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Tiltpoul
Tiltpoul
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April 1st, 2012 at 5:22:58 AM permalink
Quote: mgreiche

It wasn't the worst, but a bone head move on my part. I was playing a double deck hand held game about a year ago. My first two cards were low cards and every time I indicated a hit, I continued to get low cards. Finally after asking for about four hits I miscounted my total and thought I had a 22. I threw my cards down to indicated I busted, but the dealer and everyone at the table said almost at the same time I had a 21.



That reminds me of a dealer error once that caused a $120 swing in my favor.

I was down at Isle of Capri in Lula, MS (YEARS ago) and was playing double deck blackjack (dealt face up from a shoe). The dealer's up card was small (a 5 or 6), and I split my two cards. I doubled on both, getting a 19 and 20. The dealer turned over an Ace, then proceeded to take a small card to reduce to 12, then a few other small cards. The LAST card she took was a 5, which at first, everybody though added up to 21 (myself included.).

Right before she started collecting money, I couldn't help but feel the combination of cards was wrong. Sure enough, the dealer DID have a point count of 17, before she took the last 5. After calling the supervisor over, he confirmed, and my $60 loss turned into a $60 win.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
DJTeddyBear
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April 1st, 2012 at 5:46:02 AM permalink
Quote: JB

What happened next was like a Phil Hellmuth outburst: the young hotshot guy immediately gets up from his seat, pointing out that I took the dealer's bust card, . . . .

I learned a valuable lesson that day: don't play at a blackjack table unless the only other person there is the dealer!

You played it right, but you should have learned to not sit at third base.



Quote: mgreiche

. . . . I miscounted my total and thought I had a 22. I threw my cards down to indicated I busted, but the dealer and everyone at the table said almost at the same time I had a 21.

Did you get paid for your winning hand?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
ewjones080
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April 1st, 2012 at 6:58:13 AM permalink
Quote: PopCan

It is unethical to give advice that is clearly wrong, but I'm sure the dealer in those situations believes he is correct. An uneducated dealer is one of the worst blackjack players around. They hear every possible superstition and incorrect assumption from their players. Those ideas plant in their heads and they start to notice all the times those assumptions prove true and fail notice when they don't. Your average dealer truly believes insuring a good hand is the right thing to do, that even money is smart, surrender is stupid, and that the guy on third base just took his bust card.

What I find the most unethical is when dealers allow a new/uneducated/drunk player to make an extremely obvious, extremely bad play without a polite confirmation. The Wizard's example of the player hitting a soft 20 is a great example. The dealer should have pointed out the guest had a 20 and then asked if he still wanted to hit. Ditto when players attempt stand on soft 16 and below. On the flip side, nothing is worse than the dealer criticizing a play, even if it's wrong. "You really want to hit that 13 against my 3? You're going to take my bust card and cause the whole table to lose."



Since I've been dealing, I've realized it's pretty easy to believe in bad moves. I went to play once, and I almost doubled my hard 8 vs bust card on a six deck H17 game because I see people do it all the time. I've almost done other bad moves, like not double a hand I should, because I'll start to think.."I've lost so many of my doubles tonight" .. but logic still somehow prevails.

I imagine dealers that give bad advice are older and started out as players themselves. There's seasoned players I've come across that think "the book" is BS and written by casino execs... of course they don't even know what "the book" is (which I presume came from Ed Thorpe's Beat The Dealer in the 60's)..



Of course I've seen EVERY bad move.. I've seen ONCE a guy double down his Blackjack... and win of course.
mgreiche
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April 1st, 2012 at 8:21:19 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

You played it right, but you should have learned to not sit at third base.



Did you get paid for your winning hand?




I'm pretty sure the dealer busted...
seviay
seviay
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April 1st, 2012 at 11:13:14 AM permalink
Quote: winmonkeyspit3

Was playing at a $25 blackjack table and this dude comes over and announces to the table that he just lost 800 in 5 minutes in roulette. He buys 500 in green, bets 300 on the first hand. Gets a 15 vs. dealer's 8, pulls out another hundred from a wad in his pocket and says double down. Dealer says to him "you must know something that I don't know". Deals him a 10 for 25. Guy curses under his breath and leaves the table. UN-believable what some people will do with their money.


