Across betting

100Xodds



I guess i need to explain something, when i speak of doing a certain thing, i dont mean
some one should do what i do...... i am not good enough to tell anyone what to do...

I have certain sets i use and each should produce certain numbers more than other
numbers, and a good many times they do. so when i say dont press a 6 or 8 that
would be because i am using a set that produces more outside numbers. conversely
when i use the 3v set that is designed for 6,8,4, if it works
as it should i certainly would press the 6 & 8 or 4.

Having said that, even on a random guy i would not press a 6 or 8 unless i have made money
off it. Last night was an example, a guy had a nice roll.. 6 tens and 4 -4 and a few 9'
and a couple 6 & 8's when the hand ended, most had all their money on the 6 & 8. I had mine
on the 4 & 10.

Dicesetter

If only playing the 5 and 9 to quarters start with 15 on each that way 1st hit both are pressed to max with dollar change. From here on out its 35 each hit. Or you can gamble and full press the number hit to 36 which will pay you 50.. I'll normally start at 54 inside and one ive made profit ill regress to table minimum across

I'll probably stick with a PL & a PB 6 or 8 bet. The Point 7-outs rule. Is it easier to hit 10 in a row PL wins or 10 in a row PB 6 or 8 wins?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am guilty of "across betting" and always did that (until I adopted my system of betting fire bet + passline without odds).

As an "across bettor" I can tell you that even playing with 52/54 across or 130/135 across I left a table with a net win of $5,000 or more only three times in my life (pre fire bet days).

I had a dream the last time I played that I wish I had the ability to "see" which number would be rolled next so I could shift my bankroll from number to number for each throw.

The problem with "across betting" is that you can lose all of those bets at once, but you can only win one at a time.

Craps sucks. Why do we play it? LOL
link to original post

Then lay all the numbers across, which is a decent bet when commission is collected on win only and you bet the right amounts . As long as you keep rebetting numbers that are rolled before the 7, you are guaranteed to win all six numbers at once when the 7 is rolled

Over the long run, your loss from buying a number will be exactly the same as laying it, assuming your lay amount is the potential win amount of the buy

Buying the 4/10 for $36 or laying it for $72 carries an edge under 1%. Buying the 6/8 for $35 or laying for $42 has an edge of 1.3%

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am guilty of "across betting" and always did that (until I adopted my system of betting fire bet + passline without odds).

As an "across bettor" I can tell you that even playing with 52/54 across or 130/135 across I left a table with a net win of $5,000 or more only three times in my life (pre fire bet days).

I had a dream the last time I played that I wish I had the ability to "see" which number would be rolled next so I could shift my bankroll from number to number for each throw.

The problem with "across betting" is that you can lose all of those bets at once, but you can only win one at a time.

Craps sucks. Why do we play it? LOL
link to original post

Then lay all the numbers across, which is a decent bet when commission is collected on win only and you bet the right amounts . As long as you keep rebetting numbers that are rolled before the 7, you are guaranteed to win all six numbers at once when the 7 is rolled

Over the long run, your loss from buying a number will be exactly the same as laying it, assuming your lay amount is the potential win amount of the buy

Buying the 4/10 for $36 or laying it for $72 carries an edge under 1%. Buying the 6/8 for $35 or laying for $42 has an edge of 1.3%
link to original post

That post of mine was from about NINE YEARS AGO.

I only know of one casino that now offers the Firebet and that's Rampart and I dont play there.

Most if not all casinos I play at offer Bonus Craps or some name for All Tall Small.

I've been betting across for many years now.

I find that I do better making smaller bets on all the numbers than bigger bets on one, two or three numbers.

If I knew what number I would hit I'd concentrate my action on those few numbers, but I don't know what numbers I'm going to throw. I just want to avoid the 7.

Those of you who bet passline with max odds or even a two point or three point molly must know which numbers the dice will show. I don't. So I have to use a shotgun approach and spread out my bets.

Here's a real world example.

Yesterday I'm at a $10 table and the point is 6. I bet $52 across. The player next to me had a $10 pass with $50 odds.

The shooter rolled about 8 numbers before 7-out. He did not make the point. Luckily for me he rolled two 4s and one 10 which paid $19 each.

I know, I know. His $50 odds on the 6 had no house advantage.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am guilty of "across betting" and always did that (until I adopted my system of betting fire bet + passline without odds).

