"When" does dice influence start???

Quote: AxelWolf

Ahigh when does a DIer/DCer know when he or she has made a good roll, toss or throw?

I can tell almost from the moment the dice are released whether its a controlled throw or not. With a controlled throw the dice are seemingly "locked" together, rotate on axis, have a slow rotation, released at about a 45-degree angle, have a soft or light bounce and an easy roll or several small soft bounces to the back wall.

When you have those who have practiced you can tell what "shots" have a chance at being "influenced" or "controlled."

If you don't have the basics that I just listed you don't stand a chance at having a controlled throw. But even if the dice do have this type of throw my experience has been that few shooters can repeat the process with any degree of confidence.

That "mystery shooter" I talked about before at Caesars had it, so did the surgeon in Washington.

There are several forum members here who understand the basics of control and while I have not seen them if they have an understanding of the basics then at least they know what they need to practice. And they might already have it down pat.

Me? My hands shake too much. My back aches when I lean over the table to aim for the center of the back wall. I try to make a controlled throw and I can tell at the moment of release if I did it or not. Too often I don't make the controlled throw that I envision and then I can only hope to get lucky.

The reality is with a controlled throw and without a controlled throw the chance of the seven appearing are still just one out of six.

It's relatively easy to say you have control when five out six times there is no seven.

Quote: Zcore13

Unfortunately Aaron's theory on dice control is going in the pooper just like his Bitcoin ponzi scheme investment. It seems he likes to grasp on to imaginary things. I feel bad for him in both cases because he was so sure both were real.

ZCore13

You are so full of shit, dude. First of all I bought bitcoins for research into bitcoins, not as an investment.

Secondly, I have four bitcoins that I got from $280 plus some trades. That's an average price of $70 each.

Thirdly, your comments are inflammatory (as usual).

Imaginary and unproven are two totally different things. You would know this if you weren't so arrogantly sure of everything yourself. IE: your imaginary concepts include your being right about lots of stuff as evidenced by your clearly inaccurate statements above and all over this forum.

The whole point I made about the loaded question is that NOBODY can talk about knowing this stuff because NOBODY knows it to be true!

Frank claims he knows, and he's sent data through the pipeline. But he could even be fooling himself!

All I know is that when it comes to this subject, generally I consider the fact that most people are just full of shit. If the original poster of this thread is going to take Alan Mendelson's answer on the subject, that's something that I think would be appropriate.

You guys just talk amongst yourselves as far as I am concerned.

I'm in the casino.

You have turned out to be a very sad case and it's really hard to take anything you say seriously. When I discuss something I know what I'm talking about. Please find anything I've said that is wrong. You on the other hand live in a fantasy world.

Here are just some of your recent gems...

About dice influencing:
One time when dice influencing starts is when you get banned from shooting. This happened to me yesterday at the Gold Coast casino. This is the first time this has happened to me, but it confirmed that they are worried about my shot.

About bitcoin
"What I predict is that soon, more and more people will start telling the real story about bitcoin and as more people realize that technology is a better way to have a currency than a government or even gold, all money will go towards technology (maybe even ala Revelations in the Bible?)"

"So if you take your total net worth, and divide by $50,000 and buy that many BitCoins, you would be getting insurance over BitCoins overtaking the US dollar in the future."

About your wife (fiance at the time), who you say deserves the respect of others on the board and she shouldn't be brought into conversations
Just so you know, I just motorboated my face into my woman's boobs. She loved it!

On your lucky streak of hard 10's after 109 rolls of less than expected hard 10's
By the math, when I'm expecting 5.55 hardways in 200 rolls and I get 8.00, there might be one or two that were not the result of randomness. So I gotta look at all eight throws, and try to weed through them to see if I can find the one or two that might have not been random. It's also possible that each of the 8 throws was 69% random and 41% controlled on average.

Really? Each was 41% controlled on average? Your buying insurance in case bitcoins take over the U.S. Dollar? You predict the real story about bitcoin will be told? You mean the story of how it's the currency of drug users and criminals? Or how since it's not based on anything and is privately controlled it will eventually (maybe sooner than later) fail just like all ponzi schemes.

Is it possible that all the people you say are wrong (I could probably go through and find dozens) are actually right and you are wrong? You get frustrated because everyone says your wrong and nobody believes in you. But in reality you have not been able to show one legal throw as having any bit of control. Not one out of thousands. When do you get the hint, based on your own information, that you are no different than any normal dice thrower throwing out of a cup, backhanded or with his eyes closed from pickup to throw?

ZCore13

I get the impression that when things aren't going well for Ahigh he puts on the "investigator" badge. But when things go well he is the "expert."

Quote: AlanMendelson

I get the impression that when things aren't going well for Ahigh he puts on the "investigator" badge. But when things go well he is the "expert."

It doesn't look as if math is his forte, either: " It's also possible that each of the 8 throws was 69% random and 41% controlled on average."

Quote: Zcore13

You have turned out to be a very sad case and it's really hard to take anything you say seriously. When I discuss something I know what I'm talking about. Please find anything I've said that is wrong. You on the other hand live in a fantasy world.

Here are just some of your recent gems...

About dice influencing:
One time when dice influencing starts is when you get banned from shooting. This happened to me yesterday at the Gold Coast casino. This is the first time this has happened to me, but it confirmed that they are worried about my shot.

It is 100% known and can be verified that casinos believe and it is generally known to be true that short rolls can be influenced to the players' advantage. This is why casinos DISALLOW short rolls. If you go to the casino, whether you have an influence or not, see how many short rolls you can get away with! I play a lot and I know how these things are treated. If you have a long roll and you have more than a few short rolls, THEY WILL TAKE THE DICE.

There is KNOWN dice influence by utilizing short rolls. This is absolutely a correct answer. Whether you are 100% sure that you are influencing the dice at that instant in time they take the dice away for rolling short is not a certainty. But whether or not the casino is worried about it is NOT. A perfect example of where you have no clue of what I am talking about and assume that I don't when in fact I do.

Quote: Zcore13

About bitcoin
"What I predict is that soon, more and more people will start telling the real story about bitcoin and as more people realize that technology is a better way to have a currency than a government or even gold, all money will go towards technology (maybe even ala Revelations in the Bible?)"

"So if you take your total net worth, and divide by $50,000 and buy that many BitCoins, you would be getting insurance over BitCoins overtaking the US dollar in the future."

Sorry if you can't afford 1 to 100 bitcoins, bro. I am almost done with purchase enough for insurance with 4 bitcoins. Insurance premiums are often money thrown away. Exactly where do you see the flaw in my prediction? This is a far fetch from an assertion. Insurance is based on hedging a scenario based on a possible outcome that you are unsure about. It will be a long while before my prediction is known to be right or wrong. And if I'm wrong, so what? I also predict I could crash my car or it could get stolen and I pay according to that prediction as well. If it were a known fact, it would be an assertion about the future, not a prediction.