That definitely beats the worst I've seen, but I was at a table where a guy kept doubling down on 12/13 against dealer 10s, but he would stay on things like 15, 16, and soft 17 against a dealer 10. We never could figure out what he was doing, just had to hope he would bust out and leave. Doubling on 15 is amazing, even more so with a big bet out. Love it
NicksGamingStuff
NicksGamingStuff
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April 1st, 2012 at 11:38:52 AM permalink
Last night a guy got a Q and a 10, I had a 5 up. I assumed he was going to stay so I flipped over my card and took another 10 and busted. He said hey I was going to split. I said I could call over a floorman and get your split for you. He said never mind, took his win and left. :( I try to not have dissatisfied customers. I told my floorman what happened and he laughed.
jeffwarren75
jeffwarren75
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April 1st, 2012 at 12:23:43 PM permalink
omg funny this thread is here, last night I was playing spanish 21 had pressed and had a 1000 bet up against dealer 8 got 11 doubled for a 9 for 20

guy playing two spots for 15 each hits his hard 17 pull a 3 and smiles then doubles his hand next to it which has a 2- and a 4 for a total fo six, get a 5 and then surrenders it dealer turns the his hole card which is a 6 and get a seven for 21, next card out of shoe is a ten, long story short i can 86'd for 24 hours for telling the guy he is a total ahole and I hope he losses every cent of his welfare money
WongBo
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April 1st, 2012 at 4:18:15 PM permalink
Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Last night a guy got a Q and a 10, I had a 5 up. I assumed he was going to stay so I flipped over my card and took another 10 and busted. He said hey I was going to split. I said I could call over a floorman and get your split for you. He said never mind, took his win and left. :( I try to not have dissatisfied customers. I told my floorman what happened and he laughed.



what was the count?
i split tens against 5 on a TC of +5
he probably left so your floorman wouldn't tell security to run a skills check
In a bet, there is a fool and a thief. - Proverb.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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April 1st, 2012 at 8:19:13 PM permalink
Quote: JB

What happened next was like a Phil Hellmuth outburst: the young hotshot guy immediately gets up from his seat, pointing out that I took the dealer's bust card, and starts shouting to everyone in the vicinity about how I was such an idiot because I doubled down on 18. He continued to verbally express his disbelief at my "stupidity" to anyone willing to listen for the next several minutes.



Sometimes the world seems besieged by angry know-it-all's who don't know anything. What would he have done if you doubled against a dealer 9 (which would be correct for certain rules)? Would he have punched you?

In my saddest post I have made on this site, I told a story about a know-it-all who got someone killed on a sea test in the early 90's. Wouldn't you know it, the dead man's son, who was a toddler at the time, joined this site and responded about his anger at losing his father as a child, and learning that no one was punished for it as an adult.

Quote: jburks1

Thanks to this dummy who told my dad to remove the saften pin before launching the device took my fathers life. I pray that he will have nightmares till the day he dies for what he has done. He took two innocent men's lives for nothing.

JB
Administrator
JB
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April 1st, 2012 at 8:39:16 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

angry know-it-all's who don't know anything


There have been several occasions where that term could apply to me.

Quote: pacomartin

In my saddest post I have made on this site, I told a story about a know-it-all who got someone killed on a sea test in the early 90's. Wouldn't you know it, the dead man's son, who was a toddler at the time, joined this site and responded about his anger at losing his father as a child, and learning that no one was punished for it as an adult.


That is sad. I didn't see that when it was originally posted.
FourFiveFace
FourFiveFace
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April 1st, 2012 at 9:29:25 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Sometimes you're made to feel like the biggest mistake is playing correctly. At Foxwoods a few years ago I was playing two hands of blackjack (8 decks, S17, DAS, Surrender) at a $25 table, the two hands right before the dealer. Some hotshot young guy approached the table and sat down just to my right. I think he bought in for $300 or $400 and played a few hands. Then he had $200 left, and bet $100. The dealer's upcard was a 6; this guy's initial two cards totalled 8. He asked me if he should double down. I advised against it; he proceeded to double down anyway, betting the rest of his buyin. I don't recall what card he got, as it wasn't relevant. I played my first hand, which I also don't remember. My second hand was a soft 18 (again, the dealer was showing a 6): correct strategy is to double, which I did. I got an 8, making 16. The dealer revealed a 10 in the hole, and then a 4 when she hit, making 20.

What happened next was like a Phil Hellmuth outburst: the young hotshot guy immediately gets up from his seat, pointing out that I took the dealer's bust card, and starts shouting to everyone in the vicinity about how I was such an idiot because I doubled down on 18. He continued to verbally express his disbelief at my "stupidity" to anyone willing to listen for the next several minutes.

I learned a valuable lesson that day: don't play at a blackjack table unless the only other person there is the dealer!



I had a similar situation where someone bitched at me for doubling soft 18 against a 6. It wasn't quite Hellmuth-like, but he was muttering about how I was "greedy" for making that move.

Anyways, a week or so ago, I was playing at mostly full table. One guy at third base was all over the place, doing a lot of plays by feel. The big doozy was when he doubled soft 13 against a dealer 10. You'll never guess what card he drew.

