dice had been rolled enough to be statistically significant, you'd no longer be measuring the same balance that you started with anyway.
Great point, but it seems this could be swept right into the experiment as described and handled as well. All you would need is to take additional measurements at the end of the 2,000 (or however many) rolls. If we found the imbalance drifted or completely swapped sides, or a size difference reduced or likewise swapped, then surely, it would go towards showing that searching for these types of advantages are complete folly. Or we could find they change hardly at all, and continue on with the experiment as described.
Either way, I get what I want - facts. I don't care if I confirm it, deny it, or leave it somewhere in the land of plausible. It would just be nice to have facts instead of supposition and wishful thinking. Hell, even roulette has tested knowledge regarding biased wheels. Why does craps have none?
I never said it's fun. I'm saying there's a possibility the dice are biased due to all the abuse.Quote: eagleeye2To Each His Own...Yuck!
eagleeye2
I get it. You would rather play a -ev game of craps with fair dice, than make money betting with the bias. To Each His Own...Yuck!
Quote: FaceEither way, I get what I want - facts. I don't care if I confirm it, deny it, or leave it somewhere in the land of plausible. It would just be nice to have facts instead of supposition and wishful thinking. Hell, even roulette has tested knowledge regarding biased wheels. Why does craps have none?
Because a roulette wheel costs over $5,000 and a stick of dice costs about $10 (presumably less in bulk - what does your casino buy dice for?). You don't get to throw away your roulette wheel if it becomes worn, you have to fix it because biased roulette wheels are both detectable and exploitable by players. There are many roulette-bias software packages on the market. There's a reason no similar software exists for craps.
Also, a roulette bias is much more immediately exploitable than a dice bias. If you see some sticky gunk in one pocket of a roulette wheel and reason that the ball will sometimes die if it lands there, that becomes where to bet. No math needed. But if you determine that the 6-face on one die in a stick of five is slightly heavy (and how would you do that at the table) then now what? You'd still need to do some number crunching to decide how that changes things, if at all.
I think the point is that unless there is a persistent bias across all dice in an entire shipment of dice, nobody will ever notice. To my knowledge no casino has ever lost money due to unintentionally biased dice. On the contrary, unintentionally biased roulette wheels have definitely caused losses.
When a new set of dice are inserted into a game, they are square AFAIK and the edges are nice, crisp and sharp.
After a bunch of throws they get rounded.
I wonder where that material goes that used to make up the sharp edge and corner?
It doesn't appear to wear off and end up in the felt. What does it do, vaporize or just get hammered back into the cube after smashing into the felt so many times? I bought some souvenir dice that had been in play, but the faces would not "marry" up to each other and were a bit convex.
They did have extruder marks from being cancelled. Just curious where that material goes?
Quote: beachbumbabsThey vacuum the felt pretty thoroughly except where the bank sits when the table is closed; maybe the accumulation is so minute there's no noticeable build-up of those particles between cleanings?
Maybe? IDK, just wondering. So do you think it flakes or chips off like the dice are made of chalk?
You play at swankier joints than I do, if they vacuum. : )
I commend your approach to things, but there are times you just cant get the facts in the
way you want.
Some things cant be proven to everyone.. some people just ask to much.
It is pure folly to think all dice are exactly the same... why not leave it at that, and say when
they are a little different, they are a little different and most of us wont notice and cant
do anything about it anyway.
dicesetter
I commend your approach to things, but there are times you just cant get the facts in the
way you want.
Some things cant be proven to everyone.. some people just ask to much.
It is pure folly to think all dice are exactly the same... why not leave it at that, and say when
they are a little different, they are a little different and most of us wont notice and cant
do anything about it anyway.
dicesetter
dicesetter:
From a "broad brush approach", your comments above seem to make sense, however, Compare the following specifics then re-evaluate!
1) I Purchased Three Sleeves of Dice, Measured, Weighed, Spin Tested, (Data in Table in my #1 Post on this thread) etc. only to find all 15 to be classified "IN BALANCE" on my Caliper, & to be manufactured under good manufacturing practices based upon minimal variation in dimension & weight between sleeves of the same dice.
I have thrown Red Die #1 & #3 on my Practice Table & judged them to exhibit normal variability based upon the distribution of 7's on those throws, as listed below.