If BitCoins go to zero, yeah, I lost! Big whoop! I fail to see how this is a "gem" however, much less how anything I said is even flawed in my method of thinking.

Quote: Zcore13

About your wife (fiance at the time), who you say deserves the respect of others on the board and she shouldn't be brought into conversations
Just so you know, I just motorboated my face into my woman's boobs. She loved it!

You are so totally wrong on this. You point out a single post where I said my woman deserves the respect of others; that's a total fabricated tangent and a lie. What I had a problem with people assuming that because I refer to her as "my woman" that this fact implies that I am stupid (comparing me to Tarzan for example).

Quote: Zcore13

On your lucky streak of hard 10's after 109 rolls of less than expected hard 10's
By the math, when I'm expecting 5.55 hardways in 200 rolls and I get 8.00, there might be one or two that were not the result of randomness. So I gotta look at all eight throws, and try to weed through them to see if I can find the one or two that might have not been random. It's also possible that each of the 8 throws was 69% random and 41% controlled on average.

Really? Each was 41% controlled on average? Your buying insurance in case bitcoins take over the U.S. Dollar? You predict the real story about bitcoin will be told? You mean the story of how it's the currency of drug users and criminals? Or how since it's not based on anything and is privately controlled it will eventually (maybe sooner than later) fail just like all ponzi schemes.

Did you not see the word possible? Look the entire line of thinking was based on the fact that if I intend to roll more than an EXPECTED distribution of those specific rolls based on thousands of recent samples showing I hit those more often, some percentage of those rolls have a higher possibility of having some evidence of influence as compared to others. Pulling numbers out of my ass as possibilities has nothing to do with math. It's pure speculation for the specific purpose of attempting to identify something that does not look random.

In theory, it is possible to have a player edge where 90% of your rolls are 100% random and 10% of your rolls you slide both dice on the felt when nobody is looking. Similarly, if you have an influenced shot, and someone looks at one of your rolls and says, "I can see that you don't have an influenced shot because your dice bounce all over the place" they have no clue about this concept which I am exploring.

Similarly, you guys following a COMPLETE TANGENT on what numbers I picked out of my ass representing a possibility for percentage of randomness versus control FAIL TO UNDERSTAND what I am thinking and simply attack pretty much anything you can in order to annoy me and attempt to discredit what I am saying.

Nice job!

Quote: Zcore13

Is it possible that all the people you say are wrong (I could probably go through and find dozens) are actually right and you are wrong? You get frustrated because everyone says your wrong and nobody believes in you. But in reality you have not been able to show one legal throw as having any bit of control. Not one out of thousands. When do you get the hint, based on your own information, that you are no different than any normal dice thrower throwing out of a cup, backhanded or with his eyes closed from pickup to throw?

ZCore13

In the words of the French, "rien est possible."

However, in this case and in many others, it's also possible that you are just a royal pain in my ass!

Quote: Ahigh

It is 100% known and can be verified that casinos believe and it is generally known to be true that short rolls can be influenced to the players' advantage. This is why casinos DISALLOW short rolls. If you go to the casino, whether you have an influence or not, see how many short rolls you can get away with! I play a lot and I know how these things are treated. If you have a long roll and you have more than a few short rolls, THEY WILL TAKE THE DICE.

There is KNOWN dice influence by utilizing short rolls. This is absolutely a correct answer. Whether you are 100% sure that you are influencing the dice at that instant in time they take the dice away for rolling short is not a certainty. But whether or not the casino is worried about it is NOT. A perfect example of where you have no clue of what I am talking about and assume that I don't when in fact I do.

Maybe the more experienced guys can back me up (or indeed, shoot me down), but I’d not mix all of the above together.

When talking about “influencing a roll”, I think it should be standard that we’re talking about a proper roll i.e. in the air, hit the back wall. Adding short rolls (aka no rolls) into the mix might be exacerbating the confusion issue.

Perhaps drop all short / no rolls from the DI conversations in the future?

It's obvious that short rolls and sliding should not even be considered but it's all he has. Even the the short ones he shows still show no controlled, they show a little less no control than a legal throw.

ZCore13

Quote: Face

Perhaps drop all short / no rolls from the DI conversations in the future?

I wouldn't. I would say the concept of dice influencing starts with the idea of being able to beat a casino in the real world. If you occasionally, as an example, roll short and on those rolls hit your point at twice the expected rate, and on non short rolls are totlally random, then you would be exerting influence. If you could do this just 1 in 20 rolls you probably could beat the house edge, especially if you had lots on odds. I am not sure, as I don't play as much as some here, but I think 1 in 20 being a short roll would not have you no-rolled, but I could be wrong.

A short roll where both die don't reach the wall will be called a no roll in a casino. It's not a legal shot so why should it be counted?

ZCore13

Quote: SOOPOO

I wouldn't. I would say the concept of dice influencing starts with the idea of being able to beat a casino in the real world. If you occasionally, as an example, roll short and on those rolls hit your point at twice the expected rate, and on non short rolls are totlally random, then you would be exerting influence. If you could do this just 1 in 20 rolls you probably could beat the house edge, especially if you had lots on odds. I am not sure, as I don't play as much as some here, but I think 1 in 20 being a short roll would not have you no-rolled, but I could be wrong.

Ahigh / superrick, can you confirm / deny that this would be a valid strategy for you?

I’ll be honest, I never thought that this was part of the convo because, as Zcore pointed out, it’s not a “legal roll” and you’ll eventually get ousted (as Ahigh reported). In every DI debate ever, I’ve always had it in my mind that we were talking about proper rolls.

I guess I’d equate it with you, SOOPOO, and your b-ball shot. You tell me you can influence the ball for half court shots enough for it to be skill and not luck, then sink a bunch of free throws and using it as proof.

If the DI’s do use “getting away” with short rolls as part of their proof of DI, then I’ve got to reset my thinking.

Quote: Zcore13

A short roll where both die don't reach the wall will be called a no roll in a casino. It's not a legal shot so why should it be counted?

ZCore13

I am as random as you can get. My last roll which both dice did not hit the back wall was made fun of by the crew, but it counted. It was NOT called a no roll. So to answer your question... it seems to be a BIG deal to disallow a roll, as i am sure players would feel cheated if their win was disallowed. It is much easier for them to allow the questionable roll. Of course, if it is a pattern, then they will take action. Exactly how frequently you could get away with it is something that will of course vary from crew to crew.