As an "across bettor" I can tell you that even playing with 52/54 across or 130/135 across I left a table with a net win of $5,000 or more only three times in my life (pre fire bet days).

I had a dream the last time I played that I wish I had the ability to "see" which number would be rolled next so I could shift my bankroll from number to number for each throw.

The problem with "across betting" is that you can lose all of those bets at once, but you can only win one at a time.

Craps sucks. Why do we play it? LOL
link to original post

Then lay all the numbers across, which is a decent bet when commission is collected on win only and you bet the right amounts . As long as you keep rebetting numbers that are rolled before the 7, you are guaranteed to win all six numbers at once when the 7 is rolled

Over the long run, your loss from buying a number will be exactly the same as laying it, assuming your lay amount is the potential win amount of the buy

Buying the 4/10 for $36 or laying it for $72 carries an edge under 1%. Buying the 6/8 for $35 or laying for $42 has an edge of 1.3%
link to original post

That post of mine was from about NINE YEARS AGO.

I only know of one casino that now offers the Firebet and that's Rampart and I dont play there.

Most if not all casinos I play at offer Bonus Craps or some name for All Tall Small.

I've been betting across for many years now.

I find that I do better making smaller bets on all the numbers than bigger bets on one, two or three numbers.

If I knew what number I would hit I'd concentrate my action on those few numbers, but I don't know what numbers I'm going to throw. I just want to avoid the 7.

Those of you who bet passline with max odds or even a two point or three point molly must know which numbers the dice will show. I don't. So I have to use a shotgun approach and spread out my bets.

Here's a real world example.

Yesterday I'm at a $10 table and the point is 6. I bet $52 across. The player next to me had a $10 pass with $50 odds.

The shooter rolled about 8 numbers before 7-out. He did not make the point. Luckily for me he rolled two 4s and one 10 which paid $19 each.

I know, I know. His $50 odds on the 6 had no house advantage.
link to original post

Did you actually post a SINGLE EXAMPLE of when your craps bet beat someone else’s craps bet to imply because this specific occurrence happened the way you bet is superior to the way the other guy bet? Shall I mention the one time I hit 17 and got a 4 to imply hitting 17 is better than standing???

Alan, please stop posting on a math based forum if you have no idea what math based even means….

(You are still my hero for getting married at a craps table!!!)

Quote: AlanMendelson

[
If I knew what number I would hit I'd concentrate my action on those few numbers, but I don't know what numbers I'm going to throw. I just want to avoid the 7.

Those of you who bet passline with max odds or even a two point or three point molly must know which numbers the dice will show. I don't.

Please elaborate. How would PL+ max odds bettors know which numbers the dice will show?

How do users make their own threads?

Quote: SOOPOO

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am guilty of "across betting" and always did that (until I adopted my system of betting fire bet + passline without odds).

As an "across bettor" I can tell you that even playing with 52/54 across or 130/135 across I left a table with a net win of $5,000 or more only three times in my life (pre fire bet days).

I had a dream the last time I played that I wish I had the ability to "see" which number would be rolled next so I could shift my bankroll from number to number for each throw.

The problem with "across betting" is that you can lose all of those bets at once, but you can only win one at a time.

Craps sucks. Why do we play it? LOL
link to original post

Then lay all the numbers across, which is a decent bet when commission is collected on win only and you bet the right amounts . As long as you keep rebetting numbers that are rolled before the 7, you are guaranteed to win all six numbers at once when the 7 is rolled

Over the long run, your loss from buying a number will be exactly the same as laying it, assuming your lay amount is the potential win amount of the buy

Buying the 4/10 for $36 or laying it for $72 carries an edge under 1%. Buying the 6/8 for $35 or laying for $42 has an edge of 1.3%
link to original post

That post of mine was from about NINE YEARS AGO.

I only know of one casino that now offers the Firebet and that's Rampart and I dont play there.

Most if not all casinos I play at offer Bonus Craps or some name for All Tall Small.

I've been betting across for many years now.

I find that I do better making smaller bets on all the numbers than bigger bets on one, two or three numbers.

If I knew what number I would hit I'd concentrate my action on those few numbers, but I don't know what numbers I'm going to throw. I just want to avoid the 7.

Those of you who bet passline with max odds or even a two point or three point molly must know which numbers the dice will show. I don't. So I have to use a shotgun approach and spread out my bets.

