CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
Yup. Just like the TV commercial. "I heard it on the Internet. So it must be true." Now it's, "I bought it on the Internet. So it must be legit."Quote: eagleeye2Those very Dice were Purchased From HEAVY's web site, Have Heavy's Logo, Guaranteed 100% Balanced, Machined to 0.0001 Inch, & Made in Las Vegas, by the same Company that makes most Dice used in Las Vegas Casino's! Yes, these Dice are NO Different than tghe ones used in Las Vegas Casino's, Period. Just how can you object to them?
Quote: SanchoPanzaYup. Just like the TV commercial. "I heard it on the Internet. So it must be true." Now it's, "I bought it on the Internet. So it must be legit."
Wow, That SanchoPanza must be from Missouri, & cannot be shown to his satisfaction!
eagleeye2
Quote: SanchoPanzaYup. Just like the TV commercial. "I heard it on the Internet. So it must be true." Now it's, "I bought it on the Internet. So it must be legit."
So it's a Mind Set blocking your objectivity.
Mind sets do impede rational thinking within the human brain.
Try reviewing my comments about the Dice in the Video of Unbalanced Dice ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be
Recalling that Those very Dice were Purchased From HEAVY's web site, Have Heavy's Logo, Guaranteed 100% Balanced, Machined to 0.0001 Inch, & Made in Las Vegas, by the same Company that makes most Dice used in Las Vegas Casino's! Yes, these Dice are NO Different than the ones used in Las Vegas Casino's, Period. Just how can you object to them?
eagleeye2
There IS a game that can be played with a player advantage...Blackjack with a card counter. The casinos do everything they can to get rid of anyone who is a card counter, and they don't even necessarily care about them winning or losing. They want rid of people who can take advantage of them by counting.
Why? The game has an advantage for them in all instances except when it is being counted (well, unless someone is speed counting...just tossing that in). They KNOW counters can gain an advantage so they pursue them and remove them from play.
A dice game would be the same way. If dice came on the table regularly that someone could gain an advantage with, the house would lose. They aren't going to put dice in play that give someone the chance at an advantage. Too many sevens, the don't side wins. Too few sevens, the other side wins.
The house wants the results that happen with fair dice tossed correctly (hitting the randomizers at the end of the table) BECAUSE THEY WIN EITHER WAY WITH THOSE DICE!
Quote: RonCEE2...why not think about it like this and maybe you will get the point you seem to be missing...
There IS a game that can be played with a player advantage...Blackjack with a card counter. The casinos do everything they can to get rid of anyone who is a card counter, and they don't even necessarily care about them winning or losing. They want rid of people who can take advantage of them by counting.
Why? The game has an advantage for them in all instances except when it is being counted (well, unless someone is speed counting...just tossing that in). They KNOW counters can gain an advantage so they pursue them and remove them from play.
A dice game would be the same way. If dice came on the table regularly that someone could gain an advantage with, the house would lose. They aren't going to put dice in play that give someone the chance at an advantage. Too many sevens, the don't side wins. Too few sevens, the other side wins.
The house wants the results that happen with fair dice tossed correctly (hitting the randomizers at the end of the table) BECAUSE THEY WIN EITHER WAY WITH THOSE DICE!
Careful how you tout Player Advantage in Blackjack! Casino's have beaten Blackjack Card Counting basically into Never~Never land! Here's how they did it!
1) Strategy ~ Single deck 1 Player Optimal results: - 0.18% (Most % Figures from Vizard of Vegas Odds Tables, check for yourself )
2) Two Level Card Counting, Single Deck, 1 Player Gain 1.74% ~ ( Two level Play Adjusts both Bet & Play Based Upon Card Count ~ ) Note 95% of card counters use only a single level card counting system)
3) For each Player added to the table, one can effectively Multiply the Gain By 0.50%), thus 2 Players Net is But 0.87%
4) Pay 6 to 5 on Backjack, Not Pay 2 to1 ~ for a Casino take back of 1.21% Roughly 69% of your original advantage in a single deck, Single Player Blackjack
Dam for 2 or more players you are Playing into Negative Expectations from Pay of 6 to 5 Vs 2 to 1 alone.
5) Two Deck ~ loss of 0.30%
6) 8 Deck Shoe ~ Over Single Deck Loss of 0.50%
7) Player can not hit Split Aces ~ loss of 0.15%
8) Player cannot re-split Aces ~ -Loss of .03%
9) No Late Surrender ~ Loss Of 0.03%
10) Dealer hits Soft 17 Loss of 0.17%
So, Casino's win again, you will do better as a card counter, but you will only win based upon your ability to take advantage of card flow, it is noot like it used to be!
30 Years ago all one had to do was hit the Single Deck table having several couples playing at it, about 11:00 pm they headed to bed by 12:00, after which You were left "GRANDFATHERED IN" having that table for yourself One on One with the Dealer as long as you wished.
Not so today,, Casino's keep but Very Few Single Decks Open & Keep the ones they open busy. Get playing by yourself later & they will CLOSE that table, sending you to a full one, a big hit to your % take, as sown above.
Now tell the folks that you play the 8 Deck Shoes, numerous players @ the table & count cards, winning consistently & I'll say B.S.
eagleeye2
Someone that believes in DI and how much $$$ they can make, is calling card counting and winning an 8 deck shoe BS.Quote: eagleeye2
Now tell the folks that you play the 8 Deck Shoes, numerous players @ the table & count cards, winning consistently & I'll say B.S.
eagleeye2
WOW JUST WOW!!