Quote: SOOPOO

I am as random as you can get. My last roll which both dice did not hit the back wall was made fun of by the crew, but it counted. It was NOT called a no roll. So to answer your question... it seems to be a BIG deal to disallow a roll, as i am sure players would feel cheated if their win was disallowed. It is much easier for them to allow the questionable roll. Of course, if it is a pattern, then they will take action. Exactly how frequently you could get away with it is something that will of course vary from crew to crew.

If you are grabbing the dice, shaking them up, having fun and roll a short one you have a much better chance than someone who rolls like Ahigh, who sets the dice up and tries to roll machine-like each time. As he has already mentioned, he has been asked to not play anymore because of this and he is not even a "big" player.

ZCore13

Quote: Face

Maybe the more experienced guys can back me up (or indeed, shoot me down), but I’d not mix all of the above together.

When talking about “influencing a roll”, I think it should be standard that we’re talking about a proper roll i.e. in the air, hit the back wall. Adding short rolls (aka no rolls) into the mix might be exacerbating the confusion issue.

Of course: when discussing dice control and dice influencing we should be talking about "legal throws." Back in the good old days the "dice controllers" were all coming up with ways to influence "legal throws." I always refer to Sharpshooter's book because I consider it the "technical bible" of dice influencing and he always discusses dice influencing in terms of a legal throw. The dice will fly in the air, hit the table and bounce and hit the back wall.

If you are going to measure your SRR or any other stats at a craps table for testing purposes, it makes no sense to include throws where both dice don't hit the back wall... just as it would make no sense to include stats from a slide.

We all can assume that a short roll will be influenced, and sorry those short rolls just don't count towards any claims about dice control or dice influencing.

If someone claims they can influence or control the dice ONLY "legal throws" should be counted.

If you want to include "non legal throws" I will demonstrate sliding at any table of your choice.

Quote: SOOPOO

I wouldn't.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Of course.

Then I think Ahigh should pop in and declare which way he will go from here on. Seems one source of confusion has been identified.

I really wish Ahigh would answer my question about if or when he knows if his shot is going to be a influenced/ controlled shoot or not.

Quote: Zcore13

A short roll where both die don't reach the wall will be called a no roll in a casino. It's not a legal shot so why should it be counted?

ZCore13

Perfect example of your making incorrect assertions. SOOPOO gets a score on this one.

It absolutely will NOT be called a no roll. As a matter of fact I have not even a SINGLE time in Las Vegas seen a short roll called a no roll. Not ONE SINGLE TIME.

I have had the dice taken from me THREE times in my entire career. And I have seen them get taken away from other people a total of three times IN MY LIFE.

But even on these occasions, every single short roll that led up to the dice being taken away were honored.

ZCore13, I know that you want to feel like you're adding to the conversation and possibly even represent the side of the argument that says that dice control is for people who are less intelligent that you to believe.

But if you continue making false claims, you really aren't helping anyone.

I'm at the point now where I want to meet you in person. I used to be annoyed a lot by Buzzard, but after I got to know him, I started to realize a lot better where he was coming from.

You are almost at a point where I'm classifying your comments along with EvenBob.

Quote: Ahigh

Perfect example of your making incorrect assertions. SOOPOO gets a score on this one.

It absolutely will NOT be called a no roll. As a matter of fact I have not even a SINGLE time in Las Vegas seen a short roll called a no roll. Not ONE SINGLE TIME.

Wow, you're not much of a dice controller are you? I've been no rolled at MGM, NYNY and Bellagio. Heck... at Bellagio they refused to pay me on two rolls because the dice didn't bounce off the back wall far enough.

I guess these casinos you play in don't think your dice throwing skills are much of a threat.

Perhaps they took the dice from you for other reasons besides your dice throwing skills? Like maybe you're a PITA ??

Quote: AxelWolf

I really wish Ahigh would answer my question about if or when he knows if his shot is going to be a influenced/ controlled shoot or not.

I have never had a 100% controlled shot. Ever. There has been other discussions about this, and the idea that either you have a controlled shot or you don't isn't even part of the equation.

You can absolutely tell when you have a bad release. In other words, you can absolutely know when you screw up a shot.

But you can never ever ever ever be 100% sure when you release the dice that it is 100% controlled. You can't even be sure that you're 100% going to avoid a seven or even ANY specific outcome.

It doesn't happen.

My mental model is that every single shot has a percentage of randomness between some high percentage number and 100%. And the remaining percentage is a percentage of control.

If you take a histogram of your roll over millions of throws, it will have a shape that will not be flat assuming you have a consistent and influenced throw.

The more rolls you have and the more well-defined this shape the better idea you can have what percentage of each throw (on average) is controlled and what percentage of each throw (on average) is random.

That's the way that I think about it anyway. The less this shape looks like a random distribution, the more control you have. The fewer number of roll you are able to get your chi-squared p-value to go below 0.01 the more control you likely have and the less the distribution is due to randomness and the more the distribution is due to your controlled shot.

So in closing, if you wanted to be able to assert your theoretical control better, you could have a button that you press that lights up a light before the dice resolve to let the camera know you don't want to consider that throw because it wasn't controlled to your own satisfaction. Then you could fairly look at the bias of the throws that you performed to the best of your ability and have a better idea of you theoretical bias assuming all of your throws were performed in a more ideal way.

But, unfortunately, you can't yell out "everything off" after you release the dice in the casino just because you didn't like how you released the dice. So you would never be able to have such an ideal throw in the casino.

But you could at least have a better understanding of what your ideal controlled throw looks like, and prevent from following red herrings of just getting lucky instead of getting something as the result of having thrown better.

I'm sorry you continue to live your personal life (I assume you don't do it at work since it seems you have a pretty good job) with blinders on. You don't see you are ridiculously. biased with your "influence experiment ". Other people on this board try and help you, giving you legitimate. suggestions to help you determine if you show any level of control. You act like your tiny little window of experience makes you an expert at all things craps. You know more than everyone about every aspect, including the Casino side, although you have no experience in it. I'm sure I've played way less craps than you and I've seen "no roll" called.

I don't claim to know everything about everything but I do know a lot about gaming, game management, game protection and other gaming subjects. That is how I feed my family. The quality of my work and knowledge is why I succeed and am selected to speak at and participate in gaming conventions.

I'd be happy to meet you someday. I've said it multiple times that I appreciate your effort and think you are probably a good guy. I am not a bad guy or out to get you. You just refuse to listen to reason. You can't be and aren't correct on everything. Everyone else can't always be wrong. Open your mind to the other side a little and as the old saying goes, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. Use them proportionately.

ZCore13

As I said, SOOPOO is right on this one. You're wrong if you think I always think everyone is wrong.

It is a true tradition for you to imply that I always think everyone is wrong; in fact I don't. It's a misrepresentation that you imply this.

Quote: Ahigh

As I said, SOOPOO is right on this one.