Here's a real world example.

Yesterday I'm at a $10 table and the point is 6. I bet $52 across. The player next to me had a $10 pass with $50 odds.

The shooter rolled about 8 numbers before 7-out. He did not make the point. Luckily for me he rolled two 4s and one 10 which paid $19 each.

I know, I know. His $50 odds on the 6 had no house advantage.
link to original post

Did you actually post a SINGLE EXAMPLE of when your craps bet beat someone else’s craps bet to imply because this specific occurrence happened the way you bet is superior to the way the other guy bet? Shall I mention the one time I hit 17 and got a 4 to imply hitting 17 is better than standing???

Alan, please stop posting on a math based forum if you have no idea what math based even means….

(You are still my hero for getting married at a craps table!!!)
link to original post

Why do you post about blackjack when the discussion is about craps?

There is an economic utility diversifying your bet money. Consider the math.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

[
If I knew what number I would hit I'd concentrate my action on those few numbers, but I don't know what numbers I'm going to throw. I just want to avoid the 7.

Those of you who bet passline with max odds or even a two point or three point molly must know which numbers the dice will show. I don't.

Please elaborate. How would PL+ max odds bettors know which numbers the dice will show?
link to original post

They dont know.

Quote: NewWorldOrder

How do users make their own threads?
link to original post

Welcome to the forum! Read the forum rules here: WOV Forum Rules

New forum members need to wait about 10 days before the site will allow them to make their own threads. This requirement is a countermeasure against spammers. So, please be patient.

Quote: bdc42

Quote: Beethoven9th

The point is that correcting them isn't for their benefit. It's for the benefit of the person they're giving "advice" to.

the guy is playing Craps, he isn't going to win. the best he can do is minimize the edge, but in the long run we get it all. that isn't exactly my point, you made the comment about the house edge is always the same... and I pointed out that by posting your comment was not necessary, we all know that he cannot overcome the edge.
link to original post

I read all of the craps posts, the back and forth, the "advice," the "systems," the anecdotal play, etc. and nowhere is there a definition of "winning." The general consensus is everyone does lose overall at the tables, yet no one can or will define winning. Winning is an illusion because "the long term/run" (undefinable and beyond vague) will overtake one's play no matter what because the HE/HA and variance will stifle any and all who play the game. I personally do not believe those sentiments. I believe and have personal knowledge that consistent winning exists at the game of craps.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

I personally do not believe those sentiments. I believe and have personal knowledge that consistent winning exists at the game of craps.

tuttigym
link to original post

You are the casino’s favorite type of player…their target market. No matter how much you lose, no matter what the math guarantees, you still believe you can win.

Math is not a belief system

Quote: Ace2

Quote: tuttigym

I personally do not believe those sentiments. I believe and have personal knowledge that consistent winning exists at the game of craps.

tuttigym
link to original post

You are the casino’s favorite type of player…their target market. No matter how much you lose, no matter what the math guarantees, you still believe you can win.

Math is not a belief system
link to original post

I believe your "math" guarantees you lose. It is your religion/belief system. Your feet are planted in cement like all the other "establishment"/system players. Your only oasis from losing is the "hot shooter." You are no different than Mr. Mendelson, who one year got W2G's totaling $1m+ and now talks about his $10 free play as he ambles to his favorite casino to cash in and report a $6+ profit. You cannot define winning because it just doesn't happen for you even with 1/2% HE wagers which have given you "crushing defeats or loses" through the years. Very sad.

Actually, Ace2, YOU are the casino's target market, so continue on down that path and prove yourself right.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Ace2

Quote: tuttigym

I personally do not believe those sentiments. I believe and have personal knowledge that consistent winning exists at the game of craps.

tuttigym
link to original post

You are the casino’s favorite type of player…their target market. No matter how much you lose, no matter what the math guarantees, you still believe you can win.

Math is not a belief system
link to original post

I believe your "math" guarantees you lose. It is your religion/belief system. Your feet are planted in cement like all the other "establishment"/system players. Your only oasis from losing is the "hot shooter." You are no different than Mr. Mendelson, who one year got W2G's totaling $1m+ and now talks about his $10 free play as he ambles to his favorite casino to cash in and report a $6+ profit. You cannot define winning because it just doesn't happen for you even with 1/2% HE wagers which have given you "crushing defeats or loses" through the years. Very sad.