Quote: seviay

That definitely beats the worst I've seen, but I was at a table where a guy kept doubling down on 12/13 against dealer 10s, but he would stay on things like 15, 16, and soft 17 against a dealer 10. We never could figure out what he was doing, just had to hope he would bust out and leave. Doubling on 15 is amazing, even more so with a big bet out. Love it



See, I come across these people every once in awhile, and they perplex the hell out of me. Most people who play the wrong way, I can understand their thought process. People who are inconsistently bad, they just leave me scratching my head.
konceptum
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April 2nd, 2012 at 1:34:47 PM permalink
Quote: JB

What happened next was like a Phil Hellmuth outburst:


Not sure if this qualifies as a dumb play, but your comment reminded me of it.

Was playing blackjack at a full table. The dealer has a 6 showing, and everybody has stand pat hands. But, a guy in the middle of the table who has a 12, wants a card. The woman sitting to the right of me explodes in a screaming tirade against the stupidity of drawing a card. I think everyone at the table was a bit shocked that this guy wanted to hit, but all of us were a bit cowed by the screaming woman. The dealer asks the guy if he's sure he wants a card. To his credit, the guy appeared to be doing his best to ignore the screaming woman. He nodded. And was dealt a 2. Almost instantly, the woman on my right quiets down. Her arguments about his taking the dealer's bust card have gone out the window. It doesn't end there. Amazingly, the guy signals to hit again. Now the woman leaps out of her chair. Her voice even louder than before. Pit boss is on the phone, security is walking over. She is yelling and screaming about how stupid the guy is. The dealer again asks for confirmation, and the man, seemingly finally noticing the screaming woman, still nods that he wants a card. And gets dealt a 3. Then he stays, everyone else stayed, and the dealer has 16, draws a 10 and busts.

When the dealer busted, I think every one of us, other than the man, looked at the hysterical woman. Her face was bright red from all the screaming. I think we all either wanted to make a comment, or wanted her to make some sort of apology. But she just brushed herself down, and didn't say a word. After the payouts were made, I heard the pit boss (attempting to whisper in her ear) say to her, "If this table is going to be too much for you, you may want to consider moving to a different table." I felt like he made a nodding motion toward the security personnel who were standing nearby. She got the message.

The man continued to make some weird hits and stays, not seemingly in line with any kind of card counting, and most of them did not go in his favor. The woman was still noticeably agitated by his actions, and within 10 minutes or so, left the table.
JohnnyQ
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April 2nd, 2012 at 2:28:13 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Now the woman leaps out of her chair. Her voice even louder than before.



What I don't understand here is why the casino let her
continue to play even though she made a complete horse's
ass out of herself, and made the entire table uncomfortable.

It seems as often as not that the idiots complaining about
someone's play are not even playing correct basic strategy
themselves on every hand. Go figger.
There's emptiness behind their eyes There's dust in all their hearts They just want to steal us all and take us all apart
DanMahowny
DanMahowny
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April 2nd, 2012 at 2:36:39 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

It seems as often as not that the idiots complaining about
someone's play are not even playing correct basic strategy
themselves on every hand. Go figger.



Yep. People complain about my play occasionally, and I play stone cold perfect basic strategy. Funny, before I learned basic strategy, I can't remember ANYONE complaining about my play decisions.
"I don't have a gambling problem. I have a financial problem."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 2nd, 2012 at 2:37:08 PM permalink
Quote: JohnnyQ

What I don't understand here is why the casino let her
continue to play even though she made a complete horse's
ass



The casino considers all of us to be horses
asses, just some are bigger than others.
They can't get our money if they kick us
out, so they tolerate a lot of rude behavior.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
pacomartin
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April 2nd, 2012 at 4:03:27 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Not sure if this qualifies as a dumb play, but your comment reminded me of it. Was playing blackjack at a full table. The dealer has a 6 showing, and everybody has stand pat hands. But, a guy in the middle of the table who has a 12, wants a card.



I think it is how some people are taught blackjack. Sometimes people are told the one who gets closest to 21 wins the game. BTW you can't go over 21. He just thinks a 16 is closer to 21 than 12.

I think it would be a good exercise to sit down with the infinite deck analysis, and write down a list of all the plays in basic strategy.
I will break them up into ones that are intuitive to a well reasoned argument, and tear apart the ones that are non-intuitive. It should be possible to explain to people exactly where the advantage comes from.

It would be lengthy as many choices are complex. For instance a player 12 against a dealer up card 4, would look like

You should hit when your composition is a 10 and a 2, which happens the majority of the time when you have a 12,
but in the other cases the advantage is to hit. The extra advantage outweighs the smaller percentage of occurrences, so the abbreviated rule is to stand on a player 12 against a dealer 4.