So your influencing includes influence that occurs on short rolls? Is that the part you're refering to when you say "SOOPOO is right"?

My recorded rolls include short rolls as does all of my casino play.

When the table is dumping on my roll, those short rolls are not tolerated at all.

The best example was when the table dumped over $60,000 on my roll at the Wynn.

I had two rolls where only one of two dice came up short.

They let me know that the third roll like that would have been my last roll before having the dice taken away.

There were lots of suits watching.

Short answer: yes.

Is there influence in any of my non-short rolls? I have no idea!

Is there enough influence in all my rolls including short rolls to have a player advantage on any bets? It looks like it, but I'm don't know for sure (too few samples).

Is there influence in my rolls ONLY including the short rolls? If I were to guess, I would say so, but nobody really cares since rolling short every time is not allowed. That's why a guess is all that's important: because nobody cares (not even me)!

I seem to seven-out on short rolls just as much as any other rolls, but I really don't know about short versus non-short for my rolls in particular.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Wow, you're not much of a dice controller are you? I've been no rolled at MGM, NYNY and Bellagio. Heck... at Bellagio they refused to pay me on two rolls because the dice didn't bounce off the back wall far enough.

I guess these casinos you play in don't think your dice throwing skills are much of a threat.

Perhaps they took the dice from you for other reasons besides your dice throwing skills? Like maybe you're a PITA ??

First off, I never knew what PITA stood for until you accused me of being one. Has anyone ever accused you of being a PITA? If not, how did you learn about the acronym? Alright, enough questions from me, here's what I have to say about the rest of your post:

For the record, congratulation to you for being refused pay for a short roll. And you're right, I've never seen this happen for ANYONE to the extent that from my play experience, your story sounds a whole lot like bullshit to me. But I'm sure it really happened to you since you're a credible trustworthy news guy and all.

However, since the subject has come up, who else besides Alan Mendelsen has had their (otherwise legal -- IE not one in the wood no good etc) short roll called a no roll AFTER the resolution of the dice was known?

I have seen this PLENTY of times BEFORE the resolution of both dice was known, but let's be clear here: I have not ever seen a non-pay for a short roll for any gambler EVER (here in Vegas where I play exclusively) for a roll that was otherwise legal except that it was a short roll.

If Alan's story is true, there is probably at least one other person on this forum who has seen a roll resolve completely and have a casino refuse to honor the payment for no other reason than it was a short roll (IE: let's not even consider a leaning die or any other weird stuff in the mix [leaning on the bank chips, etc], alright?). So let's see how many other people have seen this BESIDES Alan.

I'll tell you what I think, though, Alan. I think you're just starting some shit making those comments. On average I think you bet larger amounts than me and I think that might have more to do with the motivations for your comments than anything (a desire to bring light to that on your part to do a sort of measuring up process to measure yourself up to me).

It's too bad you don't live here in Vegas. We could go play right now on an empty table at 3:30 in the morning. Enjoy those tourism views of what gambling is like in Vegas. And maybe you are right! I have no clue what it's like for a tourist playing high dollar craps. Maybe they are just taking advantage of you not paying you! I've seen plenty of suckers have dealer bets made without the suckers even knowing what's going on, so I suppose it could happen not getting paid for a short roll. But I haven't ever seen it.

Not paying a short roll intentionally is in an entirely different class, though, of all the other chicanery done by dealers to get tok's .. or even what might be considered innocent mistakes like taking down a hardway bet when it shouldn't have been taken down. Those types of things happen very frequently and that's the most common way a bet isn't paid (it's taken down when the player isn't paying attention -- especially hard way all day bets!)

I saw where someone else above said they've seen a no roll called (without qualifying it being called specifically because it was short). But let's get into the nitty gritty details since this subject has been called out. Where did you see it called, what was the name of the casino employee who called it a no roll even though is resolved fully, cleanly, and legally with everything else besides the roll being short 100% legit and in the clear. I would like to talk to the casino and/or the crew that allowed this to occur, because it's not something I have ever heard about, ever. And I absolutely do keep track of this type of thing a lot more than you may think.

Evidence! Otherwise I am calling bullshit on ANYBODY who claims this happened.

But give me names and a person I can call here in Las Vegas and talk to who would say "yes we refuse to pay short rolls if they player was warned." And I will handily admit that there was something that I didn't know and thought that I knew that all short rolls would be paid.

Until then, I'm assuming that I'm right whether you disagree and work for a casino or anything else, let's get this dispute resolved.

It is possible that Alan is telling the truth, and the person who called a no roll on his short roll broke a law. If that's the case, I absolutely want to follow up with a name of who did that. I'm no expert on the law, but the fact that I have never seen this before myself in all the play that I have done leads me to believe that it probably is a law that they still have to pay on short rolls. All they can do is take the dice and/or refuse a shooter to be able to shoot.

Casino personel (stick man or box man or even a dealer) can call a no roll for any roll before the dice resolve. This happens ALL THE TIME. So don't get confused about what we're talking about!

This happens under the following cases:

* Player uses two hands to throw
* Player does not have a line bet
* Player does not hit the back wall
* Player is HOLDING A DRINK WHILE SHOOTING
* Player throws the dice above eye level
* Player puts hands in the bowl and the dice hit the players hands in a way that the dealers think is suspicious
* Dice bounce off a player in a way that looks suspicious before hitting the felt

This list goes ON AND ON AND ON. But the trick is, no roll is called before the outcome is generally known.

Exceptions are sometimes in the case of if the die comes to a rest or near rest before hitting the felt as it bounces off a player [IE: in the wood no good without a specific call and die is brushed onto the felt by a player], the rack of chips (IE: brushed off the rack) and some other rare cases where no roll is not called after resolution because it's obvious that the roll was compromised and all the players realize it's a no roll and play continues. Even in these cases it is very rare not to be called "NO ROLL" before the dice resolve on the felt, and the assumption is that everyone watching knows it was a no-roll when the die hits the felt and play continues without a no-roll call on account of everyone knowing with certainty what was a die hitting the felt was a no-roll.

Quote: Ahigh

I have never had a 100% controlled shot. Ever.

That's it, from Ahigh's own lips, keyboard, fingers, IP address. All this time he was jerking us around.

Quote: AlanMendelson

That's it, from Ahigh's own lips, keyboard, fingers, IP address. All this time he was jerking us around.

No, that's it. You do not understand a goddamn thing. The reason you want so many definitions is because you can't understand hardly any of this.

100% control is when I throw a shot and I get the exact same outcome every single goddamn time.

You are not a PITA, you are aspire to be the king of them all.

I think, at this point, you are just simply a poor gambler who has lost who takes out your frustrations on me and others here on this board.