Actually, Ace2, YOU are the casino's target market, so continue on down that path and prove yourself right.

tuttigym
link to original post

Oh I missed Saturdays free play report. It was $10. But I kept winning and after some quads at 25-cents I moved up to a $1 game and hit a $4k royal.

I'd be happy to send Wizard a photo of the royal and the W2G.

I think that <political screed deleted by author> has resulted in the rise of "my truth". Math is grounded in postulates, proofs, and yes, waaay deep down, assumptions, which cannot be proven, only demonstrated. Despite thousands of years of trying, the assumptions that underlie math, and thus, everything that relies on it like engineering, aerodynamics, and power distribution, to name just a minute fraction, have stood the test of time and can be relied upon utterly. Probability and statistics are two areas where math reigns supreme, whether we want it to or not.

Look, I'm just as subject to The Gambler's Fallacy as the next guy. That belief that "the 12 has gotta hit, I haven's seen one in an hour", is just one example of this superstition. The reality is The Law of Large Numbers (what most of us call The Law of Averages) is indeed based on large numbers: billions of rolls, and not merely the 20 minute roll of someone.

And therein lies the ability to define what constitutes 'winning'. To me, it means to consistently walk away from the table with more money that you bought in for. Not every session has to be a winner, but overall, ending up ahead in the wallet is what constitutes winning. To win, you have to be attuned to the variance in the throws. "Huh. Lots of 4s coming out. I'll bet the 4 until it seems to stop" is an example of such a strategy.

This is why bankroll control or money management is a part of the gambling experience that must be discussed more. I know that I am quite capable of gambling until the cash is gone. It still happens to me, despite my decades at the tables. So is 'steaming'—hitting the ATM because you know that the game is just about to turn in your favor.

So whether you believe in Ace2's math operations or not, the true target market of every casino is the player who steams, who plays until the wallet is empty, who is fiscally incontinent. The casino doesn't care what their internal belief systems are, it just picks up the cash drop box at 4am and whistles all the way down to the counting room.

The notion of fiscal incontinence brought some much needed levity to my day.

Thank you.

Quote: tuttigym

I believe your "math" guarantees you lose. It is your religion/belief system.

Couldn’t have said it better myself

Notice how “math” is always in “quotes” as if it’s just an “opinion”.

AlanM also usually refers to it as “your math”

Quote: BillHasRetired

I think that <political screed deleted by author> has resulted in the rise of "my truth". Math is grounded in postulates, proofs, and yes, waaay deep down, assumptions, which cannot be proven, only demonstrated. Despite thousands of years of trying, the assumptions that underlie math, and thus, everything that relies on it like engineering, aerodynamics, and power distribution, to name just a minute fraction, have stood the test of time and can be relied upon utterly. Probability and statistics are two areas where math reigns supreme, whether we want it to or not.

Look, I'm just as subject to The Gambler's Fallacy as the next guy. That belief that "the 12 has gotta hit, I haven's seen one in an hour", is just one example of this superstition. The reality is The Law of Large Numbers (what most of us call The Law of Averages) is indeed based on large numbers: billions of rolls, and not merely the 20 minute roll of someone.

And therein lies the ability to define what constitutes 'winning'. To me, it means to consistently walk away from the table with more money that you bought in for. Not every session has to be a winner, but overall, ending up ahead in the wallet is what constitutes winning. To win, you have to be attuned to the variance in the throws. "Huh. Lots of 4s coming out. I'll bet the 4 until it seems to stop" is an example of such a strategy.

This is why bankroll control or money management is a part of the gambling experience that must be discussed more. I know that I am quite capable of gambling until the cash is gone. It still happens to me, despite my decades at the tables. So is 'steaming'—hitting the ATM because you know that the game is just about to turn in your favor.

So whether you believe in Ace2's math operations or not, the true target market of every casino is the player who steams, who plays until the wallet is empty, who is fiscally incontinent. The casino doesn't care what their internal belief systems are, it just picks up the cash drop box at 4am and whistles all the way down to the counting room.
link to original post

that was an interesting post - thanks for that

it refers to gambling in an intelligent way - a good thing

but often walking away as a winner is very different from winning in the long run - which is something that cannot be accomplished without a math advantage

what causes some confusion is there is no clear definition of the long run

but let me try - an example anyway - no one - excluding a possible DI which itself is dubious - is going to beat craps after 10,000 flat bets no matter what they do

progressive betting - the most common systems - cannot help the player in the long run - they can only increase short term variance

many, in craps and elsewhere who claim to be long run winners conveniently forget about their losses

not necessarily in an attempt to deceive - but it's just human nature to believe you are a long run winner even if you've only come close to that - because of only playing the lowest edge bets - and having some short run good fortune

and I'm not saying that describes you - just sayin'


.