Someone that believes in DI and how much $$$ they can make, is calling card counting and winning an 8 deck shoe BS.Quote: eagleeye2
Now tell the folks that you play the 8 Deck Shoes, numerous players @ the table & count cards, winning consistently & I'll say B.S.
eagleeye2
WOW JUST WOW!!
Quote: AxelWolfSomeone that believes in DI and how much $$$ they can make, is calling card counting and winning an 8 deck shoe BS.
WOW JUST WOW!!
Axlewolf,
I explaned myself with Odds/House Advantage #'s shown & taken from "Wizard of Odds Web Site" no need for you to believe them!
I simply laid out the facts!
P.S. Keep up knocking Di, it helps keep Casino Heat off the DI's.
QUOTE:
Careful how you tout Player Advantage in Blackjack! Casino's have beaten Blackjack Card Counting basically into Never~Never land! Here's how they did it!
1) Strategy ~ Single deck 1 Player Optimal results: - 0.18% (Most % Figures from Vizard of Vegas Odds Tables, check for yourself )
2) Two Level Card Counting, Single Deck, 1 Player Gain 1.74% ~ ( Two level Play Adjusts both Bet & Play Based Upon Card Count ~ ) Note 95% of card counters use only a single level card counting system)
3) For each Player added to the table, one can effectively Multiply the Gain By 0.50%), thus 2 Players Net is But 0.87%
4) Pay 6 to 5 on Backjack, Not Pay 2 to1 ~ for a Casino take back of 1.21% Roughly 69% of your original advantage in a single deck, Single Player Blackjack
Dam for 2 or more players you are Playing into Negative Expectations from Pay of 6 to 5 Vs 2 to 1 alone.
5) Two Deck ~ loss of 0.30%
6) 8 Deck Shoe ~ Over Single Deck Loss of 0.50%
7) Player can not hit Split Aces ~ loss of 0.15%
8) Player cannot re-split Aces ~ -Loss of .03%
9) No Late Surrender ~ Loss Of 0.03%
10) Dealer hits Soft 17 Loss of 0.17%
So, Casino's win again, you will do better as a card counter, but you will only win based upon your ability to take advantage of card flow, it is noot like it used to be!
30 Years ago all one had to do was hit the Single Deck table having several couples playing at it, about 11:00 pm they headed to bed by 12:00, after which You were left "GRANDFATHERED IN" having that table for yourself One on One with the Dealer as long as you wished.
Not so today,, Casino's keep but Very Few Single Decks Open & Keep the ones they open busy. Get playing by yourself later & they will CLOSE that table, sending you to a full one, a big hit to your % take, as sown above.
Now tell the folks that you play the 8 Deck Shoes, numerous players @ the table & count cards, winning consistently & I'll say B.S.
eagleeye2
Posted in reply to another post!
Why did you bogther to read it, DUH!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2Dalex64,
Posted in reply to another post!
Why did you bogther to read it, DUH!
eagleeye2
No. This is a post in reply...
Quote: eagleeye2Axlewolf,
I explaned myself with Odds/House Advantage #'s shown & taken from "Wizard of Odds Web Site" no need for you to believe them!
I simply laid out the facts!
P.S. Keep up knocking Di, it helps keep Casino Heat off the DI's.
All the rest is another repost, another copy/paste. I've asked before to cease and advised it was against the rules, specifically Rule 5 - Do not post the same message more than once. This includes posting the same message in two or more places, and re-posting because nobody replied the first time. If you didn't get a response the first time, chances are nobody else had anything to say about it.
That's two thus far, Shooter.
Quote: FaceNo. This is a post in reply...
All the rest is another repost, another copy/paste. I've asked before to cease and advised it was against the rules, specifically Rule 5 - Do not post the same message more than once. This includes posting the same message in two or more places, and re-posting because nobody replied the first time. If you didn't get a response the first time, chances are nobody else had anything to say about it.
That's two thus far, Shooter.
I do like the Phoito & reply, but the last line cinches it!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2Careful how you tout Player Advantage in Blackjack! Casino's have beaten Blackjack Card Counting basically into Never~Never land! Here's how they did it!
1) Strategy ~ Single deck 1 Player Optimal results: - 0.18% (Most % Figures from Vizard of Vegas Odds Tables, check for yourself )
2) Two Level Card Counting, Single Deck, 1 Player Gain 1.74% ~ ( Two level Play Adjusts both Bet & Play Based Upon Card Count ~ ) Note 95% of card counters use only a single level card counting system)
3) For each Player added to the table, one can effectively Multiply the Gain By 0.50%), thus 2 Players Net is But 0.87%
4) Pay 6 to 5 on Backjack, Not Pay 2 to1 ~ for a Casino take back of 1.21% Roughly 69% of your original advantage in a single deck, Single Player Blackjack
Dam for 2 or more players you are Playing into Negative Expectations from Pay of 6 to 5 Vs 2 to 1 alone.