I'm so sorry you lose. And if it is, in fact, your losing explains your behavior, here's an acronym for you: NMP!

You're back on block.

First of all I think your offensive language should get you suspended, and I have flagged your comments.

Secondly, you don't read very well. You wrote: "If Alan's story is true, there is probably at least one other person on this forum who has seen a roll resolve completely and have a casino refuse to honor the payment for no other reason than it was a short roll (IE: let's not even consider a leaning die or any other weird stuff in the mix [leaning on the bank chips, etc], alright?). So let's see how many other people have seen this BESIDES Alan."

What I wrote is that the dice did not bounce off the back wall far enough.

You can probably make a Google Search to find all of the times I discussed this event at Bellagio... how the dice came to rest against the back wall showing 5-4 and how the dealers refused to pay, and how a floor person ordered the dealers to pay and the dealers got into a loud argument with the floor person. Later Bellagio management apologized to me and the dealers were sent to "retraining" whatever that is.

Here's what I wrote on another forum back in 2009 about the incident: (Original post: https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/forum/textthread.cfm?catid=17&threadid=297345&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE= )

Date Posted: 8/23/09 10:33 PM
Posted By: MoneyLA
Here's what happened at the B: after I threw the dice 3 times showing 5/4 the stickman said to me: "your dice must bounce off the back wall." Then he started to make all sorts of negative comments about players who go to "schools to learn how to cheat the casinos," etc etc. I told him "I never went to school" and "my dice hit the back wall." In fact, they were leaning against the back wall. That's when the boxman said "our rule here is that the dice must bounce off the back wall a minimum of six inches." I told him there is no such rule. There was some yelling back and forth.

So, I threw the dice again. this time the dice hit the back wall but bounced back only an inch. "NO ROLL" said the boxman. they didnt pay me. I protested-- but no good.

So, I threw the dice again. again, the dice hit the back wall but bounced back only an inch. "NO ROLL" said the boxman. This time I got louder. Thats when a floorperson from another table walked over to my table and started yelling at the crew. "PAY THOSE BETS" the floorperson said. They paid the bet (not the previous bet), and the stickman muttered something which told me to scram. I took my bets down, leaving only the passline bet up.

Now with all the chips in my pocket, I took the two dice and threw them hard. the dice bounced wildly all over the table, and hit 5-- which was my point. they paid the passline and I left.

but... a couple of weeks later, my wife and I were at the B to meet her sister for brunch. after brunch we were walking through the casino and we passed a $10 craps table that was wide open. So I said, let me try a hundred. And my wife said OK.

So I bought in for a hundred, and kept rolling for about 6-7 minutes. After 6-7 minutes I had a couple hundred in my rail and everything was pressed up to $130 across. Thats when the floorman said to me "got a player's card?" "No," I said. He said, "give me your license, youre having a great roll, let's get you rated."
"No thanks," I said.
Well, he insisted. So I took my MGM players card out of my wallet and handed it to him. He scanned it into the computer.
Then as I am picking up the dice, the card comes back to me. Read this carefully: he didn't hand the card to me, he didn't place it on the rail next to me. HE TOOK THE CARD AND THREW IT WITH FULL FORCE AT MY HAND AND IT HIT MY HAND.
I was shocked. I looked at my wife and said "I think they want me to leave."
And the floorman said, quote: "THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA."

A couple of weeks later we were at the MGM and when I walked up to a table, a supervisor (suit) came over to the boxman and said "Mr X is welcome to place bets, but he's not to throw the dice."

then at NYNY Im having a great roll, and the boxman and floorman are watching me, and make comments about me setting dice. And I say "you don't believe it works, do you?" And they say "yes, we know it works."
On my next throw I make another pass.
Then I set up the passline this way: bet for me, bet for the dealers, bet for the cleaner who was at the table cleaning the shelf under the rail, and a bet for the cocktail waitress.
I set the dice throw a 7 and everyone wins.
then the supervisor looks at me and says, "you're through." And I took that to mean leave, and I did, taking my bets and going.

then about a year later, I meet my sister and brother in law at MGM. I did not throw the dice, but as soon as I walked up to the table THREE SUITS came to stand across the table and watch me. But the funniest thing is that my sister (a complete random roller who just hurls the dice) had a 40 minute hand and my original $100 buy in turned into $3-thousand. After she threw, we left.

I play regularly at Caesars. They have no objection to dice setting or attempts at control-- just get the dice down to the end of the table is all they ask.

It is at Caesars that I have played with two masters of the art.

And, by the way, the dealers and table supervisors LAUGH when I tell them about what happened to me at B.

08/23/2009 22:39:52|U

Hey Alan. About my language: Waaaaaaahhhhhh! Damn is not a bad word, and I have freedom of religion. So can say goddamn if I want to.

A dealer made a mistake. And by your OWN description, it was an unusual event.

IE: who gives a flying F! A one-off not getting paid ON A LEANER NO LESS, means NOTHING.

Just a leaning die alone (short or not short) is enough to get many dealers confused.

You have a comprehension problem, not me. Quit projecting.

The discussion isn't about a mistake. The claim was made by Zcore that short rolls don't get paid.

He was wrong, and you chimed in as if to support his claims based on something that was CLEARLY by your own recount a dealer mistake.

Not a casino policy.

So WHAT?

If we go back and retrace all this discussion, yet another goddamn tangent by posters like you who wish to discredit my claims.

YAY!!!!

Your one-off mistakes mean NOTHING to the accepted policy that in general, short rolls are paid, and they eventually will take the dice, but pay every roll up until and including the last and final roll before the dice are taken away from the shooter.

Or did you lose track of what the discussion was and just want to talk about your little stories about how you were mistreated? Booo hooo!!!

Ahigh... what is your point? That casinos have some "official policy" that says "short rolls are okay"?

I challenge you to show me the policy at ANY casino that says short rolls are okay.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ahigh... what is your point? That casinos have some "official policy" that says "short rolls are okay"?

I challenge you to show me the policy at ANY casino that says short rolls are okay.

You seriously don't understand do you?

I don't know how to be more clear about this! My point is that they do in fact pay short rolls. Policy or not. They do it.

Short rolls are not "okay" they are grounds for having the dice taken away.

Tell me what part of the above you don't understand, Alan!

Quote:

Face
Ahigh / superrick, can you confirm / deny that this would be a valid strategy for you?

Any DI is always trying to hit the back wall with both dice, and the explanation for that is very simple, that's the way they were taught to throw the dice. The casinos want you to hit the back wall, so why in the world would any DI try to miss it on purpose. Take a min. and think about what I just wrote, here you have a guy that spends hours practicing hitting the back wall with his dice, and now he comes up short,.. on one shot, the casino jumps all over him, because he missed the back wall with most likely one of his dice.