Distribution of 7's was as Follows:
4 ~ 3's 25 Throws ~ 38.5%
5 ~ 2's 22 Throws ~ 33.8 %
6 ~ 1's 18 Throws ~ 27.47%
The above 7's were obtained over the course of throws, that it took to obtain the 65 7's distribution of which is
shown above.
2) Vs ~ Verified Dice Unbalance shown in the Video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )
Which Documents HEAVY #6 face on the Two Dice Spin Tested.
This Indicates the likelihood that an abnormal # of 6 ~ 1's, would appear on actual Dice Throws; this did NOT,
However, occur on the Balanced Dice I evaluated.
Yet, Craps Players are reporting an abnormal # of 6~1 SEVEN OUTS & 2's, 3's & 4's in Real World, Casino Craps Play. This data would appear to correlate with the Heavy 6 Faces in the DICE in the video above.
I do not have the Dice used in the Video, and do not know if they are currently available, however, they
are reported to be the very same Dice used in the Majority of the Casino's in Las Vegas. and have been Verified UNBALANCED.
So... You are Frequently Playing Craps With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It!
I Ask ~ Are You Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
There's a few Vegas casinos that during slow times (most of the time) cut off about 40% of the table and add a fo wall to shorten up the table. You can shoot from a spot very close too the wall. I never see anyone "skilled' actually playing on it. Closer should be better.
Explain why if DI was possible from a longer distance it isn't a gold mine here?
I see people setting the dice so obviously they didn't care about that.
Quote: AxelWolfProbably the wrong thread here, but obviously we have some DI Believers here.
There's a few Vegas casinos that during slow times (most of the time) cut off about 40% of the table and add a fo wall to shorten up the table. You can shoot from a spot very close too the wall. I never see anyone "skilled' actually playing on it. Closer should be better.
Explain why if DI was possible from a longer distance it isn't a gold mine here?
I see people setting the dice so obviously they didn't care about that.
AxelWolf & Others
I answer your Question, You answer mine ~ OK?
Like any athletic event, the following are required for one to be successful in that event:
1) A desire to do well at a particular event which you choose...
2) A belief that you can do well at the event which you have selected, to participate in...
3) Physical Fitness for the event you have selected (that 5 Ft. 5 In, 110# male
athlete, will not make the NFL, nor will the 300#, 6 Ft. 8 In male, do well in a running marathon...
4) Learn & understand the Rules of Play for the event you have selected...
5) Practice for the event you expect to do well at...
6) Develop what is called "Muscle Memory" through your practice routine...
7) Should you not do all of the above, you will do poorly against others (or the
house in CRAPS) , as they will have done their homework, (the House Advantage in CRAPS) i
n their own interest; to do well at the event they have chosen...
8) Problems ~ Yes, DI is not easy & many say not useful. Most that try it give up after a bit for various reasons, and I assume it will remain that way.
Now, the bottom line answer to your question:
A) Those cut off tables do not represent the Craps Table that one has been Practicing on...
B) Nothing Worse for a DI, than to SCREW up that Muscle Memory they worked so hard to establish...
C) I have seen those cut off set ups, but have never played at one, & never will!
Now, answer my Question!
So... You are Frequently Playing Craps With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It!
I Ask ~ Are You Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
Yesterday, I had an opportunity to observe steps to"verify Die Balance" prior to play @ the Paris Casino, Las Vegas, NV
It went like the following:
A) I observed steps for preparing to Open A New Craps Table
B) Operators assemble behind the table, pull plastic guard forward & Inventory Chips
C) At this point, I moved to the center of the Craps Pit, focusing on activity there
D) After some time, I saw a female get a set of Keys & Unlock a small cabinet there. She proceeded to pull out a sleeve of Dice. These dice appered to be packaged in a Clear Plastic Sleeve, which she pulled the end open & dumped the dice on the table top, of the cabinet from which she had pulled the dice out of.
At this time, a Suite moved next to her commenting something to her. As the Suite blocked my view, I proceeded around to the other side of the table, where I had a clear view of the action.
She pulled out a Dice Caliper & set it on the cabinet top. She then proceeded with the dice loading ritual, which required her to pull a lever, opening the Caliper with her Right Hand, then carefully loading the dice into it, with her Left hand, placing one of three major diaginals into the Caliper & releasing the lever, which appeared to be spring loaded, & now was securing the die in the caliper, with an unlnown force applied to the points of one major diagnal.