It may not be worth the trouble.
Tiltpoul
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April 2nd, 2012 at 4:10:15 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

I think it is how some people are taught blackjack. Sometimes people are told the one who gets closest to 21 wins the game. BTW you can't go over 21. He just thinks a 16 is closer to 21 than 12...

It should be possible to explain to people exactly where the advantage comes from...

It may not be worth the trouble.



You can't teach a drunk dog any tricks. In fact, you can't teach a dumb dog any tricks either, but you might be able to get the dumb dog to drink.

It's definitely not worth the trouble for the customers who like to blow up. They don't/won't care.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
FourFiveFace
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April 2nd, 2012 at 4:10:47 PM permalink
I like reading blackjack articles that attempt to explain the logic behind basic strategy plays in addition to the math. I don't think "because the math says so" cuts the mustard for the average Joe or Jane.
Nareed
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April 2nd, 2012 at 4:45:06 PM permalink
Quote: FourFiveFace

I don't think "because the math says so" cuts the mustard for the average Joe or Jane.



You can show the average person all the math you want and you may convince a few. But let one moron say "you know, the casinos wrote the strategy card," and back he goes to irrational play.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
buzzpaff
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April 2nd, 2012 at 8:28:44 PM permalink
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him split 8's against a 10.
pacomartin
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April 2nd, 2012 at 8:40:30 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

You can show the average person all the math you want and you may convince a few. But let one moron say "you know, the casinos wrote the strategy card," and back he goes to irrational play.



My friend, who is quite brilliant in many ways, used to draw to an inside straight in video poker. She didn't dispute the math, as anyone can see that if you draw to an outside straight, you have two possibilities of completing the straight, while an inside straight only has one possibility. She just felt it was a bigger challenge, and she gleefully pointed out every time she made it.

She clearly didn't see the game as a series of probabilities, but as a personal challenge, like she was playing a sport (she was a very competitive athlete). She simply didn't care about the odds.
ShiftyRicky
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April 2nd, 2012 at 8:40:38 PM permalink
I shouldn't tell anyone this...lol, the other day i was killing time and playing BJ all by myself (i think that fact is important...at least it helps me stomach this) and I decided to play like the "drunken idiot" that can't loose. I was doing basically everything wrong...on purpose, AND WAS WINNING, and of course with winning comes the pressing of the bet. As i begin to bet more and more I found myself on auto pilot and playing damn near perfect BS. This cost me my entire stack as i lost every double and anything else. lol, The funny part is that I play at this casino all the time, know the entire TG staff and they kept asking me if i was drunk or something ( i was stone cold sober). The best part was i didn't care....i have talked about doing this for some time, strictly for fun. I can say it was some fun,watching my stack(s) go up and down and just laughing at all the dumb crap i was trying...i mean nothing was off limits for me to try. results=200loss/1hr of laughs and smiles.

Don't worry I am better now and had a decent DD session the next day. lol
"Does the sign outside still say Casino?...okay then"
Nareed
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April 2nd, 2012 at 9:08:52 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

She clearly didn't see the game as a series of probabilities, but as a personal challenge, like she was playing a sport (she was a very competitive athlete). She simply didn't care about the odds.



I see no problem with making the wrong play so long as you know it's "wrong." That is to say, you can make the bet with the lesser EV, as long as you know that's what you're doing.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
pacomartin
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April 2nd, 2012 at 11:50:13 PM permalink
Quote: Nareed

I see no problem with making the wrong play so long as you know it's "wrong."



The mindset is totally different. We say the move is "wrong" because it has a lower EV. She just views it as a "challenge". There is no argument, because she is perfectly aware that the odds are much lower.
DJTeddyBear
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April 4th, 2012 at 7:13:07 AM permalink
Quote: DanMahowny

Funny, before I learned basic strategy, I can't remember ANYONE complaining about my play decisions.

Wow. What a spot-on, and yet sad, comment...

Quote: buzzpaff

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him split 8's against a 10.

That should be somebody's signature line.

Quote: Nareed

I see no problem with making the wrong play so long as you know it's "wrong." That is to say, you can make the bet with the lesser EV, as long as you know that's what you're doing.

I have a hard time hitting on 16. If I can't surrender (and it's not a pair of 8s), I'll stand. Except when the dealer has an Ace up, cause I figure then he's got two chances to beat me.

But I tell the other players that I play that way, every time, and they generally accept my statement and reasoning.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
boymimbo
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April 4th, 2012 at 10:33:15 AM permalink
Well, DJ, I think your reasoning is fine on a 16 v 10, but not so fine on a 7, 8, or 9.

But you know this.