That guy that is trying to hit the back wall every time and now that he missed it one time and the casino is all over him, encouraging him to hit the back wall again. You will see more 7's coming up on the short rolls from DI's then any other time. The casinos have it backwards and so do the DI's when the casinos are telling them to hit the back wall, that's what you want to do, that is what you spent all your time training to do!

Again watch any of Ahigh's slow-motion videos, and you can see that the dice bounce all over the place when they hit the tables, it doesn't matter if its a short roll. One of the hardest things for a DI to do is go from shooting on a 12 foot table to one that has a board in the middle of the table. The shooter can't find a spot where they are comfortable shooting from, they can't scale their shooting down to the small table. Where you would think that it would be so easy for a DI to shoot from only a few feet away from the back wall they are now trying to figure out why they can't do it!

DI's would love it if there were no rolls called on all their short rolls, and when they called a short roll, if it was a seven it wouldn't count. If one die hits the back wall, how is anybody going to stop just one die if they both leave the shooters hand at the same time, it just wouldn't happen guys. Paranoia is the only word that can describe how the casinos handle anybody that sets they dice.

So the question "When" does dice influence start??? is very easy to answer, it starts as soon as someone that sets the dice picks up the dice and there is anybody on the the table that believes in it, whether it is the casino or another player. It doesn't matter that the shooter doesn't know a thing about being a DI when they are shooting, all it matters is that someone believes that they have a shooter that can beat the casino, and that is exactly what a lot of the casinos believe, from all the fiction they read on the subject. That can all be contributed from never looking at their losers, but always looking at their winners. DI's don't always win, they can't do the things these fiction writers write about!

Basically you are invisible to the suits if you are a loser, unless they are giving you a stupid comp, because you are a loser. Remember their job is to protect the game from someone that is going to cheat them and there are suppose to be no winners on their tables. So in their little minds any more you are cheating if you are winning. The pencil pushers have everybody that now works in a casinos so afraid of their jobs, it must be hell to go to work everyday and have to put up with these pin heads lack of knowledge of the games that are played in the casinos.

Quote:

The Casino Management Handbook, page 29

Consider the standard casino policy of insisting that the shooter in a craps game reach the end wall with the dice. Casinos request that shooters do this to guard against controlled dice shots, and also in the fairness to players betting the don't pass line. Yet from listening to the players' comments, we know that some of them misinterpret this rule, believing the house makes such a demand only in an attempt to jinx them.

However, in this instance, casinos have concluded that protecting the game should take precedence over concerns of offending superstitious players. Therefore, casinos insist that craps shooters abide by this rule. Are There similar situations, where the house must risk alienating superstitious players to protect the game against possible cheating? Read on.
[Note: Casinos are often less insistent that both dice reach the end wall when high rollers violate this rule. Casinos are careful about offending high rollers whose past play has shown that they are not controlled dice shot artists.]

The Casino Management Handbook, by Mark Tracy copyright 1995, is a good little book that anybody that plays any casino game should have in their library!

One of the things that get the shooter to say something about how they are being treated, is the way these high rolling losers are getting preferential treatment when they miss the back wall! Please don't let me read that I wrote that if your a high roller you can do anything you want to on a craps table, if you are a winner, they will be giving you heat just like anybody else. If they are giving a free comp to Macua to play craps all I can say is big loser! Casinos don't give away things to winners, they give it to their losers, to get them back into their casinos!


The things that most if not all players never take into consideration, is that all the shots that were developed to cheat the players when they were playing in back room games never made it over to legal casinos. They were used on blankets, on hard tables that had a slick surface on it, they didn't have the rubber diamonds on the table. The blanket roll was only rolled a few inches down the blanket, most of the time it was on someones bunk. The dice were not thrown 8 to 10 ft through the air. The casinos carried over the paranoia when they opened legal tables, from what the cheats were doing in the back rooms.

The didn't have the slow-motion cameras we have now days to look at what happens when the dice hit the tables. Common sense would have them re-valuating how they are thinking about the DI's after seeing one of these videos! Casinos should welcome every craps player they can get to their tables, whether they set the dice or if the just sling them down the table. Then they need to remember how they make their money, and just in case anyone from a casino is reading this let me spell it out for you, its by rolls per hour, its not by chasing the dice that are off the table, they already bounce around enough to make them random.

Then they need to take all the BS that is written and forget about it,... its there to sell books and schools, and for some egotistical maniacs to put themselves up on a pedestal, even though nobody has ever seen them in a real casino. They still go about writing all their fiction so they can have a claim to fame. Just take a look at who holds the record for the longest roll in craps, and its not a DI, nor is it someone that was written up in a book to sell the authors BS about becoming a DI. It's by someone that was just slinging the dice down the table and not setting them, what's that tell you guys?

DI's don't make money with just their shooting, they need smart betting to allow them to win. DI's are not just shooting machines, that never seven out, hell most of them are PSO's kings, if everything doesn't fall into place for them they are just like everybody else and become just one more loser for the day!

Just one more thing, to clear up this matter of a no roll call:

Quote:

Ahigh

Casino personel (stick man or box man or even a dealer) can call a no roll for any roll before the dice resolve. This happens ALL THE TIME. So don't get confused about what we're talking about!

This happens under the following cases:

* Player uses two hands to throw
* Player does not have a line bet
* Player does not hit the back wall
* Player is HOLDING A DRINK WHILE SHOOTING
* Player throws the dice above eye level
* Player puts hands in the bowl and the dice hit the players hands in a way that the dealers think is suspicious
* Dice bounce off a player in a way that looks suspicious before hitting the felt

This list goes ON AND ON AND ON. But the trick is, no roll is called before the outcome is generally known.

All no rolls has to be called in the air, they can't be called after the fact! At Palaces Station they had a tub, where they would call a no roll if both dice didn't hit the back wall, I loved it because if the called a no roll and it came up a 7 you got to shoot again! I've seen a lot of rolls that never even went pass the prop box on regulation tables and was never called a no roll, only because it was done by a random roller that was losing or a high roller.. There is a different standard for someone that is setting the dice and winning!

You know I only had Alan off of block for a couple days. That's about all I can handle. I'm not even reading his posts any more.

The nice thing about having Harley on here was that it kept Alan busy!

Somebody needs to go back and forth with him, but I'm done. I appreciate your putting in your two cents Rick.

People should know that I'm not a follower of anybody else's views on this subject.

But I get really frustrated with comments from, in this thread, Alan and Zcore.

It just gets really personal the way that the attacks occur.

I don't have time for all this BS.

Maybe less forum 4me.

Quote: Ahigh

You seriously don't understand do you?

