my first time playing craps in a casino (Dice Setting)
Yesterday was my first time playing craps in a casino ($5 table), I have been practicing my dice setting for about a hour a day for the past 3 weeks and I decided it was time to try it in action (I've watched the Golden Touch DVD set and read Casino craps) I started all my come out throws with the all seven set (five two on top and six's to the left) and all my other throws with the hardway set (fours on top, with twos facing me), almost all my throws landed 6-10 inches from the back wall and most of them just tapped the back wall and died (not all, I'm not perfect) but i think I was doing very well in terms of my form and consistency.
I tried to take good notes at the table. I was betting the pass line ($5), max odds (3,4,5) and place bets on 6 and 8 ($6). I used the five count for other players and then I made a place bet on the 8 for $6. At one point I was down $557 and at one point I was up $476 but at the end of my session I was down exactly $25
There were two mistakes that happened during the game,
1) I rolled a 12 and the dealer didn't take my $5 pass line bet, but she took everyone elses, I think it was a honest mistake
2) one time when I rolled a 10 on my come out roll, I put 5x odds down (im not sure why I did that) when the max was only 3x and no one said anything about it (I rolled a 7 the next roll and lost my Bet)
Another interesting thing (I thought) was that for a while it was just me and one other guy at the table who didn't want to roll, he was putting $600 on the 6 and 8, and $500 on the pass line, ($500 come bet with max odds each roll I was trying to hit my point), it was humbling to see someone betting that much money, I think he won around $5k and then left (was only there for 15 minutes)
I wrote down all my rolls, if anyone wants them you can PM me and I will tell you exactly the number of times I rolled each number with each set. I am going to go back next week and try again, craps is a fun game!
Quote: sodawaterYou're right, craps is a fun game.
And I think you will find it a lot more fun if you just play it for enjoyment, rather than trying to "influence" the dice and taking rigorous notes to search for retroactive patterns.
But maybe this is your way of enjoying the game, who knows?
However, if you want to adopt a rigorous approach to winning money at gambling, why not take up card counting? After all, that's proven to work.
I have spent a lot of time card counting, over the span of several years I have won and lost huge amounts of money, (mostly won) but I no longer enjoy blackjack because I looked at it as work for too long.
Craps is new and fun, and I don't think writing down my rolls takes anything away from the game, Dice setting gives me something to concentrate on and writing down my rolls is part of my OCD.
plus people at craps tables are much more energetic and into the game :)
The over odds thing these days at many casinos is not a big deal.Quote: Bondy3There were two mistakes that happened during the game,
2) one time when I rolled a 10 on my come out roll, I put 5x odds down (im not sure why I did that)
when the max was only 3x and no one said anything about it (I rolled a 7 the next roll and lost my Bet)
It used to be and some casinos will still enforce the max odds that are bet.
Most just treat the overage, as long as the dealers notice it and it is part of their job to notice it,
as a place bet on the point number.
So you had a $5/$15 odds on the Point10 and an extra $10 place bet on the 10.
Did you save your dice rolls in order as they were thrown?
The time series would be interesting to see
(example 7,11,5,6,8,5)
Good that you also saw what variance is all about with your bankroll swings.
How much of an edge do you think you have with your current DI talents?
Rock on!
Quote: 7crapsThe over odds thing these days at many casinos is not a big deal.
It used to be and some casinos will still enforce the max odds that are bet.
Most just treat the overage, as long as the dealers notice it and it is part of their job to notice it,
as a place bet on the point number.
So you had a $5/$15 odds on the Point10 and an extra $10 place bet on the 10.
Did you save your dice rolls in order as they were thrown?
The time series would be interesting to see
(example 7,11,5,6,8,5)
Good that you also saw what variance is all about with your bankroll swings.
How much of an edge do you think you have with your current DI talents?
Rock on!
I wrote down my throws in the order that they were thrown, but I don't think that matters so I only put into excel the number of times each number came up.