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are long term winners at -EV games.

I think it's the amount of the win that will determine if you can be a long term winner.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are long term winners at -EV games.

I think it's the amount of the win that will determine if you can be a long term winner.
link to original post

that is incorrect

the players you are referring to may have made many bets but they were not in the long run

if their chance of winning $1 million was one in 2 million - they would have had to have made billions of bets to get into the long run - and they didn't do that


.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are long term winners at -EV games.

I think it's the amount of the win that will determine if you can be a long term winner.
link to original post

that is incorrect

the players you are referring to may have made many bets but they were not in the long run

if their chance of winning $1 million was one in 2 million - they would have had to have made billions of bets to get into the long run - and they didn't do that


.
link to original post

Do you really think the recent winner of the $400-million++++ lottery drawing had previously bought $400-million++++ of tickets??

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are 𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙨 at -EV games.

I think it's the amount of the win that will determine if you can be a long term winner.
link to original post


Do you really think the recent winner of the $400-million++++ lottery drawing had previously bought $400-million++++ of tickets??
link to original post

link to original post

you called them 𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙨

I thought you were implying that the math was substantially different than in a game like craps

which it is not

if that's now what you meant - I apologize



.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are 𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙨 at -EV games.

I think it's the amount of the win that will determine if you can be a long term winner.
link to original post


Do you really think the recent winner of the $400-million++++ lottery drawing had previously bought $400-million++++ of tickets??
link to original post

link to original post

you called them 𝙡𝙤𝙣𝙜 𝙩𝙚𝙧𝙢 𝙬𝙞𝙣𝙣𝙚𝙧𝙨

I thought you were implying that the math was substantially different than in a game like craps

which it is not

if that's now what you meant - I apologize



.
link to original post

Thank you.

The problem with winning most casino games is that the payoffs are not big enough to overcome the long term grind of the house edge.

To be a long term winner in a casino you'd have to win Megabucks or a Wheel of Fortune progressive -- something in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars range.

I recall something that a craps dealer once said to a player. The player said they were down $25k on their trip and they were hoping to get even with a new buy-in.

The player threw some cash on the table. Then as the dealer was booking the player's bets -- something like $81 across -- the dealer said "you'll have to bet bigger than this to get even."

Quote: BilHasRetired

And therein lies the ability to define what constitutes 'winning'. To me, it means to consistently walk away from the table with more money that you bought in for. Not every session has to be a winner, but overall, ending up ahead in the wallet is what constitutes winning. To win, you have to be attuned to the variance in the throws. "Huh. Lots of 4s coming out. I'll bet the 4 until it seems to stop" is an example of such a strategy.

This is why bankroll control or money management is a part of the gambling experience that must be discussed more. I know that I am quite capable of gambling until the cash is gone. It still happens to me, despite my decades at the tables. So is 'steaming'—hitting the ATM because you know that the game is just about to turn in your favor.

For me, that was a great definition of "winning." The essence, though, is discipline. In wagering, game/session focus, attitude, temperament, and enjoying the game, become part and parcel of the winning experience. As in the second paragraph above, money management cannot be overemphasized enough. Maintaining level emotions especially when your game is faltering, i.e., trying to catch up or recoup, is absolutely necessary.

Thank you BHR for the very thoughtful post. well done.

tuttigym

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are long term winners at -EV games.
link to original post

I’d estimate less than 1 in 10,000 regular lottery players are long term winners. You’d have to hit one the remote top tier prizes. You consider that plenty?

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AlanMendelson

I'm sure there are plenty of lottery and megajackpot winners who are long term winners at -EV games.
link to original post

I’d estimate less than 1 in 10,000 regular lottery players are long term winners. You’d have to hit one the remote top tier prizes. You consider that plenty?
link to original post

I was referring to megajackpot winners. Not those who win $5 on a scratcher.

Sorry I didnt make that clear for you.