What YOU don't understand is that your claims about your shooting cannot include short rolls. Sure the casinos allow some short rolls, but if you are going to claim some skill or talent then your rolls must be by the book. Short rolls aren't. ALL of my rolls at Bellagio hit the back wall. I just happened to throw five in a row that ended up 5/4 using the cross-sixes set with 5/4 in the front.

Quote: Ahigh

People should know that I'm not a follower of anybody else's views on this subject.

Obviously you know it all.

deleted

While I do not recall seeing a "No Roll!" declaration without a prior warning, I have seen it called if the shooter was warned, and continues to throw short.

It is not necessarily against the law (cheating) to throw short, but it is against house rules.

There"s another person who has seen it. He must be wrong too though...

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

There"s another person who has seen it. He must be wrong too though...

ZCore13

I have seen it once at one of the casinos in Primm.

Quote: MrV

While I do not recall seeing a "No Roll!" declaration without a prior warning, I have seen it called if the shooter was warned, and continues to throw short.

It is not necessarily against the law (cheating) to throw short, but it is against house rules.

Just to clarify and it matters, was the no roll called before or after the outcome of the roll was known?

I assume you read the details of my post, but it matters, and since you didn't mention this facet, I can only assume you are being misleading with your post.

Be honest! And if you don't remember, I wouldn't count it as mattering.

A "no roll" is a "no roll" to a player. Doesn't matter when it's called. It's a "no roll" and there's nothing you can do about it. The one I saw was called right as the dice stopped and didnt' make the back wall. It was the point and it was called a "no roll". On the re-throw the shooter sevened out. Not a very happy table and most people left.

It happens, whether you want to believe it or not. Just because you choose not to doens't mean everyone is wrong again and anyone is being "misleading".

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

A "no roll" is a "no roll" to a player. Doesn't matter when it's called.

You're wrong about that. If the casino staff sees that the result is in the player's favor before no roll is called, it makes a difference.

Quote: Zcore13

It's a "no roll" and there's nothing you can do about it.

It sounds as if you don't remember and just want to continue to make claims that you can't back up.

Quote: Zcore13

The one I saw was called right as the dice stopped and didnt' make the back wall. It was the point and it was called a "no roll". On the re-throw the shooter sevened out. Not a very happy table and most people left.

You didn't answer my question. But if it was called a no roll after the dice resolved, I can understand how the customers would be unhappy. But really nice job not answering my question.

Quote: Zcore13

It happens, whether you want to believe it or not. Just because you choose not to doens't mean everyone is wrong again and anyone is being "misleading".

ZCore13

I never said "it does not happen" and I never said "I don't believe it has ever happened."

What I said, and I will refresh your memory is that I have NEVER seen it. And to be more direct, we're talking about a general policy as far as it relates to being able to get short rolls to be paid. Not whether there was one case when a no roll was called after the resolution was known.

But keep on backtracking and dodging my questions. Maybe someone will take your side.

Quote: Ahigh

I never said "it does not happen" and I never said "I don't believe it has ever happened."

You are a clown. Here is my quote...

Quote: ZCore13

A short roll where both die don't reach the wall will be called a no roll in a casino. It's not a legal shot so why should it be counted?

And then here is your reply to it.

Quote: Ahigh

Perfect example of your making incorrect assertions. SOOPOO gets a score on this one.

It absolutely will NOT be called a no roll.

Nothing you say on this board is based on fact. You continually make things up, are then challenged, and then accuse everyone of being wrong or misleading. You live in a fantasy world, including your most recent day dream of "I never said it does not happen". Amazing.

ZCore13

I once had a "no roll" after the result was known. It was a normal roll except for the fact that my line bet wasn't there. It was a 7 out. They probably would have counted it if it was any other number.

Quote: Ahigh

Just to clarify and it matters, was the no roll called before or after the outcome of the roll was known?

It was called AFTER the outcome was known, at least after both dice stopped moving.

How would the box know the roll is short without first waiting for the dice to stop their movement?

Quote: miplet

I once had a "no roll" after the result was known. It was a normal roll except for the fact that my line bet wasn't there. It was a 7 out. They probably would have counted it if it was any other number.

This matches how things should go: in the player's favor assuming a mistake like this was made innocently!

One time there was already a die on the felt and I threw two more, and the call was made on the best two out of three after a collision occurred and you couldn't tell which two were thrown and which one was already there!

But again, it was in my favor and comical.

I want to remind everyone reading the thread, this isn't an argument about a one-off. I am merely stating that I never seen this happen, and as a general rule, short rolls get called and paid very routinely. Even when a shooter is suspected, the call is made on the short roll - pay is made or bets are taken for wins/losses, and the dice are taken away, end of story.

All players are supposed to be reminded about short rolls, whether they are being suspected of taking advantage of them or not. But it left to the discretion of the crew whether or not they are reminded, "all the way down shooter" depending on whether it's in the best interest or not. In general, they are SUPPOSED to remind the shooter on every single short roll to hit the back wall. But good discretion on part of the crew to maximize earnings within the law overrides every rule in the book, in general.

If you are obviously random rolling and nobody else is around, they are less likely to say anything than the same situation with others. Just the appearance of being consistent in always reminding players, "all the way down" etc is part of what they are supposed to do.

But if the shooter is just picking them up and flinging them and nobody else is there, keeping the dice moving for a random shooter is more important than enforcing every last rule. IE: they want to make money as quickly as possible and reminding about short rolls is a protection thing, not a thing to maximize the hold per unit time.

Maximizing earnings is job #1 when possible. Keeping the dice moving as quickly as possible is rule #1 when nothing suspicious is happening.

But please, guys, don't misread what I'm saying that this has never happened before and I don't believe anyone who says it has. I'm just saying I have never seen it and I play a lot. If it happens, it's the exception and not the rule.

I honestly don't think anyone is disagreeing with the point that I'm making: short rolls get paid up to and including the moment the dice are taken away in general.

Prove that this is not the case if you disagree. But here in Vegas anyway, on any of the non-tub tables, you're going to be pretty challenged to show me that my assertion about the fact that short rolls get paid in general is not true. IE: not gonna do it. It's absolutely the exception and not the rule. Not paying a short roll happens very very rarely so much so that, as I said, I have never seen it out of hundreds of thousands of observed rolls (if not over a million) during my observation of the game here in Vegas.