5) Two Deck ~ loss of 0.30%
6) 8 Deck Shoe ~ Over Single Deck Loss of 0.50%
7) Player can not hit Split Aces ~ loss of 0.15%
8) Player cannot re-split Aces ~ -Loss of .03%
9) No Late Surrender ~ Loss Of 0.03%
10) Dealer hits Soft 17 Loss of 0.17%
So, Casino's win again, you will do better as a card counter, but you will only win based upon your ability to take advantage of card flow, it is noot like it used to be!
30 Years ago all one had to do was hit the Single Deck table having several couples playing at it, about 11:00 pm they headed to bed by 12:00, after which You were left "GRANDFATHERED IN" having that table for yourself One on One with the Dealer as long as you wished.
Not so today,, Casino's keep but Very Few Single Decks Open & Keep the ones they open busy. Get playing by yourself later & they will CLOSE that table, sending you to a full one, a big hit to your % take, as sown above.
Now tell the folks that you play the 8 Deck Shoes, numerous players @ the table & count cards, winning consistently & I'll say B.S.
Dam, I forgot the ABSOLUTE WORST Casino Take-back Tactic in Blackjack, (which you will see if you Play single or Double deck Blackjack in Las Vegas), that is:
* When Anyone @ the table More than DOUBLES their Last Bet, the Dealer RESHUFFLES, or grabs a new shuffled deck, with automatic shuffles!
If you have not seen this, you haven't played a lot recently, in Las Vegas!
Yes, whenever the Point Count Goes Significantly Positive, your Bet Change Is thus limited, by the Casino. No, Wizard of Odds Web Site does not account for this, but it significantly reduces one's Card Counting Percentage Advantage.
Yes, I have countered this, by More than Doubling my Bet when the Point Count is Significantly Negative & it Does Work to get through Negative Portions of a Deck, providing a bit of help to the players.
eagleeye2
Card counting does work. That is why the casinos fight it.
Dice balance is not a serious concern. Dice Control/Influence is not a serious concern. That is why casinos mostly laugh at it. Casinos don't fight it; they just want the dice to hit the back wall and to move at a decent speed.
Quote: RonCI don't think this member is seriously trying to advance an idea or opinion anymore...
I figured that the minute he began pouting because I didn't agree with his findings. Those in search of knowledge actively seek out conflicting opinions. The "nay sayers" he laments are the very people who give you something to think about and reveal angles you may have missed. And despite that I think the entire concept is laughable, all of my input has been completely genuine.
Between the pouting, the taunting, and refusal to discuss the information presented (watch this / go post that there), there is no reason to think that any part of this is legit or worth the time.
But hey, at least it wasn't bac based lunacy this time =)
Quote: DanMahoneyThose super crap heroes Superick and Harley would also post the same stuff over and over and over again.
amen
Quote: RonCI don't think this member is seriously trying to advance an idea or opinion anymore...I am waiting for him to be suspended for repeatedly failing to heed ample warnings from Face.
Card counting does work. That is why the casinos fight it.
Dice balance is not a serious concern. Dice Control/Influence is not a serious concern. That is why casinos mostly laugh at it. Casinos don't fight it; they just want the dice to hit the back wall and to move at a decent speed.
No offence to the originator of this thread but what ron c says here is right on the money. And I got 41 years of experience and a bad back because of it.
Quote: ontariodealerNo offence to the originator of this thread but what ron c says here is right on the money. And I got 41 years of experience and a bad back because of it.
ontariodealer,
Could you explain what you consider "right on the money" & why?
eagleeye2
I would say the above, in response to your "two, shooter", makes three. Lock and load?
Of course, I'd be a fool to believe it was anything but a taunt, but really. I'm not worried about it. He'll get the same benefit of doubt I try to extend to everyone. This will all resolve itself soon enough anyways.
Permission to hurry along the inevitable?Quote: FaceMeh. There are a bunch of folks, even long time members, who for whatever reason have difficulties with posting. I've seen quotes like that before quite often.
Of course, I'd be a fool to believe it was anything but a taunt, but really. I'm not worried about it. He'll get the same benefit of doubt I try to extend to everyone. This will all resolve itself soon enough anyways.
There is a TON of material on the subject of this thread, posted in some 173 Postings at this point; thus eclipsing most other threads here by a BIG margin.
Yet, outside of the Dice Physical Data presented in the #1 Posting, virtually all other postings are presented with a very biased mindset from both sides.
Typical jargon goes like:
A) Dice Unbalance Exists...
B) No such thing as Dice Unbalance...
C) Dice Balances continue to Verify Unbalance...
D) No Die is Perfectly Balanced, so what...
E) Any Unbalance affects a real world dice Throw...
F) The Degree of Unbalance is insufficient to make a difference in a throw...
F) Casino's Change Out Dice after a HOT roll for their Benefit...
G) No difference in Dice, Casino's change out only to check that the Dice have not been changed..
H) Casino's Know they are using Unbalanced Dice...
I) No Casino would Intentionally use Unbalanced Dice, it could affect their gambling license...
J) & On & On...
Should you not be familiar with the concept of PARADIGMS, as it applies to HUMAN THOUGHT PATTERNS, look it up; IMHO It's 100% Valid!
Bottom line of Paradigms is the concept that ""You Are Where You Were When", which likely explains many postings to this thread.
Contrary to many on this thread, my Intent of Initiating the subject of this thread, i.e. ""CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"" was in an attempt to get to the bottom of this Mystery!