One of the dumbest plays I see is the frickin' blind bet in Caribbean Stud. My wife has taken up to doing it sometimes and it drives me bonkers. How did I marry this woman? 16.61% HA by playing blind. That's like throwing away a $1 on each bet on a $5 table... oh wait, that's the same dollar you throw away on the jackpot meter.

Out of the woodwork will come, "you know, it's a good play if the dealer hasn't been qualifying!" Well, you know, that's like trying to predict numbers in roulette.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Kellynbnf
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April 4th, 2012 at 11:00:06 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

Well, DJ, I think your reasoning is fine on a 16 v 10, but not so fine on a 7, 8, or 9.



I agree; although 8 out of 13 card ranks will bust a 16, against a 7 the dealer's most likely hand is a 17 so if you manage to not bust you'll be in decent shape. Against a dealer 10 the dealer's most likely hand is a 20, so you are less likely to win even if you don't bust (and why it's a very close decision between hitting vs. standing and hoping the dealer busts). Against an Ace (because there can't be a 10 in the hole) the likely dealer hands are more diffused, but with having two chances to make a hand before busting the bust rate is much lower with a dealer Ace (making hitting the right decision vs. standing).
timberjim
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April 4th, 2012 at 12:52:49 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo



One of the dumbest plays I see is the frickin' blind bet in Caribbean Stud. .



The last time I played this, two guys sitting oppisite me were playing this way and literally piling up the chips as I was getting killed!!!! I knew it was time to leave when I seriously considered playing blind.

Speaking of wifes, it drives my wife crazy when we play 3 card poker and I look at my cards. If the first one is an ace or a king, I simply play it without looking at the rest. It is fun to watch her squirm because she wants so badly to reach over and look at my cards.
rdw4potus
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April 4th, 2012 at 1:00:46 PM permalink
Quote: timberjim


Speaking of wifes, it drives my wife crazy when we play 3 card poker and I look at my cards. If the first one is an ace or a king, I simply play it without looking at the rest. It is fun to watch her squirm because she wants so badly to reach over and look at my cards.



I play 3 card that same way. It's pretty much the only way to make the game interesting enough to play.

I saw, and I guess created, horribly bad play on 3 card last week, but it was totally unintentional. We (the table) were teaching this girl how to play, and we told her to play Q-high or better (I couldn't talk the others into Q-6-4). It turns out that she was folding straights and flushes that were <Q-high. D'oh!
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
boymimbo
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April 4th, 2012 at 1:07:32 PM permalink
1st time Let It Ride players are pretty awful too. I've seen people "let it ride" when it was impossible to get a hand (ie, 2 5 7 9 unsuited). I've seen people push a bet back when they've already got a winning hand (pair of 10s or better).

Then there was the dealer that chided me over attempting to help someone who was playing awfully at Let it Ride. How dare I give them advice. Of course, they are right, but the dealer should be offering help.

And as for Let it Ride, Caribbean, or 3 Card, if I see that I have a hand that I'm going to play on, I don't look at the remaining cards, to add to excitement (10s or better, any pair, Q-6-4 or higher).
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
FourFiveFace
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April 5th, 2012 at 9:49:00 AM permalink
I've played with people that played Caribbean Stud or Three Card blind until take one loss (not sure if that means any loss, or just a loss with a hand they wouldn't have played otherwise). Figure if you get a little lucky, you can keep collecting the ante as the dealer keeps failing to qualify. Never tried it myself, but it always intrigued me. Obviously the house edge jumps up, but I can see where people might give it a shot if they can afford to take that one loss.
buzzpaff
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April 5th, 2012 at 9:59:08 AM permalink
I usually stand on 16 versus a 10. Just hate to get a 4, think I have ducked a bullet, but instead of the expected dealer 20, he has a stiff but hits it for a 21 GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

And if playing one of SWITCH's games, would be really pissed to hit a 16, get a 5 for 21, then dealers gets 22 and we push. WTF !!
charliepatrick
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April 5th, 2012 at 10:39:06 AM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

I usually stand on 16 versus a 10...if...dealers gets 22 and we push.

I think it's better to hit marginal hands on versions where the 22 is a push (for instance hit 12 vs 4, personally I always hit all 12s) and the difference for 16 vs 10 is even bigger than in regular BJ. With Burn 20 it can be even more annoying when the dealer throws away a 20 and proceeds to make 21 instead!
buzzpaff
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April 5th, 2012 at 11:00:12 AM permalink
Hell, someone inventor out there is probably working on a version where the BJ dealer has to qualify !
Gee, if Switch or Mr.CasinoGames are doing that ,I better apologize right now. LOL
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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April 5th, 2012 at 12:12:52 PM permalink
Quote: buzzpaff

...a version where the BJ dealer has to qualify...