She took only a cusary look at the die, ~ ZERO SPIN APPLIED TO THE DIE ~ & with absolutely no knowledge of how free that die was to rotate, imediately grapsed the Die & released the lever, removing the Die & rotating it on to the next Major Diagonal, which she put carefully into the Caliper. To her credit, she "evaluated the die Balance" across all three Major Diagonals in this manner.
She then procrrded to sign a slip of paper & appeared to identify the dice as approved for that step. She then set the dice side by side & fingered them together, which could detect major dimensional variation, but I saw no effort to measure them ogtherwise. She then again entered what was likely an OK to use & Signed the paper, saving the paper & sending the dice to the table.
WOW, that Casino ~ Zero Spin ~ Dice Balance Practice in NO WAY VERIFIES that fhose Dice Are Balanced, PERIOD!
eagleeye2
Quote: Dalex64Maybe they were measuring that the length of all three diagonals were in spec. Sort of like how you would figure out if something were a cube.
The three Diagonals were in play, but I did not see a Dial Indicator Present & attempting to Verify Balanced Dice With ZERO SPIN of those Dice is Ludicrous!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2The three Diagonals were in play, but I did not see a Dial Indicator Present & attempting to Verify Balanced Dice With ZERO SPIN of those Dice is Ludicrous!
eagleeye2
It might be ludicrous to you who judges things without the possible knowledge they might have. What if the balnced/spun the dice from their supplier for 10 years. And this distrubutor not only tests them for quality control before shipping, but then they were re-tested by the casino and every time they were perfect. Would that still be ludicrous?
The problem is, you believe something you see on the Internet with no real proof or facts to back it up. Casinos deal with this kind of thing every day, multiple times a day for the last 60 years.
Just because you think something is a certain way doesn't mean it's true.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13It might be ludicrous to you who judges things without the possible knowledge they might have. What if the balnced/spun the dice from their supplier for 10 years. And this distrubutor not only tests them for quality control before shipping, but then they were re-tested by the casino and every time they were perfect. Would that still be ludicrous?
The problem is, you believe something you see on the Internet with no real proof or facts to back it up. Casinos deal with this kind of thing every day, multiple times a day for the last 60 years.
Just because you think something is a certain way doesn't mean it's true.
ZCore13
ZCore13,
Let's use a related example of Balance, i.e. a Race Car Tire!
ZERO race car teams would put a Tire on their Race Car that was NOT SPIN BALANCED to perfection AT HIGH SPEED, PERIOD.
Checking Dice that are to go into a Casino Craps Game, without a "Free Spin" on a Caliper to verify Their Balance is no different than that of the Race Car Tire.
Yet, Casino's continue to Ignore Dice Unbalance, resulting in...
All who Frequently Play Craps in Casino's are playing With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It!
I Ask ~ Are You Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2ZCore13,
Let's use a related example of Balance, i.e. a Race Car Tire!
ZERO race car teams would put a Tire on their Race Car that was NOT SPIN BALANCED to perfection AT HIGH SPEED, PERIOD.
Checking Dice that are to go into a Casino Craps Game, without a "Free Spin" on a Caliper to verify Their Balance is no different than that of the Race Car Tire.
Yet, Casino's continue to Ignore Dice Unbalance, resulting in...
All who Frequently Play Craps in Casino's are playing With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It!
I Ask ~ Are You Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
You are wrong. The driver receives the car and drives after professionals did their job and made sure the tires were put on and balanced correctly. The driver does not balance the tires himself.
Yes, I am very satisfied to bet my money under the exact conditions you described. Why is that? Because I have first hand knowledge of how things work in a casino. I don't watch videos and believe they are true.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13You are wrong. The driver receives the car and drives after professionals did their job and made sure the tires were put on and balanced correctly. The driver does not balance the tires himself.
Yes, I am very satisfied to bet my money under the exact conditions you described. Why is that? Because I have first hand knowledge of how things work in a casino. I don't watch videos and believe they are true.
ZCore13
ZCore13,
Somehow you are not relating to the SUBJECT HERE, i.e. Verifying that things are in Balance.
My example of a Race Car Tire which must be in BALANCE,to prevent violent shaking of the Race Car; is no different than a Die, which must be in Balance to provide a FAIR GAME OF CRAPS.
For both the Dice & Race Car Tire, Spinning Must take place, to establish what is required to Balance it, then subsequently Re-SPIN it to Verify that it has been successfully Balanced..
Kindly point out what ""I have first hand knowledge of how things work in a casino. I don't watch videos and believe they are true."" you have.