I have no idea if its even possible to get an edge with dice influencing, so far I have not seen any proof that anyone can do it, the people in the casino sure seemed to think it was a bunch of bullshit. I just wanted to try it
EDIT: I had two rolls that were more than 20 throws in a row between sevens, but I think thats all just randomness
The time series IS important. Especially for each game and each shooter's handQuote: Bondy3I wrote down my throws in the order that they were thrown, but I don't think that matters so I only put into excel the number of times each number came up.
A data set like
2:1
3:2
4:2
5:2
6:3
7:3
8:3
9:3
10:1
11:2
12:2
can be analyzed.
But it is lifeless, almost meaningless
But what if the rolls were like this:
Maybe Ahigh rolled this as he called out the numbers he was going to roll (something DIs do)
2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,6,8,8,8,9,9,9,10,11,11,12,12,7,7,7
would one be impressed??
Maybe
Quote: Bondy3if someone could call out the numbers that they were going to roll I would be impressed
I can call out the number I'm going to roll, on average, one out of six times!
Quote: Mission146I can call out the number I'm going to roll, on average, one out of six times!
The easiest way to meet that average is to repeatedly call out the same one number that averages one out of six times. If you do that, you will likely P.O. a lot of the players.
Quote: Mission146I can call out the number I'm going to roll, on average, one out of six times!
if you keep calling out 7 people are going to be pissed at you
Quote: DocThe easiest way to meet that average is to repeatedly call out the same one number that averages one out of six times. If you do that, you will likely P.O. a lot of the players.
LOL
I know, that's what I was referring to.
You may have seen this post already, but piss them off I did...
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12459-incredible-roll-0/#post206115
I didn't mean to do it, so I made a joke out of it. I forgot how superstitious people can be sometimes. The Dealer found it amusing, of course, I was tipping very well so he may have been liable to find anything I said amusing. I'm just kidding about the last part, he seemed like a really genuine guy.
Quote: Bondy3one time when I rolled a 10 on my come out roll, I put 5x odds down (im not sure why I did that) when the max was only 3x and no one said anything about it (I rolled a 7 the next roll and lost my Bet)
You don't want to repeat this. If the bet loses they take it all, but if it wins unfailingly they would notice you put down too many odds, return the excess, and only pay on the 3x obligated.
Quote:Another interesting thing (I thought) was that for a while it was just me and one other guy at the table who didn't want to roll, he was putting $600 on the 6 and 8, and $500 on the pass line, ($500 come bet with max odds each roll I was trying to hit my point), it was humbling to see someone betting that much money, I think he won around $5k and then left (was only there for 15 minutes)
He'll be looking for you next time he walks in! You'll have to start chattering about how some other guys who won big tipped you!
He seems to have just picked the right 15 minutes?
Quote: odiousgambitYou don't want to repeat this. If the bet loses they take it all, but if it wins unfailingly they would notice you put down too many odds, return the excess, and only pay on the 3x obligated.
im glad that never happened, I woulda been really pissed if they took my odds
Quote: VenthusHeh; I was over at Pechanga the other day and I noticed that the right half of the table were all don'ts and the left side was all dos. It was fine until we started a rotation to put a white on seven for the dealers each time. ("It's only weird when it doesn't work.") We got a 'What the hell's wrong with you guys?' from somebody who left in a huff. =P
thats all great till you roll midnight...
It's the dealer's job to return the 2x odds to you, not to take it. That's just being dishonest.
Quote: boymimboA good dealer crew would have returned your excess odds that you put on the 10, becasue they surely wouldn't pay you if it hit. You got ripped. And for new players who don't know the odds, this happens all of the time, where a player thinks it's 5x and will throw down 5x odds behind the 10 or 4 and then learn that it's 3x for the 10.
It's the dealer's job to return the 2x odds to you, not to take it. That's just being dishonest.
That one convenient benefit of 3-4-5x odds to a don't player... its always the same -- 6x lay.
Quote: Bondy3if you keep calling out 7 people are going to be pissed at you
Those people are free to leave at any time !