There already is one - see three card blackjack !
ewjones080
ewjones080
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April 5th, 2012 at 12:31:15 PM permalink
I heard this story from a floor. The dealer called her over, and there were maybe four or five players, and the dealer had flipped over her hand, and had like a hard 15 (the 10 was the hole card). Floor was called cause the lady at first base wanted to split or hit or something. Floor had the dealer finish the hand, she drew a 10 to bust herself. Standard procedure says to then ask any players if they want out of the hand, they can pull their money back. The woman on third base PULLED HER MONEY. The floor made it very clear to her that she was going to get paid if she decided to stay in the hand, or she could pull out and not get anything, and the woman pulls out anyway. Very strange when I heard it. It was almost out of spite she decided not to get paid, since she didn't get to play her hand like she wanted.
konceptum
konceptum
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April 5th, 2012 at 1:06:33 PM permalink
Quote: FourFiveFace

I like reading blackjack articles that attempt to explain the logic behind basic strategy plays in addition to the math. I don't think "because the math says so" cuts the mustard for the average Joe or Jane.


Everyone is probably different on what they would require to believe anything.

I know when I first learned blackjack, many years ago, I was taught that you always assume the dealer's hole card is a 10, and all judgements on how you should play your hand are based on that. Playing in this manner didn't allow me to enjoy the game.

Now, I see that this policy doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But, it still wasn't enough for me for someone to say, you should double on certain types of hands and not on others. The only thing that worked for me was seeing a comparison. If you double, you're expected return is x. If you hit, it's y. If you stand, it's z. Which is best? Seeing these numbers for the various possibilities allowed me to see that doubling was better in certain circumstances.

But that was me. The average recreational player is probably only ever going to consider one possibility: that the dealer has a 10 in the hole. All decisions should be based on this. No matter how much math you show them, they are never going to understand anything different.
1BB
1BB
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April 5th, 2012 at 5:25:09 PM permalink
Assuming that the dealer has a 10 in the hole is one of the most common myths in blackjack. Many players are surprised to learn that it only occurs slightly over 30% of the time. If all decisions were truly based on this players would be surrendering or hitting hard 17s, 18s and 19s as well as buying insurance every time the dealer showed an ace.

I do realize that this is used as a reminder for inexperienced players to hit against a 7 or higher until they get a hard 17 or break. In that context perhaps it's not the worst thing they could be thinking.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
PopCan
PopCan
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April 5th, 2012 at 10:33:56 PM permalink
Over several years of dealing various games I estimate I dealt around half a million hands of blackjack. Of all those hands I can only think of two where I remember what every player had. On one particular hand I dealt four people and myself a blackjack. Here is the other hand I remember:

I was still a break-in working the morning shift. It was freezing outside so when I pushed into my first game of the day, a double deck (pitch) game, I could barely feel my fingers. There were three friends taking up the first three spots and a middle aged women on third base. I dealt the first card to each, then a 10 as my upcard. I dealt the second card to each, but as I pitched third base's second card somehow the next card, my hole card, slid right off the deck. It landed on its edge facing first base then gently flopped faced down. I quickly tucked it under my upcard like nothing happened.

I turned towards first base praying he didn't catch a glimpse of my hole card. He tosses his two cards in and says "surrender". He had a 17. Guy in seat two then immediately tosses in his 13, "surrender". Seat three shows his cards to first base and first base motions with his head towards me. Seat three tosses in his cards, "surrender". He had a 19.

Now I turn to third base. The woman looks at her cards for a second and first base asks, "What do you have?" She shows the table her 16. All at once the three other players yell, "SURRENDER!" As she's tucking her cards she says, "Surrender is like throwing your money away!". I quickly flip over the hole card (a Queen) and take her money, trying not to laugh.
NFS
NFS
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April 6th, 2012 at 1:17:02 AM permalink
Playing at Reno (can't remember the casino). We're all slightly drunk and having a good time. I'm not playing but I'm standing behind a relative who's playing on 3rd base.

The dealer just finished clarifying some rules with a player and mentions he can double on any of his first 2 cards. He says "ANY?" and the dealer agrees.

His next hand out he got dealt a natural. THE PLAYER ASKS TO DOUBLE. The dealer was thrown off and calls over the PB. The player and the PB talked for a little bit (can't remember what was said), and decides to allow the player to double. He gets a face card.

A player to his left gets upset and says he "threw off the order of the deck" by making this play. I'm standing behind him. He ends up busting (but wouldn't have if the guy didn't double), and the dealer busts. The guy becomes furious for losing his bet due to the guy's play. Awkward situation since we were all getting along just a minute ago, but a few rounds later he perks up.
i0r0retardod
i0r0retardod
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April 6th, 2012 at 4:49:56 AM permalink
Quote: FourFiveFace

There's common mistakes that people make, and then there's staying on 12-13 against a dealer high card, which I have seen before. Next-closest would probably be doubling down on 6 (against a bust card, but still...). I almost saw someone split fives, but she finally decided to double-down.