Thanks
eagleeye2
Again, no matter how much this is discussed there cant be a simple straight
forward answer to it.
1... all dice cant be perfect... so there will be variance
2....if as I believe the dice are just different and not made different on purpose
the result may just as well be less 7's as more, or more 8 than 7' there is no
way to tell.
3....you have to be pretty good at reading the dice to see the results of imbalance
4....you have to a very very good DI not only to see it, but have enough knowledge of
sets and their results and enough influence over the dice to adjust to it, many miles
over my head.
5 the vast majority of casino's have no idea how to properly test the dice some have
given up on even trying.
MY advice to myself and others... you see something funny, just quit and play on a different
table. The few players that are good enough to take advantage of dice that are not
balanced correctly don't need the advice of any of us.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterEagleeye2
Again, no matter how much this is discussed there cant be a simple straight
forward answer to it.
1... all dice cant be perfect... so there will be variance
2....if as I believe the dice are just different and not made different on purpose
the result may just as well be less 7's as more, or more 8 than 7' there is no
way to tell.
3....you have to be pretty good at reading the dice to see the results of imbalance
4....you have to a very very good DI not only to see it, but have enough knowledge of
sets and their results and enough influence over the dice to adjust to it, many miles
over my head.
5 the vast majority of casino's have no idea how to properly test the dice some have
given up on even trying.
MY advice to myself and others... you see something funny, just quit and play on a different
table. The few players that are good enough to take advantage of dice that are not
balanced correctly don't need the advice of any of us.
dicesetter
dicesetter,
I will reply to your post using your referenced #'s
1) Agreed
2) There is a definite difference between DICE, weather due to Poor Manufacturing Practices or INTENTIONALLY. Look back to my #1Post on this subject. I purchased three sleeves of NEW Dice from three suppliers (unsure of the # of Manufacturers). All of the 15 Dice were Measured, Weighed, & Free Spin Tested on a Dice Caliper. None of these Dice were found to be Unbalanced & all were judged to be Manufactured under Good Manufacturing Practices.
I ask just Why Did these Dice Differ from those b eing frequently Utilized in Casino's, as evidenced in tis link: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )??? This Difference is what this thread is all about.
3) Agreed
4) Agreed
5) Agreed
6) Dicesetter, your # 3 & # 4 comments imply that the average Craps Player has no idea of how to deect Unbalanced Dice in a Casino, Which I Agree to!
Yet, your final conclusion is:
""MY advice to myself and others... you see something funny, just quit and play on a different
table."" ~ I ask, how can these folks "see something funny with your # 6 conclusion above"???
The Question at Hand is Thus ~ All who Frequently Play Craps in Casino's are playing With Loaded Dice, Yet Do Not Even Realize It & have no way of establishing it!
I Ask ~ Are You Players Taken Individually, Happy Betting Your Hard Earned $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's, where Casinos Do Not Utilize Fair & Balanced Dice???
eagleeye2
Again you use the word loaded........I don't know for sure, but on the surface of things
I don't think they load the dice on purpose. ( now having said that I am not saying it
never has been done, I don't know).
But if you don't happen to be one of a handful of players that are good enough to see
bad dice and know what to do about... you see something funny.... quit.
For the vast majority of dice in play.... its hard to see a difference.... tonight all over this
country there are players that have great rolls, making money,,, losing money, there are players
saying these are terrible dice, they throw the dice off the table every other roll and lose and
yup the damn dice are bad. They bet way over their heads and lose and it has to be the dice
For the most part I think bad dice can affect the dice and help some people win and hurt some
others....no way to tell for sure, depends on how you bet...
But you cant do anything about it..... the only decision any of has is to play or not to play.
I fish walleye tournaments, some times we do well, some times we don't.... but no matter what I have
to pay for the gas, the boat, the motel, the food... same choice fish or don't fish.
I know you say well why play when its not fair.....you have no way ahead of time to know that,
so make a decision.
Dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterEagleeye2
Again you use the word loaded........I don't know for sure, but on the surface of things
I don't think they load the dice on purpose. ( now having said that I am not saying it
never has been done, I don't know).
But if you don't happen to be one of a handful of players that are good enough to see
bad dice and know what to do about... you see something funny.... quit.