Quote: AnonEMooseThat one convenient benefit of 3-4-5x odds to a don't player... its always the same -- 6x lay.
true, but if your at a 10x odds table, as a dont player it gets complicated for a dont player (20x 15x 12x)
Also dont players have more variance
Quote: Bondy3Quote: odiousgambitYou don't want to repeat this. If the bet loses they take it all, but if it wins unfailingly they would notice you put down too many odds, return the excess, and only pay on the 3x obligated.
im glad that never happened, I woulda been really pissed if they took my odds
You mean your odds and your excess as a place bet on the point. It was in action, win or lose.
Quote: AyecarumbaQuote: Bondy3Quote: odiousgambitYou don't want to repeat this. If the bet loses they take it all, but if it wins unfailingly they would notice you put down too many odds, return the excess, and only pay on the 3x obligated.
im glad that never happened, I woulda been really pissed if they took my odds
You mean your odds and your excess as a place bet on the point. It was in action, win or lose.
every time this has happened to me in AC they either take it or pay it as odds bets. Most commonly at the revel when i bet 5x on a 3x or 4x number.
Quote: Bondy3dont players have more variance
Is that a known fact? the payout is less than the bet. Just wondering.
An easier way, IMO,Quote: Bondy3true, but if your at a 10x odds table, as a dont player it gets complicated for a dont player (20x 15x 12x)
to calculate the 10X odds or higher to lay, since some still get confused with $5 times 15
Just think what the pass line bettor does and wins.
10X lay odds example (you win $50 max with a $5 flat bet)
4/10 point
pass: $5 with $50 odds that pay $100
The don't player reads backwards.
I lay odds of $100 to win $50 with $5 flat (no multiplying needed)
5/9
pass: $5 with $50 odds that pay $75
The don't player still reads backwards.
I lay odds of $75 to win $50 with $5 flat
6/8
pass: $5 with $50 odds that pay $60
The don't player still reads backwards.
I lay odds of $60 to win $50 with $5 flat
Say one wants 16X lay odds ( max 20 to 100 odds table)
16X lay odds example (you win $80 max with a $5 flat bet)
4/10 point
pass: $5 with $80 odds that pay $160
The don't player reads backwards.
I lay odds of $160 to win $80 with $5 flat
5/9
pass: $5 with $80 odds that pay $120
The don't player still reads backwards.
I lay odds of $120 to win $80 with $5 flat
6/8
pass: $5 with $80 odds that pay $96 (extra 20%)
The don't player still reads backwards.
I lay odds of $96 to win $80 with $5 flat
Depends on your meaning of "more".Quote: Bondy3Also dont players have more variance
Counting pushes the variance is almost identical (unit bet with 10X odds)
Pass Line
variance: 116.8381839
st dev: 10.80917128
Don't Pass
variance: 116.8104201
st dev: 10.80788694
without pushes, a little more variance for the DP.
What IS true, is the DP player does bet more (greater handle)
How about 100 wagers per session
1 unit bet
10X odds
1 million session simulation
Don't Pass
Avg. Total amount bet . = 100.00
Avg. amount bet on Odds = 1028.59
Std-dev ending bankroll = 109.54
Bankroll decreased . . = 50.086% of the time
Bankroll increased . . = 49.556% of the time
Pass Line
Avg. Total amount bet . = 100.00
Avg. amount bet on Odds = 666.68
Std-dev ending bankroll = 108.00
Bankroll decreased . . = 50.560% of the time
Bankroll increased . . = 49.068% of the time
Good Lucks
Dice sliding can work for sure... too bad it is illegal or at least against game rules.
Quote: Bondy3Also dont players have more variance
Nope, as a fraction of the line bet it's slightly less; as a fraction of the total bet it's much less, since that bet is more. Keep in mind, other than those few one-unit pushes, the wins and losses mirror one another exactly.
Quote: Bondy3true, but if your at a 10x odds table, as a dont player it gets complicated for a dont player (20x 15x 12x)
Also dont players have more variance
Not true. For 60 bets, $5 pass, double odds and $5 DP, double odds have Standard Deviations only $1.50 apart.
