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tupp
tupp
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March 27th, 2013 at 11:55:03 PM permalink
Quote: dicesitter

Alan has some very good points.
[snip]
Many random throwers go through a long ritual before the roll.


Actually, if you reread the exchange, that was my point, not Alan's.

No DI will take 30 seconds to shoot (unless some event/problem prevents him/her from shooting right away). The misconception that DIs delay the game is common with those who know very little of craps, but refuse to believe in the possibility of dice influencing. Such a notion is a dead give-away to one's ignorance of the game. It's the finger-snapping, random shooters who perpetrate the "30-second ritual."


Quote: dicesitter

In terms of influence, it has to be math, you have to have good enough records to indicate you have some influence. Without records over time, you cant possibly say you influence anything.


Another point that I (and others) have made, with which Alan might disagree. Alan's past posts seem to denounce the recording throws as useless -- "the records wouldn't hold up in court."
tupp
tupp
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March 27th, 2013 at 11:55:30 PM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Only one "6-1."


What is your point?
thecesspit
thecesspit
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March 28th, 2013 at 2:14:02 AM permalink
Especially as in a forty roll span, expectation is one 6-1 and one 1-6.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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March 28th, 2013 at 2:50:13 AM permalink
Quote: tupp

Another point that I (and others) have made, with which Alan might disagree. Alan's past posts seem to denounce the recording throws as useless -- "the records wouldn't hold up in court."



Let's clarify this: what are the records of the dice throws suppose to show?

Do they show the dice are biased? In that context no, and I believe that's when I made that comment, during that discussion.

Do they show the shooter held a record for consecutive hard-6s? Sure, a record of the throws at a table would do that.

Do they show the shooter had a hand that lasted four and a half hours? Of course records would show that.

Do they show the shooter is a dice influencer or a dice controller? How would records of a shooter at a table show that or prove that? I say that because even random rollers can have long hands and can make multiple passes. And this brings me back to my original statement: if you want to say that Henry XXX is a controlled shooter, have him demonstrate "controlled shots." I have offered some parameters for "controlled shots." And I am wiling to consider other suggestions for how to define a "controlled shot."

But I cannot consider a shot that bounces wildly -- even if it ends up with a desired result -- as a controlled shot UNLESS the shooter can duplicate that wild bouncing and the desired result.

That's my position. Sorry, but I stick with it.
Zcore13
Zcore13
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March 28th, 2013 at 7:18:00 AM permalink
Don't be sorry Alan. That's the position of any sane person.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
dicesitter
dicesitter
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March 28th, 2013 at 7:38:12 AM permalink
Alan


I guess to be honest the question is no longer whether a person can influence the dice
or they cant is why you assume it is not possible.

Smart craps for instance is a well designed tool, would you assume your opinion is a better indicator of
influence????

Would you assume that when a person has his or her records which over thousands of rolls show
a certain advantage is lying??

Now i understand and have seen for years the attacks on the guys that write books or provide
vidoes etc... if their is a profit in it, they must be lying to obtain that profit.. i get that, i also think
it is a very sick way to think. I also also paid for golf lessons and did not get any better, i have hired
a stock broker and lost money....

I would understand completely if you took the classes and did the practice and recorded the numbers
and it did not work for you... but even then.... it did not work for you, !!!!!

I have been involved with dice control now for 6 years... 3.5 years of classes and practice. My shot is
not nearly as controlled as a number of people i have played with...but i am getting there.

I am also 100% honest and i agree with you, you cant say a roll that runs all over the table and gets a
good number is dice control.... its not , i have had a number of long rolls where that has happened, i dont
go home and say wow i have control... i go home and say what the hell was that!!!!

6-1 is an example.... now i understand you will either beleive me or you wont,,that is up to you... but
when i release my dice properly.. that means even, and they hit and go to the back wall i dont get
hardly any 1/6 or 6/1 , far less than 33% which is what normal would be. If my thow is not even
, but that i mean the dice hit the table with a low right or low left bias, and scoot to the side, i get lots
of 1/6/6-1 for greater than 33% because the dice are leaving the forward access and going over side ways.
Ahigh could prove that easily.

The guys i play with that are not dice controllers, one is 73 and the other is 66 tell me that all the time
and they would tell you.... when my dice are correct i wont get a 6-1....

Alan, this dice control stuff is not a pot of gold, this is hard work, and the edge you get is not much, for me it
is 1 6 or 8 more out of 10 rolls....you would hardly notice that, but if you are $30 better on the 6 and 8 that is
$35 . My goal for this when i started was not to make money, i am retired and lucky enough to have a good life
but i have seen people mess it up gambling.... so if there was a way to get good enough to come close to
breaking even and still play, i wanted to try that....

It works for me, i know several other old couples like us that do the same, they are good at this, many of the
women are better than the men, now my wife does not play.. so for us, its me or the nothing.