For the vast majority of dice in play.... its hard to see a difference.... tonight all over this
country there are players that have great rolls, making money,,, losing money, there are players
saying these are terrible dice, they throw the dice off the table every other roll and lose and
yup the damn dice are bad. They bet way over their heads and lose and it has to be the dice
For the most part I think bad dice can affect the dice and help some people win and hurt some
others....no way to tell for sure, depends on how you bet...
But you cant do anything about it..... the only decision any of has is to play or not to play.
I fish walleye tournaments, some times we do well, some times we don't.... but no matter what I have
to pay for the gas, the boat, the motel, the food... same choice fish or don't fish.
I know you say well why play when its not fair.....you have no way ahead of time to know that,
so make a decision.
Dicesetter
dicesetter,
Most of what you say cannot be disputed, however, IMHO, the Dice Verified Unbalanced in Favor of Heavy #6 & #5's with a corresponding increase in 2's, 3's & 7's ( as shown in the Video) are detrimental to both Do & Don't Betters, favoring the Casino's & increasing their House Take by several % Points.
The above makes it difficult to WIN at Casino Craps, when playing against Biased Dice.
Check out the following Link, which has a # of Exerts Backing their comments!
http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html
eagleeye2
I ask anyone that Purchased from Heavy, his 2015 "Axis Power Craps" Dice to respond to the following question!
1) When you received the Dice, describe the Wrapping they were in!
2) I asked this, as the New Dice I saw opened @ Paris Casino, appeared to be in a Plastic Sleeve, not the traditional Gold Foil Sleeve.
eagleeye2
Explain how you see a bias and how you bet????
dicesetter
Better yet lets see a video
sure which has good dice or bad dice, and which of the 5 dice are bad, and then
how are going to bet. Are all dice bad and if not, which days are they good or bad.
If you don't think you can win... don't play.. in that case the casino has no
advantage over you or any one else...
I have made up my mind, if I see something unusual I quit unless I see something
that i feel i can take advantage of...and for me that does not happen much.
I am on your side here.... but i think your wasting a lot of time talking about it.
My stance is clear you have to be able to influence the dice and then find a way to
make that work for you to alter the results, i tried to have a conversation about that
here but that did not go well, so now we spend all of our time talking about something
we cant do anything about.
No wonder the casino does so well.
Dicesetter
I'm not claiming there is a bias. But lest assume many casinos are purposely using biased dice(thats what the BD camp seems to be claiming). They claim the dice usually favor more sevens. They mentioned they usually target big event weekends. If a casino was using BD all that makes sense. Go to the casinos during peak times Bet against the public/crowd, especially when people have large wagers going, hoping a seven doesn't hit. Keep your bests low enough not to encourage the casino to change out the dice.Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
Explain how you see a bias and how you bet????
dicesetter
Better yet lets see a video
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not claiming there is a bias. But lest assume many casinos are purposely using biased dice(thats what the BD camp seems to be claiming). They claim the dice usually favor more sevens. They mentioned they usually target big event weekends. If a casino was using BD all that makes sense. Go to the casinos during peak times Bet against the public/crowd, especially when people have large wagers going, hoping a seven doesn't hit. Keep your bests low enough not to encourage the casino to change out the dice.
dicesetter says ~ No wonder the casino does so well.
AxleWolf says ~ Go to the casinos during peak times Bet against the public/crowd, especially when people have large wagers going, hoping a seven doesn't hit. Keep your bests low enough not to encourage the casino to change out the dice.
Now guys, those things may do well for some, however, wouldn't it be better to ""Resolve The Dice Unbalance Mystery"" then ALL can avoid those Casino's that Utilize Unbalanced Dice & or Better Force those Casino's to Return to using BALANCED DICE???
Both you guys can contribute, but you must first accept the Reality that Some Casino's Use unbalanced Dice some of the time!
So... All, are Frequently Playing Craps With Loaded Dice & Do Not Even Realize It, giving up an estimated 2% Craps Profit to the Casino's, in the process
I Ask ~ Are You Individually Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
Quote: ontariodealerand you guys thought varmenti was nuts.
ontariodealer says ~ and you guys thought varmenti was nuts.
WOW ~ Reality can & is Very Strange here!
Here we have (ontariodealer), a 40 Year Craps Dealer who thinks it's OK for Casino's to Utilize UNBALANCED Dice, adding to their % Craps Take from their Customers without INFORMING those Customer CRAPS Players thereto!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2ontariodealer says ~ and you guys thought varmenti was nuts.