To this end, I ask all to review their Individual PARADIGMS on this subject, then Contribute wherever they think they can, to help Unravel this Mystery.
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2
Contrary to many on this thread, my Intent of Initiating the subject of this thread, i.e. ""CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA"" was in an attempt to get to the bottom of this Mystery!
To this end, I ask all to review their Individual PARADIGMS on this subject, then Contribute wherever they think they can, to help Unravel this Mystery.
eagleeye2
The problem with you wanting to get to the bottom of the mystery is that you don't listen to the people that are telling you that:
A POSSIBLE slight unbalance to all the dice won't make a difference in the game.
The Casinos don't purposely insert, nor do they care about using unbalanced dice.
The dice in the video showing they are unbalanced may have been placed in the caliper incorrectly.
Nobody in the history of craps has proven that they can control or influence the dice on a legal shot to make any difference in the game.
Just because you started this conversation doesn't mean that all of us that have been here for years haven't been through it all dozens of times before. You're not the first, nor will you be the last person to bring up unbalance, dice control, dice influence, casino accusations or anything else of the nature with absolutely no statistical or verifiable proof.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13The problem with you wanting to get to the bottom of the mystery is that you don't listen to the people that are telling you that:
A POSSIBLE slight unbalance to all the dice won't make a difference in the game.
The Casinos don't purposely insert, nor do they care about using unbalanced dice.
The dice in the video showing they are unbalanced may have been placed in the caliper incorrectly.
Nobody in the history of craps has proven that they can control or influence the dice on a legal shot to make any difference in the game.
Just because you started this conversation doesn't mean that all of us that have been here for years haven't been through it all dozens of times before. You're not the first, nor will you be the last person to bring up unbalance, dice control, dice influence, casino accusations or anything else of the nature with absolutely no statistical or verifiable proof.
ZCore13
ZCore13,
Thanks for your reply.
I agree that there is no verifiable Proof of dice control, dice influence, casino accusations or anything else of the nature, in the game of CRAPS.
I respectfully disagree with you, however, as to Verification of Unbalanced Dice. The Video, floating around, IMHO Provides Proof of Unbalanced Dice to my satisfaction. The rocking Back & Forth after the dice Spin Slows down, verifies Low Friction of Die to caliper, (with Gravity the only Force acting on the Die), not improper installation of the die in the caliper.
Now, Just How this low level of unbalance affects a Dice Throw in CAPS, has yet & may never be established; in which case it is a mute point as you imply.
If, however, there is something to be gained by recognizing Unbalance in Casino dice, I would Love to be one to Capitalize on it.
Keep the comments coming, there may be a solution to this Mystery yet!
eagleeye2
is
That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. To expect others to agree about something that has not and seemingly cannot be replicated, and that at any rate has admittedly had no visible effects on outcomes, is going way too far.Quote: eagleeye2The rocking Back & Forth after the dice Spin Slows down, verifies Low Friction of Die to caliper, (with Gravity the only Force acting on the Die), not improper installation of the die in the caliper.
you are looking for conspiracies where they do not exist.
anyway, good luck to you
Quote: ontariodealereagleeye, like demango says, this thread should end.........when you buy a new car the specs will say gross wt 4,000, mpg est 35.....some will weigh 3998 and get 34 mph, some will weigh 4003 and get 37. same with the dice
you are looking for conspiracies where they do not exist.
anyway, good luck to you
ontariodealer,
Conspiracies ?
Recall that I have stated that Ample Evidence exists that Casino's are UNAWARE, that they are employing Unbalanced Dice.
Also that the Casino's Objective is to Maximize Profits; while 99.9% of Players would like to profit from their Casino Experiences.
Thus, Casino's take advantage of all things they feel ,will take them in the direction of Maximizing their Profits.
While the Players make an effort to take advantage of every little Gap in the Casino's Armor, in their attempt to avoid loosing their $ stake.
There may or there may not be that little "Gap in the Casino's Armor Relative to Unbalanced Dice", but I will pursue it until I am satisfied with the conclusion.
eagleeye2
ALL DICE ARE NOT PERFECTLY BALANCED
That's fine...but then trying to take it to the next step, he loses almost all credibility. The imbalance is not huge, it does not alter the outcomes of rolls in a way that is exploitable by ANYONE (casino or player), he does not acknowledge that the casinos don't need to cheat because they have a built in advantage, and he keeps repeating a bunch of unproven things.
Time to end the nonsense.
Quote: eagleeye2
how many times you have seen the CASINO change out the DICE after a great roll by a SHOOTER? Now, it's obvious that most DICE can last a full day, or at least a full shift, why, then WHY DOES the CASINO change them out after that HOT ROLL?
Three potential ANSWERS IMHO:
1) CASINO Personnel are Superstitious
2) TABLE Personnel got that Call From Upstairs, to Pull & Inspect the DICE, to verify that they haven't been changed or modified by a table magician!
3) Casino wants to CUT POTENTIAL LOSSES, by inserting DICE they feel will aid the CASINO, i.e. UNBALANCED DICE!
Anone on the PLAYERS SIDE of the TABLE, would you not like to be the one to figure things out & EXPLOIT it, while the uninformed continue to donate to the CASINO?
Quote: eagleeye2Recall that I have stated that Ample Evidence exists that Casino's are UNAWARE, that they are employing Unbalanced Dice.