But we are not in this to sell books, or videos, we are here to play the game we love without losing our
homes.

I am on here to encourage anyone that wants to get better at craps to do that. Now there are a number
of knuckleheads on this site, many that really dont care... but i have had many private emails from some that
do... i hope some people learn to stop giving their money to the casino....

but it is a choice


Dicesitter
Keyser
Keyser
Joined: Apr 16, 2010
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March 28th, 2013 at 8:21:56 AM permalink
Quote:

"When" does dice influence start???



At conception. (Buzzard, I beat you to it. ;))
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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April 10th, 2013 at 3:59:15 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

One time when dice influencing starts is when you get banned from shooting.

This happened to me yesterday at the Gold Coast casino. This is the first time this has happened to me, but it confirmed that they are worried about my shot.

TeddyS was with me. But I was writing stuff down and looking at papers on how to set the dice before my throws, and they told me I couldn't shoot at the Gold Coast for the next 24 hours.

I was getting heat yesterday more than usual. I think it's just because Teddy is so suspicious looking though. Normally I am just laughing it up and there are no worries. But they were criticizing my shot all day at half the places I went to play.

At LVH all my shots were 100% fine, and they criticized me for taking too long. When they did that I sent the dice back to the center and asked the stick Michael, the hispanic stick man who looked like Cheech Marin, "what?" IE: I took more time to have him clarify the "rule" that I have to shoot more quickly.

I told him "I don't know of any rule that I have to play at a certain speed!" It began to turn into an argument, and I quickly sevened out and asked, "are you happier now?"

When it was my turn to shoot next, I told them "it's not fun for me anymore" and Curtis on box snickered. I was 100% serious. I asked out loud "what are you laughing about?" He didn't answer.

These guys act like it's a big joke when you take the game seriously. But if they REALLY weren't worried, they would pretend that they wanted you to win with any legal shot you got. That doesn't happen when you are rolling well at any casino that sweats the money.


They aren't worried about your shot. They know, like any smart casino employees, that your shot is random and over time, they will win their money from you.

What they do care about is keeping the game moving. More rolls = more money in the box. Less rolls = less money exposed to the house edge = less money in the box.

That is the reason for 99% of casino "reaction" to dice setters/would-be dice influencers. By being confrontational or playing dumb with the dealers/box men/etc., you aren't helping yourself out at all. It's their flipping casino. They have no obligation to let you, or anyone else, play any of their games. So if they don't like the way you're shooting, either try to speed it up or just continue on until they tell you to get lost.

Being a jackass isn't going to help your cause, on these boards or in the casino.

I've been relatively supportive of your posts up to this point, because I don't personally believe that dice influence is impossible. I really like the idea of extensive statistical tests against thousands of rolls worth of data, and you have the setup to make that happen. But you just have a really strange attitude, especially toward casino dealers who have been instructed to keep the dice moving. It's just their job, stop being so confrontational.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 10th, 2013 at 4:36:38 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

They aren't worried about your shot. They know, like any smart casino employees, that your shot is random and over time, they will win their money from you.

What they do care about is keeping the game moving. More rolls = more money in the box. Less rolls = less money exposed to the house edge = less money in the box.

That is the reason for 99% of casino "reaction" to dice setters/would-be dice influencers. By being confrontational or playing dumb with the dealers/box men/etc., you aren't helping yourself out at all. It's their flipping casino. They have no obligation to let you, or anyone else, play any of their games. So if they don't like the way you're shooting, either try to speed it up or just continue on until they tell you to get lost.

Being a jackass isn't going to help your cause, on these boards or in the casino.

I've been relatively supportive of your posts up to this point, because I don't personally believe that dice influence is impossible. I really like the idea of extensive statistical tests against thousands of rolls worth of data, and you have the setup to make that happen. But you just have a really strange attitude, especially toward casino dealers who have been instructed to keep the dice moving. It's just their job, stop being so confrontational.



This was not about the dice moving and was only about short rolls.

Sorry you were confused.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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April 10th, 2013 at 4:51:48 PM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

This was not about the dice moving and was only about short rolls.

Sorry you were confused.



Okay...

Quote: Ahigh

But I was writing stuff down and looking at papers on how to set the dice before my throws, and they told me I couldn't shoot at the Gold Coast for the next 24 hours.



Quote: Ahigh

At LVH all my shots were 100% fine, and they criticized me for taking too long. When they did that I sent the dice back to the center and asked the stick Michael, the hispanic stick man who looked like Cheech Marin, "what?" IE: I took more time to have him clarify the "rule" that I have to shoot more quickly.

I told him "I don't know of any rule that I have to play at a certain speed!" It began to turn into an argument, and I quickly sevened out and asked, "are you happier now?"



Those quotes are what spurred me to write my reply.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer

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