Worst play ever, hitting a 19, I got a 21. Next is splitting tens in a negative count hitting for 12 doubling and pulling a 9 for 21. Then hit for 14 on the other doubling and pulling a 7 for 21.

I have even stood on A-5 against a dealer 6 in a high negative count after seeing the next card which was the dealers. I thought I peeked a adealer whole of 9 which I was right, flipped for 15 hit for 25. I had $250 out so I thought better safe than sorry.

Now the worst play I have ever ever witnessed would be my sister. I had been sleeping all day and go meet my sister at the table. She said she had not seen an ace for 5 rounds, (there was a total of 5 players at the table not including me). Anyways she pulls a twenty and says them aces should start spitting out like candy, "double down". The whole table erupted in a low rumble of incoherant drunken words. She gets the ace for 21 from a natural 20. My sister was the second hand and the other three +dealer pulled and ace. Dealer busted out all was forgiven. I shit my pants. She was flat betting $125, and from 17 years of live blackjack play and 39 years total blackjack she was doing beyond great. lol
HKrandom
HKrandom
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April 6th, 2012 at 5:39:03 AM permalink
My friend plays a lot of blackjack and he always takes insurance, he never splits and he never doubles down because he doesn't want to risk too much money on one hand, yet he often raises his bets when he loses several hands in a row. I told him he would be better off sticking to baccarat (1% HE, no strategy, no need to raise bets) but he keeps telling me the odds at blackjack are better. If I ask him fast enough before he hits, he usually lets me double down his hand with my money (eg. 11 vs 6, it pisses me off so much every times I see him hit that!!) so at least I get some good EV from him. On top of that he randomly decides to hit or stand on 12-16 regardless of the dealer's up card. He doesn't even play with a player's card because he doesn't care about points. I guess this kind of players is the reason why blackjack is still profitable for casinos.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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April 6th, 2012 at 5:41:13 AM permalink
Just this past Tuesday at Bally's AC, at the $1/$1 No Limit poker table. I wasn't in the hand.

The lady to my left started the hand with about $100. After she called the turn, she was heads up with a guy I had pegged as a bluffer. But that's irrelevant. After she called the turn bet, she had $1 left.

On the river she checked, the other guy started to push $1 in. Before he actually bet it, I started to moan, "Aw, c'mon. Do you really wanna take her last buck?" He hesitated, but did drop the $1 in the pot.

The lady then starts to think a LONG time about calling. I'm thinking, and I'm sure everyone else is too, "You already put $100 into this monster pot. Even if you're beat, isn't it worth one lousy buck to find out what he has?" Obviously, we can't say that out loud.

The board was fairly mixed. No flush or pairs, the other guy MIGHT have gotten a runner-runner straight.

While she's thinking, she looks at her cards again, holding them in a manner so that I can see it. She has Ace, Five. She made bottom pair. Even bluffers hit cards occasionally, so I know she's beat. But it's still worth a buck to see, right?

She folds! She folds for ONE DOLLAR!

She throws her cards to the muck, grabs her last chip and purse and is gone.

As the dealer is pushing the pot the other guy turns his cards up.

Sure enough, he was bluffing. He had Ace Queen, but no pair.

If that lady had allowed curiosity to get the best of her and "throw away" her last dollar, she would have taken the pot.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
duffytootx
duffytootx
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April 6th, 2012 at 7:05:20 AM permalink
Approx. 35 years ago, I was playing 3 hands at the Union Plaza It was very early in the AM and I was winning like crazy, splitting, doubling and most of the time ...... just being lucky. The only other player at the table was an older gentleman who was very drunk and losing most every hand he played. The poor guy didn't even know how to play good basic stategy. He stopped for a few hands and watched me play my 3 hands. I think each time I had at least one hand to split and then to double it. Some of the others were normal doubles. I was lucky enough to catch the dealer breaking most every hand.

Finally, the gentleman across from me got back in the game. The first hand he caught was two facecards. He immediately turned them up and said "double down". The dealer tried her best to talk him out of it as did the pit boss. They both recognized thay he was too drunk to know what he was doing. Well, he insisted on doubling ........... and caught an Ace. The gentleman put his chips in his pocket and called it a night.