So, are you now stating that #3 is not one of the potential answers?
The casinos are using unbalanced dice, but they don't know it, but the reason they switch dice after a hot roll is because they are superstitious or suspect the dice have been "changed" or "modified"?
To be clear, you are not accusing the casinos of intentionally using unfair dice?
Quote: djatcOne thing ive enjoyed about gambling is all the conspiracy theories and systems.
Trouble in Casino Land, Spells Tighter Playing Constraints.
Just Out ~ Harry Reed renews his Push with a Bill to Ban ALL ON-LINE
Gambling because Las Vegas & other Land Based Casino's are loosing
their Profit Margins!
Yes, you will need to take advantage of every GAP in Casino Armor!
Quote: ontariodealer1. never seen it
2. absolutely zero
The above answers direct from the expert in that field!
eagleeyye2
Quote: eagleeye2
ontariodealer,
That was one of my 3 optional reasons forf a Casino change dice.
I ask you from your experience:
1) What % of the time does the Casino Find they have been Cheated with the DICE they pulled from play?
2) Have you ever seen a Casino put DICE they have pulled back in play, & if so approximately what % of the time?
eagleeye2
Quote: ontariodealer
1. never seen it
2. absolutely zero
eagleeye2
Going way back to my #1 Post, My Stated Objective was to Uncover the Mystery Behind "Unbalanced Dice"!
Yah, Yah, the pundits on this thread Po~Po the very concept, of unbalanced DICE, yet:
A) The Table in My #1 Posting, Lays out Extensive Physical Data on the following DICE:
B) (3) Sleeves of (5), Casino Quality, Clear, 3/4 Inch, Acetate Dice, which were Purchased NEW by me:
C) These Dice were purported to come from (3) suppliers, unknown as to how many manufacturers:
D) All Dice were Purchased over the Internet @ Modest Prices, No $49 / Sleeve Dice were Included
E) To maintain authenticity, I Purchased three separate Colors of Dice, one from each supplier, & Numbered
them 1 to 5, with a thin Sharpie Pen.
Summarizing the Results of my Testing:
1) One Die from each purchase, was Spin Tested on a Caliper, with "Free Spin" & found to be In Balance.
Since my original Posting, all the rest of the Dice were Spin Tested, on a Caliper, with "Free Spin" & found
to be In Balance, to my Satisfaction.
2) All Die Physical Measurements, Dimensions, Weight, etc. were judged to be very controlled, within each
sleeve, from the (3) purchases that I made.
3) The # 1 & #3 (my random selection) of Red Die were thrown on my Practice Table, (since my original posting)
& judged to exhibit normal variability for thrown dice.
Now, comes the $64,000 Question, i.e. this link documents Unbalance in Dice, Reported to be in use by most of the Casino's in Las Vegas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be
This video Verifies Dice Unbalance, Via Dice Caliper, & documents "Free Spin" & roll back, both of which help
verify Low Friction Between Die & Caliper, thereby legitimizing the test.
Now comes the "MYSTERY of DICE UNBALANCE", Yes, the very SUBJECT of my ORIGINAL POSTING, i.e. cheap Dice have been found to be Balanced on a Caliper, whereas more Expensive Dice As Utilized by most Casino's' in Las Vegas have been found to be unbalanced.
At this point, I have no way of establishing the Degree of this unbalance, nor it's effect on a Dice Throw in a Casino, however UNBALANCE is there!
One Point to be reviewed is the Thickness of the PiP's. I measured an average of 0.030 Inches, the Video looks
to have PiP's of significantly greater thickness. Can someone with one of Heavy's 15XX Die measure the Pip thickness & report it here?
Yes, the Mystery of Unbalanced Dice Rolls On!
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2
At this point, I have no way of establishing the Degree of this unbalance, nor it's effect on a Dice Throw in a Casino, however UNBALANCE is there!
I think all this would take is to actually throw the dice you have and record the results for a large sample size. Maybe I am misunderstanding but from the sounds of it you have measured the dice so I am thinking you have the actual physical dice in your possession. If that is the case and you have found them to be unbalanced then roll them bones! Once you have a large enough sample of dice rolling results then the outcome can be analyzed to see if the unbalance is large enough to alter the expected results.
If I am wrong then please forgive my misunderstanding. Hey math members, would this be the proper way to identify the amount of influence that unbalance would exert?
Quote: waasnodayI think all this would take is to actually throw the dice you have and record the results for a large sample size. Maybe I am misunderstanding but from the sounds of it you have measured the dice so I am thinking you have the actual physical dice in your possession. If that is the case and you have found them to be unbalanced then roll them bones! Once you have a large enough sample of dice rolling results then the outcome can be analyzed to see if the unbalance is large enough to alter the expected results.
If I am wrong then please forgive my misunderstanding. Hey math members, would this be the proper way to identify the amount of influence that unbalance would exert?
You're not wrong, but eagleeye isn't interested. We've covered it all already. There is no reason to believe he's falsified his findings, no reason to believe that casinos aren't using dice that are biased to some degree. I am confident he has identified unbalanced die, and am confident said die exist in an active game right now.
But, as even you have realized, there is some testing that needs be done to, as you said, "identify the amount of influence that unbalance would exert". And yes, rolling them bones is the proper way to test it. It's actually a really easy process...