WOW ~ Reality can & is Very Strange here!
Here we have (ontariodealer), a 40 Year Craps Dealer who thinks it's OK for Casino's to Utilize UNBALANCED Dice, adding to their % Craps Take from their Customers without INFORMING those Customer CRAPS Players thereto!
eagleeye2
Please inform us how dice taken from plastic from the factory are necarrily based towards the house? What if they are biased towards the total of 6?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Please inform us how dice taken from plastic from the factory are necarrily based towards the house? What if they are biased towards the total of 6?
ZCore13
ZCore13,
Sorry if you misunderstood my post, I posted the following in an effort to book facts:
""Back to Basic Detective Work!
I ask anyone that Purchased from Heavy, his 2015 "Axis Power Craps" Dice to respond to the following question!
1) When you received the Dice, describe the Wrapping they were in!
2) I asked this, as the New Dice I saw opened @ Paris Casino, appeared to be in a Plastic Sleeve, not the traditional Gold Foil Sleeve.
eagleeye2""
I have not stated that the Dice I saw @ Paris CASINO were "unbalanced", Only that they "appeared to be in a Plastic Sleeve, not the traditional Gold Foil Sleeve."
All three sets of Dice that I Purchased & were packaged in the "Traditional Gold Foil Sleeve", & I found all 15 to be balanced on a Dice Caliper. Also, I have observed Casino's remove Dice from Gold Foil Packaging in the past.
For Detective Work, ""I ask anyone that Purchased from Heavy, his 2015 "Axis Power Craps" Dice to respond to the following question!
1) When you received the Dice, describe the Wrapping they were in!""
This Link Verifies that the above Dice were UNBALANCED ~ ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )
This Detective Work is an effort to establish the Likely Manufacturer of the Dice in the Video.
Now, how Dice Are Packaged Is only Circumstantial Evidence, of the Likely Manufacturer.
Yes, We still Need a Reply to the Dice Packaging Question!
eagleeye2
I would absolutely be ecstatic if all the casinos were using biased dice. I beg of them to do so. I dream of the day I find such a "paradice"Quote: eagleeye2
I Ask ~ Are You Individually Happy Betting Your $$$ Under Such Conditions of Craps Play in Casino's???
eagleeye2
Take me down to the biasdice city
Where the dice aren't clean but the money is pretty
Make me roll (oh won't you please make me roll)
Just a roller livin' in a suite
it's a hard 8 that's tough to beat
I'm your hot roller so find me some bones that cheat.
I'll win you another grand at a time
Take it down off the passline
Rags to riches or so I say
Ya gotta keep bet'n for the fortune and fame
You know it's not a gamble when it's a bias 6 and 1
Ya bet it for the 7 to come
Everybody's sweating the chump.
Loaded dice a the casinos craps table
Why you're here I can't quite remember
The 1-800--eagleeye says it's hazardous gamble
I'd lose another grand, but its just a fable
Tell me who you're gonna believe.
Take me down to the bias dice city
Where the dice aren't clean but the money is pretty
Make me roll (oh won't you please make me roll)
Captains stories been torn apart
Now he's a court jester with a broken heart
We said, bouncing around, Video proof
I must be losing my mind, are they blind?
I've seen it all a million times
I wanna roll, I wanna roll
Oh won't you please let me roll
I wanna see how good I can be
I wanna see, what a bias can be
Oh won't you please let me roll, yeah, baby
Quote: AxelWolfI would absolutely be ecstatic if all the casinos were using biased dice. I beg of them to do so. I dream of the day I find such a "paradice"
Take me down to the biasdice city
Where the dice aren't clean but the money is pretty
Make me roll (oh won't you please make me roll)
Just a roller livin' in a suite
it's a hard 8 that's tough to beat
I'm your hot roller so find me some bones that cheat.
I'll win you another grand at a time
Take it down off the passline
Rags to riches or so I say
Ya gotta keep bet'n for the fortune and fame
You know it's not a gamble when it's a bias 6 and 1
Ya bet it for the 7 to come
Everybody's sweating the chump.
Loaded dice a the casinos craps table
Why you're here I can't quite remember
The 1-800--eagleeye says it's hazardous gamble
I'd lose another grand, but its just a fable
Tell me who you're gonna believe.
Take me down to the bias dice city
Where the dice aren't clean but the money is pretty
Make me roll (oh won't you please make me roll)
Captains stories been torn apart
Now he's a court jester with a broken heart
We said, bouncing around, Video proof
I must be losing my mind, are they blind?