For a small number of bets, they have different skews, but that difference gets smaller and smaller the more bets you make.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
When i am at the casino i keep track of my rolls and the number of 6 & 8's in those rolls.
The number of each rolls is important in that it dictates your betting. For instance if you are horse
crap today and your rolls are 3,7,5,9,2,4 that tells you that you are terrible, but it also tells you
the only numbers you can bet on are the ones that have the lowest edge ...6 & 8...
If you have 8, 15, 21,6,22,18 that tells you that you can bet on the 6 & 8 and even the 4 or 10 if the
vig is paid on a win or if the $1 vig can be pushed to $30, adding a come bet can also be used
in addition to the 6 & 8 which could put you on the 5,,4,9,or 10.
The number of 6 & 8's you throw is important to me because if i am at 30% or more i can increase
my starting position on 6 & 8..... if i am under 30% i decrease it.
At home i keep track of both dice with different colored dice because i want to see what the axis
control is on each die.... make what ever changes i can to equalize them.
Axis control and understanding is vital because if you use a standard hardway set you have 4 ways to
make a 7...... 3-4 4-3 2-5 5-2 if both dice are on axis..... now with the 3 v set you only have a 3-4 4-3
if both dice are on axis.......
That is why axis control and understanding means so much..... you can reduce the potential of a 7 50%
if you are on axis, and use the correct set.
dicesitter
Quote: dicesitterIf you have 8, 15, 21,6,22,18 that tells you that you can bet on the 6 & 8 and even the 4 or 10 if the
vig is paid on a win or if the $1 vig can be pushed to $30, adding a come bet can also be used
in addition to the 6 & 8 which could put you on the 5,,4,9,or 10.
I would love to see you roll a 15 or an 18 at a craps table!
Quote: AcesAndEightsI would love to see you roll a 15 or an 18 at a craps table!
This is an easy feat for even an amateur DI... as long as he just concentrates hard enough.
Quote: Ahighbut one ingredient a cake does not make.
Yoda?!? Lol ;p
I always love to see them. Last weekends trip, Saturday i had 5 rolls between 20-25, could not get a longer one, Sunday
was harder with none over 20. Last night was hard..... with a 7, 2,8,24,6... but as i
have indicated, axis control is key . there is ZERO potential to eliminate the 4/3 3/4 from any hardway set or
3v set//// almost a perfect toss can give you one of those time after time. that is why for me the 6 & 8 are so
important, last night i was about 34-35% so even though i did not have any great rolls i made decent money.
The 24 was 5 pass winners ( including 3.. 4's) and 8 ...6 & 8 in combination.
good rolling
dicesitter
Quote: dicesitterLast night was hard..... with a 7, 2,8,24,6...
There it is again! How did you roll a 24 with two 6-sided dice?
I'm poking fun, but honestly curious. Is the 24 supposed to represent a 6 with the 2 and 4 faces? That's what I initially thought, but in one of your previous posts you recorded an 18, which kind of blows a hole in that theory.
I am just curious if it is a typo (supposed to be two separate roles of 2,4) or if it signifies something I don't know.
Quote: AcesAndEightsQuote: dicesitterLast night was hard..... with a 7, 2,8,24,6...
There it is again! How did you roll a 24 with two 6-sided dice?
I'm poking fun, but honestly curious. Is the 24 supposed to represent a 6 with the 2 and 4 faces? That's what I initially thought, but in one of your previous posts you recorded an 18, which kind of blows a whole in that theory.
I am just curious if it is a typo (supposed to be two separate roles of 2,4) or if it signifies something I don't know.
LoL, He means he rolled 7 rolls, then 2, then 8, then 24 ROLLS...meaning he rolled 23 times + 7 out (if he counts that, it may have been 25 ACTUAL tosses)
Quote: dicesitterme to
I always love to see them. Last weekends trip, Saturday i had 5 rolls between 20-25, could not get a longer one, Sunday
was harder with none over 20. Last night was hard..... with a 7, 2,8,24,6... but as i
have indicated, axis control is key . there is ZERO potential to eliminate the 4/3 3/4 from any hardway set or
3v set//// almost a perfect toss can give you one of those time after time. that is why for me the 6 & 8 are so
important, last night i was about 34-35% so even though i did not have any great rolls i made decent money.