That was the worst play I ever witnessed but it is also one that I will never forget.
NFS
NFS
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April 6th, 2012 at 3:03:52 PM permalink
Quote: i0r0retardod

Anyways she pulls a twenty and says them aces should start spitting out like candy, "double down". The whole table erupted in a low rumble of incoherant drunken words. She gets the ace for 21 from a natural 20. My sister was the second hand and the other three +dealer pulled and ace. Dealer busted out all was forgiven. I shit my pants. She was flat betting $125, and from 17 years of live blackjack play and 39 years total blackjack she was doing beyond great. lol



She should've split. But then again I guess that's what makes this the worst play you've ever witnessed. LOL.
Triplell
Triplell
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April 6th, 2012 at 3:14:30 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Just this past Tuesday at Bally's AC, at the $1/$1 No Limit poker table. I wasn't in the hand.

The lady to my left started the hand with about $100. After she called the turn, she was heads up with a guy I had pegged as a bluffer. But that's irrelevant. After she called the turn bet, she had $1 left.

On the river she checked, the other guy started to push $1 in. Before he actually bet it, I started to moan, "Aw, c'mon. Do you really wanna take her last buck?" He hesitated, but did drop the $1 in the pot.

The lady then starts to think a LONG time about calling. I'm thinking, and I'm sure everyone else is too, "You already put $100 into this monster pot. Even if you're beat, isn't it worth one lousy buck to find out what he has?" Obviously, we can't say that out loud.

The board was fairly mixed. No flush or pairs, the other guy MIGHT have gotten a runner-runner straight.

While she's thinking, she looks at her cards again, holding them in a manner so that I can see it. She has Ace, Five. She made bottom pair. Even bluffers hit cards occasionally, so I know she's beat. But it's still worth a buck to see, right?

She folds! She folds for ONE DOLLAR!

She throws her cards to the muck, grabs her last chip and purse and is gone.

As the dealer is pushing the pot the other guy turns his cards up.

Sure enough, he was bluffing. He had Ace Queen, but no pair.

If that lady had allowed curiosity to get the best of her and "throw away" her last dollar, she would have taken the pot.



You may have influenced the decision...for that, you should feel bad.

Jokes aside, I ran into a similiar situation before. This guy was bluffing into me, and I knew he didn't have anything. On the turn, he raises all but about $9 of his stack. I repush him all in. He folds $9 to win $800, and reloads afterwards. I'm not sure why he even folded, but I didn't care. I got to throw my cards in the muck and scoop the pot.
dwheatley
dwheatley
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April 6th, 2012 at 3:24:57 PM permalink
Quote: PopCan



Now I turn to third base. The woman looks at her cards for a second and first base asks, "What do you have?" She shows the table her 16. All at once the three other players yell, "SURRENDER!" As she's tucking her cards she says, "Surrender is like throwing your money away!". I quickly flip over the hole card (a Queen) and take her money, trying not to laugh.



This is a good story. Well-written, gave me a good chuckle
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 6th, 2012 at 3:59:54 PM permalink
Mandalay Bay. Early evening, not busy. 5 guys in
suits go to the empty roulette table next to me. They
all buy in for $20 in $1 roulette chips. What got my
attention was they stacked all 100 chips on number
20, a number that had some meaning to them. 100
chips is a tower, it got a lot of attention.

Dealer spins, ball falls into number 20. Those 5 guys,
all around 30, went crazy. Yelling and high fives and
hugs and jumping up and down for at least a minute.
They had each won $700 on the very first bet of their
stay in Vegas for some real estate convention.

They started throwing back the drinks and piling
chips all over the board for the next 30min. Two of
them pulled out after they gave half of it back, the
other three lost all the $750 and a few hundred of their
own money. One of them was getting very loud, saying
the game was rigged and he wanted to see the manager.
He started getting almost violent and his friends had
to restrain him and drag him away.

It was great entertainment. I always love seeing chumps
getting wised up..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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April 6th, 2012 at 4:25:01 PM permalink
On a similar note I used to participate in a friendly poker gathering; every now and then we'd take a half day off on Friday afternoon and go to the races. The rules for several years were you had a horse picked and if it won the first race you bought everybody Fish and Chips; it was up to you whether you hedged the "bet" with an appropriately sized wager on your horse.

Anyway one day, blow me, there was a horse called "Fish and Chips" in the first race. All but one of us, including me, bet on the horse and it duly obliged (at about 6/1). Nevertheless I'm not sure how many of us actually went away winning, probably only a few!
buzzpaff
buzzpaff
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April 6th, 2012 at 4:32:11 PM permalink
Me, my dad and a friend went to races one day. Usually first winner bought the hot dogs. Comes the 6th race, no winners yet, and we decide to each pick a horse for last. Whichever horse finished ahead of the other two, that guy had to buy. Joe had to buy as the 99 to 1 shot beat his horse by a nose. Joe was not happy !
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