1 - Get a series of dice for testing. One should be dead balanced, then other sets unbalanced incrementally. He has shown the ability to unbalance a die to a very fine degree, like hundredths of a gram.
2 - Start rolling and recording. I'm not a "math guy" so don't know what number to shoot for, but the more you shoot, the more accurate the results. 500 is better than 0, but 2,000 (to me) is when you start to really shed off the possibility of luck playing a part. An actual math guy could give you a better answer, and we happen to have a surplus here.
3 - View the results to determine at what point unbalance starts to have a noticeable effect, where "noticeable" is defined as "able to be discovered within the life of a die in play".
4 - Wherever that point is, look at the unbalance needed and ask yourself if it's reasonable that a die unbalanced to that level would make it into play.
5 - If you answer "yes" to #4, then you need to check sticks to see if the unbalance present in a die uniformly exists in the others in that same stick.
If you do 1-3 and answer "yes" to #4 and confirm #5, THEN you have a scenario where an advantage is possible and can start working on a way to ***~~~UNRAVEL THE UNBALANCED DIE MYSTERY~~~***. Unfortunately, eagleeye prefers to bloviate and perpetuate the mystery instead of attempting to solve it.
It's actually not a bad thread or idea, and I am considering taking it on as a winter project, if for no other reason to put some conspiracy busting facts into the concept and hopefully quell the madness. But until I do, or someone else steps to the plate to do so, you'll not find much substance here.
Quote: Face2 - Start rolling and recording. I'm not a "math guy" so don't know what number to shoot for, but the more you shoot, the more accurate the results. 500 is better than 0, but 2,000 (to me) is when you start to really shed off the possibility of luck playing a part. An actual math guy could give you a better answer, and we happen to have a surplus here.
3 - View the results to determine at what point unbalance starts to have a noticeable effect, where "noticeable" is defined as "able to be discovered within the life of a die in play".
Part of the problem is that dice exhibit a macro version of the uncertainty principle. The more you play with them, the more unbalanced they become. 2000 rolls is twice the rolls a pair of dice would get during a whole day of play, assuming the casino only switched dice once per day (5 dice in a stick, not just 2, etc.) Corners and edges of dice don't wear evenly, etc. So I'd be concerned that by the time the dice had been rolled enough to be statistically significant, you'd no longer be measuring the same balance that you started with anyway.
Quote: waasnodayI think all this would take is to actually throw the dice you have and record the results for a large sample size. Maybe I am misunderstanding but from the sounds of it you have measured the dice so I am thinking you have the actual physical dice in your possession. If that is the case and you have found them to be unbalanced then roll them bones! Once you have a large enough sample of dice rolling results then the outcome can be analyzed to see if the unbalance is large enough to alter the expected results.
If I am wrong then please forgive my misunderstanding. Hey math members, would this be the proper way to identify the amount of influence that unbalance would exert?
Waasnoday,
I had hoped to do much as you & Face suggest, however, as I mentioned, I Purchased Three Sleeves of Dice, Measured, Weighed, Spin Tested, (Data in Table in my #1 Post on this thread) etc. only to find all 15 to be classified "IN BALANCE" on my Caliper, & to be manufactured under good manufacturing practices based upon minimal variation in dimension & weight between sleeves of the same dice.
I have thrown Red Die #1 & #3 on my Practice Table & judged them to exhibit normal variability based upon the distribution of 7's on those throws, as listed below.
Distribution of 7's was as Follows:
4 ~ 3's 25 Throws ~ 38.5%
5 ~ 2's 22 Throws ~ 33.8 %
6 ~ 1's 18 Throws ~ 27.47%
The above 7's were obtained over the course of throws, that it took to obtain the 65 7's distribution of which is
shown above.
Unbalance shown in the Video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSx7aVMKCOQ&feature=youtu.be )
Indicates the likelihood of an abnormal # of 6 ~ 1's, would appear on actual Dice Throws; this did NOT
However occur on the Dice I evaluated.
I do not have the Dice used in the Video, and do not know if they are currently available, however, they
are reported to be the very same Dice used in the Majority of the Casino's in Las Vegas. and have been Verified UNBALANCED.
eagleeye2
I totally agree with your input & have verified much of your thought expressed above.
I am in possession of cancelled Casino Dice, that are many years old. Unfortunately I cannot establish if they are Balanced Currently, as they will "NOT SPIN FREELY" in the Caliper, (Necessary to Verify Balance) mainly die to distortion of the corners from usage, etc. prior to being pulled from play.
Ability to Verify Balance can thus only occur, on New or relatively undamaged dice.
The One Verified Example of Dice Unbalance (Documented in the Video) shows Heavy 6 Faces! Also, reports of an abnormal # of 6 ~ 1, 7 Outs in real Casino Play would appear to be correlated to Dice Unbalance Favoring Heavy 6's.
To this End, if all serious Craps Players keep an eye out for the above & a General Observation of Marked 1~1's Vs 6~6's, when Playing on a Table With Small, Tall & ALL & then REPORT your findings here, we may have a SHOT at evaluating the Unbalance observed.
eagleeye2
Quote: eagleeye2MathExtremist,
I totally agree with your input & have verified much of your thought expressed above.