Quote:

NJ state code

19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice
go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.
(b) The persons listed in (e) below shall have the authority to invalidate a
roll of the dice by calling "No Roll" for any of the following reasons:
1. The dice do not leave the shooter's hand simultaneously;
2. Either or both of the dice fail to strike an end of the table;
3. Either or both of the dice come to rest on the chips constituting
the craps bank of chips located in front of the boxperson.
4. Either or both of the dice come to rest in the dice cup in front of
the craps stickperson, or in front of the the mini-craps dealer or stickperson, or
on one of the rails surrounding the table;
5. The use of a cheating, crooked or fixed device or technique in
the roll of the dice; and,
6. For any other reason the craps boxperson or stickperson, or the
mini-craps dealer or stickperson considers the throw to be improper.
(c) The call of "No Roll" under either paragraphs 1, 2 or 6 of subsection
(b) of this section shall, whenever possible, be made before both dice come to
rest.
(d) A throw of the dice which results in the dice coming into contact with
any match play coupons or chips on the table, other than the craps bank of
chips located in front of the Boxman, shall not be a cause for a call of "No Roll".
(e) "No Roll" may be called:
1. In craps, by a boxperson or stickperson, as designated by the
casino licensee; and
2. In mini-craps, by the dealer, stickperson or floorperson, as
designated by the casino licensee.
As amended, effective: 06/20/94
As amended, effective: 08/05/96
As amended, effective: 03/17/97

While NJ, Colorado, and a few of the other states have rules in place, NV does not. Although there are a very few players that think it’s okay to run games like this, the guys that play all the time would rather see good rules in place, so the casinos can’t use a no roll call to their advantage!

I’ve had no rolls called on me plenty of times, some were good calls, others where terrible calls that came out of the blue, for no apparent reason, some of them were even reversed when a 7 came out on the dice. All of these calls will vary from casino to casino! Most come with a warning that they are going to call a no roll if both dice don’t hit the back wall, or they are going to take the dice off you if you miss the back wall.

No rolls are a part of the game, we all come up short sometimes, even the so-called random rollers,.. will have a die not make it to the back wall sometimes, when they are just slinging the dice as hard as they can, they hit something, they for some odd reason bounce backwards, I’ve seen it all. Most of the time you will only see short rolls called if the shooter starts to win, this even goes for the random rollers. It’s not something that is used just against the DI’s.

All rolls count, unless the dealer of box calls a no roll, I’ve never had them refuse to pay a bet that wasn’t called a no-roll. Some of you guys think every post that Ahigh make is about name calling, and the same thing goes for Ahigh. Get back to the subject at hand and stop the name calling. Like it or not Ahigh is giving you guys a look at what can happen when you are playing craps. It doesn’t matter if everything goes perfectly when he is putting on one of his shows, or what he writes holds true to what some of us think is a controlled shot. Your definition of what a controlled shot should look like may differ then anybody else’s.

I could put you on the table with some of the best DI’s around and some of you wouldn’t even know that you are on the same table with a DI. Just because you read it in a book doesn’t mean that its 100% right.

Anybody that plays in a casino in NV should have this phone number on their phone and use it when there is any dispute with what a casino has done on the craps table or any other game that you are playing. "Gaming 702-486-2000" remember you can get them 24 hours a day. You have 7 days before the tape goes away, so call as soon as it happens, most of the time you can get them to make a decision after they review the tape by the casino employees and it will never go to gaming.

I've had to use them running the tape back quite a few times, because they didn't mark up a fire bet or one of the other bonus bets that I play, so far it's only gone to gaming one time. On every occasion, I've been right so far. Most disputes happen when you have a new buy-in or there is a big commotion on the table, and the boxman missed making the bet up!

The specific rules of the different casino games in Indiana are governed by the relevant sections of the Indiana Administrative Code (IAC). One section in the IAC pertaining to rolls of the dice in a craps game is similar to the quoted New Jersey statute, though there are some differences.

In Indiana, the shooter shall throw 2 dice to the far end of the table "for the purpose of bouncing the dice off the backboard of the craps table." The shooter "must make a good faith attempt" to bounce the dice of the backboard.

The roll of the dice "shall" be deemed invalid in only two instances--that is when one or both of the dice go off the table or when more than two dice are thrown.

In all other instances, apparently, the stickperson has the "discretion" to declare the roll invalid. At least under Indiana law. I suppose the policy of the individual casino may have more explicit rules though such rules should not be contrary to the Administrative Code. One of those instances in which the stickperson "may" declare the roll invalid is if the shooter "does not make a good faith attempt to bounce the dice off the backboard and the dice are not thrown at least one-half of the length of the craps table."

In my experience at the craps table (which I suspect is much like most of the other members of this Forum), some stickpersons are quicker to chastise a shooter for a short roll while other stickpersons are more tolerant. And it also depends on the circumstances. Most shooters do try to bounce the dice off the backboard--in the words of the Indiana code, they are making a "good faith attempt." In the infrequent occurrence when a shooter is continually throwing short rolls and is clearly not making a good faith attempt, then the stickperson will certainly declare the roll invalid and, if necessary, take the dice away and pass it to the next shooter.

If the shooter is additionally trying to slide the dice across the table so that one or both dice do not roll or tumble, then the stickperson is much quicker to declare a "no roll" and take the dice away from the shooter.

I have discussed this with several tables games supervisors. At least with the supervisors that I have talked to (recognizing that other supervisors may have different views), the belief is that it is not possible to control the dice provided the dice are thrown properly in order that they both hit the backboard. On the other hand, short rolls or sliding the dice may result in controlled shooting, and such actions will not be tolerated or permitted.

Obviously, we all have seen countless instances when the stickperson declares a "no roll" before the dice come to rest. [I recall one time when I threw the dice and the stick declared a "no roll" thinking that I did not have a line bet. When it was pointed out to him that I did, in fact, have a line bet--on the Don't--then the stick reversed himself and allowed the roll to stand.]

In many hundreds (thousands?) hours of play in various casinos, I have personally NOT seen a declaration of "no roll" after the dice have come to rest with a known result. The New Jersey statute that is quoted states that the call of a "no roll" shall be made before the dice comes to rest "whenever possible." This suggests that it is conceivable that a call of "no roll" may be after the dice comes to rest. The IAC (Indiana code) does not have a similar requirement, so I would say that, legally, the roll may be declared invalid after the dice result is known. I just have personally not seen that happen.

Keep in mind, I am a Don't Player. So in the extreme event that a throw is declared invalid after the dice come to rest, then the result may have an opposite effect for me as opposed to the Do Players. That would certainly cause a great deal of turmoil at the table!

Thanks for the post Jimbo. Very well thought out and said.

Quote: Zcore13

You are a clown.

Name calling and violation of the board rules

Quote: Zcore13

Nothing you say on this board is based on fact.

Obviously false blanket statement. The true irony is that you may in fact be projecting some of your own issues here.

I am in Vegas this weekend naturally to gamble. Simple question Ahigh, should I bet with you and do you think I would have an advantage betting with you?

Honestly while I question many of your posts and theories, I am still open to proof or more importantly, profits.

I will be middle strip willing to play anywhere from Harrahs to PH, back to Ellis Island.