I've seen it all a million times
I wanna roll, I wanna roll
Oh won't you please let me roll
I wanna see how good I can be
I wanna see, what a bias can be
Oh won't you please let me roll, yeah, baby
AxleWolf,
Nice of you to express your beliefs, NOW, if you would set your Paradigms Aside & assist in resolving the ""Dice Unbalance Mystery", you would KNOW EXACTLY when the Casino's were using Unbalanced Dice & subsequently take advantage of it, as you indicate in your post above.
However, You may need a LOT of LUCK, as Dice Verified Unbalanced in Favor of Heavy #6 & #5's with a corresponding increase in 2's, 3's & 7's ( as shown in the Video) are detrimental to both Do & Don't Betters, favoring the Casino's & increasing their House Take by several % Points.
The above makes it difficult to WIN at Casino Craps, when playing against Biased Dice.
Check out the following Link, which has a # of Exerts Backing their comments!
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )
eagleeye2
this is what you said
Member since: Oct 10, 2012
Threads: 82
Posts: 7562
Just keep betting with the bias, count your profits at the end of the year. If you are ahead keep going. Basically that's what DI's do.
I was wondering where you got that information
dicesetter
Yesterday 5-21-2015, I ran into an expired M~O~N~S~T~E~R . R~O~L~L!
I was cruising Casino's in downtown Las Vegas when I entered Fitzgeralds Casino. I seldom go into Fitzgeralds, as they have two Huge 18 Foot Long Tables. It was 2:45 pm, & as I entered,at the table closest to the street there was a Casino Host with a Clip Board talking to a customer @ the left end of the table The guy was about 6' 3" tall, about 60' ish & looked like he could have played in the NFL.
As I walked up, I heard the Host say, what size Jacket do you want? He replied XXX Large. This alerted me, as they provide Free Jackets only to players that have thrown 60 times before a 7 OUT!
His end of the table was empty, but there were four people standing to the right side, with BIG STACKS of Chips waiting to Color Out. I saw $800+ to $2100 color out on these players, but I am sure that the other side had some much bigger Color Outs.
Fitzgeralds has an Electronic Counter on the table to count the # of throws made by each player. This counter was on ( 79 ), yes Seventy Nine, WOW!
That is one of those Once in a lifetime Rolls to be on, Unfortunately, I was two hours late for this one!
Fitzgeralds has a Hot Roller area with Placques for players that have Hit 60 or more. I reviewed this area & this Guy's 79 Rolls was the First 2015 Placque that I Saw (I will review this closer next time I get downtown).
Yes, CRAPS Players DREAM ~ ON!
ealeeye2
The dice, even unbalance, cannot be played to an advantage and they do not provide an extra advantage (over the house advantage) to the casino.
How hard is that to understand? Why keep explaining a whole bunch of stuff that just doesn't matter.
Just like setting dice, if it was exploitable you would be exploiting it here and not weighing dice all the time. Dice setters would be making money and not posting here about it without proving it.
There are zero APs on here that play as APs at craps...does that tell us something!!
Quote: RonCThe dice are not balanced.
The dice, even unbalance, cannot be played to an advantage and they do not provide an extra advantage (over the house advantage) to the casino.
How hard is that to understand? Why keep explaining a whole bunch of stuff that just doesn't matter.
Just like setting dice, if it was exploitable you would be exploiting it here and not weighing dice all the time. Dice setters would be making money and not posting here about it without proving it.
There are zero APs on here that play as APs at craps...does that tell us something!!
RonC.
Please provide your PROOF of this statement:
"The dice, even unbalance, cannot be played to an advantage and they do not provide an extra advantage (over the house advantage) to the casino.""
There are Real Professionals out there that DISAGREE With Your Statement!
Folks, compare this to RonC's Flap!
Check out the following Link, which has a # of Exerts Backing their comments!
http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html
eagleeye2
Quote: ontariodealereagleeye2......you are nuts.
ontariodealer,
Look In A Mirror, DUH!
Yes, Here we have (ontariodealer), a 40 Year Craps Dealer who thinks it's OK for Casino's to Utilize UNBALANCED Dice, adding to their % Craps Take from their Customers without INFORMING those Customer CRAPS Players that they are IN FACT UTILZIING UNBALANCED DICE, now, that is INSANE!
eagleeye2