I am in possession of cancelled Casino Dice, that are many years old. Unfortunately I cannot establish if they are Balanced Currently, as they will "NOT SPIN FREELY" in the Caliper, (Necessary to Verify Balance) mainly die to distortion of the corners from usage, etc. prior to being pulled from play.
Ability to Verify Balance can thus only occur, on New or relatively undamaged dice.
The One Verified Example of Dice Unbalance (Documented in the Video) shows Heavy 6 Faces! Also, reports of an abnormal # of 6 ~ 1, 7 Outs in real Casino Play would appear to be correlated to Dice Unbalance Favoring Heavy 6's.
To this End, if all serious Craps Players keep an eye out for the above & a General Observation of Marked 1~1's Vs 6~6's, when Playing on a Table With Small, Tall & ALL & then REPORT your findings here, we may have a SHOT at evaluating the Unbalance observed.
eagleeye2
Additive to the above is a Re-Cap of my last Casino Craps Outing, as follows:
""Yes, real world Dice Shooting in a Casino appears to Cancel Out Virtually Every Nay~Swayer's thought rebuttal.""
Here is my latest Personal experience relative to the above & the concept of "" ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
MathExtremist,
You may well be on to something & it may indicate that only a very small Die Unbalance can result in Altering the Numerical Output of a set if dice, thrown on a CRAPS Table.
Yesterday & today I Played Craps at a Casino I trust very well. Thinking about your Post, however brings up some strange coincidences, as follows:
This Casino Offers Small, Tall & All Betting, which I Love to Play on what look to be good shooters.
1) I personally made two Small Bets & missed three Tall Bets, for lack of only a 12. One of them would have given me the $1,210 for a $5 Across Bet, which I have yet to hit!
2) I saw several other Small Bets Made, But Not a Single TALL Bet, rather Strange & as I recall the 12 & 2 are both 36 to one odds, yet the 2 was hit 4 times during my play time potential, with ZERO 12's Hits on Tall potentials.
3) While I prefer to stick to 6's & 8's, pressing them on a continuing roll, I generally avoid the 4 & 10. This morning I seemed to hit an abnormal # of Hard 4's, & began betting it, which pad off a bit!
Coincidences, or Unbalanced Dice in Play, I am beginning to wonder???
NOTE: All other CRAPS Players, Please review your recent Craps experience, especially as it relates to SMALL ~ TALL ~ ALL betting, as the SMALL ~ TALL ~ ALL Bet; approximately quantifies the ratio of 1,1 Throws to 6,6 Throws over the course of a SMALL ~ TALL ~ ALL Bet Craps Throw.
Reporting your findings here, may Clinch the Effects of Unbalanced Dice Despite the Nay~Swayer's on the thread!
eagleeye2
For my part anyway, I think the idea that all sets of dice get to casino and are perfect is folly....
Now having said that, so what. I have seen situations where I felt for sure this is not right, like
one night last year in Bowler where we had something like 25 of 27 7;s were 6/1 1/6. and you
saw lots of craps numbers. I told the pit boss later that they had a problem and he said after they were
done that night he checked the dice.... he would not say what he found, he said he just had no comment,
which is a confirmation of sorts.
I have seen a couple of other situations, but in truth this could just be variance, and also so what, unless
there is something you can do to take advantage of that, it really means nothing. Some posters think well
every time you see bad dice all you have to do is play the dont's.......that is worse than having no
opinion all.
In a class I took they showed what were indicated to be actual casino dice, and they showed how they were
out of balance. This year in vegas I watched a large casino checking the dice, She measured and spun a number
of different sets of dice and then put them back in the wrapper. She never tried to see if they were in
balance. I was at a card table a little ways away and watched the entire thing, I got up and asked her like
I had never played the game, what was she doing.... she said we have to balance the dice before they
are used to make sure they are good dice... so much for casino control.
There is only one time I can recall where I saw something I felt was out of the ordinary and I changed
my betting pattern just for that and I did well, where others did not , and I dont find I can adjust my
throw or set enough to take advantage of what looks like bad dice ,i have heard some others say they can.... I cant.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterEagleeye2
For my part anyway, I think the idea that all sets of dice get to casino and are perfect is folly....
Now having said that, so what. I have seen situations where I felt for sure this is not right, like
one night last year in Bowler where we had something like 25 of 27 7;s were 6/1 1/6. and you
saw lots of craps numbers. I told the pit boss later that they had a problem and he said after they were
done that night he checked the dice.... he would not say what he found, he said he just had no comment,
which is a confirmation of sorts.
I have seen a couple of other situations, but in truth this could just be variance, and also so what, unless
there is something you can do to take advantage of that, it really means nothing. Some posters think well
every time you see bad dice all you have to do is play the dont's.......that is worse than having no
opinion all.
In a class I took they showed what were indicated to be actual casino dice, and they showed how they were
out of balance. This year in vegas I watched a large casino checking the dice, She measured and spun a number
of different sets of dice and then put them back in the wrapper. She never tried to see if they were in
balance. I was at a card table a little ways away and watched the entire thing, I got up and asked her like
I had never played the game, what was she doing.... she said we have to balance the dice before they
are used to make sure they are good dice... so much for casino control.
There is only one time I can recall where I saw something I felt was out of the ordinary and I changed
my betting pattern just for that and I did well, where others did not , and I dont find I can adjust my
throw or set enough to take advantage of what looks like bad dice ,i have heard some others say they can.... I cant.
dicesetter
dicesetter,
Thanks for your valued comments, I have several comments or questions, in order of the comments in your post:
A) 25 of 27 7's were of the 6~1 Nature.
Comment: This would appear to correlate with the Dice Balancer video, Where the #6 Faces are HEAVIER than
the other Faces
Shooting the First of the three Dice Sleeves I Purchased, which were Verified to be BALANCED, I got the following Distribution: of 7's:
4 ~ 3's 25 Throws ~ 38.5%
5 ~ 2's 22 Throws ~ 33.8 %
6 ~ 1's 18 Throws ~ 27.47%
Something on the order of the above distribution percentages, would be expected from FAIR DICE.
B) Variance
Comment: Yes, variance is ever present, our job is to establish a means to draw conclusions, in spite of the
Variance That is Ever Present.
C) Observed the Casino Checking the dice
Question: Did the Casino put the Dice being checked on a Balancing Caliper & Obtain a "FREE SPIN"
of the Dice?
Or Did the Casino Person Smply Spin them in their Fingers, to Verify that all 6 Numbers appeared on the Dice?
D) Once, I saw something I felt was out of the ordinary
Question: Just what did you see that motivated you to change your dice set?
Comment: Hopefully, we can somehow Identify Dice Unbalance & Either Change How we BET, or EXIT
that GAME, for more FAIR Playing Conditions at another establishment.
eagleeye2
When the lady checked the dice she measured them and spun them... But the only real way to see balance is where
they end up. If you spin them slightly and then end up at a point or faster and they end up at the same point or if they
balance and fall back, some point is to heavy. She never did that.
When you see certain grouping all the time... such as 3/4 4/3 you will see more 6 &8 and hard 6 & hard 8 than normal, to
me that is as bad as all 6/1 1/6... the time I made good money we had that, very heavy to the 8 so I hoped the 8 and hard 8 for
quite a time and did well.
Other times when it is heavy to 6/1 1/6 and craps number there is a betting mode you can use.... I cant give you that because I
got it from a friend.
I am not an expect on this, but I know several of what I consider the best players in the country, they to a man think the dice
are getting worse..
As fair as telling fair dice.. I don't think it is the number of 7's you see, but the particular one. and then its pairing with other
numbers like high craps numbers or 6 & 8 or in the case of 5/2 where the pairing is 5 & 9.
dicesetter
name the expertsQuote: dicesitterI am not an expect on this, but I know several <snip>
and are those experts self-proclaimed experts?
==============================
Oh oh
quickly change the subject...
Looks like you (dicesitter) may have lost your bet with me on the 154 craps hand record will be broken
looks like it happened in a Nevada casino, i do not know exactly which one, on Apriil 2nd this year
163 or 164 rolls
i guess the players or the casino does not know the exact count
but the single Mom (from Utah is the story) that did this is now in hiding because she was not supposed to be in a casino gambling!
that is still so funny
i am waiting to see some pics from that event!
me husband claims he was there
ok
dice balance, yuk
i say
get rid of dice at all craps tables in the universe
cards work just fine in CA
cards and dice are fun for some too at the same time
roll the dice, turn over the cards
next up
Quote: mustangsallyname the experts
and are those experts self-proclaimed experts?
There's nothing wrong with being a self-proclaimed expert if other people agree with you. :)
Quote: Bohemianeagleeye2, I play with Harley and I know you are not Harley.
I agree with your unbalanced dice findings. The reason why most dealers do not know there are unbalanced dice in play is because it is above their pay scale.
Many recreational craps players or weekend players do not understand either, only craps players that play often enough to see both fair dice and unbalanced dice in play.
Below is a chart from page 15 of the book "How to Control Fair Dice" showing how dice can be unbalanced in 26 different combinations -- how do we know which imbalance we are playing with today compared to tomorrow.
If you worked in Casino Risk Management, you would know exactly which dice combination gave you the best profit margin compared to balanced dice. Also, to prevent customers from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias. Why would casinos ever need to change dice so often if all dice were created equal ?! According to the Nevada Gaming Commission, dice are so much more durable now that they can be used for more than 24 hours without showing discernible wear.
Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!
The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
deicesetter,
bohemian, posted the above way back, indicating there could be 26 Different ways to Load a DICE, that adds some massive complexity that the Casino's would LOVE to EMPLOY in their Efforts to Increase theit Profit Margins!
Thanks for the Candid Reply tgo my questions.
eagleeye2
Quote: mustangsallyname the experts
and are those experts self-proclaimed experts?
==============================
Oh oh
quickly change the subject...
Looks like you (dicesitter) may have lost your bet with me on the 154 craps hand record will be broken
looks like it happened in a Nevada casino, i do not know exactly which one, on Apriil 2nd this year
163 or 164 rolls
i guess the players or the casino does not know the exact count
but the single Mom (from Utah is the story) that did this is now in hiding because she was not supposed to be in a casino gambling!
that is still so funny
i am waiting to see some pics from that event!
me husband claims he was there
ok
dice balance, yuk
i say
get rid of dice at all craps tables in the universe
cards work just fine in CA
cards and dice are fun for some too at the same time
roll the dice, turn over the cards
next up
mustangsally,
Your post places you in the Casual Craps Player, category!
eagleeye2