The 24 was 5 pass winners ( including 3.. 4's) and 8 ...6 & 8 in combination.
good rolling
dicesitter
I am curious about your overall betting strategy in regards to "so even though i did not have any great rolls i made decent money"
I struggle with my betting strategy and I want to improve that area of my craps playing.
Thanks.
Quote: imaginalI am curious about your overall betting strategy in regards to "so even though i did not have any great rolls i made decent money"
I struggle with my betting strategy and I want to improve that area of my craps playing.
Thanks.
Strategies work great in craps relative to other games because the edge is small.
If you can afford it, you can bet the 4 and 10 for $25 each, and the edge per roll is only 0.33333%. You have exactly a 50/50 chance for one of them to hit before being lost to a seven rolling (3 ways to win the four and 3 ways to win the 10 and 6 ways to lose).
It pays $49 for the $50 in risk you have up there.
You can build on top of this and increase your bets from here if you can afford it, and have a good basis for a betting strategy. The edge goes up to 0.416666% per roll when you get to $100 on each or at any point you have an even multiple of $20 instead of $25. There are details to rounding down the edges and which casinos do what but that's beyond the scope of this post.
But if you want a strategy that isn't affected by what the dice do (you pick the bets, not the dice), this is one of the best in my personal opinion.
You can martingale or Fibonacci on top of this strategy and it's more effective than most if you can afford it (IE: at Caesar's).
Low edges and bets that win half the time are key ingredients for simple strategies.
If you need lower amounts, main street station lets you buy the four and ten for $5 each and uses $0.25 chips (including vig on the win[!!!!]). You just gotta be sure to tell them to buy it so they break out the lammer.
Anecdotally, just betting the passline with no odds is ALMOST as low of an edge, and is much simpler, you just don't win as often and instead get paid even money. Just put a system on top of that.
Those who seek out the best edge for the long run pay the price in terms of being exposed to negative variance!
If you want to keep it simple, you can randomly pick the passline/don't pass line or the come or DC when you're ready to bet and don't take more than one bet at a time.
If you end up with a $160, $320, or even $640 passline, don't come, don't pass, or come bet, it does get exciting. But be prepared to LOSE and still have fun because it will happen faster than you might imagine!
Thanks for your response, very helpful.
I will start a new thread on my question...that is best I think.
Quote: TIMSPEED
LoL, He means he rolled 7 rolls, then 2, then 8, then 24 ROLLS...meaning he rolled 23 times + 7 out (if he counts that, it may have been 25 ACTUAL tosses)
Thank you! I feel pretty silly now, but I get it.
Now your question poses a problem for me, i could say i am speechless so i have to type, i could say i am baffled, i could say
i better go back to my normal craps site because i have never seen such lack of an interest in getting better at craps.
I guess i would say that, i will slow it down some..... 7 is a hand which has 7 rolls including the last 7......... 2 is a roll of
2 before a 7, 8 is a hand in which i rolled 8 times before a 7 out, 24 is a hand where i rolled 24 times before the 7 came,
that means the hand went something like 4,4,6,6 3,10,4,4,8 8 11,6,5,4 8,8,9,9,10 4,2,8,9,7 and then the final hand of the
night was 6 rolls.
Now that is about as simple as i can make it....
Last night i was 6,10,2,14,22 , that is 5 hands which ranged from 2 rolls to 22 rolls per hand.
dicesitter
Quote: dicesitteri have never seen such lack of an interest in getting better at craps.
Yup! You be preaching Jesus to the atheists!
Quote: dicesitterahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
i better go back to my normal craps site because i have never seen such lack of an interest in getting better at craps.
dicesitter
Dicesitter...I for one am seriously interested in getting better at craps. I would appreciate your insight into helping me get there!
Please join my thread:
